Justin Oberman - Oberman & Partners

Welcome to another Founder Wisdom pod. We have Justin Oberman with us today. Justin is founder at Oberman and Partners in Los Angeles, NYC, was a freelance for some time. Interesting guy, must say. Normally I don't have like PR people on, but this guy's really interesting, promises worth your time. He's a marketing influencer. He's all about rebuilding personal brands and I witnessed his work checking a couple of his clients' LinkedIn profiles. Like, yeah, this is smart. This is done right, you know. I think there's a bunch of PR agencies that are doing it wrong nowadays. I think Justin is doing it well. He's, uh, the way he does it is smart, it's to the point, there is some humor, it's different. He has the classic PR which is like, oh, front of Forbes cover, right, or stuff like that, Forbes 30 Under 30 and guaranteed placements. And anyway, Justin, welcome to the pod. Tell us a bit more about yourself and what you're up to.

Hi, yeah, well, thank you so much. Um, yeah, there's a lot in what you said, uh, that, um, I feel is, is both accurate and also needs some clarification. But yeah, I'm Justin Oberman. I, I started my career in, uh, well, I technically started my career in insurance. I come from my, my family background is in insurance, but, uh, insurance brokers. But, um, uh, I got into marketing, into advertising, traditional advertising, worked as a copywriter and big agencies, did print ads and Super Bowl commercials and all that kind of stuff. And, um, uh, long story short, uh, during COVID I, I lost my job, uh, like, like a lot of people did. And my wife said, either you start your own agency or you find something else to do. So I didn't know what else to do. So I got into advertising because I suck at everything else. And I started my own ad agency during the pandemic. And because you couldn't network or anything, I just went online and LinkedIn and started just sharing. Finally had time to sit and read some of the books, and I started getting work that way. And I was just sharing knowledge and hopping on podcasts and talking to people. And before I knew it, I had a large following. I didn't even— I wasn't even paying attention to any of that. And, um, a lot of people were asking me, oh, can you do for me what you did for you? And I was like, no, I work in advertising. I can make— I create ads and stuff like that. But, you know, the, the marketing world and the advertising world sort of changed, and it became something that, like, I kind of didn't want to do and be a part of. So, um, I ended up kind of burning out and closing the agency. And when I did, I was like, oh, well, now I can help people do what I did. So I continued posting the way I was posting, and I would just put at the bottom, like, hey, I'm taking on, um, If you like my writing and you wanna write like I do, but you don't know what to write about on LinkedIn and stuff like that, reach out to me. I'm taking on like 10 or 5 ghostwriting clients. And a lot of former agency people came to me and 2 of them are still with me to this day. But it really has evolved since then. I started, because I come from advertising world, my concept of branding is very different than I think a lot of people's is. And when you take— when I take that and apply it to personal branding, it becomes very different as well. And I started applying the same things, the same things that I knew how to build a brand, uh, what I knew how you really build a brand in, in the regular world to people. Um, you know, I, I, uh, realized that what, what I had become is, is a kind of publicist, but not, not a typical publicist, or like PR like you called it. Um, I don't do out— I don't— I mean, at a very high level, I do outbound and stuff, but I really partner with other traditional PR agencies for that. My job, if you think about it, is much more like an old-school Hollywood publicist, um, where I manufacture news for my clients. I think it's much easier to have my clients do things that get the press coming to them rather than me constantly having to take their news and go out to them. And the way we do that is we do that with LinkedIn posts, we do that on social media, we do that on Substack, but also more importantly, we do that offline by having my clients do things, say things, promote things, um, that, um, they, you know, show up at events get, get featured on podcasts such as yours. And, um, and, uh, it's a much more powerful way of showing up, uh, than just using social media to, to like a megaphone.

There you go. Are you grateful to have lost your job? Because I followed like, um, all these Hollywood screenwriters complaining about stuff rather than starting companies. Some of them are talented, but most are not. Like, that's the truth. Um, and if they would, they would just start freelancing or some stuff. So at one end, I know it's hard to start a business, and maybe it is hard for you. I'd love to hear about what you have to say. But at the other end, I'm like grateful that you lost your job so that you could start that and, you know, fly from your own wings without being like hooked to one specific client.

Am I grateful that I lost my job, uh, at that point? Yeah, I guess at, at that point, yeah, it pushed me. I've— oh, look, my wife even at this point has always said, like, I never really got along, uh, working for somebody else. Um, I was always much better when I was freelancing, and I'm certainly making more money than I ever made before. Working by myself— for myself, not by myself. And but I am not a businessman. I am very good at what I do. And so, you know, finding the right business partner to help me take this and scale it, which is, which is, which is where, which is where I'm at at this point. At this point, I am, I'm at the point where I have to sort of make that decision, like, do I want to just kind of stay like Maverick style, like I am now, which there are a lot of publicists like me in the past who have— one guy named Jim Moran, for example, who was sort of known for that— or do I want to, you know, take this and see where I can go by upping the publicity part of it, you know, not just making it about, you know, ghostwriting and LinkedIn and social media. So yeah, I'm very grateful about it. And I think what you said about screenwriters and stuff is on point. I'm not that familiar with the entertainment industry world, but from one writer to another writer, yeah, you have to evolve with everything that's going on.

But you say you're not a good businessman. I would sort of disagree with that because the very principles you put forward, like that Purple Cow stuff, Being different will attract people. It will have people stop in their tracks. So even like technical, typical business people lack this thing. They always want to be politically correct. They always want to fit in the box. And for that reason, they get very few leads and very few business.

Yeah, well, thank you for saying that. I think what I meant just by that is that when it comes to like finances and money and figuring out how much to charge—

isn't there an AI for that?

What'd you say?

Isn't there a Claude for that? Claude?

Um, no, I think, uh, yes, well, yeah, if I wanted to figure it out by myself, but at the same time, having a person, you know, well, having a human being that I think understands, um, how to do it is, and, and then how to use AI, leverage that would be, would be, I could just actually, it's sort of an unrelated topic, but one, one of my best friends is Andrew McLuhan, who is Marshall McLuhan's grandson, the guy who did Medium is the Message. A lot of my philosophy about advertising, marketing, even, even AI, it comes from Andrew McLuhan, uh, it comes from Marshall McLuhan. One of the things that Marshall McLuhan all technology is an extension of some part of the human body, right? Like, to enhance it. So a car is an extension of your legs, clothing is an extension of your skin, uh, television extension of your eyes. And the question is, is, okay, well, what's AI an extension of? Well, to me, it really doesn't— we can debate that all day long, but if you realize, once you realize that AI is, or technology, or any medium is just an extension of you and yourself, that kind of makes you think a little bit differently about how to use AI. I think a lot of people, right, I don't know how to write, so I'm going to have AI write for me. Well, that's, if you take a McLuhan perspective of it, backwards, because what you're doing is you're taking a bad, a worse part of yourself and amplifying it. It's much, much better to book AI for what you're good at in order to help you be better at it. And so I, I imagine this sort of utopia world where me as a publicist and as a, as a trained writer and stuff like that, using AI to help me write, I'm going to be 10 times better writer than anybody else is with AI helping me write. Um, and then, you know, Mr. Taxman over here who can save me $40,000 on taxes, I will help— I— he will hire me to use— to write for him, and I will use AI to make it even better. And I will hire him to do my taxes and he will use AI to do that and make his job even better. And to me, that's the perfect world.

Yeah, sort of. I have clients and co-founders that are running tax businesses and I can tell you that it's not super creative. It's very compliant. So there's not much— I mean, as a common mortal, the rift of the low-hanging fruit of using an AI to do your taxes that it's such a low and big, uh, low-hanging fruit that yet I would jump in and use it for my own taxes. I wouldn't hire a firm. It would do a better job than, than most firms. For writing, everyone uses AI for writing. Everyone writes the same. And as soon as a prospect sees that you write like an AI, they're gonna discard you.

Sure.

So that's, that's an argument against sort of what you're saying. No, it's a good one.

No, it's an argument. Maybe you're talking about the same thing, but it's an argument for what I'm saying. If you don't know how to write, you're not going to use AI to write well, period, end of story. You're not, you're not going to, because writing is not— I'll give you an example. Today, uh, somebody posted something and they said, hey, download my anti-writing guide, and you take it and you prompt it and it'll go through everything that you wrote and it'll remove all the AI-isms, all the it's not this, it's that, all the em dashes, all of that stuff. The problem is, is that's not the problem. When you have a phrase like, it's not this or that, or let, you know, let's jump in, or let's, let's dig into this, those phrases are louder when the thought is quieter. But you, I guarantee you, you have read something that has been 100% written with AI and even had those markers and those tells in it but didn't even think about it because the substance of what was being, uh, written was so intriguing and so the idea, yeah, so whatever, that you didn't, that you didn't notice it. And so you got to remember that writing is not just writing. It's not just putting words together. It is, it's, it's, there's, there's so much more.

Yeah, it's connecting with someone's brain. Yeah.

And what idea? And, and And also like where the writing appears. Yeah, where the writing appears matters more than anything. And, um, and so me as a writer, as a trained writer, I mean, it's amazing. It's an amazing tool.

Um, my, my earlier point was more like being good at finance and taxes is probably 3% important in a business. Getting top of funnel leads which is a skill that you could entertain with your LinkedIn posts and so forth, that's like at least 50% of the business, right? So I had past co-founders that were CFOs, and I had them do like mostly non-CFO stuff to be valuable, right? So just like when you're saying you're not good at business, I think top of funnel is pretty much everything, and being different, right? Like the AI, you can tell it to convey an idea, and it will convey your idea, but if your idea is crap, if your angle is crap, I mean, however good it will be written, like, no one will bite, right? You need to take something that's actual. You need to have insights that most people don't have, and AIs are still not at this, uh, state, right? Like, they cannot scrape the market in real time and/or fathom or construct very insightful pieces to your audience, right? Because we all have different audiences. What do you think?

I mean, yeah, the— everyone has to— so, so yeah. And but the thing is, is I've done it. I've helped people just create AIs to help them write in their voice. And you know what? They always come back. They always come back. And they're always just like, it's, it's picking up too many pat— it's just the same pattern over and over again. They did— because there's just something. I don't know what it is. There's something that I know that other people don't know. Uh, and so when I use the AI, it— I'm using it differently than somebody who doesn't know how to write. And, um, and, um, look, for certain things you can get away with it, right? For certain, certain things, bottom funnel type marketing stuff or whatever, um, certainly. But for, for most things and other things, and, and like you said Before, when we were on, you were like, oh, I scroll down my email and if the subject line looks like AI, I ignore it. That's just going to become more and more and more and more commonplace. And it's going to happen to people who are not using AI at all, even. Like, and so that just makes the job of hiring a writer even more important if you think about it.

Well, it's pattern interruptors, right? Like if I write all lower caps that headline, and I start with something that's potentially shocking. Like, one of my headlines yesterday was like, uh, business hacks so good they should be illegal, right? I think I started with the illegal keyword, right? So if you see illegal in your fucking mailbox, that's an attention stopper, right? Like, that'll get your eyes on something. Um, and then the premise needs to be right. But I mean, you're right in saying that sometimes you have that hunch, that inside, that AI doesn't have, even if it has your data, it might lack some previous data. There's like a lot of magic still going up in the brain, like magical creative explosions, right? And, but I think it starts with sort of either being smarter, not giving a fuck, right? Like, uh, you've been to places, you either know that being like inside the box won't convert and won't yield much for yourself or your clients, or And I have both into me. I'm not sure about you, but I also have like this A/B testing scientist up there that pretty much has, that will win like every other decisions. Like, yeah, fuck it, let's test it, right? Let's test this out and see how the market reacts. And I'm always surprised, but I cannot, I couldn't ever build a formula around this. It's really hard to know what the market will want. Did you develop a formula on your side, or—

for AI use?

No, for headlines and material and content and anything you put out there that will convert predictably. I think it's pretty impossible to come up with like a formula that will work all the time. You need to keep on testing, right?

For the kind of work I'm doing, because it's not really advertising, right, it's publicity It's newsletters, it's LinkedIn posts, it's constant communication. So no, there's— unless my client has settled in on a certain style, like every LinkedIn post is a joke or something like that, it becomes very much just like what's top of mind. Because really, when you think about it, right, with any advertise— with any medium, right, an ad or, or content that you are considering as marketing, it's not competing with other marketing content. You're always competing with what people use the platform for. So TV commercials don't compete with other TV commercials. TV commercials compete with the TV show, right? And that the best TV commercials are better than the TV show. And, and advertising people who understood this— what my mentor taught me very early on. When you understand that, you create better advertising. And so, but it's the same thing on LinkedIn. What are you competing with? You're not competing with other people trying to sell their services. You're competing with the people who are just on there posting corporate bullshit. Well, you know, you're competing with people who are just influencers sharing like, look what I did. And, and people make fun of that, but that's what social media was built for. It's like, look, look, I did this thing, it's cool. And people love applauding what other people did. You're competing with those things. And so that means you need to act that way. And so that's why I have no content— I never use content calendars. I never do any of that stuff because all that stuff is artificial before artificial intelligence. I want it to be— everything is real and in real time. The only thing I'm trying to do is say, Who are you? And let's make you more interesting. And more importantly, and I use this word, let's make you famous. You have to be famous, whether it's in your niche, in your industry, or in the world, because the more famous you are, the, the, the, um, the more opportunities will come to you. And I can't even tell you what the ROI on that— doors just start opening, strange things start happening, things you— it will bring you you could go or imagined what happened. Um, because marketing— this is from Rory Sutherland, right? Marketing is like a casino, awesome casino, because you can count the cards, you can— you, you're allowed to count the cards, you can see the dealer's deck, and the more famous you are, the greater likelihood you have of getting lucky. And so why wouldn't you want to be more well-known as a business leader right, uh, for, for your company or your brand or whatever it is that you're selling.

Yeah, maybe I should hire you. Um, my, my counter to that would be like, um, values, right? I don't want to sell my soul to the devil. I don't want to be famous either. Um, I may— I want to be known in my niche amongst like founders and CEOs and B2B and AI and folks that are changing the world, for sure. Um, And I think there's a way I can keep on track, like not losing my value and still get views in front of these folks. I may have to change my style. My values wouldn't change, right? But my style could change. I'm sort of for like attracting attention if that means like adding value to someone's day, right? Whether it is diminishing their cortisol or bringing brain insights to them. And I guess I need to change my style of how I tell stories, I guess.

Can I, can I address that? Because it's the most common. Actually, my, my latest newsletter was about this. So I, I just finished a whole series on my newsletter, which is Ober— uh, which is, uh, substack.oberman.com. The newsletter is called Oberthinking. The whole premise of the newsletter is when everyone has access to the same tools, which AI gives us, the only thing that matters is the way you think about them or about anything. And I give, uh, very interesting prompt ideas. I don't think that you should prompt AI. I think you should use a protocol, a back and forth. So I give instructions and going back and forth with AI in order to do different things and stuff like that. That's, that's for the paid people who pay. But in general, I just finished up this whole series about showmanship and about how to apply showmanship to, to your business or to your personal brand or to any of these things, right? Because My whole thing is you don't need to build a personal brand, you just need to master the art of personal publicity. So the first misunderstanding is showmanship. When I use the word showmanship, people think P.T. Barnum, right? They think circus, they think this thing. But showmanship is a very simple definition. Showmanship is pretty much whatever everyone else is doing, you do the opposite, right? And that can also be an act of showmanship. And my favorite example of this is Tiffany's. Right? So you have Tiffany's, comes out as a jewelry store in the 19—

Justin, you're lagging out.

Oh, am I there?

Someone hit the Netflix. Yeah.

Sorry. You're back. Sorry. Tiffany's didn't pick a logo. Tiffany's picked a color. Literally, their first guide, their first thing that they mailed out, didn't have their logo on the COVID It just had that pale blue. All of their boxes don't have the Tiffany name on it, just the pale blue box. You know it's Tiffany's box when you see it. Tiffany's also used to never put their— at their address in their ads. If you knew, you knew. And every Sunday, when all the other jewelry stores would put stuff in the window because everyone was walking around, They closed. All of this was done on purpose. All of this was done to do things differently than everybody else did and to stand out. Those are all acts of showmanship. They're not Razzmatazz type showmanship, but they are a style of showmanship. So that's the first thing you have to understand when I'm talking about showmanship and when I say about being famous. The other thing is like, okay, your values and this and that— obviously don't go against your values, but I will tell you this: If you, if you resist the urge to become known and to do— this is ridiculous. How am I— if, if, if all of a sudden you discovered that you are, that the thing is going, that's going to make you more, more famous has nothing to do with with the fact of what you're talking about, but it's because people— you, you do a really funny rant in a French accent and like that gets you famous, then, then you need to find a way to leverage that and, and use it, right? And even if it seems silly or this or that, because I'm not saying that it's impossible not to be— become well-known and make money without being fame. I'm just telling you it's more expensive, right?

Yeah.

So like, and I'll just, I'll give you an example. I had a, I had a client who is in the marketing business, and he specializes in marketing to mortgages, mortgage companies. He helps mortgage companies with their marketing. Now there's like 5 or 6 of these people on LinkedIn. One of them happens to be a hot girl. And one day he's complaining to me that she's getting, she gets so much engagement. Why? Because she's a hot girl. She takes a picture on her bed Her post is just this vanilla fluff, AI-written stuff, but she gets, right? So I told them, first of all, the type of engagement she's getting is not the type of engagement that neither you nor probably she wants. The second is that you can do the same thing and you don't have to take off your shirt, do anything like that. I said, what do you like to do? He says, I like to camp. Like, great, here's what's going to happen. You're going to go out into the woods, you're going to get a Starlink, and then you're going to do your next webinar about mortgages and marketing by campfire. And while you're out there, you're going to start creating content— you pitching a tent, you whittling wood, you doing whatever you do when you're camping— talking about marketing and mortgages without ever once addressing the fact that you're out in the woods. I don't want you to be like, mortgages is like pitching a tent, and you— I don't want that. Just the regular content while you're pitching the tent, right? Just keep doing that all day long. Because now, now, now you know what you've just done? You've become a lot more interesting. No one knows why, but when I go— when, when I contact CNN and CNN contacts me and says, hey Justin, do you have anybody who can speak last about mortgages? Yeah. I'm like, yeah, well, I have a guy, but he's kind of interesting. He, he only does this when he's in the woods. What? He only talks about mortgage marketing when he's in the woods? Who, who are they going to talk to? Are they going to talk to the guy who's buttoned up in there, or do they want to talk about them to the mortgage marketing guy who does it in the woods? That's how simple stupid this can be, right?

And I like that.

And if— and, and it's like, I can't even tell you how much he resisted doing that until one day he did it. Freaking sold his house, and now he's traveling in the woods in an RV, traveling on an RV, talking to like— and, and And it's working because it's a differentiator. It's different. It has nothing to do with, with what he's doing. Sometimes that's how stupid silly it can be.

Yeah, I love that. Um, Charles, seal of approval. Yeah, maybe while walking my dogs. I used to have a podcast that I did on this rooftop here called Mezcal and Sunsets, uh, because I'm in Oaxaca, right? So it's the only issues that not drinking anymore for age, biological age, uh, downgrading purposes.

Sure.

Um, another concept I shoot to my partner is like, go pick someone up in a nice luxury car, drive them around— a CEO, a founder, right? Do the podcast in the car. Yeah, that'd be quite different. Let him drive the fucking car, right? Like, let him have fun and, and step on it. Um, That's one I'm cooking, uh, although I really need to have a—

don't cook it, do it, stop cooking, do it.

Yeah, but dude, I'm in Oaxaca, there's no CEOs and founders in Oaxaca. Maybe in Mexico City, but even in Mexico City, it's like, pick them up. I need your mortgage guy, uh, to buy me something in, uh, in San Francisco. I guess San Francisco would be that place, and, and, or New York, right? And/or rent a place, I guess. But yeah, I've been building a family, so like bringing everybody along till I have my private jet will be like some kind of issue.

But so you can't do that, but there's, there's no problem thinking that way first and then scale back, see where that thinking leads you with other things. If all you're limited to is podcast and doing it this way Well, how could you make this different? How could, right? Like, like deal.

I done the Spark Tank stuff, which is like Shark Tank, right? But yet I'm open to hearing your thoughts as a creative guy, you know, like, you know what I'm up to, you know my, who my audience is, it's CEOs, founders, VCs, right? I'm the bridge in between them.

Let's do this. Like, wanna do this right now? Yeah, sure, go ahead.

Give me ideas.

See, you see what I'm talking about? This is a different, this, Have you had a podcast yet where anybody's been like, okay, let's make you the client. Here we go. Right?

Yeah, I did. But yeah, go ahead.

Okay. Okay. You have, but like, you see what I'm doing to myself here. Now, anybody who's listening or anybody who listens later is now going to lean in because now this guy's a little bit different. He's going to, he's going to, he's going to do this live. These guys got balls. I could say stupid stuff and, and people are going to be like, oh, this guy has no idea what he's talking about. So like, let's go. Let's, let's figure it out for you. Your audience is CEOs, VCs, right? Uh, founders. You're trying to get them into your, your program. You're trying to make them so that they connect with each other, etc., right? So, um, now you need to have the showmanship all throughout your system. It can't just be on the front part. It's also got to be in within the community. You got to keep the— do you you had, you know, the community going, like every single email interaction that you send. Like, for example, I'll tell you right now, the way that you send the emails about what you're doing, about like the meditation group and stuff like that, you might want to think about a way to make them come across a little bit more personal. If it takes a little bit more work, then I would 100%, you know, do that. Because right now it's like, I feel like I'm just getting like form letters from you. Like, yes, like, oh, you'll— oh, look who created a funnel.

Hey, let me give you two more angles. Uh, I'm done with the humor angle. I used to run, um, what's— what was it called? Founder Humor. Yeah, uh, sort of gave up because it wasn't like— I mean, I'm—

I—

it's a fun project, right? And you can go check it out. It's like satires of founder and CEO life. Um, and another idea I discussed today, so I don't need to be physically there. I have people, like, I have people working for me in cities that could do the luxury car stuff, and we could even rent it because most of them won't have cash to buy a luxury car. Um, and something I discussed today with a client of mine is private, private dinner masterminds, roundtables, right, with a bunch of CEOs and founders. Boring and applied on many levels by a lot of people, but yeah, just feeding you stuff like this, this could get somewhere, right? I can send these people do it even if I'm quote-unquote physically constrained.

So like, this is again something I talk about in newsletters and, and advice that I give. For example, like, how do you take boring news and make it exciting, right? And you can apply this to the concepts that you just said. So one of, one of, uh, one of, uh, a guy who I appreciate a lot in the publicity world, this guy Peter Shankman, he talks about this in his book called, um, Can We Do That? So he's like, he gives an example, like, okay, so you have a press release, like, you're moving from floor 5 to— that's boring news. So a good PR person will take that and spin that and say, because of record growth, we're— and, and because we're growing and we need more room, we're moving from floor 3 to floor 9 in our building. Okay, some people may cover that, some people not. You want to make sure everybody covers that. That's where a publicist comes in. That's where, uh, someone like me comes in and says, you know, we need to do— actually, um, what we're gonna do is before you move in, we're gonna hire like a hot local band and we're gonna throw a concert for the community in there to thank them for making it possible for us to, uh, you know, and we're going to invite clients and we're going to invite local people who live around the area and the mayor and this and that, and we're gonna— we're just gonna have a rocking good time.

Right?

And, uh, and, and it's going to cost money to go, but all the money is going to go to a local charity. Okay, now I just made your move more interesting by making it news that had nothing to do with your move, right? So you can take this concept and apply it to any single one of the ideas that you just said. Yeah, okay, a dinner roundtable has been used many, many times, and who the hell wants to sit and watch people eat and talk. Not very interesting unless— how can you amplify that? You turn that into a game, right? And I mean, the problem is, is this has been done already, but they have these things where they have these interviews with people talking about things while eating hot, hot peppers.

Yeah, yeah, I'm doing that with, uh, founderchess.com. So we're playing chess while, uh, they answer questions. So I'm like asking them questions, their brain is That's awesome.

That is a lot. I haven't seen that anywhere. Wait, who did that? Is that your idea? That's your idea?

Yeah, you're a genius. I mean, that's—

well, that's because, like, think about your audience. Your audience is smart people. I bet you they like chess. Yeah, yeah, right?

It's like a nice brain filter. All beasts that I work with that have money are doing this.

So why, why am I not playing chess with you right now?

But do you have a Chess.com account?

Um, no, probably not. But like, there you go. That's why from the very beginning, this should just be your thing. And that's the scary part. It's like doubling down on it. But here's the thing, you double down on it, you go down, you know, right? And then you do it and it doesn't work. So what? Get rid of it. You know what it means that it doesn't work? It means no one saw it anyway, so it doesn't matter. But I guarantee you that if you're like, hey, I want to invite you to my podcast. Okay, what's your podcast? Well, I interview you about, you know, what it's like being a founder and stuff like that while we play chess. I'm not— I don't know how to play chess. It doesn't really matter. I'll even help you with the moves and stuff, you know, like that's the whole point. Like, well, that's a little bit—

getting their ass wrecked is my pitch. I've never done that before. If they're better, it's like, you'll wreck my ass, and this— they'll still be pretty fun. To see live. There are challenges though, like it's way more entertainment than education because most people, and even I, I have like a pretty very decent brain, like we can't multitask while answering questions. So that's the distracting thing, you know, maybe in your room.

And but that's the challenge, that's in a way the challenge, and it is more entertainment. And but that's the thing I have a friend who is a, uh, a male coach. He, he, he helps men be men, right? He's very successful at what he does, right? He created— he, he was in the advertising world too, and he, and he, and he got into this, and he's very successful. And, and we're sitting— I'm sitting with him one day, and we're talking to somebody else who's interested in doing this, and they want both of our advice. My advice is very different than his because his advice He, he, he asked, he's like, you've seen my content? She's like, yeah. He's like, why do you think my content is so good and performs so well? And then she turns to me and she's like, Justin, why do you think his content performs so well and so good? And I look at him and I say, because he's an incredibly handsome guy. He works out. He always is sleeveless in his things. And he doesn't talk to men, he talks to women and says, is your man like this? I can fix your man, while looking like the man that they want him— they want their husbands to, to, to be, right? Um, and so I said— and then he, my friend, got so mad that I said this. He was so mad. He's like, I don't think that it's that at all. I think that I— it's because of the clarity of the things, the how clear I am, how clear my message is. And I said Well, clarity of your message is important, but there are 1,000 people saying the same exact thing you are in the same clear message that you are that aren't getting nearly the amount of hits or attention that you are. Don't ignore attention. Attention is, is, is— if without attention, it doesn't matter what you say or do or anything like that. And whatever it takes, whatever, whatever it is that gets you the attention, don't be like, well, that's not me, that's not on brand. And by the way, that's why I'm very against with any strategizing about your brand before you do it. The only way to build a personal brand is to start using it. That's the only way that you're going to know what your personal brand is. That's the way brands have always been built until branding agencies came around.

It's a super interesting case study, right? Because your friend— I would think that most men, especially if they're bitches, um, there would, they would be like, yeah, they would hear their women tell you like, hey, I saw this guy, instant, instant jealousy, I would say. And like, even like 0% chance of conversion unless they lack like manliness and like straight up, right? Like they're more like beta type and they're open-minded. But even that would be weird because that wouldn't make a bad husband. Like usually open-minded and beta folks, they're the best husbands. They're— they listen to— yeah, or maybe that's why. Maybe it's like an abusive fucking woman and be like, hey, hey bitch, go, go see this guy.

Yeah, yeah, go see this guy and be more man.

Another weird dynamic, like they refer their men to this guy. It's a bit weird, right? It's like if they want their man to be like this guy. Anyway, it's certainly fascinating.

It's worth— he also creates content for men, and what do the men see? They see a good-looking guy charisma, and they also want to be like him. Either way, it has to do with him and his charisma more than it has to do with a single word that he's saying. People do not respond to the words that you say. The first— right, they say the first thing somebody does when they see you, it's not about what you say. They look at you. Are you dressed? How are you dressed? Are your shoes polished? But like, all of these things register within 3 or sec— within 3 seconds, people have made an opinion about you.

And then there was this guy with long hair that was getting on all podcasts, uh, I think like 4 years ago. I think he's sort of gone, he's faded into darkness or whatever, but he had like these, uh, purple, uh, pants, you know, like these sticky tight pants and with long hair, and he, he wore like leopard stuff, and I think he was like a men's coach or something like that, so I think, yeah, that would be my front-end funnel if I would be in that space, would be like humor, right? And self-deprecation rather than—

oh, self-deprecation is very, very powerful tool.

I mean, one last concept for you before, before we leave, because I know we're both on time here. Um, I told you about Spark Tank. Uh, I think, yeah, this one's definitely scaling. Founder Chess, I, yeah, probably need your help or your advice on that. VC Poker on Friday. This one so far is a big hit, VC Poker. So every Friday I meet with top VCs, and we have Ray Furst, which, uh, was the founder and CEO of, uh, Full Tilt Poker. By the way, he would be a great client of yours.

Um, and he won a couple—

he won a couple of bracelets, right? Like a World Star, uh, Bracelets or World Series Poker bracelet. And yeah, it's just VCs chit-chatting like roundtable style while playing poker. This one I'm more bullish about because we have time thinking and talking till it's our turn.

So, so it's competitive as fuck, right?

Because being a VC is about taking bets. So it's smart, it's really smart.

So people can watch, they don't have to play, they can just watch.

No, that's, that's one thing. This is private because VCs are sort of private people. And I'm again, like, I'd love to hear your opinion on that, but I might film them if I get their approval, of course. Right. But so far it's private.

It's great. Create two versions of it, one of them.

Yes.

And then because I would love to sit, can you imagine sitting there and being able to listen against Ray first? No, well, I'm not playing, just sitting and listening to VCs playing poker and the things that they'll talk about, because we all know that's where the deals are made, that's where the secrets are made. I would pay $1,000 a year to have access to that.

I mean, you're the Stripe League.

But maybe, like, if I were really— we're trying to raise money, I'd pay money to listen to VCs play poker with each other and here be— have access to the things that they talk about. And maybe that's the protection for the VC part, is saying like, um, no, people are paying. I— people are going to pay to join, and I will pay you. I will give you money to play poker, right? Yes. Like that, that they might—

we're about to make it competitive, by the way. We're about to—

but they're about like, what do I think? They might say like, what do I need the money for? Or whatever. But like, the point is, you turn it into something like that, and you'll have some that be like, no, I can't, I can't, because of whatever. And then you'll, you'll find out— like, that's the thing, you'll find who the showmen are, right? You'll— like, you get Ray Dalio on there because that guy loves to be in front of a camera, right? You, you'll— like, because you don't want the, the ones that are not willing to do this. You only want to put the showmen. You're like, you got to think of yourself as a media company now. Right? As a— right? And media companies, they audition. You know, when actually— when, when a client comes to me, I call it an audition. I'm very clear with them. They come to me, they get on a call, they think they're interviewing me, and I said right off the bat, I want you to know this is an audition. I don't accept anybody. I need to know right off the bat whether or not you're going to work or not. And I could tell me— almost I can tell within a minute whether or not somebody has what it takes in order to really put themselves out there. And I've been wrong once, and, um, and it was a disaster. But like, within a minute, within a minute, I can say like, okay, you're— you got an interesting look. You don't have to be hot or beautiful, but you have an interesting look. You talk interestingly. You make gesticulations. You have a unique thing about you. You You have interesting ideas, you have interesting perspectives. I can work with that. I can't work— I can't make a star. I can't make something from nothing. So you have to keep that in mind too. So you could have like your private thing and say, hey, if any of you are interested, I'm gonna do this public thing. And then you will attract the people who are attracted to that. And those people are generally people who are not afraid to shake things up and perform and do, do the job that you need them to do.

Yeah, like that. Hey, let's close this up, bring this to an end. Where can people find out more about you, Justin?

So you can find me on right now just on LinkedIn, linkedin.com/in/justinoberman. Or Substack, which is substack.oberman.com, or Stan Store, which is stan.store/justinoberman, where I have my course that I have on mastering the art of personal publicity. And it is like, it's not one of these courses that's like upselling you. I just packed everything in there. And we have some interesting ones coming out very soon. About, um, a copy hunter guide which will teach you how to take any AI slop and make it sound human without using it.

Justin and Charles