He survived 25 years on Wall Street

Welcome to another Founder Wisdom Podcast. We have Evan Marks with us. I like Evan already. I've spent not even 15 minutes with him and you can see lots of overlap. He's a mental performance coach, a founder at M1 Performance Group, a keynote speaker, and he's a former hedge fund, uh, PM in New York City, of all places. So, uh, even— Evan, welcome to the podcast. Tell us a bit more about yourself, what you've been up to.

Charles, it's a pleasure to be here! You know, I was a hedge fund guy for a long time, like 25 years but now I run M1 Performance Group. It's a mental performance training group. So we work with the best of the best and how they think about things. So, we don't live in the camp of positive psychology. We live in a camp of reality but we often call it opportunistic reality. So... As I always say, I drive my people like racehorses sometimes. Like, I want the best out of them. We all live, we all have potential. My goal always is to lower interferences in their lives so they can run their game so well that the equation shifts to performance.

I love it, dude. Um, your time on Wall Street, I think last time we spoke, right, you told me, um sort of burned out of that, right? You had the pivot in your life. Let's start with that time of your life. Why did you choose Wall Street? I mean, capital of capitalism and very ambitious young guy you were. That's why I can see myself in you for sure. What was the expectation with Wall Street? What did you get out of it in the end?

So, to be honest with you, so I was an athlete. I'm a pretty decent student, but I'm an identical twin. So my twin, we went to University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, which is the incubator— it's Wharton— of all of Wall Street. We're talking about back in '94, and there were not many hedge funds. But then this guy named Stephen Cohen, who owns the Mets now, probably one of the greatest traders of all time, if not the greatest, loved my brother. So I was going JP Consulting which didn't fit my personality. And my twin was like, 'Ab, you got it all wrong. This is what we're built for. We know nothing about Wall Street. We know what risk feels like because we always like— we just— we worked since we were 12 years old. It's like we have nothing to lose. And the greatest thing about when you have nothing to lose, you have everything to gain, especially when you're young. Like, if you're, you're 32 years old Your recovery time is unbelievable. I didn't know this stuff. This is what I do for a living now. But if I was to— like, you're right, I've had so many failures after Wall Street, during Wall Street, but I had a massive recovery time. So my twin was like, you got to be doing this. So my first job ever on Wall Street was called Spear-Leeds Kellogg. They paid me $18,000 a year. By the way, people were making like $60,000, $70,000. It doesn't sound like a big amount of money now, but I was a bartender on Liberty Island, Statue of Liberty. I'm like, I'm going to make this work. And then it just started to flow. So when you think about Wall Street back in the day, there was only a couple hedge funds, not what was obviously no crypto, none of this stuff was going on, but it was a great opportunity to learn. But everything came off of one thing that I realized now as I coach people. If you can't take risk, there is no upside.

25 years, man. How did you survive 25 years on Wall Street? Is your nervous system cooked?

Well, you know, it cooked me, right? So I was 46 years old, literally almost 25 years. I started when I was 21, and I thought I had a heart attack. I moved to the burbs. I was in the city for a long time, Manhattan. And one day— and I did a whole TED Talk about this— it was a Monday. Most heart attacks happen on Mondays, by the way. I'm sitting there, top of my career, partner at a hedge fund. We're killing it, we're doing well. Obviously there's always obstacles and hurdles, and I, I'm— I go down. I think it's over.

You're gonna die. Like, die.

I hit the ground so fucking hard— if I can curse on this podcast— oh yeah, of course, it was over. So now I have two daughters who are 4 and 6, bought this gorgeous home in the burbs. I'm the guy who's gonna make this all happen, and it's over. I see a neurologist and they go, too many concussions, way too many concussions. So much chronic stress at 46, and, and your childhood trauma, which I don't know how you calculate. They go, the gray matter in your brain is so— it is a disaster. So I love my mom. Like, what do you want me to do? You go, why don't you become a coach or a teacher? I'm like, seriously? I've got massive bets all over the place. I don't have time to do this. But it was one of those moments, Charles, where I'm like, you know what, man? I'm not immune to risk. I've always made big bets. So why don't I bet on myself? So now, 8 years later, I still invest in, and I invest in companies, but why can't I shift how I think about things? And just change my identity, which is incredibly hard to do, which is incredibly hard to do. But what happens though, it doesn't happen overnight, right? We don't set out to say, I'm gonna go change my identity, but it becomes a step at a time. All right, this is not working for me. I, I have— I'm— people always like, you had so much courage, Evan. I'm like, I didn't have courage. I had to do this.

It was survival.

It was survival, right? So either I can go in a fetus position and say, I'm done, and just really shrink, or say, you know what, what if, what if I've always wanted to become a coach? I was such a student of how people thought and think and behave. I— this is not even a pos— it's not even imposter syndrome. I've never done it. What happens if I go back to school at 46?

Holy shit.

I've worked with the greatest minds ever, the greatest risk-takers ever. I'm an athlete. Imagine if I could understand how people think and understand their interferences and help them.

What a question. Um, before we get to that, where did the concussion come from? Uh, what was the sport and what's your trauma? It's like 3 different questions, but need to get that off my mind.

So a lot of it was sports related, but my, my senior at Penn— I went to school, University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia— I got hit by 2 guys on a bicycle, drilled into a trolley rail. On life support, whole body done. My twin brother comes in. My brother went to school with me, and people like, he's— it's over for this kid. Oh my God, I look like Alf. You're too young, but people know what Alf is. Like, I look like an alien. And the mass— it was a massive concussion. So now I'm thinking like, well, this is— I didn't realize it happened. I obviously realized it happened to me. But I didn't realize the side effects would last so long. First of all, blowing my knees out twice as an athlete, identity crisis, boom, 15 years. But not understand the trauma that happened to me. Meanwhile, being raised by a single mother, my oldest brother's handicapped, my dad's been married 4 times, he's a crack addict. So we're trying to figure things out, living in a beautiful town on Long Island, and we think it's normal to work at 12 years old. As busboys, right? Getting a polo shirt was like the greatest thing of all time. And we're athletes and students, so people was like, how does this happen, man? What a bag of different things, right? So it's the community you keep. We had some wonderful people around us. Obviously you can't do this alone.

What a unique background, right? Like, what did the Wall Street colleagues think of you when you arrived there? You were like already a stud back then, right? Like, you already had that.

Well, you know, it's one of these things where like, I, I, like, you're 32 years old, right? And I can say right now, and don't think it's— you don't know shit yet, right? You've had companies, you've lost companies, you've made money. But it's one of these things when you're not curious enough to understand, because, because what happens is that when you think you know everything, you have such a massive fragile ego, right? Because you're trying to prove something, trying to validate everything of something you've lost in your life, right? We'll get into your past, but something happened in your past where you're trying to fill a void. Obviously, I didn't have a dad. Blew my knees out. I was an athlete, right? Now that's gone. But in the— back in those days, I just keep going, bury everything and keep moving, getting bigger. But we know now that it's like Chernobyl. It comes out somewhere somehow. So if you're not being honest with yourself about what the fuck is going on It's coming. I don't know if it's going to come this year, next year, in 3 months, 5 months, but might as well just acknowledge it. So the people I serve are the highest caliber people in this country, in this world, the greatest fund managers, the greatest CEOs. But imagine if I say to you, Charles, I'm like, you know, you're 32 years old, right? You've had all these companies. I could do my own due diligence. I go, a lot of them have failed. I don't need to see what you're but it is. I fucking already know it. What is holding you back? And imagine having the opportunity to be honest with me. You obviously have balls to do what you do, right? You're— I'm talking about you personally. You're a great connector. You have a great podcast. But to think you have no interferences, that's what— that I think it hurts your growth.

Oh yeah, I mean, it's always working.

Tell me about your past.

Yeah, my past. Hmm, I am— yeah, long versions, like, or medium version, I'd say popular kid, uh, middle school, high school less popular, retreats and video games, uh, later in alcohol, porn, uh, girls. Scaled out of that, fortunately discovered entrepreneurship, which is my, still my current identity, right? Like founder, travels the world with wife for what, for 3, 4 years while building my businesses. COVID hits, now stable here in Oaxaca, 5 dogs, a daughter changed my life. I didn't thought it would do so, but yeah, it's crazy having a kid, lovely little human being, Chip on my shoulder for sure, right? Like kid from Quebec, cut the tallest blade grass there, right? So quickly had to get the fuck out of there.

Wasn't accepted, you weren't validated?

Oh no.

What did your parents do?

No, and just to tell you, right? Like my first business, I was serving realtors and they, yeah, they tried to shut me down various times, right? 'Cause realtors all talk to one another, talk shit about my business. Almost destroyed it, caused a bunch of chargebacks, right? And that caused like great distress in me. It's like traveling the world and seeing people trying to burn my business while I turn my back. Even my first business, my nootropic business, I was serving students and we had like, uh, people writing hit pieces about us. So Quebec is like always cut the—

I love it, by the way. Those are the best.

Yeah, today look at it. I think the viewers don't know what a hit piece is, though.

A hit piece is literally take— like, I have a twin brother lives in Sydney, Australia. So when you do well, the media will hit it, put a hit piece on you.

Yeah, and that's a good sign nowadays. I'm like more mature, right? But back then it was like, dude, you're trying to kill my baby, like step the fuck back, right? It's like— and this deep knot in my chest, right, of like anxiety and not knowing if we're gonna make it or not, and someone attacking me and backstabbing me. So I also had people in my business trying to backstab on me various times. I mean, it's human nature, right? I think as soon as you have success, you're going to get adversity. I don't know what's taking me back. I feel a bunch of things are blocking nowadays. Obviously, I'm not perfect still. I have an addict's personality, right? Like, um, uh, definitely was an alcoholic from, uh, I don't know, 16 to 20, right? I have over 200 blackouts, which is insane. You talk about concussion, right? Like, I blacked out 200 times on alcohol. Um, ended up in hospital.

Let me ask you a question, Charles, though. So you obviously took a long walk with yourself, right? Yeah, a very long walk, right? Yes, across continents. But what happens if I told you that— all right, man, we all have interferences, we all have a story— but what if I told you like The more you can acknowledge that, how you feel, right? What's behind these emotions? And sometimes we actually— I'm 54, I don't know half of them yet. But the fact that you can verbalize how you feel about things, and it's not a weakness, it's a massive strength.

Yes.

Given your drive, right? And by the way, fear doesn't drive. Motivation. Fulfillment and certain things do. Like, you want to be better than when you were yesterday. Like, obviously you want to be better than your father, your mother, whatever it may be. But the more you're able to vocalize things— we know, like, I still, I have a tough time remembering my childhood, right? I'm a coach. I'm a mental performance coach, but I'm getting better at it.

Interesting.

So if I said to you, I said, you know, Charles, I give you permission to feel whatever you want, but my game is always creating mental space, right? You want to be an entrepreneur, right? I own 50 companies. Well, like, I'm a big boy. I'm 54 years old. I know what 50 companies means, right? I'm not a moron, right? But the thing is, you're looking for validation. I'm good enough to play in this big league. All right, maybe let's say you're not yet. Right, maybe there's still a lot of player development involved, but the fact that you're willing to get on the field and play this game is massive. Yeah, it's massive. We know this is not linear game. I've had so many businesses that have failed, so I've invested in so many shit shows, but it wasn't a shit show, but the guys who were doing it weren't shit shows. It just didn't work. It was the wrong time, wrong strategy. The human entrepreneur said it's all right to be wrong.

Yeah, yeah. No, it's not a right to be stuck with these super athletes you work with. I mean, me, I come from a weird place. One, I've always valued lifestyle, right? And I've always The fun lifestyle is like living a good life and being happy and taking care, taking care of yourself first before you think that money is going to take up— or, you know, these entrepreneurs that put all of their money in their business and then they're never happy, and then they're like, oh, money doesn't change anything. I always had made a nice life for myself, right? Like at 19, 20, I was traveling the world. I always took care of my happiness first.

But you're 19 and 20 though, you don't know shit yet. You just don't though, right? Consider this, right? I'll give you a little something, right? I'm 54. Your prefrontal cortex, your decision-making brain, doesn't stop evolving until you're 25. So the fact you think you know is an interference, right?

Yes and no.

Yeah, this is why we're having this conversation.

The thing is, well, I wish I wouldn't have gone in like the typical education system. I think because of that, yes, you're somewhat right, but I think someone can live various lifetimes and be very mature early in life. I was always a philosopher, so I've asked a lot of questions. And while most at 19 and 20, I feel I lived most more than like 3 lives than most people would, like even at 50, uh, in a 9-to-5 job. Impossible in a 9-to-5 job. I think most humans just go through life without living much. That's one of my— at least.

But by the way, maybe there's arrogance in there, maybe there's arrogance in there, but a little bit. No.

Yeah, yeah.

But listen, you can live a life, you're 50, and, and been whatever you've done over and over again, right? So that means experience doesn't mean that you know everything. I didn't assume you do at the right age, at 20 or 30. You were sadly mistaken. Like, if you were a client of mine, right, you said, Ev, I'm a polymath, but I'm, I'm not comparing with you because you've lived like— no, no, no, no, I'm saying in general though, in general. In general, the only way you know is a couple things, is curiosity. And curiosity in its essence is information seeking.

Yes.

And only the way you grab information to seek it is to know you don't know.

Yeah. But most humans never seek that and are not curious. That's my point. Like 90% of humans are NPC-like.

But when you think you do know, you know what you know, you've now shut down all channels.

Yeah, but even nowadays I'm super duper obsessed. Like, even this channel here, that's like a new obsession of mine. That's me reading shitloads of books and being like, this is not good enough, let's have an AI produce a bunch of biographies so that I can always learn from more people every day, right?

So experience stuff, dude. I'm telling you, go experience things. You can read all the books you want. AI is one of the greatest things to shorten time, right?

Yeah, I've experienced a lot.

Go assume, you know, listen, obviously at 32, I mean, like, you're having this great podcast. What you've done is amazing. I'm not here to dismiss anything. What I am saying is go look.

Oh, I've already—

I've learned from books. Go experience everything, but have a moment of reflection.

Always ultra races are my favorite tool for that.

Say again?

Ultra races. So I, I run these 100-kilometer-plus races in the mountains.

Joe DeSena, Spartan Races, these guys are lunatics. I agree with you. Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, these guys are always pushing, but these guys are learners. They're constant learners.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's, it's like an ultra running trip, uh, is like definitely a couple of ayahuasca trips, you know, and, uh, do these like every now and then and just go out long runs by myself in the mountains with my own thoughts, right, without podcasts, you know, like just being around, sitting around with yourself in pain, right? In pain is an important factor. Uh, did that a lot. But my point was like, the folks you work with, very high performers, most of the time I think they've achieved high performance because of trauma and they didn't spend time with themselves trying to figure themselves out. And that's possibly the clients you work with, and that's that I do agree with you that these guys usually have achieved a state, but at some point they're gonna blow up. A good example, by the way, great, great comment and observation.

So I just did a TEDx talk in January about post-traumatic growth, right? It's called PTG. An amazing subject. So we can run two different ways. We could sit in trauma and ruminate in it, and we get really stuck, right? Not to dismiss it. Or we can acknowledge it and say, you know what, this happened to me, not because of me, it happened to me, but I have a choice here. I can feel whatever I want to feel and start to choose different behaviors, right? So you may have been a victim, but you no longer live in victimhood. And that starts expansion. Because first of all, things have happened to everybody at different degrees. I'm not here to dismiss anybody's tragic trauma. I'm not here to dismiss any great trauma, but imagine if you're able to survive and wake up the next day and say, wait a second, I'm still here. I've gone through this. What am I really capable of doing? So you're right, Charles Cormier, the guys that I— the people that I serve If I told you the stories of these people and their names, you'd be like, no way, Evan, they went through this.

I'd be 100% yes, I understand, because this channel down here, uh, all I study high performers as a living, just like you, and they all have a trauma. They— it's all— it's always a common story. Um, and the beauty here, I mean, these folks the super athletes and the celebrities, they're not always upfront with their traumas, but my AIs do a good job at identifying what was the inflection point. They all have a chip on their shoulder.

It doesn't have to be AI, Charles. This conversation alone nails it down perfectly. Everybody has trauma. Right now, if you wanted to decide what Baskin-Robbins flavor it is, that's up to you. Then you want to judge people, go, you do you. But the real question is, how do you use it, right? It— there's a true wisdom to everything, is that this happened.

Yeah.

Now we have a choice. We have a choice to move on, to reflect, not ruminate, right? Because rumination keeps you stuck. Because what rumination is, in essence, is like This happened to me. I can't believe this happened to me. Blame, shame, all this stuff. And it's very normal behavior, but we have a choice of how we behave. So when you look at the greatest athletes, the greatest business people, the greatest thinkers, what separates them from everybody else?

Is this trauma for them and not against them? And by the way, that's an exception. Most people do not do that. They let it happen to them. Forgiveness is you.

We don't have to forget, but you're allowed to forgive. Yeah, right now we're getting a little, you know, obviously philosophical, but like, let go of the rope. The greatest overachievers, they always say fear motivates people, and it shouldn't be a motivation. It should be fulfillment of what I'm capable of doing. Fear sometimes separates you from who you want to be. And where you want to go. You think about what I'm just saying right now, and I'd love the comments on that one.

Yeah, I, I also feel having a chip on your shoulder can help, right?

Like, if you know why you have a chip.

Yes, I think that David, right, like, uh, Choose Your Enemy Wisely's book is, uh— I'm not saying that should be, because it's like, it's like fuel, right? So most of your fuel, and it's It's different times. Sometimes it may help for you to use that fast-burning, uh, chip-on-your-shoulder fuel.

Well, define success to me then.

Huh?

What is success?

Yeah, I already, already have success on my end. So do you? I think—

no, no, no, no, no, you don't. I'm saying you don't.

I think it's a different definition, success. I've spoken to so many people, but mine is Happiness, right? Like general happiness, waking up happy and just not being stressed. The lack of cortisol, to be precise. Having dopamine, serotonin in my blood.

Scientific books, by the way. Go ahead, give me some more. Uh, be real with me. Be, be authentic.

Uh, just, um, my cortisol bullshit. Well, it's just scientifically, if I feel cortisol, I'm not gonna be happy. It's like my heart rate goes up, respiration goes up, I feel all tense. I feel fight or flight, right? And that's not success for me. Success is, like you said, fulfillment's a keyword, right?

A synonym to that. What makes you laugh?

My newsletter. Shout out to founderhumor.com. Talking to people like you, cracking jokes, spending time with my baby, family, friends, and talking, thinking about the ridiculous things that happen to me sometimes and turning the negative into positive. Oh, so some humor.

Which is my newsletter. By the way, right, that's like to have a little— to have a little like a little laugh, right?

And connecting and deep conversation like this one, right? That makes me happy.

Well, like, but happiness all of a sudden, like, yeah, I'll send you a text and it's bad. Okay, so now you're happy, I send you a text, you look at me like, F dude, I gotta go, I'm very sad. So happiness, sadness, just an emotion. In my opinion, where do you find joy and fulfillment, right? And joy and fulfillment is not linear, but like, like for me as a coach, right, I spent 25 years on Wall Street. I had success. It was not fulfilling at all. I told my wife when I was 35 years old, I'm like, Jordan, I'm committing spiritual suicide, right?

Yes.

Just so everybody could live their own lives and we can be affluent and all these things. I'm letting you know that who I am as a— at a core is being burnt.

Yes, and your health as well, right? My health also.

So then all of a sudden, 10 years later, regret knocks on the door and they call me out. So am I making as much money as I did when I was 32, 35? Not yet. But when I wake up in the morning and I get to speak to you and service people I service and do speaks and speeches and, and this and that and all these things, oh man, I don't care about a house in Nantucket anymore. I care about also Charles Cormier is going to call me up tomorrow and say, 'Ev, I want another chat with you because what you just said to me for some reason sparked an interest in me, right? Because remember, coaches are influence, presence, listening, and questions. Like, dude, you said something to me that really got me going. I want to have a great conversation with somebody. Yeah, to me that's everything, a full honest conversation, bringing your whole self, right?

Which I think in Wall Street is not the case. You need to play a character that you're not, and that causes a Huge rift, spiritual rift.

Charles, you're allowed to fail, right? Like, you're doing all these great things, right? I'm not here to point you out, but I'm just saying in general.

Yeah, failure is my middle name.

We're gonna fail a little bit, right? The fact that you're putting yourself in a position to see what it looks like, in my opinion, in my experience— it's just me, right? It's not general.

Wow, thanks, dude.

Now what happens when we get rejected? We get— listen, you, you have a pocket. You're putting yourself constantly— you're getting judged. How do we handle judgment? How do we handle these things? Sometimes we put ourselves up for judgment to get judged and fail. People like, that's crazy, but it's not. So there's a bigger conversation. So we know there's massive potential.

Yeah, dude, I love it.

Setting us up with these interferences that, that We got to know better. We have to, we have to, I don't even think it's right English. We have to better understand.

Yes.

Because performance equals potential minus interferences.

I love that, dude. Thanks for being on. We're going to do round 2, obviously. When, uh, where can people find out more about you, Evan?

Well, I appreciate it, Charles. So it's m1performancegroup.com. My team has great insights. We have great interviews just like this one. We also have something coming out in November. If you, if you work in finance, you're a trader, or you want to understand risk better, it's called the M1 Mental Trading Academy, which you can find on our website. Also starts in November. It's our second cohort. So, you know, that's what we do. Yeah, but we're in the game of understanding how people think, and we are in the game of behavior. That is it. I love it.

That was Evan and Charles