Yassine Benali - CEO at Okadoc

Welcome to another CEO Wisdom podcast. We have Yasin Ben Ali with us today. He's defining the next era of digital transformation at Okadoc. He's been building Okadoc the last eight years in Dubai. Was an entrepreneur. He was head of global expansion investment at UAE Royal Office, Royal Family Office. So Yasin, welcome to the pod. Tell us a bit more about yourself and what you've been up to.

Thank you, Charles. Pleasure being here with you. So as you said, my name is Yassine. I'm Moroccan. I am the last male in my family. All my family are female. So I find myself highly, highly lucky to be surrounded by a lot of women. I come from a background of telecommunication engineering and investment banking. As you've said, I came here to Dubai about 24 years ago. I finished my studies here, and then I joined the Royal Family Office. I was driving a bit of expansion, business development expansion and investment for the family. And then in 2008, with a colleague of mine, we started Okadoc, which was basically trying to solve a problem that was facing every single patient in the world, is the ability to book an appointment with a doctor in a couple of clicks. So all of us, we book it through the phone. This is what we used to be. and we used to do. But our problem was everyone does it online, everything is online, so this should be online as well. So this is how we started. It's been an amazing journey so far, 8 years with a lot of ups and downs, a lot of learning as well, and a lot of excitement and passion and meeting a lot of exciting people as well in the field.

Yeah, I love it. So how does a Moroccan kid switch from there to UAE and doing all that trading stuff? What's your story?

So it's a very nice question. Look, I, I, when I finished my high school in, in, in Morocco, I went to Spain. So that was the closer thing. Everyone wants to go to Europe. You want to leave the family cocoon and you want to travel. So I went to Spain, I did telecommunication engineering, and then I decided, you know what, I wanted something much more exciting, much something that is unpredictable. So I wanted to go to finance. I wanted the Wall Street experience. The American dream. It was post-9/11. My parents did not want me to go to the U.S. They were a little bit scared. So then they said, "You want an American style of education? How about you go to the UAE and they have American universities there?" My father used to know some people in the royal family, so the royal family took me in here. They brought me to Dubai, and then they they were my family for. the next 24 years in Dubai. So this is how I landed in UAE.

And how was that first job? Was it stressful? And what did it entail precisely?

Look, coming here in the region, first of all, I've, I've been to the UAE once before 2002, so it's not an area of the world that I was, you know, very familiar with. I was very young. I was in— dropped into an environment that I don't know. But the, the university, the American university that I joined, was so exciting. I had such amazing professors, both in real estate and in investment trading, in investment banking as well. So I, I, I really keep an amazing experience, both from an educational perspective but also from the people that were with us, like my— the students. Very broad kind of spectrum of communities that come together from different nationalities, from different parts of the world, and you have that melting pot of culture, of perspectives, all of them into one thing. So this is— it was some— I remember those 4 years at the university, I was every time I was surprised and saying it's amazing what an Arab country, a Muslim country, has managed to achieve in comparison with the West. So for me, Europe, North America was, you know, this is the gold standard when it comes to education, but I had it in a Muslim country. So that was an amazing thing to discover.

Yeah, I believe Saudi, uh, is playing its card right as well on the business front. And right, like what, what we said when we started this call, bringing multiple nationalities in one place and Putting differences aside and just like focusing on one shared objective, right? Which is the definition of a community, by the way. So yeah, I think they played their card very well. How's business in Dubai nowadays? Is it growing? Is it getting exciting? I believe there's been ebbs and flows, especially with the war that started, right? So how have you experienced that?

Look, one thing that this region and this one thing that I've seen in this region is that they have a very high resilience to crisis. And I don't know what they do, but every time there is a crisis, they always find something that brings growth back. So there is this saying that I like that, that is part of Game of Thrones, where he says chaos is a ladder, right? So this is what they have been doing. So the 2008 crisis, they managed to get out of it. From the COVID era, they managed to get out of it. So Yes, the war is slowing things down. It's bringing some sort of instability, insecurity in the region that we were all thinking that this is something that will never happen in this area of the world, but it did. But to be very honest with you, the roads, traffic, it's like 2 years ago. It's like nothing is happening. You go to the malls, people are buying back to school. So honestly, the market is highly resilient. I think it's very short-term still. It's 6-8 months into this story so far, but the market is still, is still stable. So we see a lot of growth both on our side when it comes to the healthcare, not as we were planning, okay, obviously. So there are certain budget cuts, certain things that are slowing down, but there is still traction, there is still positive momentum.

And how's been Okadok? Tell me about that story. How did you decide to start it, and what's your role as a COO?

Yeah, so, uh, I am a COO and I'm also co-CEO and the board director at Okadok. Look, the, the— like I said, we started this venture in 2018 with very simple objective. We— when you look at e-commerce, you're capable of transacting online, getting your goods delivered on the same day or the next day hundreds of thousands of SKUs. You can book a hotel, you can book a ticket, you do your banking. But when it comes to healthcare, this is something that is essential. So you do not wake up one day and say, hey, today is a beautiful day, let me get an appointment with the pulmonologist, right? So when you go to healthcare, you're— something is bad, something is broken, right? So that experience should be as smooth, as efficient as possible. And it was not the case. It was you have to pick up the phone Call a receptionist, press 1, press 2, wait for 10-15 minutes, and you don't get sometimes an appointment the way you want it. So this is what we wanted to solve, and we wanted to solve it in a way that is efficient, that works for the patient. But also, if you want something to stick, you need to create adoption with the healthcare provider. So you need to solve problems for the healthcare provider as well. And this is one of the few things that we have done at the very beginning that made us very successful. and kept us growing. So from a booking platform when we started in 2018 to becoming a one-stop-shop patient engagement platform, or let's call it a digital front door for the healthcare providers. So we manage millions of appointments on a yearly basis. We have more than 70+ EMR integrations, and those integrations is what the pipes that drives all this interaction between the 2 platforms.

And how did you identify that problem back then, the telehealth thing?

Uh, look, so telehealth, uh, telehealth was second. So we did telehealth in 2020. So it was January 2020 when we started hearing that there is a potential pandemic that is coming. So very simple, we went and we searched if a pandemic happens, what happens. So what was coming is lockdown, lockdown, lockdown. So we said, if we want to— we have the bookings, you can book, but if I don't need to see a doctor, then I need telehealth. So in 2 months, and that was an amazing experience, first of all, we experienced the first time to work remotely. So we went from full-time in the office, everyone, to becoming fully remote and building that telehealth platform. So in 2 months, we went from a company that doesn't have telehealth to the largest telehealth provider in the region. We had more than 500 doctors available on the platform across 40 specialties available for patients to book and to, to see, where in the— in UAE you were not able to go outside of your house unless you had the police permit. You had to apply for a police permit to be able to go outside. So this is on the telehealth side, but on the On coming up with the idea of doing the booking. Look, like I said, all of us are patients, right? All of us. Sometimes I have kids. Those kids, they go to school, they get the virus on Monday, it incubates for 3, 4 days. Weekend comes, the moment you want to rest, they wake up at 2 o'clock in the morning with fever, right? So I have 2 options. Either I can go, and if I have Okadoc, I see the pediatrician of my daughter. I book, I see the appointment at 8:30 or 9 o'clock in the morning. I book it, I give her a painkiller or Panadol or whatever, I manage it, then I take her to see the doctor, or I go at 2 o'clock in the morning to an emergency, and which is a horrible experience both for me and for the— for my daughter. So all of us experience this, and this is what drove us really to, to, to, to build that technology.

Right. And where exactly, uh, is it, uh, used, Okadok? Is it mostly in UAE, uh, more mostly in Arab countries like Tell me a bit more.

So we started in the UAE. So we have about most— we have the private sector. A lot of big names in the private sector are using our technology. Also the public sector as well in 2023 started using our technology. So that was a big achievement for us. So we also have healthcare providers in KSA that are using our technology. And we have in Indonesia a little bit because all our tech team is based in Indonesia. So all our tech factory. is based in Indonesia.

Interesting.

We are— sorry, we are expanding in the GCC, so we have some facilities being deployed in Qatar and also in Europe and in Canada as well.

And how do you get your clients?

Look, clients, it's a B2B enterprise kind of sales, very long cycles. At the beginning, it was extremely difficult to get any client whatsoever, so we spent 2 years speaking to each and every healthcare provider in the region because nobody had online booking. So we went into that phase where we were educating the market. But when COVID came and lockdown came, then this is where everyone realized, oh my God, we do not have any digital capability to service our clients. So, and this is— that was the aha moment. All those 2 years paid off. So the way we usually work, it's Mostly on referrals. So when you get one client, basically all the work that you do, that CIO refers you to another one, and this is how you grow. It's not outbound calls. It's long sales cycle, 12 to 18, sometimes even 24 months. You work up the organization up and down, and you try to find out what are their problems, and you solve their problems. So you're not just selling a solution, you're selling a return on investment. It's not a cost center, it's an investment that they're making, so they need to see a return.

And what's the profile of the client precisely? Is it hospitals? Is it smaller clinics? Tell me a bit more.

No, so the profile, it's, it's large healthcare providers. So here in the region, we have what we call the mall of doctors. So basically, there is healthcare groups that have 5, 6 hospitals, 20, 30 clinics. So those are the type of clients we work with. So Yes, it takes a long time to onboard that client from a sales cycle perspective, but when you get it, you get 1,500 doctors. So if I had to go to a clinic because I have to do the integration with the EMR, from a technical perspective, it takes me the same time. So I would rather invest into that. And here, uh, we're working on a different product currently for the small clinics, so clinics that are 3, 4, 5 doctors. do not have a marketing department, do not have an IT department, use an EMR or a hospital information system that is very, very basic. So we're working on a platform that is a self-serve kind of platform. They go, they register, they have a white label kind of page that they have, and then they can book, manage their appointment for the patients.

Got it. Okay. And what do they have to pay you once they sign up? And if I'm a doctor, what do I get in return for what I pay you?

That's a very good question. Look, uh, so So the doctor does not pay and the patient does not pay. So usually it's the healthcare provider, so the company that pays a subscription on a monthly basis per doctor. So regardless of the number of appointments, because we manage 100% of all the appointments of the healthcare provider. So, and what we want, we want them to use it, we want them to adopt it. So we do not go on to any variable kind of charge. So this is a SaaS kind of subscription model. What the doctor gets— if we're talking about the doctor, not the, not the healthcare provider— the doctor gets the ability— he gets zero change management. So he keeps using his EMR or his hospital information system the same way. He does not need to use any other platform. That's number one. Number 2, and this is massive for doctors, we reduce no-show by 75%. So imagine if you are a doctor and your entire schedule is booked, and then you have 30 or 40% of your patients that day that do not show up. So basically you're sitting in your office and the patient does not come. It's like if I had the, you know, the, the podcast with you and you came and I did not show up. I did not even cancel, reschedule, or send an email. So this is one of the cancers of clinics, and the doctors, they don't like that. Second thing is, uh, is the fill rate. So, or, or the optimization of doctor's schedule is that even the, the most successful doctor that has a fully booked calendar for the next 2 or 3 months, if you look at his daily calendar, how many patients he sees, he will see at most 85 to 90% of those patients that have been already booked. So he has— he will have always 15 to 10% of patients that will have, you know, last minute changes, right? And as normally, as a receptionist, I will not be able to fill those slots. So what we do with our technology is that we have a function which says if I book an appointment, I can put request an earlier availability. So every time there is a change in the doctor's schedule, I get a notification so I'm capable of switching. So we optimize always that doctor's schedule. So from a doctor perspective, this is amazing for them because they don't lose time. Uh, and then they get— they're capable of doing video consultations. So sometimes, uh, they don't need to bring the patient to the clinic if it is a follow-up. They do a video call, it's 5, 6, 7 minutes, and that's it, and the end of the story. And the patient does not have to travel. They get that convenience, and the doctor as well. So from a doctor perspective, this is what they get.

Oh, what about the healthcare provider? They see their full staff, right? They can manage them and and see what's happening, see the economics, right? Like, tell me a bit more.

Yeah, so, so, so the ROI is 15x. So one of our clients did the, did the study on the first 12 months, and they, they got back in terms of revenues and cost cutting 15x what they paid us. And they made it public. So they went into an event and they made it public. So reduction of no-show, those are potentially revenues as a healthcare provider potentially put a lot of marketing and to book that patient. So that patient has already booked your slot, the bandwidth of your doctors. So that patient not showing up is lost revenue. That's one thing. Second thing, the adoption. So if you have a million patients per year that are booking through your facilities, through a call center you need 50, 60, 70 people working shifts to be able to manage those appointments. So when you have 1 out of 2 of your patients, half a million patients, that are stopped calling your call center, that they're booking, finding their doctor, managing their appointment, doing everything online, this is a saving from a, from a cost perspective. So, uh, the, the, the referral leakage as well, what we do is that especially if you go see a GP or family medicine and then that family medicine refers you to a specialist Usually there is about 40 to 45% referrer leakage. So those referrals, sometimes they do not go to the same group or they, or the healthcare provider, they go to a different one or they don't even happen. People, they forget about them, things get better, and then they kick the problem down the line, right? So we reduce this referrer leakage and this is also revenues that the healthcare providers see. On a private sector, it's more about unit economics, more about, you know, top line, bottom line, and efficiency. On the public sector, it's more about health outcomes, right? And access to population. So it's 2 different kinds of approaches, but the technology do deliver both. Our patient satisfaction on the public sector level, which is not monitored by us, it's monitored by the government, is in excess of 90%.

Wow.

And, and this is, this is one of the metrics that the public sector looks at.

Um, okay. And these health organizations, how do you get in touch with them? Is it cold email outreach? Is it LinkedIn outreach? How do you first appear on their radar?

Look, it's, uh, it's events. We go to the events, uh, we reach out to them also. For example, we reach out to the, the, this specific targeted people within that healthcare organization. And we always really rely on referrals, so, and word of mouth, uh, between us. So a CIO that was in this group and then moves to the other group always takes that referral with him, that business card. These guys have done an amazing job, he takes us with them. So this is how we, we work. We don't do cold calling and we don't do the, the normal, the fast-track kind of sales cycles.

How's been growth since you've started that company? Was 15 years ago.

How have you? No, it's it's been it's been eight years ago. Eight years ago. Eight years. Eight years ago.

Grown and especially during COVID What did you see happen?

Oh my God! COVID was crazy. COVID was like exponential growth. It's it's we were doing. Let's say maybe a few dozens of thousands of dollars a month, right? Uh, we went to more than $3 million a year. So that was exponential in terms of growth. So the growth in this kind of large enterprise B2B, uh, kind of sales, it's, uh, it's like stairs, right? So it takes you time onboard. And then when you onboard, you have a jump in the revenues, and then it stagnates a little bit, and then another jump. So it's, it's not linear, it's— but it has always been growing 40 to 60% year on year.

And how do you make sure to retain these clients and that they not churn? That seems to be another of your strengths.

Yeah, yeah. So 2 things, okay? So first of all, it's the ROI, the return on investment. So when we deploy the technology and when we off— when when the technology is live, we make sure to have a list of metrics that the healthcare provider— that we already agreed with the healthcare provider right from the beginning— and we make sure that we deliver on those metrics. That's number one. Number 2, uh, we have a customer success team that is dedicated for that healthcare provider. So that customer success team becomes, you know, the expert, the consultant, the go-to person to be able to create the adoption to create the, the awareness across the, the group, to talk to the doctors, and to close that feedback loop. So when we deploy the technology, it does not stick stagnant. We become partners, co-innovators, and co-creators with the healthcare provider. We have meetings with them on a monthly, quarterly basis, uh, with the top management as well as the middle management. We try to understand what are their problems, and we build our roadmap of features based on what they are facing and what they want to improve. So this is the third thing, is that the integration that we do with their existing systems, we do it in a way that gives us like almost zero change management, right? So the adoption becomes very quick, both internally and also externally. And that integration to their systems, the more the adoption is, the stickier the solution becomes, right? So as long as they see the return, as long as the technology works, as long as we are evolving with them and servicing them and delivering problem solutions to their problems, we don't— we have almost no churn. Almost no churn.

Interesting. And as a COO, is that the metric you own? Is like not churning? Is it not your clients churning? Because I saw your Co-founder and CEO as well. He's responsible, I guess, for new sales. How do you separate roles?

So, so, so I, I do, I do the sales. So I own, I own end-to-end the experience of a, a partner. It's from my side is end-to-end. So I oversee the sales, the implementation, and the customer success. And this is something that we've implemented and by, you know, trying multiple things and multiple recipes until we found the— so we have what we call the squads or armadas, right? So the squads is that when you go and approach a healthcare provider for a sale, it's not a sales team that goes, and then once the sale is done, then an implementation team comes in, and then once the implementation is finished, then the customer success team comes in. There is a squad that has sales, implementation, and customer success That goes to that client and lives with that client for as long as that client lives with us. So we own the metrics. So the sales cannot promise something that the customer success cannot deliver because they are going to be involved into that. And the sales will do the upsells, the cross-sells, and so on and so forth.

What's your main objective as the COO this year?

Uh, for me, it's— I really want to do an expansion in Europe. I've been working, and we've all been working on it for, uh, for almost a year and a half right now. So potentially we will have our first facilities that are going live at the end of this year.

Um, how big is the team right now?

Also, we are very lean. We are about 45 people.

Mostly in sales or mostly in customer support?

It's mostly tech, so about 55%, 60% in tech, and the rest is between sales, implementation, customer success, and the management as well.

And what's been the most challenging part of that business, last but not least?

Patience.

Patience.

The most challenging part is that when you are the— when you have that first mover into an industry or creating some sort of an industry in a region, you have to do that educational part and you get a lot of rejection, you really get a lot of misunderstanding, and you have to be highly patient, highly perseverant, and you need to really believe in your solution. At the end of the day, it will pay off, but you have to keep your head down. So that was one of the things that are— and again, when you are a small startup, let's say after 8 years we're still 40, 45, and where you are as a— let's say we are a vendor, okay? At the end of the day, they look at us as vendors sometimes, and you're dealing with a multi-billion dollar client. You are too small for them, right? So they have that kind of leverage over you. So this is one of the challenging things at the beginning, but then we become super partners. We become— the trust is there, the, the, the, uh, and, and we, we, we— the relationship really goes from, you know, a bit frictiony, fric— with friction at the beginning to something highly sweet and highly beneficial and productive at the end.

I love that. Where can people find out more about you, Yasin?

I'm, I'm on LinkedIn. I'm available. My contacts are available on LinkedIn. I, I also do some mentoring, and I'm also part of Create Apps Championship in, in the UAE. So I, I'm a jury as well there. So I'm available for anyone who needs help. I've, I've needed help and I got help, so I would like to return the, the change. Whoever needs help, whoever needs advice, I'm I'm very happy and we both learn, you know, some— you never stop learning.

That was Yassine and Charles for another