🤰 i'm definitely hiring a doula now

Welcome to another founder Wisdom Pod with Bianca Sprague. She's founder at Bebomia Inc. She's an activator at CEO and she's also the CEO of Baby and Me Fitness. She has been in the baby industry for quite a while now. And I. That got me interested, you know, because it's not an industry that I'm familiar with and that I have information on. So we're going to discuss about that. Today is going to be fun. This podcast is brought to you by my podcasting agency. It's called podb.com if you want to start your own podcast, scale your own podcast, or be invited to a bunch of podcasts, you can go to podbuyer.com and I can help you out with that. Janka, welcome to the pod. Tell me a bit more about yourself and about Bebo Mia.

Oh, thank you for having me. Yeah. So I've been working in the reproductive health and justice space for. It's of kind getting close to 20 years. Good thing I look so young. And I started as a solopreneur after the birth of my daughter, and I realized I was actually on a med school track and my plan was to be an ob gyn. And after my daughter was born, I realized the relationship to birth that the doctor had was really cold, was like, definitely not what I imagined working in the birth field. And so, um, when Gray, that's my daughter, was about six weeks old, I went back to school and I specialized as a birth worker or a doula. And I started serving folks one on one. And I realized there was so many gaps in the education. The. The courses that were available were like weekend crash courses, which is just like, not acceptable for working in a medical field. And and so I started growing my practice really rapidly. And so I was training other birth workers to support my clients with me because I had such a large client load. And Babel Mia was born after that. And then after about five years of having the largest agency in Toronto, I started training. Like, I had a really comprehensive training program. And so other people started writing to us saying, I can't get to Toronto, but I want to take your training. And so we took a big leap in 2010 and we moved exclusively online, which was just, I know now after, like, especially post Pandemic, we're all pretty, you know, familiar with the digital online space and learning and doing pretty much everything in the digital space by the time there was nothing. So we had the clunkiest WordPress plugin that we designed ourselves to deliver our Courses and we built this really incredible community in the online space. A couple years after that, I bought Babyme Fitness, which was like, I thought it was real cool. Anytime anyone called me, I'd be like mergers and acquisitions because thought it was really funny. So. And it was Canada's longest pre and postnatal fitness center and training organization. So it merged really, really nicely with Babel Mia and all the work that we were doing. And then, you know, the older I got and the more births I attended and I saw the dis discrepancy in care and the, you know, declining outcomes for both birthers and babies, we really started focusing on the reproductive justice component, especially looking at Latin Americ Canada and the U.S. which have just like abysmal birth outcomes. And so, you know, we got really, really clear that we wanted to mobilize our birth workers. So not only did they have the most comprehensive skills training and client acquisition skills, they also were like really fired up and ready to take on these systems that are oppressing us and, you know, killing us if we even survive our births.

What's the problem with birthing? Because I'm not. Other than the wife of my brother being pregnant, I mean, that's challenging in terms of time, in terms of logistics, in terms of finances, in terms of sleep. But what, what is the pressing issue with giving birth to a child?

Yeah, I mean birth is pretty boring. It's like, you know, anatomically anatomical birth or uninterrupted physiological birth is pretty uneventful. Most people make it through pretty unscathed throughout history. Our birth outcomes are actually worse right now. So we're really proud of all our technologies and all these interventions and all these like life saving modalities that we have. But really the fact that healthcare providers are utilizing them all the time for everybody, we're seeing actually a decline in outcome. So if we look at actually the birth part of it, it's the over monitoring, over intervention, use of interventions. And this feel like this, this has to be like rushed or really interrupted as far as the birth process. I mean the reality is we give birth like how we have sex. And most people like dark, private, intimate, warm, you know, protected spaces. And so already the hormones that are needed to give birth effectively are interrupted by being in like a really cold, scary, sterile room. And if you think of doctors, they're supposed to be there like lifeguards. And if you imagined you were trying to swim in Mexico, in the beautiful sea there, and if you're trying to swim and every time you got in the Water. A lifeguard grabbed your arms and started, like, moving them for you, you would probably not be that effective at swimming. And we'd. We'd run into way more issues of people getting tired, people, you know, drowning, or, like, being pulled back. And so then lifeguards are like, how many people I saved today? I saved 5,000 people. Because they mucked around with the process for 5,000 people. But rather lifeguards watching everybody do what they do in the way that they do it, and then they jump in if there's a problem. But this has been lost because we've essentially commodified birth, right? It's a business. So if you get to use prescriptions, if you get to use interventions, that's different billing. And so everyone's kind of got this piece of the pie. But, like, no one really wanted to get in on that pie until, like, pretty modern history. Like, no one cared about women's health. And so it wasn't until this guy, Dr. Sims, he started doing, like, terrible things to enslaved women. And then he's. He took it back to England and was like, look at all this stuff we could do. We could, like, run a business with women's bodies. And he was actually kind of laughed at. He was a joke. And so it took a while, and then they caught on, and they were like, oh, this could be as medicalized as, like, any other field and create a business around it. And so we're really trying to, like, have a reclamation of birth come back. So that's like the birth process. But then when you move over to the, like, the social part of it, the social, political, you know, having a baby requires a lot of, like, rest for the birther, proper nutrition, safe housing, like, you know, and we don't have any of these things. We don't have adequate parental leave. This intensive mothering model or intensive parenting model, where you have to do everything. You have to be, like, slim, get your body back, be a good mom. Your kids have to speak all these languages, lots of lessons, clean house. And, like, Instagram is just made it so much worse because we see what a good mom looks like, and, like, it's completely unachievable. And then at the same time, we've seen a decline in how dads can show up really powerfully. And so they've kind of, like, opted out of the parental process, even if they didn't really feel like they wanted to. It's the reality. So the research is real grim, both on the process and the postpartum of what happens in the family dynamic and unpaid labor for women and mothers. And so we're really trying to grab that population who's the most impacted. That's like for Baby Omia and Babyme Fitness and teach them how to like, use their voice again and that they're doing a good job and to like ignore these parts of society that are like, telling them that they're not doing a good job and then really getting their community back on board in an effective way, including in the case of they're in a hetero relationship, including with their co parent and to like, call them back in and so that they can have a more equitable, you know, both a model for their children as well as a successful running like running a household is like running a business. And if you divide the labor and you have a really great, you know, job description and everyone's clear of what they're going to do, you're going to have a better success. And it might not necessarily be profits like a business, but it will be like joy and connection to your family and a feeling of like, worthiness at home and have at least home be a place that feels better than the rest of the world because it's real rough out there.

Yeah. Okay, so the doula at birth with the parents to help them mom give birth in a pool most of the time. Can we start with that process and the role of the doula or is there a pre role also? Does the doula show up before the birth of their child?

Yeah, that's a really great question. So doulas, I mean, some doulas do fertility work. So they'd be supporting a client who's trying to conceive. So they might be supporting them as they go through their egg retrieval or their IVF or like helping them navigate through all the medications that are recommended. So, so there are people that work exclusively in preconception, but if we're talking about birth doulas or labor doulas, they come in and I mean, we really like to do the education ahead of time because in labor is not the time to be like learning about what these medications are or like, what did you want? So like doulas support any birth. So for that might be people who are planning an operative birth, that might be people who want to have a home birth, that might be water birth or no, like it's really wherever people plan on giving birth, we want to make sure that they feel really empowered and that they practice informed consent. And informed consent is knowing the benefits, the risks, the alternatives of everything. That's recommended to them. And so a lot of times, even just the doula being like, do you want to take your pants off at birth? And they're like, what do you mean? Like, do you want to labor in your clothes? Because you don't have to take your clothes off? And that question right away. I have so many of my clients are like, oh my gosh, I feel so much better about that. I was feeling really stressed. I've been in a hospital gown before. They're really uncomfortable or I'm embarrassed, or I'd feel safer in my like tracksuit. And like you can stay fully dressed until it's time to push out your baby. And so just having them start to, you know, have those even micro wins of feeling like really autonomous and in control of their environment and the process completely changes what's happening. And I mean, I don't want anyone to take away that we're saying like nurses, midwives and doctors are like, we don't want to vilify them. They're caught up in the very same system that's made by policymakers, government, insurance providers. Like, they're, they're also in the same, you know, we're all swimming in the same water. And so rather than doing that, what we hope our clients just like stop them for a second. So if they say, why are you putting an IV in? It will actually have the doctor pause to be like, oh wait, why are we putting an IV in? Well, we put it in everyone. Well, like everyone doesn't need an iv. If somebody's having like, they don't have any plans for any of the things needed for an iv, we could stop them and then they start getting into evidence based care and not practicing practice based care. Because if we're doing the exact same birth process, like the, the process around them. Hop into the bed, let's get you on the monitors. Let's get your iv. Let's get this medication started to make it go faster. Like everybody's going to respond to it differently and not everybody needs it. And the governing bodies of the World Health Organization or In Canada, the U.S. it's ACOG or the SOGC, they're actually saying stop doing this. They keep like yelling it at the hospitals, like, you can't give everybody this medication. It's not supposed to be distributed in the way that you gu are to just everybody. And so the, they're not listening because obviously there's vested interest and all the like, we don't need to get into that. But our job is to just go in and be that gap. So that if they look at me and the doctor's like, well, everybody gets an iv. They always look at me like. And I just go, what, what did you want to ask them about that? And they're like, well, do I have to have an iv? Well, are you planning on having an epidural? No. Okay, well, you should still probably get an iv. Well, what are the risks of an iv? And all I want is my clients to have those kind of conversations because then they can escape that cascade of intervention. And the cascade of intervention always ends. Operative birth, babies in crisis and, and maybe one or both of them not surviving. And so when we know that these statistics, like we have the, we have like, I don't think birth has been this bad probably in the last 400 years right now, like since the last round of studies. Like we're back in the dark ages with our birth practices and our birth outcomes. And so all we can do is have the individual protect themselves by, you know, demanding evidence based care and using the skills of informed consent. And that's what a doula does. We're never attached to a decision like, if my clients like, give me all the drugs, I want an iv. I want to have a scheduled C section. I'm like, great, that's your birth plan. And let's make it just amazing and powerful and that you're really excited about this.

Yeah, C section I would totally avoid with the, you know, microbiome at birth. Anyway, that's, that's my personal opinion. And in water most preferably and so forth. But it's really interesting, you know, because me, my and my wife are thinking of conceiving, but obviously it's a stressful process and we're not sure why. Are you saying that we're back in the dark ages again? From what perspective? Is it from the fact that we're not having children's anymore? Is it the fact that babies are dying or not being born fully healthy or even that women are dying? Tell me a bit about that.

All of that one, all the last half. Yeah. I mean, we are seeing a decline in our birth rates because, you know, people are scared of the environment, people can't afford children. We have the highest rate of infertility in any other period of history. We have the highest rate of the inability to feed from your body or breastfeed or chest feed. All the same terms, like all of these things because of the impact of stress, of overuse, of the medications, of the constant interventions. And so here's a tiny one. So there's stages of labor. They're kind of divided up so that we can roughly track. For the person in labor, it just is one long journey. But for the people witnessing or tracking or providing health care, it's broken up into. So we can kind of reference where we are on this labor journey. And so one of the things that the World Health Organization started looking at is what happens if we shift the boundaries of these stages and phases of labor? Because what we were seeing is the highest rate of something called labor dystocia, or, like, failure to progress is kind of the slang for it, which feels really crappy for a birther to hear. Like, failure to progress. And all it means is the labor's taking too long. So they're like, we're still here, and there's not enough change for us to be happy about it. And because it's a business, right. So we need to get people out of the room. So they, like, really want to rush this process. And so the World Health Organization, maybe about five years ago, maybe six now, the pandemic really threw off time for me. They started rolling out changes, saying, well, what happens if we shift active labor, which is kind of like the second part of labor of the. Of the five? What happens if we shifted the boundary and said, anything goes as far as the rate of progress between 0 and 6 cm, but we'll really only start caring about the rate between 6 and 10 centimeters, because everyone knows 10 centimeters is kind of this end goal. But, like, lots of other stuff is happening. The baby's descending, it's rotating, the cervix is softening, it's thinning, and it's opening. So the World Health Organization looked at it, and they were like, well, all the interventions are happening under 6cm, because doctors are getting irritated by how slow that process goes. But by changing it to be like, it doesn't matter how long they take because we expect it to be unpredictable until 6, and then after that, we expect to see a more consistent dilation and progress. But. And by doing this, it would have removed probably. I think they're predicting 60% of the emergency C sections, because y' all get ready for this fun fact. Emergency C section just means that labor has started, and now we're having an operative birth. Like, sit with that for a second. You hear emergency C section, and like, a layperson would think emergency. But all it means is that we were planning on a pelvic or vaginal birth, and now we're shifting to an operative or belly birth. And, and so it would decline those, it would decline like all of these things that we muck about to make things go faster. They just wouldn't, they would know not to do it. But the hospitals still haven't adopted this shift, even though it is regulated by all the governing bodies. And by, by refusing to shift to have it be six, they're still allowing this like constant intervention. And so they're essentially trying to rush something. And it would be like trying to rush puberty or trying to rush spurt. Like the body is doing what it needs to do at the pace it needs to do it. But because we have all of these interventions and we're scared going into the hospitals, you know, especially for, for bipoc birthers. So birthers of color, the rate of which they die, depending on what state or province. So indigenous or black folks that they have, like some of them have as much as 35 times more likely to die over a white birther or their baby is most likely to die over a white baby in the first 12 months. So like parents are scared going into birth, right? And so any other animal, when it's scared, it stops laboring, it goes and hides, it makes sure its environment is safe and then it starts laboring again. But if you can't leave your hospital room, you're just like stuck there. And so that's why we're seeing like, well, let's try this, let's try this. Oh no. The baby's heart rate is crashing. Oh no. And now we're like, you know, having these birth outcomes that too many birthers and too many babies are just not surviving. So I know that was kind of a long answer, Charles, but it's really good. It's multifaceted of why this is not like why we're. We're running into these issues.

But who's dying? Like, I don't often hear about these stories. Are you talking the U.S. and Canada or in poor countries?

Oh, no, the U.S. the U.S. is comparable to many under resourced countries. It's one of. It has. Is one of the worst birth outcomes.

And so percentage died. You know, like that's so surprising.

Oh, I know it's. None of these things are really published. Like, we don't really see it in the media unless it's somebody famous. So we've recently lost an Olympian. We recently had, you know, somebody take it to the streets for, you know, we see it if people are like yelling that their loved one died. But I mean, I was with some nurses and it was. I lived in Toronto. I just moved from there, but I was out at a lunch and one of the nurses said, oh, we lost. I think she said, we lost six mums this week. And I was like, wait, what? And this is in my city where I read all the research and my. Like, I'm all over the place there. And I was like, wait, what do you mean you lost six months this week? She's like, oh, there was this bacteria. And like, everyone just kept getting it on our ward, so we had to close our ward. She was in the icu, so she. They were coming down from labor and delivery. I don't want to say what hospital. I don't say anything about this because this was from staff knowledge. And I was like, you had six deaths this week. And I went through everything, Charles, and I couldn't find these numbers anywhere. And so this stuff is happening. Like, it happens all the time. And so if you look at the. There should be new research probably by next year, because I think the last time was 2020 and 2021. But what also happened. So here's a plug for doulas. If someone's like, I don't know if I should get one. I kind of like my doctor or I have a midwife or like, whatever the narrative is that people have of why they might not choose a doula over the pandemic. Doulas weren't allowed in the hospitals, and in some hospitals, even partners weren't allowed to come in and watch their. Their loved one give birth. And so by not having doulas, they did a pre and post, like the. The time when doulas weren't allowed. And then when we were back in. So we watch things like, I check all the time. I'll be like, nobody's checked her catheter in over, you know, the X number of hours, which is the protocol of this hospital. And then they'll be like, oh, nobody's checked. And I'm like, nobody's checked. And so, like, I keep track of everything like this for my clients as well as kind of like whistleblow when I need to and, like, use my body as a shield in other times. But the. The stats of before and after, I'm happy to send them over to you so that you can. You can post them. They were abysmal when we didn't have witnesses in the. When. When the healthcare practitioners were allowed to, like, essentially do whatever they wanted. Because we go in trusting the system, right? Most people go into the hospital and think they're going to be taken care of. They don't expect that there's going to be carelessness, that there's going to be, you know, the idea that your doctor might induce you or offer a C section because they want their client list cleared faster. Like some people think, like, that's just what people who hate doctors say. When I'm like, like it's an actual fact that before long weekends, there's the highest amount on the books of inductions so that they can get these babies born at certain times. And there's also doctors who have been challenged on this, and so they've had to publish their schedules and they're wise and they're. It's like, it's shown that there's certain times because if the babies are born at certain hours, they get to bill more, and if they're born on certain days, they get to bill more. And so they actually structure their births around maximizing their billing. And so when I share this with, I mean, I don't tell my clients this because I don't want them to, like, really doubt the system. I want them to know the system's going to do its best and I'm going to make sure it does even better. But if you look at that, like, when they have to go to, like, hearings and go like, actually say, is this in the client's or patient's best interest? Like, they can't even defend it because they're like, yeah, I guess it looks really bad that every long weekend I, like, clear my calendar, which means these people are undergoing medical interventions that are really risky for them and their baby for practitioner convenience. And so if you take all of these factors, plus insurance, plus, you know, what people get for, like, different processes, plus, plus, plus add, add that it's really litigious. So people are also doing it because they're scared they're going to get sued. So they hyper. They're very vigilant about, like, always assuming the worst case scenario. And you add this and you swirl it all up and it is a flipping mess in there. And your doula can really be there because they don't work for the healthcare system, they work for you. And so they can go in to be like, what do you want to do? But here's the realities, here's the stats, here's the actual outcome. Because I've had doctors say, like, epidurals have no side effects. And I'm like, the, the list that when we teach our students because we have a doula school, it's Four pages of side effects from the medications in an epidural now. And I'm not, I'm not going to say anything bad about the epidural. It saves lives and it allows people to have bursts that they want. But for a doctor to say there's no side effects, I'm like standing there being like, you're actually lying. Like you could lose your license for making this kind of claim.

I agree. I think there's better solutions. You know, the science and medicine has brought us to some certain place, but has become, it has become a cold, systematic place industry, like, you know, it's like patient after patient and yeah, I'm sold on the full doula thing. Just one last question. Like, I want to spend time with my children, but I don't want it to become most of my life. I want to retain my independence and so does my wife thrive and flourish professionally. You know, we don't want to become full time parents and I, I see a lot of parents just convert their full life purpose into their children. That, that's not for me, it seems. I want to spend quality time, but not most of my time. Want it to be a part of my full circle of, of time and energy spent. Can the doula be there after the child is born and still provide assistance to both of us?

Oh, for sure. Doulas come in that postpartum period. And just a couple thoughts, because you guys haven't got into the baby making time, so you can like really think about these things because you do need to think about them before conception. Because, you know, it would be like, I don't know, if somebody was like, you actually have to wear your seatbelt when you're a driver and you're like, I might not get my license then because I don't want to wear a seatbelt. So like, to really make an autonomous decision. So I mean, if you divide the work of parenthood, so there's the work of parenthood and then there's the relationship of parenthood. So the work is like getting ready for school, packing lunches, doing laundry, going to parent teacher interviews. The relationship of parenthood is talking to them and getting to know them and guiding them and teaching them their values that are important and teaching them resiliency and that they're safe and loved and, you know, to be an ethical, loving person on this planet or whatever the values are for you and your wife. And so what happens is because of capitalism and the patriarchy, we end up exclusively doing all the work and very little of the relationship so if you want to do like a big bang for your buck because you guys also are Charles and Mrs. Charles. So like you do, you don't want to lose yourself in parenthood because your children don't want you to lose. They don't want parents that lose themselves in their, in, in them as well. So contract out the work of parenthood like and then just do the relationship. So if you're with your kids, it's eye contact, it's no screens, it's listening, it's like activities, it's teaching them things. Go show them how the car works and go show them, you know, how to make a flower arrangement and how to set a table and how to make clothes, like whatever the things are that skills that like, like nobody has anymore. And so that's like what you can do. And so postpartum doulas come in and they'll do the work so that you can do the like holding. Getting to know. There's also a book that if before you guys have babies you both should like read slash listen to. It's Darcy Lockman's I love Her. I interviewed her on my podcast and it talks about, it's. It's called all the Rage. And it's all the research around the pitfalls of parenting, especially around the gender division of labor and all the rage. I can't say enough about it. I love Dr. Darcy Lockman. And so it would be a really great like you could read it ahead of time so you could see where all the like problems come and then you can make a plan to not have those be part of your family's life. But the reality is like kids under from zero to six especially, they're a full time job. So if you don't want to do it and your wife wife doesn't want to do it, you guys should probably go back to the drawing board so that you can figure out who is going to do that. But if, if anything listeners, if you could contract out, barter, do like exchange whatever you can do to do all the work part with somebody else and then you get to just be with your kids. And so few parents get to do any part of the relationship of motherhood. And unfortunately dads do the most of the relationship part because moms have done all the work part all day long because the second shift is real. So most women, even if they're the primary breadwinner, they'll still do double or triple or quadruple the amount that men would do. Even if men are the stay at home parents. And so it's a really great read to just like to see how you would have to structure it and stick to it so that you and your wife both get like a really joyful existence with your children.

Yeah. Let's call it 20 work 1010 me and wifey 80% doula or nanny whoever whatever the title and dula nanny 20% relationship work and 80% me and wifey would be the the plan here. But very insightful, very insightful. Thank you for coming on, Bianca. Where can people find out more about you?

Yeah, you can head over to our website@babelmia.com and you can also find us on most social channels at. Our handle is pretty consistent across all of them at Babomia Inc. B E B O M I A I N C and if you like listening to topics about reproductive health and justice or women's rage, things like that, you can check out our podcast. It's called Hot and Brave and it's on any podcast apparently.