Why Pokemon and Lord of the Rings Scaled

Welcome to another Founder Wisdom Pod. We have David Taemin Kim with us today. He creates worlds where people want to live in at Mitrail. He's co-founder and CEO of that company in Vancouver. I've watched you, Lou, educated, which is why I reached out. Spent some time in the Valley, I believe, and from Korea, right, David, if I'm not mistaken.

That's right, born in Korea, Canadian. It's great to see you, Charles. Thank you so much for having me today.

Yeah, yeah, tell us a bit more about yourself and Mitro.

Yeah, so basically the setting is 2010. You know, my parents gave me an ultimatum. David, you either drop out of university, go to law school, or go to med school like every Asian kid. So I chose law school because it was the easiest path. I hated it after the first year, I dropped out. I got desperate and I applied to this like writing contest and I became one of the first web novels in the world to cross 1 million readers and got a licensing deal. But the deal got stuck for 5 years. I got the rights back. By the time I got the rights back after 5 years, the audience had already moved on. So that's when the problem and the journey actually started. And I recently started Mithril last year with great backers and my great co-founder Sanju. And our mission is to help creators build the next Lord of the Rings and Pikachu.

Pikachu and Lord of the Rings. Interesting. Aren't both like super different from one another? Like, wouldn't Lord of the Rings be more on brand with what I'm seeing?

Yes, um, they're the complete economies and opposite trends of their whole spectrum, right? And that's the whole, the point of Mithril. So basically, in 1935, Tony Allen, uh, the co— the founder of Penguin, uh, he pioneered the paperbacks. Which made books a lot cheaper. But the problem with that movement was it trapped all stories into a linear format and the downstream of the world that's actually more valuable. So characters like Pikachu, maybe the setting like Hogwarts or Harry Potter, lightsabers and Jedi of Star Wars, those create the most commercial value and the most emotional resonance with the audience and creating the downstream culture. But those were obviously deprioritized into actually the form of simply telling stories. Which I don't think is where the true value actually lies. And as an author, I experienced that firsthand. And there are hundreds of thousands of authors and stories out there just that are just completely on the shelves who have actual commercial value and the cultural value but are ignored because of the inefficiencies of the current system in terms of licensing.

How did you get into this, right? Because I believe you were the author of South Korea's first successful online sports novel. Uh, it's called Moonpia. You got like 1 million views. So tell me a bit about how you got into this.

Yeah, so Mumpia is a Korean web novel platform that kind of pioneered the commercial and paid web novel system, uh, before the Wattpad became a huge sensation in North America. Um, so I published one of the first successful web— paid web novels when it was being commercialized in the first place, and it was in sports and it was in basketball, which I always wanted to do but couldn't because of lack of talent. Um, and I wrote the novel, it became a huge viral sensation, uh, it crossed 1 million readers. And yeah, that's basically how everything got started. But initially I wrote that novel so that I can practice Korean because I wasn't really good at Korean before. But very blessed that things happen that way.

Interesting. And why get into book writing nowadays, uh, if it's less commercially viable? Is it like more on a passion side of things? Like, uh, tell me a bit more.

Yeah, so the, the biggest trend in, um, in writing and fiction right now, um, is not writing a book, but it's writing something what they call lit slog. Basically writing a short-form TikTok-like web novels where you read per chapter with different introduction, highlight, escalation, and resolution per chapter. Um, but it feels and reads like a TV series. So the engagement between the creator and the fan is so much more important. Um, the iteration and the feedback is also so much faster. Um, so it, it feels more like a, a product in a world that you live with the author instead of something that you wait for 6 to 1, uh, 6 months to a year. So it's a great time to write a story because you can get a commercial reaction much faster., you know, and you can not only commercialize it into that format of a web novel, but it's much faster to expand it into different formats like webtoons or other games because of the rising tools of AI and other creative tools, right?

Um, how do you build an audience? I think you're pretty good at this, but most people like actually suck, right? Let's say you have, uh, your first couple of chapters, like where should you look at? I saw some Reddit growth hacks on your LinkedIn and so forth. So how do you actually commercialize work of art?

Yeah, I think that's a really good question. I think the first thing we need to be honest about is most people are not great at creating art that can resonate with the audience. But the reason web novel is such a great format is because you can iterate. It's kind of like a startup, right? You can see how people react, you can see what they're not good at. But I think initially, at least in my lane the web novel and the storytelling, you need to really focus on the character because that's what people attach to the fastest and the most. And they need to experience that burst of struggle, you know, resolution. And you need to set a goal for the audience to actually follow. And that has to be done in the first, I believe, 2 to 3 paragraphs of the first chapter. If you don't do that, if you try to lay out the perfect world from the start, no one's going to follow you.

And do you sell these on your own platform? Do you use other platforms to sell them? Is Kindle still relevant, right? Like, where, where do you actually sell these?

Yes, so in Asia, what's interesting is they make you pay per chapter. So they give you like— yeah, they make you, um, why they give you, they give you 25 chapter access for free. And remember, these are page-turners, right? So they feel like a TV series that you're following. So after 25 chapters, they maybe give you like a loan, like a ticket that you can use to loan it maybe for the next couple days. And once you use that, you don't have any cash left, so you have to actually pay to read per chapter. So you pay, let's say, $20 to get like 200 cookies. That's what they call it. You spend that cookie to purchase the next chapter. In North America, we're not used to that. So we go for subscription models where, hey, you pay $10 to the author and the platform takes like 30% or 40% and the author keeps the rest. So that's how the model usually works.

Interesting. Who do you target then? Do you target folks in North America, folks in Asia with Mithril? Like, who's your ICP?

Yeah, just quickly speaking, Mithril is an AI licensing network platform. So for us, people who use our product can use our product essentially for free. So these are web novel authors who use our product to organize their world, and then we help them license it with the licensees. And when they actually license, you know, when licensees come, evaluate the characters in the world, they decide to license it, we take 20% cut.

Okay, so $10 a month and 20%, or—

oh, sorry, so that $10 a month, I was just explaining how the actual market works. Between how the creators, how the writers actually make money in today's marketplace right now.

Okay, okay. Um, but which your platform, like the ICP, is it authors, that the existing authors, that people that are coming up and want to have their own books, right? Like, did you define this?

Yes, so our ICP are web novel fiction creators who actually have already have an audience on different type of platforms, and we simply help them package those characters and assets visualize their fan signal, and then match them with the licensees that can evaluate and purchase the licenses. That's all we do.

Okay, and it's only images, the novels?

No, no. So these, uh, these novels are obviously text, uh, as we start. Um, when you say images, do you mean like, do they have like character assets and visuals?

Well, the page-turners you described, right? Like, I, I thought these were like images mostly.

Um, I see. So when I say page-turners, I mean they're written in a way that makes you want to turn the page instead of trying to understand. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the format, if you actually try to read these web novels, the format of the structure of the writing is so different. For example, let's say a traditional web novel might have like a paragraph of, I don't know, like let's say 10 sentences or 8 sentences. These, because you're reading them on mobile, they would have like maybe 2 or 3 sentences at max. So you can kind of feel how fast-paced, uh, the transition and progress of the story would be.

That's intriguing. So, uh, Harry Potter or, um, J.R.R. Tolkien's, uh, Lord of the Rings, they weren't written in that way, um, right? Like, but aren't these books like still page-turners, um, they, they were long form but still like had the fans like turn page after page and become addicted to them and be like super promoters of the actual franchise. So how were these books doing back then vs. now?

Yeah, so I think that's mainly due to how people's attention span has changed in the last— which is sad, which is sad. But at the same time, I think, um, like how long-form podcasts are really great for a certain audience and certain stages of those audiences' life and their preference. And I think short-form content is also great in whatever purpose that they serve, as long as you're not trying to use short-form in any very malicious ways. So web novels are great for people who are looking for entertainment and people who like to talk about characters and fantastical worlds that they're into. And I think that's great for the audience who wants that, who prefer that, whatever stage that they're at. But we're starting with the web novel web novels because just a great wedge in terms of what people are aligned to right now. But we do support long-form traditional authors, maybe people from like Penguin Random House who wants to license their work without going through the inefficiencies of all the traditional licensing agencies.

You know the Hill Figure episode I sent you from my channel? It's sort of, uh, saying— it's sort of doing exactly what you're saying. So the, the videos, you'll watch them, I think you'll like them. It's just like subtitles on the screen And every single subtitle is not longer than one sentence. So like every couple of seconds it forces you to recheck what's happening on screen, right? I think that's, that's quite intriguing. Do you think it's— do you think like even book readers have the TikTok attention span? Don't you think it's like a different audience? Or do you think, do you think that all attention spans are going to zero basically?

No, actually, no. So my take is that it's not a linear process, just like how, you know, Tony Allen pioneered paperbacks. And but before that, the way storytelling worked, especially with— I mean, again, I don't want to talk about The Odyssey here. It's a different— obviously, it's a different discussion point. But Homer and the Iliad and all those things, they didn't start with books. They start with storytelling in different formats, like maybe oral stories, maybe musicals, even Shakespeare. And then it became books in the later future as another derivative format. So that's how I view any type of long-form format or short-form formats, even TikTok. I think they all have their usage, they all have their purpose, and people might have shorter attention span, let's say now, but let's say they get more used to listening to podcasts. That also changes their brain chemistry and how they react to these formats of, of content. And I think that's just the phase in the cycle that we're in right now. So I don't think it's like a complete linear process of progress.

So do you think my podcast format's sort of genius for smart people? That is right. I combine words and videos and audio all at the same time. Is that the convergence of the brain's understanding? Like reading subtitles, white on black? Do you think that's a cool format?

I think it's a cool format for certain people. For example, my wife hates reading subtitles of any kind, so obviously it does isolate some audience. But I think anytime you try to combine different type of information relay mechanisms, whether that is images, videos, or text, I think you're doing a really, really useful job for the audience.

Right. I think, I think it's pretty smart. My audience also like CEOs and founders, like high-value people, right? I'm not trying to be like the next MrBeast. Also, MrBeast, I was like 77 years old, like 7-year-old crack addicts, right? It's pretty sad because like constantly firing their brain with like dopamine type of porn. What do you have to say on that? Like, you have kids, right? I'm pretty sure you don't like flash MrBeast in their face, like Are you careful and worried about their attention span?

Yeah, so I might be a little bit of a contrarian, and some people might hate me for this. So obviously I never show MrBeast, and I don't expose my children to long screen time. But there are cases where I explicitly and intentionally use short-form content to grab their attention. So what I would do is this, right? Let's say I want my kid to have more outdoor experiences. Bought him a bike because he wanted to do so, but he doesn't want to ride the bike because he's a kid. His preference changed every day. What I would do is I'll show him like 10 seconds of, let's say, let's say a 6-year-old or 7-year-old doing like a really big jump on the bike, but something maybe manageable. And that really increases obviously his dopamine attractions to that sport. And then he would like literally try to drag me out to try that thing on maybe a smaller jump. So I think, I think those are very useful in those ways. And I tried to do that even for reading, um, and maybe like thinking about creative fantasy worlds and characters, um, with my son and my daughter. Um, so yeah, I just tried to use them at whatever disposal and, you know, use cases that I have.

Or another cool thing would be to explain the mechanics and the systems of the video, right? Like how it works, how the creators makes money. Maybe show them like a YouTube analytics backend and be like, hey, this is how this guy makes money. Maybe slow the video down so that they can understand like the structure, the hooks of it.

Exactly.

And explain him the ethics, right? Like, hey, this, this, this is what happens when a kid is like on this type of drug for the first 10 years of their lives, you know, like in adulthood they may be unable to forge lasting scalable relationships or launch a business, right? Because the business is hard and it's not rewarding like instantly, right? Like providing the— provide them the old boring education. But I think with like the tools we have nowadays, we can explain them like vividly in colors with videos of like the dynamics behind that. What do you think?

100%. I think the worst thing is just giving them the video during lunchtime. While we're having lunch outside, just because we just can't— just because we want to enjoy some quality time together. But then you're not really having quality time together, obviously. And I think one time I told my son, hey, do you see why there was that transition between that scene and that scene? That's because he wants to capture your attention. I literally said that. And thank you for bringing that up. That's actually amazing. Yes.

How do you interact with your son and explain him your business?

So what I do is I tell him, hey, do you see that Pikachu? Do you see how that Pikachu got popular? That's what I tried to do with less popular creators, um, and that's basically what I tell him. And he's like, well, that's cool, um, and we move on in our day.

Who is the genius behind Pikachu and Pokémon generally? Like, I feel we can't like forget Pokémon and Yeah, this is really interesting.

So, um, did you know that Pikachu was not supposed to be the mascot of Pokémon?

Nope.

Yeah, so there's a Pokémon called Jigglypuff. It's a Pokémon that goes around and starts singing and you fall asleep, right?

I believe that Pokémon was supposed to be the mascot, which is lame because Jiggly is like— I don't know, Jiggly is like, uh, she's, she's angry. She paints people's face, she slaps them.

Which is weird, right? But it's perfect, right? And, um, Jiggly doesn't really have any amazing cool moves, at least now that we understand it as an adult. But Pikachu, what's really interesting is, um, it— when it started as a Pokémon Red and Blue, the game, the black and white Game Boy, I believe, and I believe in the '90s, late '90s, um, they chose to transition to Pikachu, uh, not because Pikachu was just cute, but because, because they could engage in different type of battles and have different mechanism that could interact with different type of audience and different formats. So for example, Pikachu looks great in a, a black and white game. Pikachu also looks great as a plushie. Pikachu also looks great in a, a fighting game. Pikachu could also work in an animation, um, a solo animation. And they realized that, um, basically after launching the game, it wasn't necessarily because people love Pikachu, because Pikachu didn't really appear in the first, uh, two Pokémon games., as a popular Pokémon. Pikachu became initially popular because of the animation. And so after testing with different formats, they realized certain aspects of their story was more popular and had more commercial potential. So it's the same thing if you publish a book. Whatever that's popular with that book is not going to be exactly the same with, let's say, a different format in a webtoon, or let's say an animation. Or even as a plushie. So giving creators this option to be able to license their work to different formats from the get-go as a creator, democratizing that power to the creator is so powerful. And I think Pokémon was a perfect example to really represent that.

You've probably grown up on Pokémon as well. Have you studied the mechanics? Did the series came before like the Game Boy Color game, which like really solidified, or Which was, which one was the chicken? Which one was the egg?

Yeah, so this is a classic example of creator having a giant vision that's much more bigger, but he downscaled it into scope that the audience, the ICP, will love. So I believe Pokémon, there were some pre-game creatives being published and out in the public. I believe there was, but it didn't gain any mainstream reaction. Pokémon started in Japan as a Game Boy, um, black and white, pure, you know, I believe it was called Pokémon Red and Blue, but at that time, and that was the perfect scope for that product. Let's say if they had launched second generation or third generation with all these features of Pokémon following you behind the back, and maybe you engage the Pokémon, all these advanced features, I don't think the product would have been successful. It was just so simple It was great.

The story itself, what was genius about it, right? Like, this starts with Professor Oak, small time, small town. Ash Ketchum was like a nobody, right? He met a couple friends, defeats the gym leader, goes on into wild adventure. I love that Japanese aspect, right? I forgot what it's called, but it's like spend time in the wild, right? Like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What was the genius behind the, the arc here? There was Team Rocket, I think that was added, uh, there was a rival, right, like Gary, his cousin or whatever. Like, it had all the, the elements of a good story, right?

Yeah, the animation really did a heavy job of making it mainstream. But kind of, let's go back to the game, uh, when it first came out. The brilliance was, I think it did two things right. Um, number one, um, Pokémon didn't really give you a story as a game. It basically dropped you into this world and you have to go catch these Pokémon, these animals. You have to make them fight, which if you think about it, it's such a primal—

it's genius because we all have it in us, right? We all want to win.

Yes.

And also the option we can choose from water, fire, or grass from the get-go. That choice is keen here.

That's right, that's right. Although I believe 80% of Pokémon players, they only had one or two Pokémon that basically wiped out their entire opponents. However, the promise but the promise was what's important, right? You can catch 151 Pokémons, um, you can explore this world, you can fight all these trainers, beat them, take their money, and you become the champion. Um, that was just great. And the animation added a linear progression story into that, something that you could follow consistently. So it had both— it has a linear progression had the open world that you can just get lost in. And I think doing both just really made Pokémon something that you want to live in as a world, right?

And the trainers you fought along the way all had personas, right? You had the jocks, you had the karate, uh, trainer, you had the hiker, right? It's— and the evolutions of the Pokémons, again, leveling up is so fundamental to humans, like Don't fight human laws and evolution, just go with them. What about Lord of the Rings, which is like a fundamentally different genre?

Yeah, Lord of the Rings also does both. Lord of the Rings gives you a world that you want to get lost in and gives you a linear progression that you want to follow of good versus evil, right? You need to beat Sauron, you need to protect the ring, blah blah blah. You have to take the ring to the mountain and then you have to drop it, you have to destroy it. And but at the same time, you also want to be part of the world. And I think Lord of the Rings, that's why, has a very— a lot of similarities in those aspects with how Pokémon, uh, became so successful. Um, I haven't seen any, any type of art or any type of product that provides both from the get-go. Like, they really, they really designed the world in detail and out of scope but they reduced it to a scope that the main audience could actually enjoy and consume, which is again, it's fascinating.

Well, I think again, it's like the classes and the choice, right? Like Lord of the Rings, the person can identify to the hobbits. I would never identify with the hobbits. I would choose like Legolas, right? Uh, shooting arrows and like doing acrobatics, or you can be a human, Aragorn, or you can be like the underdog Gimli, which is like short but like wrecks everyone, right? Or, or the strong Gandalf. So they give the class option, and I think people in life, they, they want to identify to one thing. Um, plus the storyline is just epic, right? Uh, yeah, we could talk about the movies and the music and And the slow progress, I think that was genius. It's not for everyone. It's like dark as well. It's very dark, right? It's like there's not a lot of light. And when there's light, it's like celebratory and the music accompanies. But, and yeah, the teamwork, right? Like taking all of these factions and putting them together. I think there's a very strong team to fight the evil, right? I think that that was a very strong team in Lord of the Rings.

100%. 100%. And I think one word that keeps consistently being coming out here is, um, class, character. What actually reduces that down is into something called a trope or a stereotype. I think a stereotype or trope is extremely powerful, and I think that's what modern stories actually lack, uh, this comfort to introduce a stereotype or trope that's relevant to the story And I think people are attracted to those things because it's easy, right? We talk about how you shouldn't put people in a box, but actually you should. If you want to create a great story, engaging story, you should put people in a box. You should put story in a box because you give them a rule to play with. And that is a fundamental law of great storytelling that was invented like hundreds and thousands of years ago. That's, I think, sometimes lost today.

And again, uh, human nature. Humans, you know, people talk about anti-racism and all of that, but humans fundamentally, they box people. Like, just like it or not, we box people. So why not start with obvious fucking differences? Be like, all the characters are 100% different. Like, there's no questions about it. And then you can choose which one you identify yourself with, right?

Yes.

Instead of like being, oh, it's Black character from the get-go, it's like, okay, but who identifies to it? Although I do identify to— one of my favorite comic is Black Panther, right? Which arguably was made for Black people, but I like the Black Panther hero so much. I think there's a lot of genius behind that one as well. Um, yeah, you know, I could spend lots of time discussing all these series. We can do another edition about Harry Potter. Um, but till then, David, where can people find out more about you?

Yeah, so people can find more about Mithril at mithril.io. By the way, Mithril is M-Y, not M-I, so sorry for the old, uh, 1980s maybe fans of Lord of the Rings. Um, but yeah, people can find out about us, and, um, we're about to launch a licensing network to help fiction creators, uh, starting with web novels but expanding into game development, animation, webtoons, to allow these independent creators to turn them into potential everlasting franchises.

There you go. That was David and Charles Cormier for another