Megan Eskey - Founder of Reloquence

Welcome to another Founder Wisdom pod. We have Megan Eskey with us today. She's a founder and CEO at Reloquents, uh, next NASA, uh, building a very interesting business mapping out, uh, places like Mars and the moon. So we're gonna talk about what she's building today. Megan, welcome to the pod. Tell us a bit more about yourself.

Thank you. Um, yes, I'm Megan Eskey. I am a semi-retired computer engineer from NASA. I was at NASA for almost 30 years and then started a company oddly and differently in retirement. After I had my retirement from NASA, I came up with what I thought was an awesome idea and wanted to pursue it from the standpoint of entrepreneurship. So my company is Reliquents, and Reliquents is mapping roads on the Moon and Mars. So what I've been able to do so far is get a proof of concept of that. And I worked with an Oregon-based mapping company called Fjord Innovations. And we have, as far as I can tell from my research, we have beat everybody in the history of the world to the map. So we have made the first map of the first roads in space. And it's quite spectacular. So here it is. And I'm not sure how to best display this, but what you see here is a grayscale Moon, and these are flyouts. And so these are the first 3 roads that we have charted. And it's based on a planetary address framework that I came up with that allows you to identify point locations on the Moon and Mars using low-slope routes and quadrangles. And quadrangles are a cartographic concept, but it's very similar to how we identify home addresses on Earth, which are based on a system of roads.

That's fascinating. Um, let's start with your background though, like 26 years at NASA. What was your, your role there?

Um, well, I, I joined NASA when I was 21. I had an engineering degree, mechanical engineering, from the University of Southern California. And they started me off in aeronautical engineering, advanced aircraft. So I worked on B-style aircraft, mostly simulations and design. And then eventually I moved into AI, and I spent my 20s and maybe early 30s, mostly 20s, doing AI research in an area called explanation-based learning. And then sometime in 1990s, uh, the internet boom, Netscape had their IPO. I was in Silicon Valley. NASA Ames is in Silicon Valley. And so I moved over from AI to web services, which is not research, which is an operational area. And I stayed in web services for the rest of my career and eventually started to have entrepreneurial ideas. Not too surprisingly, you're surrounded by so many smart people in Silicon Valley. And eventually decided it was time to do my own thing.

And I saw you were in artificial intelligence at some point, is that correct?

What?

You were in artificial intelligence at some point in the 1987, so that's pretty OG.

Yeah, way, way back when I did my AI stint.

And what did that look like back then?

Well, I worked with— I mean, let's just give credit where credit is due. I worked with some of the smartest people in the world, and the AI lab was world-class. And I had a senior researcher that I was working with, and he had done something at Carnegie Mellon that he brought into NASA Ames, and it was software. It was something called explanation-based learning. Just all different kinds of models of learning for planning and scheduling. We had a whole area for planning and scheduling. And he eventually took that software and spun it off into a company and sold it, I think, to PeopleSoft. But I stayed behind at NASA. And one of the reasons that I stayed behind at NASA is I'm kind of more of that idea person. I'm not really an entrepreneur. I'm really more of the innovator, you know, the idea lady. And so I would love to find more entrepreneurial people to help me. So Series A, Series B, I've never done any of that. I'm a first-time entrepreneur, but I do have a long history of the academic side of space and space research.

And why is mapping out the moon or Mars important?

Well, one thing that's happening right now, I don't know how many of the audience knows this, but we're going back to the moon for the first time in nearly 50 years, more than 50 years, I think. And there's a big push towards space development. So I have a YouTube channel. I have a website. You can go find out more on my social media accounts. And I presented initially at International Space Development Conference in Los Angeles in 2024. So there's a whole body of, of, uh, YouTubes and things that you can read about, and it is just a, a big push in the international space community to develop the Moon and Mars in lots of different ways, and roads are quite fundamental to that.

The roads themselves— what is the algorithm you've created for that, and how does that compare with deciding where the roads will be on planet Earth and in municipalities, for example?

Well, yeah, great question. So it's really different because there are no roads there. This is— when I stumbled onto this, I thought, oh my God, I have just hit the intellectual jackpot because nobody else is playing in this space. Space robotics is what I'm calling it. And if this is a whole new field of study. So even though I do have a pitch deck and I do have a model for a fundable business with revenue streams, etc., that is just one tiny piece of the concept of space robotics. There's room for, you know, 100 companies and research happening at universities. It's really a wide open space and nobody's doing anything in it, which is really cool. So think of space robotics as the umbrella concept. And so before you do anything in the world of space development, you need to make the maps. And so my algorithm is quite simple. It's just start with the idea of an address, your home address. Think of your home address. And your home address is, you know, your house number. It's a street. It's a city. It's a state. It's a country. And then there's a zip code at the end. So we don't have cities and states, we don't have any of that, but we have something called quadrangles. And some of the quadrangles have names and some of the quadrangles have numbers. So I just borrowed the idea, and so now you can create an address on the Moon and Mars based on these named quadrangles which exist, and, um, they're called lunar astronomical charts. And those are the numbers, and you just append them all together and you're going to find a point location, but you need the roads for that. You know, your home address has a road associated with it.

Is there like— I mean, you can't put like addresses pretty much anywhere in like zones that are not habitable. Um, what about the road's efficiencies, right? Like from point A to point B, like, is that factored in?

Yeah. Exactly. So that's where we come into the cartographic tools, the map-making tools. And there are a number of them out there that you can get that are actually open source, something called QGIS. And we're just using off-the-shelf models that have been used, you know, for generations to make roads on Earth. But what we did is we downloaded that open data from NASA and pulled it into QGIS. And used a very simple algorithm, just low-slope routes. You know, I think it's least-cost analysis is what it's called in the cartographic circles, and it's just the lowest slope. So if you think about that logically, that means you're going to stay out of deep craters and you're going to stay away from high mountains and you're going to just go where it's flat. And, and the reason you need to do that is because you're going to have to go fast. So one of the challenges with space robotics is that our autonomous rovers are quite slow. And the reason they're slow is because they have to communicate with Earth back and forth. And so they go a little ways, and then they communicate. And so they're coming up with all these new ways of kind of doing something like GPS in space so they can just keep going and go fast. And there are a lot of teams out there looking at increasing the speed of those rovers. That's why we chose the low slopes, because that'll make it easier for those fast rovers to get from point A to point B.

And so the full surface of the moon is mapped, right? And that was done like decades ago. Is that what you're saying?

Yeah. So aircraft— or not, spacecraft orbiting the moon took enough photos to create these maps.. And the data is downloadable. It's open data. Anyone can do it. You just have to know about it and you have to know how to do it. And, um, and I, I kind of ended my career at NASA in 2012 doing, um, something called open government, which was all about open data and open source. And so this is just like right up my alley. It's so cool. And, um, the fact that we were actually able to— I was able to do this thing in retirement is amazing to me because if you think about startup companies in space, who do you think of when you think about a startup company in space?

SpaceX.

Yes. And so how much money did Elon need to get started, right, with a rocket company, hardware rocket company? A lot of money. And guess what?

Why don't they do what you're doing then if it's so cheap?

I don't know. It's a mystery to me. And another part of the mystery is, um, Why didn't somebody do this long before now? Because there's no technical barrier to this. It's not like you can't— you couldn't have done that back in the day when they had telescopes and they were naming all the, you know, the features on the moon, the landforms. And that was in the 1600s when they were naming the landforms. They could have drawn some lines and called them a road. It just— I think from a practical standpoint, there was no need for it. And so nobody did it. And so it's really only now that we're starting to think about, you know, building— seriously thinking about putting people on the moon for extended periods of time. And then the roads become more realistic as opposed to just a fantasy. And so, you know, they could have done it back in the Apollo era, but Apollo was eventually defunded. So The time to have done that would have been towards the end of Apollo, Apollo 15, 16, 17, and then Apollo ended.

Right. And why are we seeking to get to the moon again? Is it because it's a short distance and it's easier than other planets? Is there also like, um, yeah, what's the possibility that we establish life on the moon in like the next decades?

I think a very high probability, and I think Elon Musk is going to tell you sooner rather than later. He's looking at this and he has the funds to do it. That's the problem with a lot of this is that NASA funding is very tight. And so unless you tap into military funding, DOD funding, um, you really aren't going to be able to get there. So the entrepreneurial model is kind of this breath of fresh air where you can tap into a whole new source of funding to do what you want to do. And that's one of the things that struck me as I started moving forward with this. You know, yeah, I could go after NASA funding and chase it down like everybody else in the world and be completely ignored because everybody wants that money. Or I could come up with something that was entrepreneurial, you know, find myself the seasoned— what I really want is this experienced co-founder who has already done this kind of thing and has all those connections in Silicon Valley, because that, that's what I don't have.

And we briefly talked about the monetization aspect of this. Like, I mean, you're not on the moon, right? You can't claim the rights to it. I guess SpaceX, as soon as they step on, they'll start mapping it out and making the urban planning part of it. Wouldn't that be the logical step, like plant a physical flag and then like claim the rights to the full map?

So the way things typically work in science and research is you don't do that physical thing as a first step. That is the last step. That's the endgame. And what you do leading up to the endgame is a lot of simulations. You know, you do a lot of what-if scenarios. How would that look? It's all kind of on paper. It's all digitized. It's all— it's all a model that you work with in the computer long before you actually go up there. And try to build those roads. So these digital maps would eventually, hopefully become the de facto standards, at which point we would think about really making those space roads. But long before that happens, we can have these maps just be possibilities, simulations. They could even be— my monetization model includes taking a completed map, a map that we feel was complete with roads from all the different— all the big players, everybody who's landed on the Moon already. So that's China, Russia, India, Japan, and the United States. There are only 5 countries who've ever actually landed a spacecraft on the Moon. United States is the only company— country that's landed people on the Moon. And then we'd have to pull in ESA because they're doing a lot of stuff with really fast rovers, autonomous rovers. They're kind of leading the way there. So let's just say 6 different stakeholders, and then you could start just by having a completed map. Now you can license that map. So who are you going to license that map to? Well, you could license the map to Elon, and Elon could use it, but he's probably not your, your low-hanging fruit. Your low-hanging fruit are probably places like game companies. So one of the goals is to make sure that this map is distributed as widely as you can, get that map in front of as many people as you can. And if you think about the gaming community and how many people are playing these space-themed games, that's probably the way to get it in front of the most people, like, immediately. All the young kids would be playing these games and they'd be looking at these maps. And that's how something becomes a de facto standard— when it's distributed and it's being used and everybody is agreeing on it. So I would start with the game companies as my, um, ideal customer.

And okay, so license the map, it's a 3D map that they can use in their video games, is that correct?

Correct.

Or you can claim that it's a real map, that's their advantage, right? And not some random made-up map.

Or realistic anyway. It's a realistic map of the Moon and Mars with a lot of thought gone into where to put those roads. And I have already kind of identified, um, 32 roads on the Moon and Mars, 24 on the Moon and 8 on Mars, based on research that NASA has already done in terms of optimal landing sites. So where—

these are highways or what?

Um, uh, they can be short roads, they can be long roads, they can be roads that are just designed to kind of chart out a little area to mine the Moon. There's all kinds of ways of approaching this. I tried to choose a variety of types of roads, lengths, as well as locations. Like, what's an ideal— what would be an ideal landing site? Well, obviously one ideal landing site is where there's a lot of natural resources that we want, where we would eventually want to go and mine it. But there's other places that are good for other reasons. Like for instance, there's something called lava tubes, these old lava tubes, and humans can live in these lava tubes and be protected from the elements. And so, you know, that's another reason to land somewhere because there's great places for humans to hang out. Some we just happen to know a lot about former landing sites, you know, all the Apollo landing sites. I— they're all— a lot of them are represented in my roads.

And protected from harsh weather. Like, the weather's pretty harsh on Mars, and that hiding under these tubes would like, um, provide more clemency.

Yes, on Mars particularly, there's all kinds of things like sandstorms, you know, the radiation. There's all these things that humans don't do well in.. And if you have a place to kind of hide, even actually robotics, even for robotic rovers, one of the rovers died because there was a sandstorm all over Mars and it blocked the sun and it couldn't recharge its batteries. And I guess the lava tube wouldn't help it with that. But there are all these considerations when you go up to these planetary environments that are very different from Earth.

Interesting. And what would we mine on the moon?

Um, well, let's see. Helium-3 is something that interests me. There's a lot of things you can mine. There are rare earths. They're, they're very interested in that. There's some uranium, I think. Um, there's titanium dioxide where you can use that for refractive purposes, and you can, um, take the helium 3 helium from the titanium. So if you see a lot of titanium, it suggests helium. And there's a whole area of research around the best places to go if you want to mine the Moon.

And what other industry would there be? So I guess tourism, right? Uh, lots of tourism. That would be like some mining but mostly tourism.

I don't know about mostly. I think a lot of that is TBD. It just depends on where NASA puts their money. And right now NASA and the military, let's talk about DARPA funding, they are often looking at things like satellites. They're looking at things like spacecraft, all different kinds of spacecraft. Advances using AI in spacecraft. And they are looking less at things like mining right now. Mining is like a long-term vision, quite some time out. And NASA itself is a science agency. So they're very interested in the science part of it, just going up and exploring, you know, collecting the rocks and figuring out what the rocks are made of and was there water there, you know. So everybody has their own, stake in the game, and it just depends on who you start with. When you really get down to making these roads, I could not predict who the top customers would be. I, I couldn't tell you at this point. It's a little bit too far out to predict that.

What would be your top goals for this year to advance the company?

Okay, really, I should start with the fact that I'm semi-retired, and semi-retired is good and bad, and semi-retired means I have an income, so I don't have to worry about my company providing me with an income. But it also means that I'm out here in South Carolina, which is a beautiful place, and I'm by the beach, and I'm by the boats, and I've got golfers surrounding me, and I've got mahjong players, but everybody's retired. And I am not, um, part of a vibrant startup community. I started this company in San Diego. And then eventually they do have a pretty vibrant startup community there. But where I am now, there's just nothing going on. So I really need a younger— first of all, let me start with younger— a younger, experienced serial entrepreneur who could come in and take this kind of blueprint, this really awesome blueprint, and make it real. And he, he or she does not have to be in South Carolina and ideally would not be, like, would be in Austin, Texas, or would be in Silicon Valley or even San Diego, you know, and could, could run that part of the game. Like, I'd even hand over the CEO hat and just be somebody a little bit lesser, you know. I'm going to keep my stock, but, you know, let that person with experience kind of run that game because that's just something I haven't done before. I just, I don't have the connections. I don't, I don't know actually how to do a lot of that. And I, I might be good at it over time with, with somebody teaching me, but I would need to be taught.

There you go. I have people in mind for you. I'm gonna refer you, Megan. Thanks for being on. Where can people find out more about you?

Okay, my— the best place is my website, reliquents.com. Reliquents.com links to all my social media sites so you can watch videos. I wanted to ask you at the end of this, do you mind if I take this podcast video and post it as a blog post?

You can, you 100% can. I was, uh, Megan and Charles for another fun