🇯🇲 Jamaica sales culture, podcasting, entrepreneurship with Donald Kelly

Guys, welcome to another sales wisdom pod. We have Donald C. Kelly with us. He is founder at the Sales Evangelist. We're going to talk sales, we're going to talk foundership and everything in between. Donald, welcome to the pod. Tell us a bit more about yourself and tell us a bit more about the sales evangelist also.

Well, thank you, I appreciate it. Some run an organization called tsc the Sales Evangelist. And the idea behind our firm is that we help sellers for two main things. One, help them build pipeline. Two, help them convert a high percentage of those deals in their pipe. And the, the background behind that and a little bit about me is I grew up in Jamaica, moved to the United States when I was nine, got really fascinated with selling as a kid because that's all you're seeing in Jamaica. And when I got into came to the States and eventually went to college later on in life a lot of my friends were like you should consider sales. So I decided to do that. Went into different sales arena from doing Dish Network over the phone to getting people to timeshare presentation as a inside sales now known as bdrs. Then we went into, then I went into selling IT training classes and then eventually got into the medical industry selling medical solutions, IT managed services, then to SaaS and software. And in 25th, 2013, 2012 I started a podcast in 2015 that podcast has developed and it just made sense to leave that and do a full time gig but and started coaching individual sales reps as they were listening to our podcast and we've been sponsored and the company has evolved where we're beyond coaching but we run cohorts to help sales professionals again build pipeline and 3 to 5 extra pipeline through our outbound training programs as well as helping them to convert a high percentage of that. And we have a popular sales podcast which kind of alluded to Sales Evangelist. And with that I do a lot of speaking. So that's a little bit about me and about our firm tsc. And yeah, it, it, it's, it's fun. So we'll keep doing it until it gets boring.

So yeah, I guess it must be fun the speaking. Yeah, the podcast, it's always been a passion of mine too. I want to start with Jamaica. I am in Mexico right now and basically one of my observation, when we go out here, everyone's selling something whether it's street food, whether it is artisan, artisanal goods and so forth. And cells are very much different in Mexico. It's almost second nature Vs in my native Canada in which people are Most often scared to sell you things. And it's more reserved. Right. And people have concerns with selling. It's like, oh, is it ethical? Or oh, I don't feel good doing that. So tell us about that, that background, that cultural background and how it made sales a second nature for you.

You're right, 100% right on that. Because in, in a lot of the countries, like developing countries or in Jamaica's case, it's a third world country, you can't leave a job, you can't leave college and then to say I'm going to go find a great job. Like one of the greatest exports of Jamaica right now is its people. Like people get a great education, they go to Canada, they go to us, they go to UK to try to find opportunities. The. So when you're there, the, the mentality of Jamaican though is like not to sit down and beg you make it happen. So people find ways because there obviously demands and still there's needs where folks might need those fruit food or street, street foods or maybe they need like a different services. So you just make it happen. And that, that culture has been, has permeated with me. So I'll give an example. Everyone around me, when everyone around you do something, you're the average of the five people you hang around with the most. Right. So my dad was an entrepreneur, my mom wasn't. Did dabbled in entrepreneurship a little bit. My aunt was a really successful entrepreneur and my, you know, like my, the, the friends and neighbors that we saw. So in my mind if I was going to be successful, I was going to be a businessman. I didn't equate, equate business with sales. I just saw it as being an entrepreneur. But again, fast forward. When I came to the States, I knew I wanted to get some money for school. My mom couldn't afford some of the, you know, the things I wanted to get like, you know, wanted to spend money on, you know, nice shoes and clothes. So I did side hustles to be able to get that happen. Whether that creating a little micro business for spring break or you know, over the holidays or back to school, figure out little jobs or selling candy at school. It was whatever I needed to do because it was that hustle that I came along with. So in my mind it wasn't anything bad. So again, think about it from the US standpoint. A lot of people, however they have, they start doing, they do unethical practices to be able to get the end results in money. While people in Jamaica, they're doing it to survive and to be able to take care of themselves. And you can't shoot yourself in the foot because if I do anything unethical, it's going to, it's going to hinder my family, it's going to hinder my reputation, and I won't be able to continue my business. My aunt was selling stuff on the streets for years in Jamaica, but if she was doing anything unethical, that wouldn't be able to last. You know what I mean? Customers walk. So that mentality that I think the, the B2C aspect and the way that it was so intrinsically tied to our lifestyle, it makes us behave a little bit different in, in the way that we approach sales. But that, and that, I guess the mentality and the doggedness of just being willing to do what it takes to be able to generate the income we need was something that was permeated in my behavior. My friends made, thought it made sense for me to look into sales. Now obviously those are some of the characteristics of effective sellers in the States and in Canada and so forth. But you got to make sure you're, you do it on a, on, on the right basis, on the right value, on maintaining your ethics. So hopefully that answers the question on why I feel, you know, how that, that past life or my early upbringing bringing help me with sales today and.

Right.

The difference that we see, it opens

many doors here in Mexico. For example, it, there's beautiful things about it. For example, the, the trash man. It's not, it's not someone that's hired by the municipality. It's someone that you pay straight up. You know, the, the water guy too. They, they come up, fill your pipes with water. It's more privatized. And where I'm getting at is that it's a different system and I, I, I have some respect for it. Yes, sometimes it, it works less good. Another example is that people in their own little neighborhoods, well, if they caught someone stealing, they will beat that person sometimes to death. You know, they won't call the police. I saw a really nice documentary that I highly recommend. I forgot the name, but it was private ambulances in the city of Mexico which actually paid, you know, and that was so interesting. And, and yet it's a system sometimes that is different from what we know, especially as online folks. Right. Online, it's your reputation. People will try to kill your reputation to the ground if you really don't give them the service. And that's also somewhat respectful. Brings in equilibrium. And I felt the need to Give some example here of original street sellers that I saw that will be quite entertaining for the audience. So one that you might not know where if you're listening to this in Canada or in the US Every time I walk to the centro here in, in Oaxaca, I get my shoe shine. And that's really fun. You know, it's an experience. You just sit, you chill and you have someone kind of give you a foot massage and clean your shoes. That's one cool example. Another one that I saw that was somewhat quite original was these massage folks. So they go in the street and they give you a free massage for like five minutes and they're like, yeah, yeah, come here, I'll give you this massage. And, and you actually go. It feels so good. And then it's like, okay, now for 30 minutes massage, you need to pay me. It's like a super good upsell. Right. I've got this and I got so much more. What are some cool examples that you've seen in your native Jamaica of people like being real good at selling and even giving you a taste, a demo of the product? Yeah.

One example is the fruits and I'll give several examples. So like, you know, individual that might be selling fruits on the side of the road, they have all the fruits there. It looks delicious. But then when they put it in a neat little bag and give you a, you know, a little sample, obviously you know that's going to pull you in and you, you want to get more and they're going to give you the best stuff right. As a sample. The next thing is like one of our family friends, he, like a cousin's dad actually, he had a peanut, a roasted peanut machine. So he would literally on the three wheel bicycle, like a tricycle. And he had this roaster at the front and a roast of peanuts and he would ride around in the evening times and it was like, you know, a good little snack to have these roasted, you know, get some roasted peanuts. And you know, everybody knew about him. Oh my goodness, you know, it, the smell from a mile away. And then, you know, just the fact that you get these warm peanuts that you can, you know, you know, snack on is great. And then the other stuff, you know, you see the folks that are like singing or dancing in the road when they're selling like the, the street clothing. There's a lot of vendors that sell clothes in, in Spanish Town and in different, in different parts of the country. And the ones that, you know, they entertain you with the music, with singing or, you know, they, you Know, do some call call outs to you and you know, make jokes and it just makes it fun, it's entertaining. Um, and it just so happens that you, you know, you, you get entertained and you want to go purchase something and those ones are the ones you go back to. So those are three.

Water is also good water. Yeah, like really hot and they, they come up to you with, with cold water. Certainly entertaining.

Yes.

Here they, they sell fried plantain, you know, in the street and the little carts that they walk in makes a special noise, right? And instantly you know that it's, it's this. Another fun example that I've seen is there's raining seasons here and when it's raining they sell umbrellas. Like, dude, that's like, that's you're gonna sell these umbrellas because all people forgot about these.

You know, everyone forget.

That's always original. So I always ponder, you know, because I've always been an online guy and what, what if there would be like a solar ray thing to the, the planet, a solar storm and we'd lose all Internet, you know, all electricity. What, what would I do physically? You know, and sometimes it gets my brain going. But yeah, it's quite, quite fascinating and cool. Little intro for this podcast. Obviously you've been running podcasts yourself for quite some while, so I want to kind of segue into this usually. How do you make your guests feel at home? And how, how do you ask the perfect question? Although there's no perfection to have your guests provide as much insights as possible.

I think one of the pieces that help with that is the. How do I say? I think it's vulnerability. So let's give an example. If I'm trying to get my guests to, you know, if I'm trying to extrapolate something, give it an example or give a story almost sometimes self deprecating exam, you know, something about myself. Example usually causes the other person to be more willing or adapt to, to share stuff because I was vulnerable. Like I might say, you know, I didn't never make perfect calls. The other day I made a phone call and it didn't go so well. Tell me about an example that you have when you made a phone call. It didn't work out so well. And what was the lesson that you took away from that? But in a situation where you know that it gives me, it gives me, helps me to be vulnerable. It helps my prospect understand the situation a little better, helps them to tell me a story and stories usually go, you know, gives a lot more insight and Then also the lesson learned from those stories. So it's not just an arbitrary story. It's a story that actually is giving me, giving value to my listeners. So that's one of the ways that I go about doing it. And then always one of my favorite questions that I use in sales is, but I also use it in a podcast. Use it in our, in our podcast. Is the idea of that follow up question like, interesting, Tell me more about that. Or I might say something to the nature of Charles. It sounds like there's a story behind it, go a little bit deeper. And then usually the guest will then, you know, go a little bit deeper and tell us more or give me an example of how you do it right now. Sometimes you find that people tell a lot of theories on podcasts. It's easy to tell theories, but getting them to share that specific example always usually helps to make the listener more, more excited because it's. They're showing that it's real. This person knows what they're talking about as well as it's a practical thing that they can try a test out.

Love it, love it, love it, love it. The vulnerability part, so accurate. The other day I had the tough podcast. I wasn't feeling my best, you know, and I told you this productivity superstar, and it ended up like really bad. I felt anxiety and I felt these micro traumas, you know, like that. The next day I was editing my pods and I was, I was like, like feeling some avoidance, you know, oh, I don't want to listen to the pot again. And obviously I, I found out that this was more hype than reality, you know, because I listened to the pod and was somewhat fine, but I really up that, that time and sharing that made me feel better. And also when, when these things happen, you know, like, I, I believe it's important also that to reflect that I haven't, I haven't disarmed my guests with vulnerability. Maybe I should have started with, with that guest with V. What made the podcast crappy, apart from my brain, is it was the resistance of the guests, right? Constantly resisting my question, constantly in resisting mode. And when people resist, I'm not sure if you had these podcasts that are a bit like harder, but every time that the guest resists, it spikes up the cortisol, it spikes up the anxiety, and then it makes you nervous, and then you start looking for your words and then it kind of spirals down. Although I tend to fancy myself as someone that has real deep control over its mind, my next question is, did you ever had these episodes and what are tricks that you use to kind of get you out of that negativity spiral or calls and cells, by the way?

Yeah, a hundred percent. I, I think it, it works for me. That's the what I'll tell you the solution works for me in sales first and then I applied it to the podcasting. But I do have those situations. I, I remember once I was interviewing, it was Guy Kawasaki, and then I had another episode with Seth Godin, some of bigger names. And I've had interviews with folks like Jeb Blunt, who I've, you know, built a good relationship with. But either way, I esteem these individuals as superstars, which they are in the right and people that I admire and look up to. So because of that, it just made me all of a sudden start to become subservient. But what I. In each of those cases, I remember what the Seth go to interview. I felt like I couldn't ask a question that was good because I felt every. I feel like he's so intellectual and so, you know, intelligent that any questions I ask ask is going to sound dumb.

Right.

But then the thing about that interview, that, and that helped me as well as with any of the other interviews, as well as it helped me in my sales call. Whether I'm speaking to a CEO or CFO or, or, you know, CRO, you know, someone that has some, you know, established in their position, I realize that they're human as well. And I know probably a little bit more about the solution that I have to offer than they do in that vein. Because why in the world are they on the call with me? Why are they trying to learn from me? Because they know I know something that they, they don't know. In Seth Godin's case, it was a fantastic interview. But I realized he was human. He was with his family, he was in a, they're in a cabin. And his wi fi wasn't great. And I'm like, Seth Godin, Wi Fi wasn't great. Yeah, he's in a mountain, but he's a human. He has, you know, challenges just as much as I do. So I can't put myself subservient to any one person. And then I think about the accomplish that. I meant accomplishments that I have. It's not nearly the accomplishment as Seth or any of these other guests, but it shows that I have something of worth and I have something of value, whether it's the top voice with LinkedIn or whether it's the salesforce recognition that I receive. Or whether it's the Forbes magazine mentioned or the Success magazine article. Like, I see these and I say, okay, okay, I, I deserve, I deserve to be here. I deserve this right, to be able to have this conversation and recognize, yeah, they're human just as much as I am and they have challenges as well. And I have something that I could offer them right now that they need my help on.

Really.

Hopefully that was clear.

Yes, very clear. The value you add is quite high in your answers, I must mention. That's why I love talking with other podcasters because they tend to be on both side of the mic and they offer good answers to my question. And that's directly related to my next point with Set first. I do also feel the intellectualism, you know, and yes, sometimes there's a need when I get interviewed for me to reformulate the question, but I think I need to check myself on that because it makes the, the holes feel uncomfortable. Right. And we need to think about these details.

Yeah.

When you what, what a tough interviewee as well is the Chief Scientist of OpenAI Ilya. He often reformulates the, the questions. I'm not sure if you listen to some of his interviews, but that, that would be a tough one. And I think I would need to come very much prepared and go really deep and have plan C and plan these, because that interview of mine that went, that not. Did not go so well. I did have some questions prepared and I did have something in front of me, but I felt these questions were so weak. They were like generated by chat GPT and OpenAI. So I felt, I felt, yeah, next time I will rebuild these questions and have plan B or Plan Cs. Another one of these would be Jocko Willink. I posted an interview of Lex Freedman in which it was a constant chess like slash jiu jitsu match. I posted on that on my LinkedIn yesterday. And I would view these interviews as, as challenges. I listened to the one with Seth Godin. But yeah, I can imagine the challenge. And last thing that I have to say about that one is that, yeah, us on our side, we've been on both sides of the mic. Same for Set Godin. But I can tell you that even with a crappy interviewer or I mean, maybe I shouldn't say it that way, but someone that is subpar when it comes to interviewing and that is starting. I can make it a good interview. You know, the bad thing starts happening when the, the person you ask questions not only negatively influences you, but negatively influences the audience. And I've had that recently which is like dude, do you even think about like others there or do you just think about yourself and your ego? Anyway, somewhat, that parenthesis somewhat closed. The next question I had is directly related to what you just mentioned. The Forbes mention, the Salesforce, the LinkedIn top voice. I want to know how you obtained each of those because I'm also seeking to, to get my hands on, on these sooner.

If I had that answer, I'd be a rich man right now. I think the, the thing that came about all of that was from pure grit and the will. Let's back up. I think the, the easiest way that those, the reason why those came two things. One was putting out great content like and I know that's a given answer people give all the time but there's, there's something different when you put out you know, a episode or a piece of content maybe subpar compared to episode or a piece of content that you do that you feel good about. And you, you, you know, you want and listen. I have some stuff that I've done and I'm like man, I want to, I'm excited to go back and listen and see the finished product versus some of these stuff. I'm just like, okay, it's another interview. If I feel that way. Imagine what other people are not who are listening to it may feel or the, you know, the followers that listen to it regularly. Now think about the ones that are that I'm super excited about. Those are the ones that people are willing to take and to share and to repost on social. Yeah, they take more work but the value in the, in the outcome of it makes it so much better because of those I think I probably have, I have me, I have more pieces of content that were more in the second bracket where people, you know, was exciting that I was excited for that others were excited for, which enabled me to be able to get recognition from others within my network, which is point number two. You can't succeed in a silo. And oftentimes we diminishes, diminishing our capabilities because we don't, we don't raise our hands, we don't or we don't connect with people who can help us get to the next level. So what I mean by this is, you know, identifying who are some of those people that may be at LinkedIn or some of these other well established organization that I could build a good relationship with who can, you know, and I'm not going into those relationship just as a means to get something. But I Just need to make sure I'm, I'm. Go back to what I mentioned. You're the, the. That quote, I think I can't remember who exactly gives the credit back to, but so many people say it, but you're the, the. You're the result of the top five people you hang out with the most. Right. So if this is the case, then I need to make sure that I'm spending time with people, with the people that want. I want to be like or to be with. So connecting with folks in my network and respecting people in my network. So when I created value, I give value with other people and people found it. So let's give an example like with the one for the. The first one was Entrepreneur Magazine. I created started creating value. One of my friends knew an author that was publishing an article. This was back in 2012 and 13, 2013 actually. And this author, this contributor to the Entrepreneur told my friend, hey, I'm looking for some up and coming podcasters who do you feel are good. So because my friend saw the content that I was putting out, he willingly recommended me to that person and I'm grateful because of that. Now once you get mentioned in one of those, it becomes very easy to be mentioned by others because people are lazy and if they're going to create something, they're going to look at some of the past works and some of the past nominees and mention and those people, you know, after they do their due diligence, see that I'm putting out good content, then they, you know, reach back out to me. Similar thing with Success magazine. It was a. Of somebody recommended me to Success magazine. It wasn't for an article, it was just, you know, someone in sales. And then we started a conversation and led to that. When it came to LinkedIn, another person again connected me with someone in my network who didn't have a. I didn't know it had a big deep network. But this individual, she reached out to me and to connect I was going to ignore her LinkedIn request. I connected with her and no strings attached and started talking and then she was saying she's building out her network and she recommended. Hey, I know she found out what I was doing and knew somebody at LinkedIn was doing interested in like helping podcasts of colors. When it came to I was doing a show specifically around helping salespeople of color and that was this LinkedIn was doing some research in this department. So she recommended me to as a resource and I gave free advice to this person at LinkedIn, no strings attached just was open to the conversation. That person then went along and came back and connected me with several other folks in LinkedIn. And it just built the relationship from there. Um, all of these were. I was being, you know, asked questions or interviewed for stuff or gave free advice or, you know, gave them blog posts, ideas or sorry, contributed on. In a blog or whatever. But it was just give value to the network. So the moral of the story is put out dope content and then work your network. Not with any strings attached. Just work the network and people will recommend you. People don't know what you have to offer until they know what you have to offer. So it's, it's in. It's. It's in imperative that we in help other people know what we can do and what we're capable of. Long answer.

Have time for two, three more questions.

Let's go, let's go. My next appointment is canceled. So. Good.

Yeah, okay, cool. Well, thank you. Very insightful for that. For the podcast. I want to ask you nowadays, how much percent of your podcast are our home runs are medium or are mediocre and what do you do with the mediocre ones and the medium ones? You still publish them or do you. Do you not publish them?

I respect the guest time, so I still publish them. But I would say the majority of our stuff right now are probably. I don't say a 10 is. I'm. I have a very high standard, so a 10. I don't have a whole lot of tens, but. But I probably say my episodes are probably within that seven to the, you know, seven to nine range. Sometimes a six to nine. I've had one recently that it was probably a five and we were able to salvage it in a way that made it into at least like a 7. So it would be beneficial to our community. One of the things that I've done is we get because of our show is Soul is so mature in age. Been around since, you know, late 2012, 2013. One of the things that make our show so because of that past that, that heritage that we've had, we've had people who, you know, come back and they, you know, we get a lot of requests. But I do a pre interview and it's a practice that I started to adopt. And when I do that pre interview, even if I'm not bringing. Can't do the interview with the person, I do stuff like I just brought on, um, I had an interview with the CRO at Calendly now she doesn't. Didn't have the time to sit down and do a 15 minute interview. And I'm it's not Good Morning America. So she. But they had the publicist work with me, see me their communication specialist and we were able to develop like what are we going to focus on? What are some of the top issues. And by doing that we were able to frame a great episode and actually sound really good. And. But that 15 minute interview, pre interview does a world of difference to make the content more engaging and help to set the expectation. And by. Because I've done that, we've seen the majority of our stuff turn out at a better, at a better result or a better level.

Right? Yeah, I offer both options like us here, pre interviews, straight up like in the bud. Some people prefer that experienced people, I prefer that way too. But a bunch of folks that are quite valuable as well prefer the pre interview. Let's go straight in for the actual quality of the interview. Me, when I sense that the person either in the pre interview or straight up the podcast call, I sense that they're not going to add a lot of value either because their communication style or just low, you know, they don't have much story or much more accomplishment. I'm like, okay, we're going to do it and if it's good, I'm going to publish it. If not, I'm not going to publish it straight up, which is kind of rough. But that's one thing that I tend to do. Another one is that I publish it, but I publish it as unlisted in my YouTube so they can share it with their audience, but it's not going to be published on my YouTube channel. And the final idea that I have, which I think is preferable, but I don't have much time to do it, is to really like do shorts. So you take like their best 10 seconds or a couple of 10 seconds and, and yeah, you published it that way to avoid. To bore the audience. What do you think about that?

Yeah, I mean I think that's a. It gives the person, you know, you're still publishing if whether it's unlisted or not. And then also you're giving them access to an audience they probably wouldn't have had access to. So I think those are some good ideas as well.

So I like, I want to finish up because yeah, like let's take the next five minutes productively to talk about your speaking gigs. Tell me like, okay, what, what are the economics behind that one? You charge 5k per speaking gigs, how much you get per year? How do you get those, those speaking gigs and then I want to talk about the cohort business if you can give us the big picture economics and the how behind these two yeah speaking

is it's a great money maker. I and the reason why I'll give you an example. I I rarely speak for free now but I started off doing that a lot. But if I do speak for free I'm not paying for travel or paying for like yeah yeah accommodation that that's just got to take care of from the vendor and the other thing to that is the current one of the currency. Like I just spoke at an event in in Broward which is a local so I didn't charge anything and I know the organizer. However I needed currency in some way so I told them I need to get the email list of everyone that came. Now a lot of those people are right Ally so I have email, phone number and contact details. My sort of my bdrs they're excited. My marketing folks is excited because those people could be nurtured. But those are going to all get a follow up call and it's probably you know, maybe in that at least from this event, maybe at least 10 to 20 sales that we can make which makes sense Speaking gig starts off I'm not like a ridiculous person in my fees but anywhere starts off between 5 to 10ks just depend on the venue and the, the organization and the complexity of what we're doing. But that's kind of like a ballpark that I, I, I follow plus my travel and expenses and yeah that it's, it's good because it's something I'm passionate about. Now here's the other part with that too. Is that still yet when I speak in front of audiences a percentage of those people they're going to turn into business whether it's from the leads that I generate from there from the organizer or if it's people who hear me speak and they're interested in our services that we have to offer. So that's another way my sweet, my talent and skill is in speaking. So whether it's through the podcast, whether it's or through a live speaking event or a virtual speaking event, if I could be in front of an audience we're going to get some opportunities and get some leads and some business develop from that. So I'm good with I love that hopefully that answers.

How do you get contacted by these folks? Do you outreach to them? Did they hear from you? Is it inbound? Outbound?

Tell us a little bit of Both with the reputation that we have on LinkedIn now. So majority of my speaking opportunities are inbound. So we are dedicating a team member now that's going to be starting to pitch. We do on average when it look at the rest, you know, the end of the year is probably about one speaking gig a month average. Sometimes it's two a month and one per, you know, a month whatnot. And but the in, in this case there was a couple of those that's going to be free like this one that I just did. But again the deals, the leads that we get from it, we have 300 plus leads which now or email address, phone numbers and direct dial phone cell phone which is awesome for our team. But with that there's. You're going to. This money is going to come from. So the point is. But about one per month is on average now what we want to do is to get me in front of more of those avenues and we do about at least one try to get one podcast per week. So in this case I'm doing your show this week and it averages out by one podcast per week, one speaking a gig per month. We want to double that up to like say you know, a couple podcast event speaking per week and then for the month, couple speaking gigs per month. Because that's just a huge revenue lead source for our team overall. Because then those people come into our cohorts. We have several cohorts and explain that we have one specifically for LinkedIn prospecting which is our darling right now and a lot of people love that. We have our sales foundation which goes through, teaches the whole sales process, teaches you how to prospect, teaches you how to have great discos and to build value, run you know, effective demos and then teaches you how to close or convert business. So that's a full, that's our longest program, that's eight week program. Our LinkedIn program is four weeks with the introduction weeks, about four and a half, five weeks for that program. And we do this weekly. So we need for 90 minutes for each session and we have fundamental content that they watch in preparation for those 90 minute educational sessions. So they're say they're committed consuming two modules. We're focusing on say if it's our sales foundation, how to write effective emails as well as, you know, how to, you know, utilize, set up great sequences. So maybe to watch those two modules then they, they practice some of those things, ask questions and then they come to our group training sessions and they take part in that where our facilit Lead that they're not reteaching everything over again because people watch the content, but they're answering questions, doing role plays and enforcing the major points in those, in those modules in our program. And that's a great process for us. And the way those work, we keep them relatively small or relatively small in comparison. Some of the major programs out there, but a decent size try to max out at 25 individuals per program, per cohort minimum. I try to, you know, we don't go if it's a private company, maybe don't load less than 10, but about 10 to 15 is a minimum, minimum range. But that allows. Helps us to. That we strive for but it helps us to be able to have a good balance of individuals in a cohort. People can enjoy and experience and connect with and. But that's that that's when we started to. And be transparent. As a podcaster, what I started to do was more coaching and consulting at because that's where you know most of your stuff is. Can you coach me? It's like sure, but it's time for dollars. After you get, you know, several coaching client going, you get burnt out. I wanted to create, I want to create an empire. Our goal is to, you know, go big, right with our, our program and to be one of the, the number one sales education organization in the world. So we need to do some things to be able to make that happen. And one of those things was to scale because I can't surely coach as many people to make that difference. We had to create programs, create cohorts, train facilitators who can do those. And by having them train, I can go out and do what I need to do. Go on the road, go in front of the audiences, get more leads. People come to our podcast, go through our process, get into our cohorts. There's my model.

Really exciting. Well, you have multiple businesses and sources of income, so that's pretty cool. I'm on this site now, 350ish per month, let's call it that way. So yeah, pretty cool stream of revenue. I'm seeking to try the cohort model myself. So I guess we need to book another episode to talk about this, talk about cold email and LinkedIn and everything in between. But as of today, like where can people find out more about you, Donald?

Easiest ways to go to LinkedIn and send me a message telling me that you heard heard on this podcast. And then the second thing is go to the sales evangelist.com and, and connect with, connect with us there. We have some free content you can consume. Some of those are getting we're going through an upgrade model process right now. So June is going to be June and July is going to be a transfer transformative month. But we either way, we have a resource tab, whether it's our free training program or free content you can get access to. But you can find that or get on my newsletter, get content education from me regularly.

So thank you so much.