How doing hard stuff boosts your founder mindset with Trev

So Trev ran a 21km half marathon that I gifted him, and he ran it with a shark on his head, and he hasn't. Was that like your longest distance ever? The 21k?

Maybe. Maybe. I ran an 18k cross country, like, obstacle course thing when I was, I think, 32. And then that was. That was nine years ago. So I haven't done any. Like, I've done some 10Ks, a bunch of 10Ks, and I've done a couple 15, but never anything as long as 21, I don't think so.

It's like running is one of my greatest mental hacks. Like, me, what I do usually when I run, especially long distance, I listen to brainwash type of content. Do you feel you've. You've got, like, any added mental strength after that? Like, do you feel any difference? What, what lessons have you learned from that little run?

What lessons have I learned this for? A question. My wife was mad because when she did a 21k, she spent like three months training up to it.

Yeah.

And it was just, you went, hey, Trev, I've got this ticket that my brother doesn't want. Do you want it? And I went and ran. And she's like, you didn't need any training. You did a better time. I also ran faster than she did. Her 21k was two and a half.

Right.

It was like 233 or something. And so faster than her, no training. And I was like, I rode my bike there and back also. So I had a, like a 15k, which is a short little bike ride. A 15k bike ride there and back with the shark on my head because I didn't have any place else to put it.

Okay, well, first explain the shark thing. Like, where does the idea come from? Because sometimes I see crazy people wearing outfits when they do these things, and I kind of don't understand them. I'm like, dude, so what's the logic behind that?

So when I moved to Montreal, I joined a company called Unito, which is a work kind of synchronization to a work task synchronization tool. And they ran every week up and down Montreal from downtown Mount Montreal. And in the middle of winter, like, it was legit. There'd be snow and crap going on, and we go. And so I bought a Cthulhu hat with a whole, like, tentacle to hang off the front to run in. And then we'd go up the mountain and back down. I'd have all this ice kind of cake down to the front of my Cthulhu mask. But it kept my face when I was fine with it. Everybody else hated it. And when we were getting ready to do the 10K as a company, the CEO said, you are forbidden from wearing your Cthulhu mask. And I don't know why, but my mother had sent me that shark. It's actually a costume for a two year old. It's like, it's got armholes for a little two year old. And so my mom had sent me that the week before, and I went, you know what? I'm not allowed to wear the octopus. But he didn't say I couldn't wear a shark. And so that was in 20, I think maybe 17. 20. 2016. In 2016. And so then I just. Whenever I run the 10K, I wear that shark.

Just what it can, cannot get weirder. That's why I like you, man. You're like such a weird person and you, you don't like, make workarounds around, like, your personality. So what did you learn out of that? You know, like, do you think it can be a good mental hack? Because me, if. If like a founder, the normal, I don't know, Silicon Valley founder would ask me stuff, you know, and like, what's your top five hacks? I cannot really give him business hacks that would be that useful to him, but I can talk to him about relationships. I can talk to him about doing hard shit like that. I can talk to him about doing retreats, for example, and biohacks to actually add to their existing business mental model. So what? Well, do you think it's. It can be a good hack? Like, let's say that next steps, your buddy Charles buys you, like a marathon. Do you think that would add more tools to your existing mindset?

So I do think anybody who, who runs knows eventually you will bonk.

Yep.

And I, I did a better job this time managing energy levels that I have before. So, like, I had granola bars in my pocket, and at the halfway point in the run, they give you energy goop, which, by the way, that's just.

Yeah. And it will fuck up your stomach mostly if you're not used to it.

Okay, well, I drink four or five cups of coffee a day, so it didn't particularly screw up my stomach. That said, it was revolting, but like that. But still at like kilometer 18, I was just like, I'm done. Like, give up. And having to say, okay, one, look, you're three kilometers from the end. Sack up, princess. But two, getting past the moment where you're like, I can't go any further. That is in its core what an entrepreneur must do.

Right, right, right. No, it's so hard that point. Also I like the public accountability of it. You know, like I called you on LinkedIn for that and it's like, oh, you can't disappoint yesterday. So first, okay, what you just mentioned about the non training part of it. Me, I like it that way. Who's gonna fucking spend one hour per day for God knows how long training? Like we don't have fucking time as entrepreneurs. Me, I've been hacking my weight trip since forever. Same from the, for the Ironman training. Right. I don't have two hours or three to spend training every day. So I've been hacking it through hits. True intelligent nutrition and so forth and just piecing trainings throughout my schedule. So good for you on that. And also I like the, the challenge of someone just like sticking up in your face and just like, okay, now it's, it's bought. You don't have any more excuses and thank God that you didn't have as much excuses of as my beloved brother. But glad that you accepted it. And I think it's, it's one of the best scenarios to just have it like okay, it's, it's there, it's in one week. I think anyone can do a half marathon. I think that you could also do a marathon, just that it would be more painful. And I wouldn't recommend that you do a 16k couple of days before marathon. Right. That was, I mean that was a cool move from a mental level, but from a physical level that sixteen gate like busted your knees and, and so forth.

I wanted to do it on Monday and then my wife was like, well we can't do it on Monday, we can do it on, on Thursday. And I was like, right, I guess I'll do it on Thursday.

Yeah, and lots of recovery in between. And you could like, we could talk about some therapies that you could do. Like if you're going to do that or simply run on a softer surface like grass, for example. It also makes it harder for some of your muscle. But what the next thing I have to say basically is that yesterday I started training for my 10k swim, which is in Cancun, which is in three weeks, right. And I found myself in a pool against a brown whale, which is a big fat Mexican swimming next to me. And they, they always keep up, you know, these. I'm not, not sure like how or why but like this guy keep has like 30 body fat, you know, big belly. And he still kept up with me for 1 hour 30. We did 2.5 kilometer together. Um, and, and I, I, I wanted to fist bump, bump him at the end and he was like unsure. I think he was in competing mode, which is cool, right? But at the beginning yet I haven't Swam in like six or 12 months and I was like shit, yeah, like I'm gonna keep up with it. And the, the point I want to bring is kind of ego. I think ego, like it can bring you to, to nice places. I think it can bring you to surpass yourself. But like, yeah, minute 10, dude, like I was out of breath and swimming is, is like somewhat of torture, right? I'm a bit claustrophobic. And we were like two with this fat guy in one microlane. It wasn't like super deep as well. So like at minute 10 I was like, man, this is stressful, you know, and when the stress kicks in, you start breathing like shit and so forth, which is basically demon. So I'm having this, this 10km swim like soon enough. But it's always like these, these major mental downloads that you get in that case that I didn't give, give up after 10 minutes. I didn't stop swimming, right? And funnily enough that's because of ego. So I see, I see a lot of people like talking shit about ego, but I think that ego is one of the greatest gift out there to actually adopt mental models. What do you think about that?

So ego is interesting. I, I have spent what probably 38 years of my 41 having to grapple with the fact that because I'm three standard deviations out on, on IQ, it is really easy to be an arrogant a hole all the time and be like, well I'm right because I'm smarter than you. And one, no, that's not true. Although it's easy to convince yourself that is, I would say 20 year old Trevor leaned into his ego and his arrogance and said because I'm likely to be right, everyone should do what I say. And 41 year old Trevor grapples with the fact that one, even if I'm right about something doesn't mean I'm the only right and people should be allowed to and encouraged to find and solve their problems on their own. And two, when you are right, it pays you very little to strut around and point out how right you were right to everybody. And so ego is, if you bind your ego up in being better, being faster, stronger, whatever, it can drive you in a way that like the strongest emotions to make you change tend to be ones that are mixed blessings. Right. Ego can drive you to change. Spite can drive you to change. Anger can drive you to change. Also love and duty and responsibility can drive you to change too. But like comfort is never what drives you to change. Right. Being happy with everything is not when you're going to change what's around you. And so ego is a lash that you can whip yourself and others with to make things different. You can also make yourself extremely unpleasant when you do.

Right. Just that I've been through the ego less journey lately in the last couple of years, more heart centered and so forth. And these long ass retreats, I went to another of these a couple weeks ago and they're all about like not having ego kind of. So that's the other end of the spectrum. But I, I think that to do good you actually need ego to, to evolve. Anyway, that, that's an interesting topic. What about like your next steps in, in terms of endurance events? Like do you think you'll do a 30 do you'll do it a 40? Like do you think this is an upgrade for you? Like a guy that's very cerebral and may not be looking at other aspects of life like biohacking or running these hard events, you think these other fields, these other areas, do you think they can bring value to your business self?

I don't know. So one thing that people talk about they find of benefit when you do an endurance event is at some point you can't listen to music or audiobooks anymore. Your brain's not there. You're, you've moved past the point where you're taking that information in and you suddenly you just are right? You've gotten past every other level of your brain and you're just.

Goggins is screaming at you. You know, he makes it pretty goddamn clear. That's what I like about Goggins. You know, he's kind of a simpleton and that the things that he says are very simplistic even when you're in great pains. And it's like a wake up call. Because yes, I do agree that sometimes it's kind of hard to assimilate new information if you're in high levels of pain and you're really in this primalistic state. But that's why I listen to these Goggins stay hard videos

in my experience, which is not as extensive as yours in this way. When you reach, when you've gotten past that, your body says stop and you go, no, and you keep going. You don't. Your head empties out. All you can do now is exist in this moment as you push. And for some people, it can be really hard to get to where the head's quiet, where the brain isn't pushing at you. In my case, I joke with my wife years ago. I learned how to meditate back when I was in high school. And one of the first things you do to meditate is reach empty mind. And I reach that point, and then I just never filled my mind up again. I've been an empty mind for 25 years is the joke I tell my wife. And so for me, it's not particularly hard to reach that quiet place. I can just choose to do it. I know that's strange. It pisses my wife off something fierce because she does meditate and has to put tremendous effort into quieting her mind down. Whereas when she says, hey, Trevor, what are you thinking? And I say, nothing. That's not me being evasive. That's usually just true.

My wife also asked me that. And yet, like, when I look at blank stare. Well, except moments that I'm like, genuinely stressed, you know, which don't happen often. It's like me thinking about nothingness. Yeah. And yeah, it depends on the time, the place and time. You know, like moments in which, like, my business has been burning, when I would stare from a distance, would probably being somewhat anxious. Moments like, oh, shit, what's going to happen? But that never really happened. Often, I think the brain, it's kind of seasonal as well. Well, you've. You had a very long season of you being able to shut down. I think I'm in one of those seasons nowadays, but not having any voice when I meditate is, is, yeah, it's quite hard. Yeah. We all have different brains, different circuitry, and in tough physical events, yes, sometimes I do reach a point in which I'm meditating. So yesterday in the pool, it took probably like a good 45 minutes of me to just like, letting the body do its thing. Because most of the time, and in most scenarios, you just let the body or the brain do its thing, you know, you don't want to intervene and have the brain stress out that, oh, shit, what if, what if, what if that, that brain is such a useless piece of shit most of the time. Always. Yeah. In a marathon is like, oh, where's the next sign that will set? Say, like, what kilometer am I at? You know? No, yeah, that is total uselessness. Just keep on running, you know? Just keep on running and you don't even need to look at the. The finish line. You. All you need to do is kind of meditate while running. And these are my best runs. You know, when I go to the park and I just listen to some nice music. I've been trying a technique lately which is looking at nature. You know, I'm running on the track here and I just look at trees from a distance and the mountains and the clouds. I don't even need to look at what's in front of me because it's a track, you know, so it won't. There won't be any holes or anything. And last time I went from a 10k, I probably meditated at least actually. Yeah, I did a 20 and a 30 cape also and I meditated probably 80 of the time which is pretty fun, right? That means like 80 of the run. It's like 0 pain. And the. The remaining 20 is like probably 10 pain. While I've. I've been doing some marathons on the 150 pain which is like gut distress and like. Yeah, you know like when you're gut hurts it's. It's like. Yeah, it's distress. Your mind thinks you're gonna die, you're gonna yourself. Which I actually did also in Serbia for the record. But yeah, I think that it's a good way to hardwire yourself and to. To teach your brain to not to behave, you know, in some situations. Well, nowadays I have less employees, like less drama. Not sure if we could make like a more. More money, more problem or less employees, less drama type of expression. But I think, I think I, I think it's an essential toolbox tool to have in your toolbox kind of evolve as an entrepreneur, I guess. Yeah, that's pretty much the, the episode today because I want to talk about the AI stuff but we can, we can leave that for, for the next one. But yeah, who knows man? Like I guess the next step is. Is you doing a, a 30k a trail. 30k trail are really fun.

I don't like trail running because I have such crap balance and it's easy for me to fall on my face. Even when we would run up Montreal which is barely a trail. I would not infrequently on the run down end up base planning.

Right. Montreal is tough also it's pretty steep a trail. Well, there's various flat ish trail. But what's cool about trails is that it. It's also more fun for the brain. It's more natural because like, in the end, we're just like monkeys running after a prey or something. That's like how the brain interprets what you do. And then you find food, you know, like, which is you munching on that trail bar. But there's more presence, there's better oxygen, you know, like, some people like urbanism. I don't. I love trees, you know, and green and, and fresh oxygen. So they're more fun these, these trails. And obviously, you need to have trail shoes. These are good shoes. And then, yes, you need to go slower. I can remember Spartan race in which, like, going downhill. I, I, yeah, it's like my ankle, it rolled twice in, like, 10 minutes. And the second time I thought it was broken. So I thought, okay, here goes my race after, like, 10 kilometers. Because I was just, like, going all out, you know, like on my downhills, which was really dumb. But, yeah, the body's resilient as well, but. And trails that, they're way more fun than running on pavement. Plus, you don't destroy your knees. Right?

That's fair. That's fair. I. I did break my left big toe on the first kilometer of a Spartan race in Krakow a long, long time ago, and then ran the whole rest of the race. I didn't even know I'd broken it.

They have Spartan race in Poland?

Well, it's called the Runmageddon, but it's the same idea. It is like, the first 2km were run through a stream, and then we had to go, like. I mean, at one point we ran through fire or we had to swim through two dumpsters full of ice water. The end of it was they were hanging actual live electrical wires, and you had to run through the electrical wires. Like, it just, it was. It was messed up, man.

Yeah. Like, these brands, they're kind of famous for, like, being money holes. Spartan Raised founder Joe Senna, which I read all of his books, he's quite public about. Yeah. The company breaking even and not making a profit. Events business, they really much suck as well. Like, during COVID Yeah, it was so hard. So I'm not sure if we should talk about Spartan Race, but we should certainly talk for these last three minutes about the Ironman Group, which is probably one of the most expensive brands in the world. Why? And what's the difference with Spartan Race? Spartan Race, Yeah, it's like Spartan type of brand, like, really men and, and so forth. But Iron Man Group, they acquired, like, also some of the best ultra racing brands in the world last year. Ultramoblanc, which is like the, the most famous ultra race in the world. One of the toughest as well. I interviewed a crazy guy. I need to send you that podcast. Hk, I think was his name. He did that one in like a 10 day, 300 kilometer race. You really need to listen to that one. But anyway, Ironman Group, it's prestigious and it's like boldness. For example, me, every time I would see an Ironman logo when I was younger or even before I was an Ironman myself, it, it's, it signifies prestige. Right. A bunch of humans have Iron man tattoos on them. I would say like at least 20 of Iron Man. They, they have it as a logo. So imagine how much that is worth, you know?

Yeah, that's true.

So it's like, I think I know somebody else.

I know somebody else does Iron Man's regularly. I think he does have an Iron man tattoo on him.

Yeah. So imagine the brand of that. That's a brand, you know, that's like worth something and you have it on you and you promote it all the time and like vice versa. I don't think there's a lot of Spartan tattoos out there, but I'm estimating that, yeah, this Iron man brand is probably worth at least like 2 to 3 billion.

Could well be.

This is crazy, right? But it's not cash flow companies. I mean, they do like money through partnerships and so forth. It's a shitty company to run. Well, it must be nice to just be CEO of Ironman's really prestigious but very cool brand. What, what do you have to close off, close off this podcast because I need to go take a pee.

What do I have? So I will definitely run another 21k. I'm not sure if I'll do a 30 or a full marathon. I think it is useful to an entrepreneur to consider. Right. What is your limit and how do you get past? Doesn't have to be a 5k or a 21k or a 300k. It doesn't have to be a physical race. I think every entrepreneur needs to be comfortable with finding their limit and then figuring out how to go further.