Kady Pooler-Quigless - Founder and CEO Pickle Athletics

Welcome to another Founder Wisdom Podcast. We have Katie Puller-Quickless with us today. She's creating a community at Pickle Athletics. It's a nice little pickleball facility in San Francisco, has other amenities, right? The cold plunge, you told me, Katie.

No cold plunge, but we have a sauna, gym, game room.

Yeah. Why did you start that? Tell us a bit more about yourself.

Yeah, I mean, I think there's, there's always like a long story to everything, and I'll try my best to not do it too long. But the, the past is basically I was a, I was a tennis player. I played tennis my whole life, literally since I was 4 years old. Um, played professionally and then coached for a little bit as well. Um, I kind of had this moment of like I wanted to be more than tennis, and so I did what most people do here in the Bay Area, and I went and worked for a few tech companies. I thought the startup kind of world was really cool. I liked that people were working on problems. And I think versus going into like a big corporate job, I kind of got to wear a lot of different hats and use my brain and creativity. And so I did that for several years as well. And I liked it. But I think at the end of the day, I kept coming home and I wasn't aligned. And my whole life, my mom, anybody who knows me well, my wife, everybody's always said like, Work in sports. I see you working in sports. I'm like, yeah, that's great. So do I. I want to work in sports. But like, for me, that was kind of like, okay, go be a GM of like an NBA team. Well, you can't just walk into that. Like, so it's like, well, where do I start? And I didn't want to go and, you know, sell tickets. Again, nothing to that. But at this point, I had 2 young kids and the basketball games, you know, are 4 games a week, 7 PM. So that was not the lifestyle I was trying to live. And kind of in that time, I had some friends reach out to me and ask if I want to play pickleball. As any kind of elitist tennis player does, I was like, no, not interested. That's not a real sport. And then I was kind of getting out of shape and bored because for me, I didn't want to play tennis. I didn't really want to go to the gym. I like to play. And so I finally said yes to somebody. I went out and like the first time everybody's like, oh, I was hooked the first time I played. For me, the first time I played, it was fun, and I was like, cool, yeah, I would do it again. It wasn't until like I started to play a few more times that I definitely got the bug. It eventually became to where I was playing pickleball every single day for like 3 to 4 hours a day, and then I was playing pro pickleball tournaments. The tournaments are all across the country, and you're gone for like a period of days. Well, as I mentioned, I have 2 young kids and a wife at home, and so my wife was like, hey, I love that you found a passion again. It's so cool to see you lit up and, you know, to see you have some fire in your belly. But like, you can't be traveling all the time and, you know, gone. And I was like, yeah, that's totally fair, say less. So she actually challenged me and was like, is there something you can do as a job, as a career in pickleball? And so it's kind of like, you know, I think where most people start, right? You look for problem solution. For me, it was twofold. There's the problem of infrastructure, right? Supply demand. They say it's the fastest growing sport in the country, but yet there's still not enough courts to keep up with that demand. So we provide the infrastructure. But I think the second problem is the one that honestly gets me up every day. And for me, that is lack of community. I think we live in a world where it is like very hard for people to come together face to face. We have that human connection, especially where we're present and like not on our phones or technology. And so that, I believe, is what we're really solving. And, and again, that's the one that kind of makes me happiest.

I can relate to pretty much all of this. Uh, let's start with your career in tennis, right? Like, how were your parents? Uh, did they introduce you to tennis? How much did you like tennis, right? I guess you got pretty obsessed with it, but at this age, it's most of the time to please your parents, right? Look, Mommy, look, Daddy, I can win stuff. And did you get to hate it in the end? Because you said you didn't want to play tennis anymore.

Yeah, a lot of— there's a lot of questions there. I'll try to unpack all of it. But, um, so yeah, I think like the story goes, you know, I don't remember when I was 4 years old. Like, I barely remember before I was 10. So the story goes, you know, that my dad signed me up for a tennis class. I apparently liked it and, you know, asked to go again. I do remember, like, I know at age 7 is when I I started to take it really seriously and like actually playing tournaments and training every single day. And then I have vivid, vivid memories of being, you know, a young kid and like dreaming to win the US Open. Like I idolized Steffi Graf. That was who I wanted to be. Um, I mean, setting my alarm for 5 AM in like the 3rd grade to go run hill sprints, like very dedicated, very focused. That was the goal. So I think like to the other question about like parents, my dad introduced me to it. My mom was honestly kind of like almost oblivious to the whole thing. She was a single mom and like working her ass off. So she was not really a part of my tennis. She helped to fund it. She was kind of like the person that was helping to, you know, pay for my private lessons or be able to go to the tournaments. But it wasn't like she was really coming to the matches or practices, certainly not. And then my dad would take me to most of them, but he was not your typical, like, uh, tennis parent, you know. He did not push me. I, like, I just have no memories of him ever, like, yelling at me, pushing me, anything of that sort. He just kind of took me where I needed to go. Um, so it really was a lot of just intrinsic motivation. And then to the last part, like, did I ever hate tennis?

Yeah, absolutely.

It was like, you know, even while I was playing, there was times where it was like, you know, you— I think, I think every athlete goes through that. Maybe I'm wrong, but where it's like, you know, you want to quit. Um, and it's maybe because you had some bad losses in a row, or like you feel like your game's getting worse, or you're not seeing the success. Um, but like, I think the love of the game always did outweigh those kind of temporary blips. Um, and so I obviously always came back to it. And now it's funny because when I finished, I, I definitely had this weird love-hate with it. But ultimately, like, tennis has given me my whole life. It has created me into who I am. Like, all of the skills, abilities, memories, experiences, like, pretty much all come from tennis. And so I'm so grateful for that, and I could never hate that.

The inner game of tennis, right? So you're against an opponent and sort of playing a chess match. How did you When were you first made aware of your mindset and the impact that it had, uh, on you winning games as a young person?

I think from a really, really young age. And the thing is, I don't even remember how. It's not like I don't remember a conversation or a thing, but again, it's just weird. Like, I remember, I remember being a younger, younger kid and like my mom would take us to the bookstore Barnes& Noble, like when it still existed, and that was my favorite. I just thought it was so cool to go to this bookstore. It was like all this knowledge was just right there. And, you know, we were allowed to pick out one book, so we would spend a couple hours though walking through every aisle and like opening them up, and I would read some. But from even a young age, like, I always gravitated towards nonfiction, self-improvement. And I remember being like, you know, 11 years old at night reading The 7 Habits of Highly Effective Teens and like with my highlighter taking notes and like from that young age, like wanting To improve, to be better.

When did you knew you were really good, right? Like when when did you were like oh shit I can again scale in there and ultimately at what at what time did you have your expecting expectations broken, right? Because so competitive that sport there's always someone better than you. Always give me these these two. When you knew you were very good and, um, the moment you knew that maybe not.

Yeah. You know what's funny is like thinking about it, I don't even know if honestly it's like weird. I don't know if I've ever had in that moment the moment of, oh, I'm really good, which maybe actually like kind of hurt me in some ways. Like I think that I never walked out on the court being like, you know, I don't know, like I am the best. I guess I kind of knew it and there was like, I just, I did expect to win. almost up to certain parts of a tournament. It's kind of like, of course I'm going to win the first few rounds. And that wasn't even a mindset, I think it's just like expectations. And then once I would get to maybe like the quarter, semifinals, depending on who I was playing. So it's interesting you bring that up because part of me actually, when I think about that, like maybe I wish that I would have actually been told, hey, you're great, like you, you have something.

Um, all the best athletes are like super delusional, almost on a megalomaniac Mania scale of things. Just yesterday I was watching the Michael Jackson movie, right? And it's pretty obvious that this guy was full of himself. And I'm saying that probably in a good way. Most of our best founders and CEOs also are very much positive about themselves, have delusions of grandeur and all of that. I think it's important. But yeah, I think you embodied it. You just knew statistically that this was going to happen. Then what happened once you faced like very tough opponents? Did your mindset change back then, or—

Yeah, and that's probably— I mean, so, and again, thinking about it, like, it's this twofold thing where it's also like at a young age I also knew that I was like better than most of my opponents. But I think that also just comes to, like I said, I was putting in the work. So there is certain like, um, confidence that comes in with putting in the work, but I don't think I was able to correlate those. But then also too, I remember I think I was probably 16 and I made it to the finals of, um, Orange Bowl, which is like a huge international tournament. Um, like anybody who's a pro now played the Orange Bowl and it's like, you know, probably did well in it. And so I think that's when also too it kind of clicked for me of like, oh, okay, like I can compete at a higher level, upper like level skill. But again, it wasn't like I left that being like I'm one of the best, you know, it's just, it's kind of weird. It's a really interesting question I'll probably be thinking about for the rest of the day.

It's almost impossible to scale at the top of these sports, right? When you think about it, matter of fact, any popular sport, maybe pickleball is different because it's a new sport. Would you agree with that? Like, for example, golf and Tiger Woods at top of PGA, so hard. Study any NFL, Athletes or tennis athletes, it's so hard, right? Like to make it to the top, you need to have pretty much everything going right pretty much all the time. I mean, you started young, which is very important, I think. But do you think pickleball is different? Do you think someone can start and become very good from scratch? Or do tennis players like you have an advantage on them?

I mean, tennis players definitely have an advantage. I think, you know, tennis, even if you were like badminton, ping pong, etc., like if you come from a high level of a paddle racket in your hand, you're gonna have an advantage. Do I think that the next players can be homegrown pickleballers? Yes, and we're seeing it now. Like I was just watching earlier this morning, there's like 2 15-year-olds playing some of the top pros and like holding their own. So maybe they have a little bit of tennis background, but, you know, can't be a lot. And I think we're like seeing it more even just from our own demand here where, you know, folks are asking, they're like, I want to get my kid into pickleball, and you're starting to middle school pickleball teams and high school teams. So I think eventually it's going to be pickleballers.

Tell me how that sport came about, right? And give me some statistics if you can. Like, I don't know, I think it started around what, 2010? Pickleball?

No, it was actually way sooner than that. I think it's a misnomer. People think it was later. It was like in the '60s or something. And I don't know, I would have to look this up. But it Like, it was— it's been around for a really long time. I know it was like created in the PNW, I think Seattle somewhere specifically. But it's been around forever.

It's—

the pandemic definitely helped it to boom. And I think the thing is, it's, it's super addicting because it's a low barrier to entry. So like, anybody can go and play pickleball their first day going out. I see this every single day here. Whereas like, right, like you take something like tennis, in order to be able to have a rally with somebody, you will have to play literally for a couple years, multiple times a week, hours before you can literally go and have a rally. And it's still probably not like a very pretty rally. Pickleball, day one, you're out here, you're already hitting, you're dinking. And so it's kind of like, oh, I can be good at this. I'm good at this. And so people, I think, keep chasing that when it's like the ability to kind of like get a little bit better. And it is funny because I think in pickleball, a lot of people think they actually are better than they are because of that kind of low barrier.

Right? It's like a ping pong racket, right? So the surface area is less weird than a tennis racket, which has a shaft, which is like a blank zone in the brain, right? And then starts the The, the hitting zone, is, is that why the, the net is, I think, a bit higher in tennis? Is it like, why is tennis so complicated?

I mean, I think it's the court is so much bigger, the equipment. It's funny because now when I go and I pick up a tennis racket, like, I feel like I'm picking up a hammer. It feels literally like a sledgehammer in my hand, and I'm like, how do I, like, how do I actually even swing this? Oh my God, it's so heavy. Whereas, right, when I was a tennis player, I mean, I'm whipping that thing around.

Yeah.

And so it's like the— I think it comes down to the equipment, the size of the court, but just also the technique. Pickleball, you're kind of just like— it's like a dink, you know, like anybody can kind of make contact and hit that ball over. It's a bigger ball, um, you know, it's a wiffle ball. Um, but tennis, you have this whole court that you are having to like cover and actually move to With a bigger stroke. Uh, I don't think the size of the ball matters, but also this bigger piece of equipment in your hand.

Right. And how much courts in the US would you say? Like, uh, multiple thousands?

Oh, for sure. Yeah. I mean, you have, you have places when you go to like Florida, Texas, whatever, I mean, that have 30, 40 courts.

That's a lot. And our day— I have a client that has his own private, uh, Pickleball courts, are these like mostly privately operated? What's the business of pickleball and how different is it from operating tennis courts?

Yeah, I mean, yes, I think that we're starting to see a lot more private pickleball courts. It's kind of like the cool thing to have. And I think for folks who like to play all the time, I mean, that's like you want the friend who has the pickleball court. You don't have to wait in line at a public park. They're usually quite nice. You still have like the nice amenities of a bathroom and whatnot. And I think the business of pickleball, I mean, it's still kind of TBD, right? Like, there's a lot of people are still trying to even still questioning, like, is it a fad? Is it a trend? And I think that we have personally gotten past that. Like, I think we have proven, like, it's not a fad or a trend. I am certain it's here to stay. And I see that again, like, the amount of people that come into the club that have never played and are now just getting introduced and playing for their first time, it's still very strong.

Facilities, basics, right? Like $30,000 to have your own pickleball court, something like that. Yeah, you have the net, you have some maintenance. Yeah, like you need to change, you need the space, not to mention, right? A lot of people face real estate. You need the rackets are Are pretty cheap, right? Like, uh, and the balls and all that.

You would think you can definitely get cheap paddles, but my goodness, when you start to look in the market of that, I mean, the higher-end paddles are like $280 each. Yeah, I mean, that's like comparable to tennis rackets, you know? And people are going through paddles, I think, faster than tennis rackets.

Whether they're trying to better business than just sell rackets.

So no, and I thought about it, to be honest, when I was first looking at kind of problems, but It's such a saturated market. I can— there's probably, I mean, I'm just making this up, but there's probably like easily 300 different brands of paddles.

Yeah, for sure. Okay. And then you put a roof on that so that, uh, I don't know, you can have more plays 20% of the time. Is it 24 hours as well?

Our club?

No, we're open 8:00 AM to 10:00 PM. Okay. Why not open it 24 hours and have it self-serve?

Good question. Yeah, there's— there are a lot of clubs that do do that. For us, the big thing is I like— my number one principle here is hospitality. And so, um, right, if you're— if no one's here to greet you or to make you a smoothie or, you know, help answer your question or whatever it is, like, that it lacks the human touch and the hospitality. And again, like, that's something I stand really big on here is that community focus. I want face-to-face human interaction.

Right. And it's $100 per hour, the general cost of the court?

$60 an hour for a private court.

Okay, interesting. Do you get discount if you're a member or something?

Yeah, that's right. So, uh, we basically utilize like a punch system. And so you can, you know, we have our drop-in rates and they— those equate to punches. Um, and then memberships purchase a certain amount of punches and it's essentially discounted. And you can apply those punches to— like, I think what makes us actually different is we have a lot of different programming throughout the day. So a lot of facilities, it's like you just book the court and maybe they have a couple classes. We have like a coached class almost all day long, whether it's working on a specific skill or you're actually playing matches and the coach is coaching you throughout it, a group lesson. Like, we're constantly trying to help to make the players better.

And you have 2 courts, right?

4.

Okay, 4. Nice. And one is fully dedicated only to coaching classes?

Yeah, I mean, it is pretty much booked all day, but, you know, we'll kind of move stuff around depending. Um, the one that's like the coaching court is also a pretty commonly requested, uh, private event court. So we do a lot of birthday parties, corporate events, um, baby showers, like you name it. And really, the single court is kind of like a private court. It also has this attached cabana to it that we decorated nicely, and it has a boardroom, a board table, TV. So it also gets rented out for events.

Got it. And we'll get to the community part. I just want to get the economics right. In a membership, do I pay monthly to get my memberships? Like a couple hundred bucks per month or?

Yeah. So our lowest tier, we call it our Clubhouse. It's $99. It gives you 8 punches. And basically you can think about it as if you are going to rent a court all by yourself for an hour, it's 4 punches. So a punch is like $15. So the clubhouse level basically allows you to book a court for 2 hours and then you're kind of, you know, saving like $20. Memberships also give access to our gym, our members-only shower. And so it's like all the amenities also are available for members included. Our middle package is $189 and that the punches are like doubled. You get 16 punches. And then also 4 specific punches for open play. Open play is basically where it's like we block a court, folks sign up, and they come and they just get a lot of matches in rotating around. Got it.

Do you have tournaments also? Competitions?

We do. And that's one thing that's like literally— actually, if you even see my board behind me, that's like my stack list of a lot of different competitions and things I want to list. There's definitely demand. It's what people want. The part that is hard for me is I basically am like a one woman show running kind of everything. So not only do we have the pickleball and like the pickleball club, but we also have a cafe. And that's— I have no experience in restaurants, cafes, anything of that sort. So that takes a lot of my time because I'm learning. But I'm basically running 2 businesses in one. And as I mentioned, it's a high human touch. And I really value hospitality. So every single, you know, text message, email, WhatsApp, it comes to me. Um, which then, you know, some of my days admittedly, and I hate it, I can just get stuck in email all day long. Yeah, probably not a good use of my time. I'm trying to figure that out. Um, but yeah, like—

AI can probably solve that in the messaging part. Like you can write with your style and then, but yeah, I know you're pretty obsessed about like, uh, customer support and all of that, but you can check it, right? Like, uh, Before it goes out. And yeah, long— lo and behold, before you realize it replies better than you, faster than you, and all that. Um, okay, so how much employees right now? Like 2 or 3?

Well, I think we have about 8, and then maybe like 10 or 11 if you include our coaches. Uh, yeah, part-time. So, you know, we call them PA associates, um, because they are— they're kind of— they are really unicorns. They are not only the person who, you know, is checking in our guests and answering their questions, doing maybe the tour, but they are also the person who's making the smoothies, making the sandwich or salad, and like really managing that whole kind of kitchen bar area.

Got it. Do you— will you have like a daycare as well so that parents can drop their kids?

And so funny you asked this.

Free of mind.

It is, it is a heavily requested, uh, feature, and we do have this upstairs room. So like right now I'm sitting upstairs. We have about 3,000 square feet upstairs of right now just like empty offices. And so intentionally we waited. We're, we're in about month 10 right now, and we waited because we want to see like what do our members want, like what's requested. Um, and I have this big room that we have thought about turning into a kids playroom and offering babysitting. It's just still TBD because I'm not, you know, it— there's other liabilities that go along with that. And I think a lot of folks really like the upscale, kind of like high-end feel of the club. And once we start to kind of have kids running around, it does diminish that a little bit. So yeah, it's like a—

See the kids, if it's well designed, they won't even see them.

Yeah, fair point. Yeah.

Um, have people lost a lot of weight, like subscribing, is that a good way to— for them to just gain back their health?

I mean, I don't know in terms of like, I'm not— I don't necessarily, you know, ask members or look at them, but I can just say from my own self, like when I was playing, uh, every day, because the irony is like now I don't play anymore that I own a club, um, I was probably in the best shape that I had been in for sure since I was a pro tennis player. And my wife is always like the first to tell me that too. I mean, just my legs were trimmer, leaner. like midsection. Um, but I, I think like pickleball, it checks so many boxes in one because yes, like it is, it is a cardiovascular game. Like you sweat a lot, your heart rate definitely gets up. Um, you're doing lateral movements, you're staying low the whole time, so you're working a lot of muscles. So you're getting the physical fitness. Absolutely. For me, it's also the mental health where it's like I'm actually getting to use my brain There's a study, so, but I don't— don't quote me on it, but it's like when you play, you know, racket sports, paddle sports, like you live longer. And again, I don't know this, but my guess is it's because you're having to use your brain, you're strategically thinking. And that's the thing I love about pickleball is it's a cat-mouse game. It's literally playing chess but like getting able to be physical with it. I'm constantly thinking 3 shots ahead, like Okay, if I hit this ball here, they're probably going to hit it here, which allows me to hit it here, and then I'll get this shot, and then I can put that one away. Um, but then it's also social, like you get to be with your friends. You're— it's just, it's all the things in one. So like in 2 hours, I feel like I've checked most of my boxes in a day.

In the community aspect with pickleball, right, like there's lots of chemicals being released when you play these sports and you, you laugh But sometimes you book with your friends, right? So do you need to ask guys on the other court to play 2v2? What's the— how do you make sure that like people that don't know each other actually play against each other and ultimately make friends?

I think that's where the open plays are beautiful because again, we do it kind of by skill level. So you know that you're signing up with folks that are around your level and then we cap it at 8 people. It's 2.5 hours long. So within that 2.5 hours with 8 people, they're getting a lot of rotations. And you don't need to know anybody. You can literally sign up on your own and then you're coming and you're meeting 7 other people. And so I've seen that a lot where people will come, like, or even in our coached programs, they sign up, there's, you know, 5, 6 other people there, they meet new people, and then you start to see them book where it's kind of like, and I see it on the WhatsApp, you know, hey, anybody want to play tomorrow at 2? Like, I'll book a court. And then friendships are formed and now, you know, you get your regulars and it's cool. And then I see people hanging out. at, you know, each other's homes that never knew each other before here.

Yeah, yeah. Well, thanks for coming on, Katie. Where can, uh, people find out more about you?

Uh, yeah, I mean, me personally, I'm on Instagram, Kay Pooler. Um, actually it might be Katie Pooler. Um, but they can go to pickleathletics.com or follow, follow us on Instagram, Pickle Athletics. Um, everything's there.