Paul Foley - Founder at Bulk Exchange

Welcome to another Founder Wisdom pod. We have Paul Foley with us today. He's the founder and executive chairman at Bulk Exchange, which is an agent procurement for heavy civil construction in San Rafael, Cali, but the guy is Irish. And already got to know him for the pod. So, Paul, glad to have you on. Uh, tell us a bit more about yourself and what you've been up to.

Charles Cormier, it's a pleasure. I love watching your stuff and you always have entertaining guests and some pretty cool conversations. Yeah, well, like you gave the intro there, Paul Foley, I started— I'm the founder of Bulk Exchange. Maybe we'll dive into that a bit more. You also touched on the fact that I'm originally from Ireland. Earlier on, you and I discussed I'm heading back there A week from Wednesday to where it all started. I grew up in very humble beginnings, uh, of which I'm extremely proud. Um, my dad was an excavation heavy civil contractor. Uh, I grew up on a small farm. So when you grow up on a small farm and you're around— your dad is an excavation contractor— you're around heavy equipment, big machines, tractors. Dirt and rocks and cow shit from a very young age. So that, since I've been knee-high, I've been in that environment. And even though at many times in my life I tried to get away from it all, it— I keep going back to it. So as soon as I finished up college back home, which was a kind of a construction management type course, I came over to the United States in '99, and I worked with various grading and underground contractors in the San Francisco Bay Area. And then I went off to Australia for a couple of years, uh, doing the same, mostly, uh, out west. I, I always seem to drift west, uh, wherever I go. I've never actually really thought about that until now. I was, I was out in Perth and Fremantle, and then I came back, uh, to the United States, and then I started my own contracting business, primarily in the heavy civil space. So we're the guys with the big excavators digging out basements trenching the streets and putting in utilities and doing demolition projects. I also do, uh, pier drilling type projects. You see those big drill rigs that drill down into the ground to put in big steel beams? That's, that's us. And concrete work. And then I'm also partners in a small general contracting business and some small real estate development stuff, uh, here in the, the Bay Area. What you didn't hear in that big spiel was anything to do with technology. Uh, so the pains and frustrations that I've had over those 30 years across 3 continents as an estimator contractor, that's what got me on this Bulk Exchange journey. So I founded Bulk Exchange about almost 6 years ago, and we have an online marketplace connecting the demand side, which is estimators and contractors like me, to the supply side in the heavy civil space. And when we say supply side, we're referring to aggregate producers, asphalt, ready-mix dump sites, recycle facilities, steel and lumber yards, those who supply landscape bulk material and concrete precast products. So it's the first of its kind. It's— some people jokingly call us, or which is not a bad description, but to be paired with, but the Amazon for dirt, rocks, and concrete. It's a simple way to put it, even though that's not us, but where we have an online marketplace, and we've over 35,000 facilities across the US and Canada.

I love that. I love your background as well. Let's double-click on the thing you said that you constantly found yourself drawn to that past. I grew up in middle class, right? My dad was an entrepreneur. I guess that's what keeps on bringing me back to entrepreneurship as a whole. But my dad was more conservative, right, in his business, less of a risk-taker. And I'm the opposite of that. I take a lot of risks. I haven't found myself being drawn back to my stuff. I left Quebec in Canada partly because it was like small bread type of mindset, right? Like always cut the tallest blade grass. And I don't want my ambitions capped, you know. And I've never returned really to that older loser version of me. So can you double-click on that, like finding yourself drawn back to your origins?

Um, well, even though, you know, when I talk about bulk exchange and all the exciting places where this is headed, even in the last 6 months how things have changed when it comes to, you know, this wave of agentic and where AI is taking the world in general, not only our industry, but to me it always just keeps boiling back to the people. And what I love about this industry that I been born into, uh, back in the west of Ireland, whether you're in anywhere in Europe, the United States, Australia, it's just the best people to be around. Um, so that's why I keep getting drawn back to it. Um, I, you know, I, I, I like to build things. Uh, there's something which is another contradictory statement coming out of me right now because the world I'm from since, you know, since year one has been, uh, a tangible world. You know, you come along with an excavator, a digger, you dig a trench, you fill it with concrete, you frame up a wall, you put in a window and a roof, and you've got something solid to look at. That's been my world for forever. And this last 5 or 6 years, you know, in the world of technology and founding a startup, that's been something that has taken a you know, a while to wrap my head around because the world of technology is not tangible like that. You know, you can't— it's not like the concrete or the wood framing. But that's been what has made it very exciting to me as an entrepreneur, getting out of my comfort, my familiar zone, into this crazy world of tech and startups, which, for better or worse, that's now part of my life. And I love it. And I love the people that that I brought around me that are part of our team here at Bulk Exchange and part of the industry in general, because it's an old school industry. This, where I've worked all this time, it hasn't changed much since Barney and Fred were in the, in the quarries in Flintstones. But there's a fire lit under the ass of the industry right now with AI and Agentik that wasn't there before. So a superpower of ours is that we're, we're neutral, we're agnostic in the middle, connecting demand to supplies. So, uh, I, I mean it when I say it, we have to build this inside, you know, from within the industry for the industry. So it's an exciting time and I, I love the challenge.

And okay, you had a long career, you're 50 today. You weren't always an entrepreneur, right? You started as a project manager. So at what age did you become a founder? Why? And at what age were you officially successful financially and in life?

Yeah, the word success or successful, I always take it with a grain of salt because, you know, when you look at the long road versus near term, you know, but I'm not— I won't get too far into that. I, I, I, I, I like to eat humble pie on a regular basis. But, um, I would say, yeah, I, I, you know, I started off back home, came over here and worked as a project manager, like you said, an estimator with various companies. And just, you know, when you're— I, I won't lie, like, when I was working with these companies and I worked my way up the ladder within them, I, I started to get that itch, that feeling that you know, number one, I could do things differently. And I, you know, I saw different opportunities that were sitting out there. And sometimes when you're working for, you know, a particular type of person and they're not hearing what you're saying, you're like, all right, well, I'm gonna go do it myself then. And, you know, there's the— that's the actual doing part. But then, you know, then there's the financial aspect. I was like, well, you know, I could be here just on a regular, you paycheck, which is fine. And some people are totally good with that. But I just felt like I wanted to get out there by myself contracting. And, you know, as soon as I came back from Australia, I worked here for one or two companies for a couple of years. And then the great thing about the United States— and people might kick it around for a lot of different reasons right now in this political environment— but it is a great country to start up as a business, as an entrepreneur. Preneur. It, it still is. Um, so to get up and just literally have me and one excavator, that's how I got started. And I just snowballed from there. And I, I, I, I was never afraid to get stuck into anything, like, to make it happen, even though I didn't have all the tools at my disposal. I always made sure I had a really good network of people to not only find out what jobs are worth chasing after. But then when it comes to the execution of the jobs, to make sure that— all right, well, I kind of— because I'm only starting out, I can't afford the big bright shiny new Caterpillars, but what can I do with my network guys who are willing to give me a little bit of a leg up to get started? And then you get on to the next job and you buy a few more pieces of equipment and hire a few more guys, and you're able to keep their the work more consistent. So that means now you've got a crew and, you know, and you start to get a good reputation for yourself because you, you, you do what you say. So that is how it all kind of snowballed for me and became, you know, I, I feel I became pretty successful because I didn't just stay in the, um, in the realm of heavy civil construction. I, I always tried to keep my eyes open on other opportunities. You know, I'm a part owner in a couple of restaurants and a boutique hotel and, you know, various other, you know, ventures, uh, just to keep it interesting but also, uh, diversify the portfolio of, uh, you know, of other opportunities. And, and just, you know, it opens your eyes just to see other industries. Like, I wouldn't have been familiar with the restaurant industry or bars or hotels, but because, you know, I become an investment partner in those, I get into those worlds as well. Um, you know, they— like anything in life, I'm very open about along the way, some of the best lessons I learned was when projects or businesses didn't go the way I, I would have wanted them to do. And that's, that's something that is a painful reality of being an entrepreneur, uh, and especially with certain types of ventures like where I am right now with Bulk Exchange. You know, you mentioned boxing earlier, I think in our earlier conversation, Charles. I've got a buddy who's in that. He's a boxer, MMA, and he said, you know, that line, there's no such thing as play boxing. You're either all in or you're not. And I feel it's the same when it— when you're a tech founder, there's no play boxing, you're all in, you got to be prepared to bet the house and just brick and go all in. And that's, that's what I'm prepared to do. And especially when I look people in the eye as an investor and say, hey, you know, invest in this venture, um, I want them to know that I'm doing everything I can and surrounding myself with the right people, uh, to get the best outcome, you know.

Most of guys in your space don't get into tech. Why did you?

Um, there's a line, is it from Plato? The need will be the creator. Um, you know, it's the need was just there. And so many, um, shall I say, people call me a tech bro now, but so many tech bros try to come into the, our industry and tell us, you know, number one, well, we're so far behind, we're 20 years behind the rest of the world when it comes to technology, and we're Why are we doing things so, you know, archaically? We, we, we don't want people from outside telling us and, and creating a solution without them understanding the, the, all the complexities within this industry. It's a trillion-dollar industry. It has built the biggest dams and roads and infrastructure projects across the world, um, with some of the best engineering minds. Do we have massive, massive issues that can be resolved and will be resolved with tech? Absolutely. But I felt and witnessed, uh, many solutions either with other companies I worked with or when I became my own contracting business, other solutions that just weren't built for us. So then I truly felt, how come I'm sitting in the so-called tech capital of the world here in the Bay Area, California, and I'm still sourcing and sharing my information the same way as my dad did 50 years ago on the west of Ireland. So, uh, the great thing about living here in the Bay Area is, uh, going back to the network. Not only did I keep a strong network of people in the construction industry close to me, but I was always working with some of the biggest names, quite frankly, in the history of technology right here in Silicon Valley. I'd worked on various houses for those guys, and I always made sure that, you know, I was respectful and introduced myself and kept in their circles. So when it come— when it came to me getting, you know, the first few wheels turning on this startup world that was very unfamiliar to me, uh, the network that I had created allowed me to get access to some really, uh, accomplished people to give some you know, little tidbits of advice to get the first few, um, steps moving. And now it's— it was still, and, you know, a very daunting world to get into because, um, it was so unfamiliar to me. But, you know, to this day, I've just been blessed, uh, surrounded myself with some great people. The people who are here at the helm of Bulk Exchange right now, uh, all the people that work on my team, I couldn't be happier to have you know, such authentic, hardworking, capable people. So I think ultimately, that's— it keeps boiling down to relationships, network, and the right sort of people. The technology can be replicated. Look at the world we're in right now, what, you know, how quickly technology is advancing. But I truly believe that it, you know, the power of relationships and trust is— and good people is actually going to become even more important as the this all evolves.

I think you attract these people. I think you're personally, you're an easygoing guy. You seem kind on the front end. I don't know you fully, but I can already tell that this could be the type of people you attract. You've also worked on various continents. I've seen Canada, San Francisco, Ireland, Australia. What's, what's the difference between these markets and what is the similitudes?

You know, um, one thing that's very similar no matter where you are across the world, you know, whether it's a big freaking 50-story tower or a little shack of a cottage or a cabin, construction is still construction. You got to start at the bottom, a foundation, and work your way up. Um, the, the plans can be a lot more detailed and the products can be a lot more specified and you know, better strengths and whatnot. But ultimately, there's— it's actually quite similar in the 3 continents I was on, uh, you know, they're Western continents, uh, or Western locations. Um, the same problems persist, I will tell you that. Uh, I was actually joking with a friend recently where, um, you know, you could be in a third world country or even in a developing country And I'll bet you they are sourcing and sharing information the same way as we are here in the so-called first world. And that's the, that's the opportunity that we're working on here at Bulk Exchange. You know, the opportunity is the challenge that, uh, despite, you know, it being such truly critical, uh, infrastructure, uh, you know, which serves society, it, it has a long way to go to, uh, you know, to get to enhance and embrace these, these new technologies. But that is happening much more rapidly now, Charles. Like, it, my, it gives me great hope. Like I said a while ago, that, uh, there's a fire lit under the ass of the industry that wasn't there before, because now the industry knows we gotta move, we gotta go, because we gotta control things or it's going to get controlled on us in this new age of AI.

Tell me about the difference between running a construction business or an excavation business and a tech company. One is more backbreaking than the other. One is more tangible. You're building like something with your hands. You can see it. The tech world's a bit more abstract, right? Like you can't feel it or see it. And it's not like, oh, I built this, right? And you're proud of it, sort of. So what are the differences between running both of these?

Yeah, well, I think you just, you summed it up pretty well there just in a few sentences. It is that, like, you know, I've got friends who are in the, you know, the construction sector obviously, and my family, and, and I, I even have it— I have, uh, struggles sometimes explaining to them what the hell I'm doing or what I've been working on for the last 6 months because it's up there in the cloud somewhere, you know. Um, but you know what is fascinating though is, and once again going back to the unique time in history that we're at right now, what you can create and the output in technology. You know, what used to take hundreds of coders or dev folks now can be done in minutes or days or certainly weeks because of the advancements in technology. Where, you know, the world of construction, and especially heavy construction that I'm so familiar with, you are constrained by, you know, the supply chain and the rock's got to get blown up in the quarry and they got to get trucked to the job site and rolled in or turned into concrete or asphalt. So there's constraints in the physical world on how quickly something can happen. You can certainly get much more efficient, and technology is making it much more efficient now than ever before and will continue to do so. But they're, you know, they're the main differences in my mind is the tangible aspect, the physical component of it. Big rocks, big trucks, machines, labor-intensive often, even though they're getting a lot more automated and robotics. But, uh, whereas in the world of technology, you're not constrained by the physical, you know, now more than ever.

And you've built probably mansions for tech bros. Um, these, like, what's been your, uh, take on these guys? Like, these guys are so smart but up there and they can't build anything with their hands.

Yeah, you know, it's— when I was, you know, because right now I'm doing very little contracting because I'm so devoted to bulk exchange. But when I was, uh, high-end construction was where I made the most money, um, in heavy civil construction because you could get in with, you know, and I want to be respectful because, uh, many of these people are still friends of mine, but you know, you get in with some tech bro and he's got— he or she has a ton of money and they just want to go And I'm always like, the crazier the better. If you want to dig a 70-foot hole underneath your house, we'll do it. And there was a project down in the South Bay that we did, and it was, it was almost, you know, it was fully planned and permitted and fully designed and everything, but it was a 70-foot deep basement underneath a residential house, you know. So, um, and, you know, I've worked on other projects where they're just like, all right, can we just, you know, they have all this money and they want to bring in a famous art sculpturist to the property, and they're like, all right, can you just move that hill over there or put a big road through there? I'm like, sure we can, but that's gonna, that's gonna cost a lot of money. And I'm like, the crazier the better, you know. So, um, but you know, it's— I know there's a lot of struggles out there in society with, you know, the, the gap between the, the crazy big money that's up there and, and, and, you know, and I truly think that's, that's not a good thing over time, the, the more of the gap. But, but, you know, living here truthfully in the Bay Area, Northern California, um, I, I don't believe in trickle-down anything, but I, I've benefited from working for some of the successful founders in the Bay Area who cash out or get, you know, get their, uh, you know, rightfully so. In, in a lot of cases, they, you know, they get their, their hands on the benefits of their, uh, of their risk-taking and, and successes, and then they want to go off and build some $50 million home, and then that puts a bunch of guys like me to work. You know, you could have 10, you could have 200 freaking guys on a single job site for years at a time. So that's all local employment.

Um, I don't think it's a bad thing then. I don't think wealth is a bad thing. I think the divide also motivates a bunch of people to go up. I think if you're in a scarcity mindset, which probably needs therapy, and eventually I do think AI therapy is going to be able to pretty much fix everyone. I think if you're in a scarcity mindset, you're definitely going to be jealous and be like, oh shit, these guys, these fuckers, you know, like, but if you view it in a positive picture. Yeah. And also economically, like you said, statistically, I do think it brings value to society even if these guys don't pay taxes because they would pay people under them. Yeah, I think it's mostly beneficial. I think, um, yeah, of course the rich gonna get richer. They have systems, they, uh, they'll keep going up and up and up. But, um, yeah, anyway, I guess that one's for another— yeah, I guess you learned a lot from these guys as well. I'm asking these questions because I, I work with, uh, a guy in the Bay Area, maybe you know Bruno Freitas, right? Like Outdoor Builders. Uh, he's one of the nephew like you that has a physical construction business and now is putting it online. And he said that he learned tons from these Mavericks.

Oh yeah, totally. Well, it's, it's infectious being around people who are, you know, and I can tell you have that, Charles. They're just like, they've got that bold pioneer Maverick mentality, you know. 10, uh, people, um, you know, might say no, but they're the ones that will say, yeah, heck yeah, I'll, uh, I'll make it happen, you know.

Let's take that question here. What are your top 3 lessons learned as a serial founder?

Top 3? Yeah, um, thank you, Marion. Um, I would say number 1, uh, I touched on it earlier, surrounding yourself with, uh you know, some really solid, trustworthy people, uh, has been massive for me, um, all the way along this journey. Um, I've been, like I said earlier too, you know, just blessed to have some really good people, uh, and, and, you know, the trust goes both ways. I have to prove myself as a genuine person to these people and, and vice versa. But that's huge. And I tell it to my two boys, uh, who are 18 and 20 right now, is, is just the importance of of trust and relationships and your network. So that, if you want to call that one. And then number two, lessons learned, which, you know, I think I'm already stubborn being a West of Ireland farmer. You just gotta have really, really thick skin to be a founder. There's wantrepreneurs and there's entrepreneurs. There's a lot of people like to you know, pretend and, you know, just want to get up there and ring a bell. But you gotta, you gotta take some major, major lumps, uh, along the way and be prepared for the, um, you know, it got told to me before, which really ingrained you, you know, the highs are really high but the lows are really low, uh, in this, you know, journey. So are, you know, are you prepared to, to, to stick that out? So that's been a big lesson for me is to try and keep, you know, keep a steady, you know, whether it's super high or super low, just try and get yourself on a better balanced path. And once again, the type of people that you surround yourself with will help you with advice for that too.

3 is lots of coffee and an espresso subscription.

What's that?

3 is lots of coffee and an espresso subscription.

Absolutely. Even though if you talk to my partner or some people, my life partner Brianna, or other people in my circle did say that I drink probably too much coffee already because I'm kind of naturally wired. But it is true. Sometimes you got to dig really, really deep. You know, once again, as a tech, as a founder, you got to dig really deep, get yourself out of the hole, brush yourself off, and then go again, you know, because It's not for everybody, but I wouldn't give it up for the world.

Yeah, let's take a last one here from Marianne. Talk about the loneliness factor of being a founder.

Yeah, well, it's one of my—

because you're quite community-oriented like me, I've been definitely facing that, but even online I've built a pretty strong community. I've onboarded a co-founder this year, and I have, uh, closers that have been clients of mine and became friends, and I see them physically like once a year. Um, and I have a fun physical life with my wife here and family. That's lacking for sure, like the physical aspect. But do you have that founder loneliness?

Um, well, it's There's a great song by Freddie Mercury, The Great Pretender, where he sings, I'm the great pretender. And, you know, it talks about loneliness inside. It's when you're a founder, you gotta always be solid on the outside and show positivity and strength. So I think the loneliness can come from having to have that front, but inside, you know, still be dealing with all the, the different, uh, challenges and struggles that inevitably come with such a journey. Um, but I'll keep going back to, you know, the surrounding myself with the right sort of people, even when the moments are very, very dark, uh, to get you back on track. Um, I think that's what helps counteract any of that loneliness that might come. But I'm fortunate, even though I'm a tech founder and we're in this crazy age of AI and agents, I don't dive too deep, even though I spend most of my day on Zooms and working at my computer. But I'm living here in Northern California, so I have a lot of outdoor activities to get out there. I have a beautiful oak tree in my backyard and wonderful deck. I just— my happy place on a Saturday or Sunday morning is just sitting drinking coffee with my, my lady and my two sons, perhaps underneath there. So that helps snap you out of this and helps in a big, big way, you know.

Yeah, I love it. Hey, last but not least, your podcast. Tell me a bit more about it. What's been the strategy behind that one? Has it filled your expectations?

Yeah, you know, this journey we've been on at Bulk Exchange, you know, as like any startup, you're always, you know, dreaming up ways or, you know, coming up with ways to get more awareness and visibility and credibility out there. So Rachel Mahoney— Rachel's my partner here at Bulk Exchange, she's our head of strategy and partnerships— she and I had a podcast show there. We interviewed some industry influencers from the construction industry, from both the world of software as well as, uh, as, uh, the actual construction and heavy civil. Um, we at Bulk Exchange, we have a new head. Barry Hudson recently took over as the president. I, I'm now the executive chairman. Uh, so Barry is firing up some podcasts and other types of means to interview folks from the, from the industry as well. So looking forward to that, and I'll certainly keep you in the loop, Charles, because it's got— it's— there's some awesome guests lined up already.

Yeah, man, thanks for showing up on the pod. Where can people find out more about you, Paul?

Uh, well, number one, you know, bulkexchange.com. Uh, just keep an eye on our site. Uh, we've some massive evolution and transformation going on right now as we become a fully agentic procurement platform for construction bulk materials. So you're going to see some super exciting agentic solutions in the weeks and months ahead on that. And then, you know, following me on LinkedIn, I'd really appreciate anybody who clicks or follows on. You'll see me do some of my posts. I might be out in a quarry one day, I might be, you know, visiting a job site. I could be, you know, talking about some of the new solutions that are coming to our platform. So I would say following Bulk Exchange or me on LinkedIn, or else just go on our website and play around. It's free to sign up. So we take feedback from folks very seriously and encourage it.

As Paul and Charles for now