She managed podcasts at NPR, Wondery, Netflix and Apple

Welcome to another Founder Wisdom pod. We have Nijiri Eden with us today. She's a podcast executive in the Atlanta, Georgia region, uh, next Wondery and next Netflix, next Apple, NPR. She's done the full, uh, big podcast, uh, big podcasting companies. So I'm really glad to have her on. Nijiri, welcome to podcast. Tell us a bit more about yourself, what you've been up to.

Yeah, thank you for so much for having me. Um, so yeah, I'm based here in Atlanta. Um, I started my company, uh, Type C Studios, with two of my former colleagues at Wondery. Um, at the layoffs there, we were like, let's just, you know, start a podcast company in 2025, which is not usually the— I think, uh, the case a lot of people are doing. But we just really love this medium and really love working together, and so we're like, let's let's run it back, let's start our own company. So we've been building Type C Studios ever since then, and we've been hard at work, you know, working on these shows, working with clients, and it's been really exciting.

How did you unlock all of these great jobs at these big companies? Like, seems you're really like an authority when it comes to podcasts. Tell us a bit more about that.

Well, it's funny, it's sort of like a, I don't know, sort of like a halo effect, right? Like working I worked at NPR because I worked in public television on documentary side, on the documentary side. And I started 2016 when podcasts were really becoming a thing. And then once Spotify started buying podcast companies, really investing in it, it became not just a great thing in terms of content, but people saw it as an opportunity to make revenue. And so all of a sudden, you know, people have been working at NPR for decades, It was like the hot new thing all over again to be working in audio. And that put me on the radar of the folks at Apple, Apple Podcasts team. And it's sort of like once Apple, one of the part, one of those big companies, it's like all of a sudden everyone's attention kind of turns towards you. And so from there I got recruited to work at Netflix and from Netflix I got recruited to come work at Wondery and then lots of places in between. Asked, you know, recruiting me, asking me to come work on their teams. But that's kind of what it was like. There's a big rush, um, in podcasting and lots of growth in 2018 through, I'd say, 2021 that really allowed for some exciting opportunities to open up in, in the job market. And I was lucky enough to, uh, to be hired also because I was— I'm good at what I do and I'm a good person to work with. So yeah.

And starting with NPR, right? I think you worked on, yeah, TruLine, White Lies, No Compromise. See, like, Pulitzer, like, multiple times here. Uh, what, what was your role specifically in that? And it seems that, yeah, your work was incredibly high quality, right?

Yeah, so I was brought into NPR to help them figure out how they develop shows with people outside of NPR. So what was happening before is if you're NPR, you develop a show If you're on staff and mostly the only people who got to develop and host jobs were people who were already on air, either a host or kind of a high-profile contributor. And so they brought me on to kind of change that up and start developing people outside of NPR to help kind of create shows with different kind of voices and perspectives. And that's why I was able to work on all these great shows. So like Throughline, which was developed by to producers, and so I never developed a show in-house producers before, only like high-level kind of on-air talent. White Lies was a podcast. I knew one of the hosts, Andrew Beck Grace, from his work in documentary film when I worked in documentary film. And at the same time, I was like, well, why don't you try a podcast? And then he pitched me the show with his collaborator Chip Brantley, which became White Lies. So a lot across a lot of shows I was helping to develop and executive producer and bring them out to the audience and help, you know, working alongside with folks on the marketing team to make sure they're really connecting with audiences.

And then I see Apple, right? Like in 2020, Apple TV+, Apple Music, and retail. How did Apple's podcast strategy change during those years?

Yeah, so that was again a really exciting time because there's two things happening. One was that Apple Podcasts, the way they have felt and still I believe continue to feel, is that they are a referee, not a player. So Apple Podcasts doesn't want to create shows that will maybe compete with the partners they work with day to day. But other teams within Apple and departments within Apple were developing podcast strategies like retail, like Apple TV. Lightbooks. I was brought in to help them understand, help them develop their strategies and kind of help them, guide them through that process, finding the right collaborators to work with, helping to make sure that the content is as strong as possible. And at the same time, what Apple Podcasts was doing is creating— sorry, works for it— got there creating Apple Podcasts monetization, Apple Podcast subscriptions, right? So how do we, how do you create a way for these podcast creators to monetize their content within the app. It's also a little bit challenging because for a long time people were getting this content for free and you're trying to tell them, like, convince listeners who got this for free other than listening to ads, it's like, this is content you love that's really worth investing in because it helps us, helps the creators continue to do the work that you love. So those are the two big shifts that were happening at Apple Podcasts when I came on at the time.

And what did that mean for podcasters, right? Like, for example, my podcast, we still don't publish on Apple Podcasts, which I think is a big mistake, but, um, and neither do we on Spotify. But I'm incredibly bullish on YouTube, right? So what did that mean for, uh, podcasters back then? If you were a podcaster, how did that strategy shift affect them?

Yeah, it was, it was massive, right? Um, because it allows you to bringing in a stream of revenue that didn't already exist. And then especially that time in 2020, going into 2021, right, we had the pandemic, which was really destabilizing for advertising revenue, right? Also, people didn't— companies weren't— sponsors weren't spending as much on advertising revenue because things were just— everything was up in the air. And this has happened ever since, right? You know, people want to spend money before election. There's always like these ups and downs of fluctuation when it comes to advertising revenue. That's really hard to predict. So it allowed for another stream of revenue to come in for podcasters. And I think for a lot of people, made continuing possible, right? And it doesn't mean you have to be the biggest podcast in the world to monetize, right? You can have like 10,000 people, but those 10,000 people, a good portion of them are really dedicated listeners and they love what you do. They wanna support you. That's enough to make a living off of. So it was a huge shift. And by the way, I've slightly, I think, you know, pushed you on this before, which is I think you should be everywhere. You don't have to be loyal to only one podcast platform. You want to be accessible to where everyone can access you. And I'm still like, I'm old school. I started out listening to podcasts on Apple Podcast app. I will forever use that as my main app. So, you know, you don't want to miss people who are, you know, they have the routines built in, but they would probably still love your content.

Right, right. I guess use, uh, an app like Podcastles or, you know, these apps that allows you to publish to multiple platform. My case, I need to bulk export like all the 2,000 YouTube videos that I have. And yeah, seems like a low-hanging fruit still. Took me a while to do it for some reason. Um, Wondery was pretty big in the podcasting scene as well. I was like next on, uh, on your— well, let's not skip Netflix, right? Like head of, uh, podcast programming. So I didn't even know that Netflix was in the podcast game.

Yeah. So the podcast had started at Netflix several years before by this woman named Marie Batta, who's on the marketing team and really saw an opportunity to help create companion podcast content. And so I came on just to kind of, you know, really amplify the work that she had started and create more consistency, create more, you know, a variety of kind of content, making sure creating processes that allow for, I think, hopefully consistent growth across the podcast that would allow for, you know, us to work with different, different content teams within and marketing teams within Netflix. Also at the same time, they had just launched, they were launching Tudum, which is their editorial site that they use to promote podcasts. So a lot, for a lot of like kind of natural synergy between the work that Tim was doing, the work this podcast is doing. And that, you know, those sort of early days of trying to get the podcast, Netflix Podcasts on the app, which we were able to do with a couple shows. And now they're off and running with podcasts.

And have podcasts sort of pivoted to video? Like, are people, do people, because Netflix is a video platform, do people wanna see talking heads or they're still listening to the podcast without like really watching what's going on?

It's a little bit of both. There's research on this every single year and I can't remember the latest statistics, but last thing I read a couple, maybe a year ago was that like, you know, 70% of people who consume podcasts on YouTube use it still as a second screen experience, right? So they have it up playing while they're in one tab while they're doing something else in another tab. And I think with, you know, where the streamers and everyone kind of be able to have them on the apps, they can play it on television, be part of a streaming experience. I think that's shifting and changing, but I think that's still a lot of ways in which people engage with podcasts, even video podcasts.

Right. And Wondery at the time is the next step after Netflix. Weren't they like the biggest in podcasting? Like, I mean, they were very much NPR level, if not more on the production side of things, right?

Yeah, Wondery, um, um, was— is a huge name in podcasts, and it's still— I mean, still just like shows like, I believe, um, maybe this is Kiki Palmer and New Heights. Some of those, um, shows still have— are still under the Wondery brand, whereas a lot of the narrative shows have moved over to Audible brand.

And weren't they acquired by Amazon around these, uh, days when you were there?

Yeah, well, they were acquired by Amazon before I got, I got to Wondery. So I think around 2020 or 2021, I can't remember exactly.

And what did that do for them? Was the acquisition well managed? Did it just inject more funds in them? What happened after that?

Yeah, I mean, I think it was, it did, it did well for Wondery, right? And Wondery was able to grow, um, um, a lot. And I think having the backing of a company like Amazon, right, only increases your, your visibility. The staff was able to grow, they were able to get, uh, really high-profile talent. Um, you know, they were, um, you know, on the series team, we had the goal of, of producing, releasing 10 limited series a year. They had the Wondery app that was really successful. So I think it did a lot for Wondery, right?

Talking about monetization of podcasts, right, like you probably listen to these podcasts every now and then and see a very cheesy app pop, right? Like, that doesn't look so authentic. How do you figure out that problem? Like, make money as a podcaster but also not alienate your audience?

Yeah, I mean, I think audiences are savvy, right? They understand, like, this is the thing that pays the bills, right? It's the same for podcasts on YouTube as, like, any other creator on YouTube, right? You you like this content, that's a little bit of the trade-off that you make. I think that, I think where there's most pushback is when like the number of ads, right? Like I understand the ad, but if I have to skip 4 minutes of ads at the start of your show to get to it, that's where I'm really starting to test my patience. I was like, I want you to make money, but how do we balance that with what an audience consumer experience is? And so it's less to me about the, the ad itself, but more about the experience as a listener and how much it is disruptive, right?

Um, the shows that you build, uh, how much work does it require in the, in the backstage to build like a very successful/legacy type of, uh, show that people keep on watching pretty much forever? And can that be outsourced to AI?

No, no, it's so much work. And like, even someone like myself has been doing this for 10 years, it's still always more work than I imagine it will be. Because there's just a million decisions that have to get decided every single day. You really have to make sure you're building a really strong team around and not just people who can do the job, but care a lot about doing a great job, right? And then you're constantly learning, right? You're writing a script, you're like, okay, this this works for this script and doesn't. Like, you know, I'm looking at the drop-off and listening like, hey, after 2 minutes, you know, those listeners are kind of skipping out, there's a big drop-off, what's happening, let's change, right? So, and you also want to understand like, what are things that could make people connect emotionally, right? AI can do a lot of things, right? And there's, as much as I have complained about AI, there's parts of it I have relented and have use AI to help me assist, but like anything related to the creative content and how do you connect, make sure this thing we're creating is connecting with listeners, I feel like has to be always really human-driven and not AI-driven.

But if there's so much work that goes in the background, if there's so much competition, it's so hard to build a show, maybe not for you, right? But for most people, How can a podcast make actual money? It's like logical question.

Yeah, I mean, I think there's a couple things, right? One is, especially when you're starting out a show, there is, um, it's been a lot more time kind of figuring out as you go along. We're actually in the process of production on the show that's launching August 12th. It's really exciting. The new team came together, uh, last month. And so you're learning, you know, the quirks of what it means to build a team and work together.. But then doing that, you, with each episode, right, you get tighter, you move faster, you move quicker. And there's things that like take up, because what takes up a lot of money, makes a lot of money, or creates a lot of the burden around the resources, is the time it takes to make something. And you just kind of refine, you get better until like there's less cost where you can do, or you can do more episodes because you have like a system that's down, everyone's down, got down really pat, and you can kind of move quickly. And then I think it's just about, you know, trying to right-size the team and right-size the process so you can be as efficient as possible. But the problem and danger is, I think, with bringing in AI, especially because a lot of shows I work on are narrative, right? They're deeply scripted, right? And so you— it takes It's a lot of craft, and craft is super important and can't be just passed off to AI because otherwise you lose the thing that makes it special, the things that actually makes people want to listen. And so that's something you can't compromise or skimp out on. And there's other ways where like, okay, maybe this— we don't do this with this show or whatever it is, we can find other trade-offs. But when it comes to the craft, that's not something we can pass off. It's worth it. Like, think about the best shows that you love. If all of a sudden the same producer and the story editor are gone for AI, it'll no longer be the show that you love.

Well, the sponsor of this podcast, it's called The Greats. It's a faceless YouTube channel, right? And it's built fully by AI's NotebookLM and all these technologies. And that's what I listen to the most nowadays as a CEO and a founder. I mean, is not like a true crime story, right? Like, I'm a CEO, I'm a founder, I listen to stuff that can make money for me. So it's one, the education side of things. But I think I prompted the AIs to constantly hook the listener back and tell a very compelling story. Um, and I think it works, you know, like the average listen time is like, uh, 6 minutes. But I do have some videos that are 22 minutes, right? Like the story of Alexander the Great, for example. Yeah, what do you think about that? And I think AI is not so— you can give a listen to the channel, it's mostly subtitles, the video, there's no like images or videos. But I think AI is not that far with like models like SeedDance to actually create like fully compelling videos with that. What do you think about this?

Yeah, I mean, listen, there's a— I don't want to— I used to teach summer camp and after-school production, after-school video production classes. So I used to always say, I don't want to yuck anyone's yum. It's like my favorite saying, right? So— or another way to say it is, if you like it, I love it. But I think for me and what I listen to and consume and what I make, I see the value in what you're doing and how it has an audience that it's reaching and having an impact on. I also then see the value of what the kind of work I'm doing and the kind of shows we're making and kind of impact it has on the audience. And I think also because a lot of times we're working on stuff, it's like, it's, you know, it's all new reporting investigation, right? So it's, you're really having to go out and talk to people and figure out what the story is, right? And that's something, again, that can't be done through AI.

So my AI scraped the work of investigative journalists, right? So we still need like investigative journalists in the end.

I'm sure there are investigative journalists who are upset by the fact that AI is scraping their work, right? Because of course, obviously, you know, the big thing, the big danger, and I think what especially is for everyone in podcast industry is like, Well, does it eventually replace me? Because I love this work that I do and I want to keep doing it.

Well, we just need a model that pays everyone, right? Like in the, the process. So like some kind of Google API that pays per scrape or whatever. I don't think Google pays these investigative journalists, but they, you know, these guys pop on Google, so without Google they wouldn't pop. Right, so that's, that's like the dichotomy. They also need Google for views, right? Um, I guess it's about crediting them as well, right? Like, uh, this podcast was researched by the work of blah blah blah, and just give them the credits.

Yeah, I mean, that, that could be definitely a model. I mean, there should be some kind of model, right? Like, to— for a company to come in to make, you know, billions— still not, not enough to be fully making, um, but to make billions off of the work, uh, of others, and there's like no return, right? That is— and then at the same time you're endangering the industry. Yeah, it's kind of unfair.

Well, we need investigative journalists as a society, straight up, right? Like, not, not so that they can destroy people, right? Because there's also the dark side of investigative journalists, like people that profit off destroying other people with their books and all of that. But we, we need like the information to, to come out. Why? Because it's such like a PR society, right? Everything, especially in business, is like, oh, look at the best version of me, while behind the scenes there's all kinds of shit going on.

Yeah.

Um, and I'm talking about AI because like you're talented and you spend some time at all these companies. Like most people are don't have a clue, right? So my thesis is like, why don't they start with some kind of AI template and then they learn? Which is what, which is what arguably I'm doing with this Faceless channel. I'm learning from the prompt and how AI builds a story and all that, and I'm taking mental notes, right? And with that, my brain is like growing as it goes and is learning these kinds of things that they taught you at journalist school and all of that. Uh, that's That's my thesis. What do you think about it? Because I think it's quite hard for people to get like to genius level from the get-go and hatch this amazing first podcast, right?

Yeah. Well, I think there's a couple things, right? What you're explaining, how you're going about using it, I think that is the aberration. That's exception and not the rule. Because I think there's now studies that show that the more people have continued use, continually use AI, the less they actually are constructively thinking or constructively problem solving, right? And so what you're doing is like you're you're kind of forcing yourself to learn from the AI, right? But I think that's not what's usually what's happening with people. And if anything, there's a little bit of a brain drain that's happening and people are starting to see that in schools and high schools with youth, right? And so I think that's, I think one, that's a challenge. If that was how people were using AI, I think I feel a little bit differently, but that's kind of not been the case. And I think for me, I know I started off, I just think about how I started out coming out of grad school and undergrad, like the thing I used to do all the time that sucked but got paid money was transcribing, right? And it was so tedious, but especially I was like working as an assistant editor or something, I had to transcribe. I knew the tape better than the editor, better than director, better than anyone else. And that made me indispensable, indisposable for that team. And it allowed me to kind of rise up. And I— so I think like as much as you can templatize things in AI, it could be helpful, can be a time saver. But I don't think it's actually teaching people or allowing people to learn the skills they need to actually ultimately become better at their job. Because let's say you didn't— like, that person didn't have access to AI starting next week and they had to do that podcast. Would they actually know? Would the person know what to do? Would they know kind of what makes a good select to take to a pool? How do you like kind of create an outline that really drive the listener from Act 1 to Act 3? How do they kind of craft a sentence that would make someone laugh or cry or think differently about something, right? So those are— as much as I think AI is really helpful and there's ways you can definitely bring it into the production process, there's real skills that need to be learned all along the way. They can only do by actually doing the task yourself.

Yeah, doing the work. It's hard, right? Because AIs are growing at a pace of, I don't know, 1,000x per day. So my question is like, how can we supercharge that process, right? The learning process. Maybe just focus on the essential, right? Like you mentioned the emotions a couple of times. I think that's an essential, right? Like humans think in emotions. AI can try, but it's not so good. Humor is another gigantic one, right? Storytelling. Um, AI can do some kind of good work, but yeah, I think if someone can focus on these— and then there's the full production thing that is also complicated. It seems like the, the barrier to entry to start a very successful podcast like Through the Roof. What about like, uh, interview podcasts like Zane Lowe, right? You've worked at, uh, Apple. Um, have you given some thoughts about what makes a successful interview-based podcast?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it has— first of all, that the concept of the series has to be distinctive, right? Because I don't know how many podcasts are out there that interview. And when I was at Apple, the statistic was there are 40,000 new podcasts that come out every single week.

Oh my God.

Now, how many of them get to episode 2? It's like, that's a dramatic drop, right? But And that's not counting the millions that are already out there, right? So how do you make your show distinct, kind of rise above the noise? And I think that's where you start, right? Like the fact that like you have a show where you're interviewing CEOs, that's live, that idea is it's no prep, quick, like let's ask some quick conversations, prompts. Like that's great. That's distinctive, right? And so it's like, what is it? Well, it's getting there, right? It's getting there, right? But it also then it's like, what's your point of view, right? So I think it's really understanding kind of what is the unique value proposition for the show, for the audience. So they want to listen to your interview podcast over maybe the 3 others that are coming out at the same time, or the 3 others that are already part of their rotation, right? And then it's about having like, what is the kind of like vibe and rapport that you have throughout the podcast as you're listening? What is the focus of interviews, right? You know, I listen to a lot of comedy podcasts, right? And sometimes you know like, oh, this person's making the rounds because they got this movie coming out, and I could see them on Jimmy Kimmel, and then I could see them on Dax Shepard, and I could see them on Smartless, right? That's not exciting. How do you make it different? And I think the reason why— one of the reasons why I love Good Hang, um, so much, Amy Poehler's podcast, um, when it first came out, I was like, oh God, another silly podcast. But like, she's someone who you can tell she does the research herself. She's deeply curious person, a driven person, really smart, ambitious. And she wants the guests to feel good and you to feel good, or you're all good while they're, you know, watching the show. And that's what makes that show kind of distinct. And now it's a Golden Globe-winning podcast.

So yeah, yeah, just come back to basics as well for like people that are starting. I feel like grit, right? And most, most importantly, like ikigai. Do you really like interviewing people? Are you really like curious? And me, that's the reason why I keep doing it. Also, there's a, a cash aspect to it, right? Like, I speak to ambitious CEOs and founders, they become my clients, right? So I believe having, um, different mechanisms around these lines can help. Um, Theo Von, you— have you listened to Theo Von? Started as a—

I've only, I've only, um, seen clips against my will on social media.

He's been incredibly successful.

Yeah.

Um, He's, he like started with the funny vibe. He's a comedian, obviously. And then, uh, more serious interviews. Uh, Joe Rogan's another one. There was even Mike Tyson at some point. Mike Tyson and his own podcast, Hotbox, and was pretty fucking good. Um, it broke up for some reason. Mike Tyson must be a hard person to work with sometimes because he's like all over the place.

Yeah.

Um, but that one was, was pretty good. Yeah. And it just catches your attention, like, I guess odd people, people that are different, right, and bring like different vibes to the table. Yeah. Um, and Theo Von, I guess, his vulnerability as well. He like shares and then he has the question, right? And people look at him, it's like, yeah, I'm comfortable just like sharing more, but they don't realize they share to the world, right?

Yeah. Um, vulnerable to get— especially like he has high-profile celebrities, right, and politicians, right, to get them to be— if you're using your vulnerability to get people to drop down their guard that makes it for a better interview.

Yes, yes, yes. And I, I think, uh, Zane Lowe is quite good at them. And Noji was like Nerdwar as well. You remember Nerdwar?

Yeah, yeah.

That guy was like super good at getting people—

I mean, it's like Nerdwar and like Sean Evans are like, um, Sean Evans. Yeah, things of, of deep, deep research and appreciation for their guests.

Sean Evans is hilarious. There's like a very basic physiological mechanism, like make them like physically distress so that like all their guards goes down. It's pretty genius. And people thought it was stupid, right? But, uh, we know where he ended up. I think he got acquired, actually. Um, Nijiri, thanks for being on today. Where can, uh, people find out more about you?

Yeah, you can, um, go to our website typecstudios.com, uh, find us on LinkedIn. We have a sub— Substack, typecstudios.substack.com, or Instagram. So yeah. Especially if you're looking to make a podcast, you want to market your existing podcast, grow your audience, figure out how to do video, kind of have overall questions around strategy, production, etc.

Thank you so much. I was Nigerian Charles from another founder