Olivia Odileke - Founder & Chief Curiosity Officer - Kampus Insights CC

Welcome to another Founder Wisdom Podcast. We have Olivia Odileke with us today. She's a founder at Campus Insight, uh, that's been going on for almost a year now. Uh, previously teacher trainer at K-12, worked as a private tutor as well, and yes, building a bunch of new apps for education and decided to have her on because Education is one of my favorite topics. I think that's how you make the world better. And I think the education system right now is like, probably not in the best place it could be. So Olivia, welcome to podcast. Tell us a bit more about yourself and what you're up to.

Um, well, I'm on fire for curiosity. I think the biggest problems in the world are going to be solved by the curious people, people who talk to people from different industries, different fields, and who aren't afraid to fail. Because what we're doing is not working. But we have a lot of people who are just afraid to make mistakes, and because we're afraid to make mistakes, we keep doing something knowing it's not working. And also being curious— the world is about imagining what's possible. And I think with artificial intelligence, the way it's taken off and how you can literally produce full-range movies, productions right from your house now, where without needing all this capital. I mean, I just feel that the curious and the creatives who come along, they're gonna impact the world because they have the imagination. So we're trying to help students and help teachers and leaders understand what's about to take place and start preparing our kids to be problem solvers, to be collaborative, to go beyond what we've ever seen before.

And why do you think a lot of the education community is opposed to AI, then?

Um, they're opposed to the unknown. They don't know what it is. And you have a lot of AI engineers who don't know what it is either. They're doing things, but they are giving it to a system that is learning. The system is learning as it, as it's growing. So you have this fear, but we have to equip ourselves with the right questions, and we have to educate ourselves on the good and the bad, because all technology has good and bad. But you have to be able to educate people and make them literate so they at least know how to make a decision with it.

So what was your aha moment using AI, knowing that this would change the full world and could be used as a creative force and added value, rather than, oh shit, AI is dangerous and let's not use it, and let me just be resistant against it.

Um, actually, the first time I was exposed to AI, I was at a dinner, and literally, um, ChatGPT had just came out, um, 6 weeks. It had been out for 6 weeks, and someone says, oh, my, my lawyer friend is showing me, um, this new tool. I never met this lady, but I said, can you put in that tool Fearless educators are taking over the world. And she just typed that in the prompt. It came out with this long essay, and I read it, and I was like, this has a lot of logic to it. So that was kind of my first introduction, and I started using it just for business purposes and to have a thought partner. But it wasn't until I attended a conference called the Create Conference, and it was women who are building in AI.. And I actually saw some of the products other women were building, um, because of the technology. And then that just kind of gave me more confidence to be like, girl, you got some stuff in you too that you could solve problems with. And that was the, that was the other push to actually start creating with AI versus just using it.

And I think back then you were, um, still a private tutor and maybe you're, you're still private coach.

Yes. I had a couple people on my team, but we were basically offering educational consulting services and, um, doing a lot of workshops for different school districts across America.

But back then, um, when did you first deploy, uh, ChatGPT to your students, right? Then you've seen them have an aha moment that you had.

Oh no, never deployed ChatGPT to any student. Never deployed ChatGPT to any student. Why? Because a lot at that time, School districts had no policy on it, and there's a lot of research behind AI and negatively affecting children's brains that haven't been completely developed. Now, an adult brain uses AI differently, and it doesn't affect their, their brain development, but there's a lot of research coming out recently showing the negative when they use it for, um, assisted learning. They're— when they use it for creating like if you're creating a movie or you're creating flyers or you're creating something with it, that is different. And I think that's what we need to push for AI in the classroom, is using it to create versus using it to pass a test or using it to just create an assignment. Those are two different, different worlds.

But isn't the system fundamentally flawed? Because I mean, I use AI as an entrepreneur to pass tests all the time. I would use it in a work context as well, so why not use it in an assignment context?

Um, well, like I said, there's some— a lot of research coming out because our— the children's brain is not fully development— developed. It's actually creating less neural connections. Our brain, when we're at least 25, is fully developed and we have all our neural connections because the brain is fully developed. But when it's not, It shows that when they had it, it was going up. When they took it away just for a little part, they actually became like more retarded. It's kind of like they, they, their brain cells actually decreased versus increased. So I think it's important that parents read up on what, um, what, what is the research saying about it. But I see it as a tool for making students more creative, and I think that's the push we should use it for? How can we use these tools to solve real problems versus do an assignment? And I actually— part of the conference we just did, we had a whole piece on ethics and what are humans supposed to do versus what technology can do. And then we had a whole section on how we can take assignments, put it in AI, and say, create an assignment that you can't solve. Create an assignment that someone can't put up in AI and get automatic, um, results from. So I think that is the way education should take it.

I have so many opinions on that topic, which is so fascinating, by the way. It's like if the student returns AI slop or just an AI response, well, I mean, the teacher should be able to know that and be like, hey, you just used AI and that's not complete, right? And maybe you could try to go faster. I still think this is great, especially if the student read the answer. Why? Because it memorizes the actual answer and it has the students start on an 8 on 10 basis instead of their own 3 on 10 basis. And my full thesis is to get them ready to the market, right? And even have start a business as soon as possible. And I don't think it's foreign in the future that we would think that a 7-year-old could outsmart a 70-year-old, right? Because they can learn so fast. They have technologies next to them. Of course, there's, brain development, but the brain is incredibly neuroplastic, and we've already seen some geniuses out there at that age. And I don't think it's necessarily genetics. Most of the genius, their parents are just freaking obsessed, and every single hour of the day they put them like at work, right? So I think there's potential for AIs to contribute to that development and not stimulate laziness, right?

And I think, like I said, it was, it was based on assistance with doing problems and assignments. That was the research. There hasn't been a lot of research on how AI can be used as a guide or a learning coach, because I feel that that's the next wave. Use it as a learning coach where you can learn anything in 20 minutes a day and produce, you know, a portfolio that you can share. And the other part of it is Um, we don't really have a lot of thinkers in our students today. I think this is, this is the, this is the frontier of actually going deeper in thinking because we don't have to spend all this time on recall because we have all these technologies around us that can recall stuff for us. But recalling it is not the same as putting it together to solve real problems and people's pains. And that's what people pay for. I got a pain, I need you to solve it. And, um, we, we gotta, we gotta become more business-minded. Actually, we need to teach people to be more business-minded, more community-minded too. Solving problems in your community is money also, even though it might not seem like it, but it's a pain. So, you know, the thinking part is what I'm excited about, and we can use it to help us think deeper, create questions we never had an opportunity to interact with because most teachers will only ask surface-level questions. They won't go deeper. Therefore, the AI now comes in as a coach to go deeper. Maybe they overheard the conversation between the teacher and the students. Now it can say, hey, we're going to spend 15 minutes drilling you. It's a live artificial person you're talking to versus typing something. You're talking to someone and they're drilling you and making you think deeper and go deeper and making you like your brain hurt. That meant your brain was growing. That's kind of where I see it. That's where I would want it to go. I don't want it to go where we're just using it to pass a test.

Exactly. I think the system is flawed. The system itself is flawed. But as a private tutor, you've seen that you could sort of go out on unpaved roads, right? And go a bit outside of the context, outside the rules, right? And sort of reinvent from scratch. Me, it's the laws of evolution, right? Like, and capitalism is very much aligned with the laws of evolution. Arguably we're, we're preparing kids for this market, for capitalism, and why not have them start a business as soon as possible and be like, hey, you can make some money and go out with your little friends on the weekend and be independent.

And obviously with some, um, you know, the only reason that won't work, Charles, right? No, the only reason that wouldn't work is because our system was designed on a 17th century model by corporate leaders who wanted to create average people. The whole purpose of the educational system was to create average people in corporations, correct? Make, make you average, come to work, repeat the same thing over and over. So as long as we got some powers that be— but again, because of technology and people like yourself, um, doing podcasts, putting this different way of thinking, hopefully people will get from the brainwashing and say, I want a different life for myself. Because we already know what this other life— it's enough case studies out here to know what happens when you don't decide to own your own business, you don't decide to take control. You are always controlled. And then as soon as you lose your job, what happens? The whole world ends. Your mental crisis, your whole worth, your whole value is gone. Because you lost your little 6-figure job. Get over it. You need to have a hustle. Everybody needs a hustle. Everybody needs to have something else. Why? Because when they get ready to take it— my value was not in that paycheck. That was, that was just my retirement. I was just putting a little money to retirement. I was doing something else on the side, was, was working on my dream life. And it's important we think about our dream life and not just, you know, getting by, because a job is a couple things: jump out of bed Just over broke. Um, I had a couple— that's what a job is. So everybody out there talking about, I got a job, I got a good job, it's really good. You serious? And next month AI had took away 10, you know, 100,000 jobs.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, I agree with that. Yeah, a bunch of people can't see it. I also— why is— because it's a social construct, right? And a job is more than income for them. It's like social identity. It's what they're and it's what their, their, their current friends, you know, their current banker friends, their Goldman friends, like, oh, it's all prestigious. Then you lose your job and then you're, you're like, yeah, you don't have your identity anymore. And that's pretty sad. Um, and I, I guess a bunch of people don't see also AI decimating a, a good part of the economy. Um, I mean, I'm, I'm not a doomer, but I can see it clearly as a founder that replaced most of my teams with, uh with AIs and still works with superhumans, but that are founders, right? That are not people that I pay $100 an hour to go 9 to 5. I can definitely see it. Education, will it adapt on time, or will private players like Alpha School take over before the public system does?

Um, you know, I love Alpha School as a, as a case study. Um, We don't have enough alpha thinkers. That's, that's basically—

but they can be built, right? You're not born an alpha thing.

Oh no, no, no, you're not, you're not. But we just talked about the job situation, right? And I talk to people every day where I'm trying to push them over to entrepreneurship, and it's kind of like talking to someone who's had a mental breakdown and trying to rebuild them, trying to rebuild um, their freedom, you know, the ability to be free.

It's impossible.

Uh, yeah, and education is not going to catch up. Education will only catch up once, um, the higher institutions go bankrupt, because they're going to eventually go bankrupt because people are going to realize it's been a scam. They, they don't have to go here anymore and learn how to do a lot of this stuff. They're going to be so many things people are going to be able to teach themselves and get certifications and They paid only $100 a month to learn how to do this versus I'm going to pay $100,000 to go get a degree to make it look pretty on my, um, so education will not catch up until higher education is bankrupt because everything is pushing kids to go to higher education. We're not giving students any other option. We're acting like this is the Holy Grail of learning just to go get a job and Yes, we have some very professional technical fields like, you know, heart surgeons, um, maybe certain practices of law or certain—

that can be taught privately faster.

Yeah, where you don't have to go to school.

School of medicine is a fucking joke. Let me repeat that. It's the best— is the best joke ever. 10 years at a school, $200 grand, $500 grand. Yeah, that's a fucking joke.

And then you got to pay insurance, so much insurance, so that you never get malpractice. It is.

And that's also another joke.

Like, people, when they go bankrupt though, Charles, they got to go bankrupt, then, then we'll find another way. Because people were like, that pipeline, everybody will like finally wake up from the matrix and realize a degree wasn't, wasn't the, the success story. Yeah, what do you make of your life?

Highest rate of depression and suicide, uh, top 10 percentile of, uh, highest depression and suicide among doctors because it's a hard fucking job and everyone's on their back. They spent 10 years of their lives and a fortune to make it happen and now they're stuck into this thing, right, which is a system. So yeah, a bunch of things need to change, right? But if we need more doctors and competent doctors and Doctors with EQ, right, which we don't have right now because they're stuck in like execution and robotic mode. Like this, this needs to change, right? Like maybe a private system and slow down the regulation, right? And just give them a bit more freedom, bit more support, and faster track, more practice, quicker practice with AI, right? Virtual worlds can reproduce a patient's experience, right?

Yeah.

And yeah, it's— this needs to change fast because AI is catching up. The agent tech revolution is about to come on, and jobs are going to be slashed if humans don't move fast enough. And that's a real crisis I think that, uh, is in front of the US, Canada. It's not necessarily defense, right, and all this thing. It's like people losing jobs and, uh, revolting, and the full system, uh, is going through a very hard phase. Yeah, that's artificially by corporations and governments.

Well, that's why any change that takes place takes place in micro levels. A lot of people want to go in and change education overnight. It, it's not going to happen. It's been rigid, it's, it's set in its ways. But our team and our organization's goal is that if we can get people to ask more questions If we can get people to say, what if? If we can get people just to allow wonder to come back into their life, and if we can make that a leadership practice, then it's going to become a student practice. But because the leaders are not practicing it, and so it's simple, it's a very simple, it's sneaky too. I call it very sneaky, Charles, because we're trying to spark curiosity. We're trying to spark some thinking. And once you get somebody open, once their brain opens, then they will go challenge things, then they will ask better questions, and then we'll see a system changing. But if we keep business as usual and we can't start from a micro level, that's why we, we focus more on how do we get teacher practices to change. And we have an application we created for that But it's micro, it's within 2 to 6 weeks focusing on one thing. But my— our goal though is that at the end of these cycles, they ask themselves a question. And that question should be, what else can I try? What else can I try? What is something new I can do? And if we can get this spirit in our students, we can get in our teachers and leadership, we'll see a change in our schools. It's just right now no one's asking that question. No one's saying, what can we try new? We're only asking the question, how can we make scores go up? That's not a question. That's— that, that hasn't been answered in 50 years. We haven't made the scores go up in the last 50 years. So it's the wrong question. The better question is, what if we created students who think for themselves, students who collaborate, students who come to school with a passion for something in their life and they want to see how they can learn more about that passion. See, these are the— this is what makes me wonder. These are the things that makes me curious. And to, to get a group of people who can start thinking like this, this is the micro change. It's so simple, just one little question: what can I try new today? That's it. And if you can get somebody to say that one thing, then things can gradually change.

Otherwise, how do you teach a kid to ask questions? Is it even something you need to teach them?

Because you don't teach them how to ask questions. You spark the curiosity. If somebody says, hey Charles, I just figured out a system in 6 weeks I can earn a million dollars— Charles, you're already thinking, oh, what's that system? What's the product? What's the service? How did you figure out this thing? You is coming up with questions because this person just put something in your head you never had in your head before. And that is what kids are looking for. They're looking for someone to put something in their head they never had, and they will automatically ask the questions. You don't need any scaffolding for that, and they will build their confidence because they're talking. I would say 75% of kids are not even talking in classrooms. You cannot build your confidence if you're not talking to people, if you're not asking questions, if you're not wondering. So a lot of them are maybe getting some good grades, but then when they come out low self-esteem, low self-confidence, because they never talk their whole—

it's so fucked up, you know, like when you think about it, how the education system— like, it is.

That's why— that's not— wake me up, Charles. That's my— that's my bread and butter though, Charles. That's why I do this. I don't do this because I just want to be a wealthy lady one day. I do this because I know that when you get someone to want to learn on their own, when— when everyone can go to their own university Because I started going to my own university when I graduated. That was called the Olivia Oteleke University. People like, what is that? That's when you go and you learn something for you to make you a better person and to find your fulfillment and your potential. And that to me is the purpose of school. You should get them to a point where they no longer want to be fed by you. I don't want to go to a university and you tell me what courses to take and what my curriculum is. I create my curriculum. Because I know what I love and I know my habits and I know my hobbies and I know the things I want to achieve. Just show me how to learn. And that's what we're not doing. We're not really showing kids how to learn. We're still showing them how to study for a test. That's what we're showing them how to do.

So my next obvious question is like, why not join Alpha School if they're doing that incredibly well? Or why not launch your own Alpha School? Isn't that the best way rather than trying to reform a system.

One thing about Alpha School is they got some alpha money. It's a private— it's a private, um, it's a private setup. And when you get enough high-profile people who are sick and tired of the public school setup, and then you can create more Alpha Schools. Because at the end of the day, um, when you don't have to depend on federal or government funding and you have your— you, you are, you know, your own independent sovereignty you can do whatever you want to do. You can, you can push kids to the limit. You can go to, um, um, Abu Dhabi every, every, every weekend if you want, you know, and expose kids to different cultures and different thinking. But one of the things is we, we depend on government, and a lot of these politicians don't know nothing about education, and they're the ones creating the policies. They're the ones sending the money down. They're the ones creating these vouchers. And so therefore, you know, at the end of the day, um, That's the only reason why I have it, is that— but then I'm trying to create entrepreneurs myself. Like, I want to create so many entrepreneurs using different tools, creating different tools so that we can get together and synergize and create alpha schools. Because I really think that's the only way to go. If we keep depending on this public school model, it's not gonna work. I'm sorry, it's not gonna work. It's just too much red tape, too much politics, too many people sleeping with people, too many people passing money to people, you know. And you got to get through all of that foolishness to, to get to some type of solution. And, and I don't have time for that, see me. I don't even want— I don't even want to go through their institutions and get all these principal certifications and all this. Why? Just to say I'm qualified to lead. I was leading when I was 6 years old. I don't need somebody to give me a piece of paper. I could lead all the kids on my street. Anything I said, they listened to me and they followed me because I had confidence. I knew what I was about. And I had a vision. They cannot test these things. But yes, they give people a little piece of paper and say, you're a principal, you're a leader. No, you're not.

Yeah, it's just like someone that wants power, right?

Like, uh, yeah. And a lot of them are very hungry.

You'll never achieve it because you're, you're not meant for anything greater. That's a sad truth. That's what I experienced in the system, right? It's like always being in that— that these people would always cap me, right? And that, that got me crazy. I'm not even sure how I made it to live 10 years in that system was like every year they threatened to, to fire me, right? It's like, yeah, they didn't take such wasted potential for government needs.

You know, you were one of those extroverted thinkers. You thought outside of the box, and because you wouldn't fill in the box, they wanted to kick you out of the box. And I see so many kids who are geniuses because they have so much knowledge. We never really tap in, and that's Another reason we create these Spark tasks— part of the Spark task, they're not based on the curriculum, they're based on the students' backgrounds and what is the concept behind the curriculum, the curriculum. And then a lot of kids to talk about what's going on in their life and, you know, bring it in, make it more relevant. But as long as we're following a script, as long as we gotta, gotta follow that curriculum, we gotta follow them questions, and we gotta follow that script, we will continue to make, um, students like you feel like outcasts because you never got to contribute your unique skills and your unique knowledge, even if it was one class period a week, you know, 20 minutes a week where you felt free to be yourself. People don't offer that. It's just so much suppression. And, you know, the schools is like a prison system anyway. Most of them are built like prisons. They got the bells, they got, you know, your lunch. Everything is on a schedule, you know, and And the brain doesn't work like that.

That's what it is. And it's crazy to think that we're, we're boxing intelligence itself, right? Olivia, uh, thanks for being on the podcast. Uh, where can people find out more about you?

Um, you can find me right on LinkedIn, Olivia Oteleke. Our, our company, um, business is called campusinsights.com with the K. We have several different products we're offering in order to spark more wonder, spark more curiosity, and change teaching practice where people come and they want to learn. They want to learn, they want to grow, they want to find their potential.

There you go. That was Olivia and Charles Cormier for another