she helps indian girls live harassment-free

Welcome to another Founder Wisdom Podcast. We have Elsa Marie da Silva with us today. She's a founder at Red Dot Foundation Safe City. She's an international visiting fellow at the Center for Protecting Women Online in Washington, D.C., I would guess. Elsa, welcome to the podcast. Tell us a bit more about yourself and what you've been building.

Yeah, thanks, Charles, for having me, and I'm really excited to speak to your community about my work. So for the last 12 years, I've been running a couple of nonprofits, one in India and one based out of Washington, D.C., which supports our global work. And our work is to end violence against women and girls, and we do that through this tech platform, a civic tech platform, where we collect anonymous stories of sexual and gender-based violence. These are stories across the spectrum, uh, in public spaces, private spaces, digital spaces, physical spaces. And, uh, they map out the continuum of violence from non-verbal types, that is staring, ogling, commenting, um, sexual invites, which are verbal forms, and then the physical forms, that is touching, groping, stalking, and even, uh, serious assault, rape, murder. Kidnapping, human trafficking, etc. All these stories are then geotagged on a map, visualized as hotspots so that we can look at it as location-based data, understand the patterns and trends of what makes that location the comfort zone of the perpetrator. And then we publish data insights by location, time of day, day of week, and the type of crime to our communities, which could include individuals or local nonprofits. It could include police, city officials, transport, etc. And the idea is, how do you use these historical experiences to make sense of what is going on and do something to prevent the violence? And why is this important? Because globally, 1 in 3 women on an average experience some form of it. Daily, and yet 80% choose not to talk about it, which means there is a data gap. There's also a trust gap because most women and girls who experience it, or even men, do not trust the system to give them justice, and so they hesitate. And what we are trying to build is, uh, bridge these 2 gaps, make what is currently invisible visible, and in the end make the space safer for all.

How did you get started into this? Because I look at your LinkedIn, you started in Jet Airways and Kingfisher Airline. When did you decide to sort of stop everything and go into this?

Yeah, that's a good question. So I spent the first 20 years of my work experience in the aviation industry. I started as a flight attendant, and every 4 or 5 years I was identified for a fast So then the next role was a safety instructor teaching pilots and cabin crew safety procedures. Then I was identified for another fast track which took me into strategy, so revenue management, where I optimized the ticket sales. And then my last portfolio was planning the route network for Kingfisher Airlines, where I had a portfolio of 500 daily flights to optimize. I enjoyed it completely, and I think it was really fascinating because when I started off, I did not know that there was so much behind the scenes that happened. But I loved it. In the year 2012, I reached my glass ceiling. I felt like I needed to do more purposeful work, and I knew it had to be around children or women's rights. But I didn't know how to begin, where to start, and what I wanted to focus on. And during 2012, many things happened. The airline went through a financial downturn, eventually shut. But along the way, I was part of a program by the Swedish Institute, which is the cultural arm of the government of Sweden, where I attended a session focused on CSR and sustainability in business. And that really got me thinking about the development sector. And then we had this awful incident where a young woman was gang raped on a bus and left to die on the streets in Delhi. And that incident was really the catalyst that pushed me to the development sector. And I focused on this issue of sexual and gender-based violence.

And were these events, these gang rape events, common in India/Delhi back then?

It wasn't common, I would say, or rather we wouldn't hear about it like you would hear once in a while. But the brutality of it was so horrific that it did make new— the news, and it made international news. And this particular incident, I remember, was an inflection point in the country which then led to a lot of legislative change. And even now you do have you know, stories of horrific incidents. And it makes you wonder, like, when is enough enough? You know, like, what do we have to go through to make sure that people create an environment that everybody is safe? Nobody needs to go through such an experience for the laws to change or for protocols to change. So that's really why I'm focused on this so that we keep it top of mind all the time. Because when you have data in the public domain that is accessible to all, you actually give people the tools for their own advocacy. We don't really have to be everywhere as a nonprofit, but we provide them with the platform not only to break the silence but also to use this data within their communities to spark a discussion, a debate, and maybe make representation to their elected officials to say we need change.

Safe City, it's not just in India, it's in a bunch of cities around the world, right? So why did you think that this was the, the best solution to drastically reduce gender-based violence?

So when I launched it, I was responding directly to a problem. You know, 10 days after the gang rape of Jyoti Singh, the platform was live. And it was live only because we used open source tools, right? Uh, it took me 2 years to figure out that I was on to something. And why was I on to something? Because there were so many people reaching out saying, can we use the platform? Uh, you know, I had organizations from Kenya, from Nepal, and from other parts of the world saying, uh, you know, we have similar situations, could we use your platform? And we weren't even registered as a nonprofit at that point in time. So the demand was there, and then it was, um, how do you make these stories really, uh, bring about change? Uh, I did a little pilot in Mumbai, which was where I was based at that time, And we were able to mobilize and organize some citizens across 10 streets in one neighborhood. And the police then got involved. The elected representative called us and said, I have budgets for women's safety. The municipal commissioner got involved. So even the residents realized that there was power in numbers, there's power in data, and in collective action. And similarly in Delhi, we had students do the same thing. They were able to change, you know, and get certain recommendations passed which would help them stay within their college boundaries a little longer, a little later than they normally would have so that they had safe transportation to the metro or, you know, they didn't really have to worry about getting home Early, you know, otherwise when we are talking about equity, equality, is it really a playing level playing field between your male counterparts and you if you don't have the same lived experience and you're worried all the time about your safety?

Yeah, it's tough as men to think about that because, yeah, we don't feel in danger. We're statistically stronger as well and we're less vulnerable. I have a question though. Um, has, uh, sexual violence events gone up in most parts of the world? Um, has this problem gone worse? Because I guess it's, uh, it's also like serial people, right? Like people that do it once and can understand that they can get away with it will re-perpetrate, right? So, um, do you have stats on that? Like, is the problem growing or is it reducing right now because of solution like yours?

I would say that on Safe City, we are seeing an increase in reporting, and that's not necessarily because the crime is going up. It's because people are becoming more aware, they are becoming more confident to report, and that could be an indication. But I do believe, because now we have long longitudinal data over the last 12 years, the crime tends to change, you know. So with more digital forms of violence You now see maybe the internet being a space where people are harmed, or they could be, you know, getting missed calls, which could be from a perpetrator who's trying to groom young girls, you know, lure them into meeting them physically online— in a physical space, rather. So I would say these stories are really important because they help you understand how crime is also evolving as technology evolves. Um, as for your question, I think girls and women are becoming more aware of their rights and they are voicing their, um, experiences more, which is why you hear more stories even on social media, especially after the MeToo campaign, right? And even the MeToo campaign got a lot of perpetrators who were in powerful positions Uh, you know, either they went to jail or they were sacked or they were removed from their positions of power. That holds a lot of, um, I would say, gravitas, because then the girls and women watching say, people, there's consequences to your actions, right? Like today, one of the High Court judgments in India says that trivializing sexual violence or, um, you know, putting it back onto the survivor is not good enough. This will not be tolerated. And I think these kind of judgments also reinforce that there are laws, that there are consequences, and, um, you know, perpetrators should not go away scot-free, that they— there should be some punishment. And if we consistently do that, we will have more stories coming up or more formal reports. So you will see an increase in the number in statistics. But sadly, again, that takes a lot of effort on the ground to build the confidence to do that.

Is there elements in a culture that makes men more likely to want to take advantage of women? For example, I've been to Morocco with my wife and my assistant, and women are very much trivialized there, and they just— and we knew it, like, right before coming, right? You need to wear a hijab or whatever in the bus. They didn't, and men just used to stare at them like they were pieces of meat, you know, and were just, like, harassing them, right? So— And yes, if you think of in the US or Canada, it's way more liberal, right? And women have more power, right, to speak. And I think that should diminish some of these unfortunate events. What do you think?

So I would say the cultural context of a place does matter. So in India too, you know, India is very varied. And if you are in North India, your personal space may not be appreciated. Also, an invitation that you are available or that you are vulnerable or that you are, um, that you are asking for it is very high. So for example, in certain parts of the country, and I'm talking about India, just wearing a pair of jeans might might send a message that you are available, or having a mobile phone may be interpreted like you are a loose woman and therefore you need to be punished. So it's really the cultural interpretation. However, I would say it's not an India issue alone. You can take any country in the world and you will find that women and girls are the receiving end of greater discrimination, harassment, bullying, and violence. They just take different forms and shapes, and it could be at home, it could be at the workplace, it could be in a public space, right? In India, for example, I think it's much more heightened because we don't really have curriculum that is consistent, uh, right from an early age that talk about risk respect, boundaries, uh, consent, gender, sexuality, etc. And pop culture also promotes a lot of this. So for example, Bollywood films are, you know, they, um, show the main character who often is a male, um, harassing a woman because he's interested in her. He won't take no for an answer. And at the end of the movie, He does get her. So what message are you trying to say? That no does not mean no, it means yes if you're just persistent, right?

Or you—

it's okay to stalk somebody. And in fact, we had done a campaign called Bollywood Bioscopes, which, you know, we took these bioscopes, the old frames where you look through, um, you know, a little glass and see the movie, and we've taken clips from popular films where the actor, main actor, had stalked a woman or had, you know, pursued this woman to an extent that in real life it would be very intimidating. But a lot of women as well, women, men felt that that was a sign of love. That was okay. It was actually somebody is interested in you. So You know, pop culture can play a big role in promoting some of these harmful norms and stereotypes, and therefore it's very important to challenge it. Challenge, you know, when it comes up in day-to-day life. And because it's highly normalized, people think it's part of our daily routine, and they don't feel comfortable calling it out or even voicing it, which again perpetrates that environment of violence, where violence is acceptable?

Yeah, I was laughing. It's not so funny, but it's like men are cavemen, right? Like, we're not super smart compared to women a lot of time. It's just like A is equal to B. Um, you have the Bollywood problem. I feel Hollywood has a problem, uh, um, not necessarily in sexual harassment, but I feel Hollywood's, uh, has simplified complex topics in the wrong way to the world nowadays and portrays easiness and stuff that is not always true, but feels good, right? And I think that has done gigantic damage to the world. Coming back to what you're building, right, and Safe City. So what's the next step for Safe City? It's been online for quite some time now. Are you gonna— modernize UX? How can you increase the safety of women through the app? What are your objectives this year?

So our objectives this year is we are integrating a lot of AI in our backend, trying to help with the analytics, make it simpler, make it more useful for the people who are using that data in decision-making, like the police, the city officials. We want more government partnerships. Because at the end of the day, that space should not just be safe for women and girls, it should be safe for all. And if you don't know what is going on, then how are you even preventing it from happening? Now I'll give you a few examples. So for our data set for India shows that the peak where women are reporting, and I say women because 90% of our reportees or 84% are actually women, 12% are men, and then a few percentiles percentages are gender non-binary. But the peak where they are experiencing this harassment is 12 noon to 2 PM and 5 to 7 PM. And it's not a question only of lighting, it's in broad daylight that this is happening. So what are you doing? Because the favorite, uh, solution is fix the lighting, which is important for the perception of safety. But my question is, what are you doing when it's in broad daylight? That means you're not even thinking about it, right? The second point is all our cities have CCTVs, you know, surveilling us. How are you using that infrastructure? Do you only use it to prove a crime has happened, or can you use it for prevention now that you have such insights like location, time of day, day of week, and the category? Of crime. So my aim this year and next year is to get more government partnerships with police, with city officials, with transport, so that they can be more effective with the deployment of their own resources, but also in how they think about making the space safer.

And are you speaking on stages, on podcasts? Like, do you feel that can also be like a good way to communicate the Like, I'm just trying to see ways to diminish this at scale because I think it's very much a cultural thing, right? And if people keep hearing a different message that it's not okay, I think they will eventually change. Also, like, what about legal, right? Like, legal repercussions, bringing these people to jail if they're serial perpetrators, right? Like, what are What is the global portrait of the solutions available so that women can feel more safe out there?

So first of all, like, take India for example. We have all the laws for all the types of violence that can occur to a woman, right? But the awareness of the law, the implementation of the law is poor. Less than 5% of cases actually make it to the judicial system. And less than 1% of cases are adjudicated, which means literally nobody is being prosecuted for this crime, which sends the message indirectly to the perpetrator that you will get away with it. Now take globally— globally, a lot of countries have the laws, but many countries do not have specific laws, maybe for the workplace, maybe for public spaces, etc. Right? However, at the UN level, there are conventions like the CEDAW, which is the Convention to Eliminate Any Discrimination Against Violence Against Women and Girls, and 180 countries out of 193 have signed it. That means if you have signed that, then that law is applicable in your country. So in truth, you have the legal remedies But it's not accessible to the people on the ground. So therefore, that's also another reason why Safe City is important, because a lot of our community have said we don't really want to go to the justice system for whatever reason to make our official complaint, but we do want the environment to change. We want it to be better. We want it to be safer. So how do you do that if people are not willing to report or go through the legal pathways, then a platform like us can be a third space where you have an anonymous report, but it's not only looking at one, but looking at the patterns and trends and then trying to, as a community or with other institutions, trying to solve it. Or in, you know, and the solutions range from art on walls at key locations, theater, street theater, that can send the message. Podcasts like yours, for example, because I'm talking to an audience that may not necessarily hear these things. They are a very business, uh, audience. And but a business audience also has a responsibility for safety of their employees at the workplace, on the way from home to the workplace. So they should be thinking about that because otherwise they will, you know, uh, not be able to create the wellbeing environment that is very important in the 21st century today. So I think there are multiple solutions and of course policing and formal laws and legislations are also part of it.

And tell me about like the structure of the company. Are you, do you have employees? You have co-founders on that one? What's funding nowadays? Like how can you scale this?

Yes, so we are a couple of co-founders and we have about 30 employees between the 2 organizations because we have one nonprofit registered in India and a nonprofit registered in the US, a 501. So most of our income is donations and grants and CSR funding because India has a law which mandates that any profitable company has to set aside 2% of their average 3-year profits for CSR. And there is a schedule of what constitutes CSR, and women's, um, women's empowerment, under which safety falls, is one of those, uh, line items. Uh, we do have a small percentage of our income coming in through consultancies and work services that we provide corporates Because again, India has a law on safe workplaces. So they mandate that you have to train your employees on the law, on their redressal mechanisms. There has to be an investigation committee for these, you know, cases because it's a civil act. And this one person on the committee has to be a neutral member. Who is from a nonprofit or have a legal background. So that's how we earn our income as well. And as we grow and scale, we are also looking at independent data sources— not data sources, but income sources. So we have a campaign, for example. For the first time, we have a merch or a swag shop which supports our campaign Daughters of Tomorrow. It has very positive messages merchandising on t-shirts, on sweatshirts, etc. Because we also work a lot with young people, we also have a policy, and we are trying to generate income through our dashboards. So the analytics of the data that we collect— so our data is not for sale, but the analytics, for example, can be a revenue source, especially if we put in the effort to create the dashboards for our partners, and that has been also another income stream. So we are trying to be innovative in this highly constrained funding environment.

Nice. Well, thanks for coming on, Elsa. Where can people find out more about you?

Yeah, so, you know, you can check out redden.foundation.org, and I'm on LinkedIn. You can just type Elsa Marie da Silva. I have my own website as well, elsamariedasilva.com. So happy to be in touch and collaborate.

There you go.