Digital TV Giants: Amazon, Google, and … Roku?

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Thanks. It's good to be here, Matt. Good to see you.

So according to the latest numbers from Nielsen, Roku channel generates 1.6% of all connected TV usage, which is bigger than Peacock, bigger than Max, bigger than Paramount, plus yet we don't really ever talk about Roku Channel. I think mostly because it's so connected to Roku devices.

Here, let me put it in context for you. You're right. We represent a significant portion of all of television and streaming now. And the best way to think about it is this. About half the broadband households in the country. So if you have a broadband connection and you're streaming television, but half the broadband households in the country get their television through our front door. And that's a remarkable thing in this day and age because one of the things you can't fake is scale. And so I used to be the CEO of Fox and before that ran amc.

We'll get to those.

Well, but what's interesting is I used to look over at what was Changing in the landscape. And there were just some things happening at scale on the streaming platforms that I didn't have access to. You know, you mentioned the size, but what's so interesting to me was always, you know, we didn't have first party data. You know, at Linear Networks, we didn't have, as you said, 85 million and growing logged on relationships. And you can't fake logged on relationships. That is, you know, we, we know who they are and we, we have their information so we can make it easier for them.

Yeah. Wasn't that why Fox bought Tubi?

Well, but what's interesting is, you know, Tubi doesn't have logged on relationships. You know, we literally are connected to these folks. They ask you to sign in, but you don't have to sign in.

Yeah, that's sort of their appeal. You can Google their shows and they just pop up. Right.

Or like many, many apps, you know, we represent a significant portion of their audience and you know, so look, if naturally, if half the broadband households are watching on the Roku platform, you would imagine the type of percentage we represent for most viewing across streaming. And so I looked at it and I thought, all right, so at a network, I could program my network. At an app, I could program my app. But here I really believe we have the opportunity to create better television for everyone. And I get to work with everyone's programming. What's so different about this job and why I love it is that I root as much for our original programming that David Eilenberger and his great team puts together as I do for when a new episode or a new season of the morning show. We probably have more people watch that on the Roku platform than on the Apple platform.

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, and this question is going to sound offensive, but it's not meant to be offensive. You guys compete directly with the biggest tech companies in the world. Apple tv, Amazon's Fire tv. You know, we mentioned Samsung.

Sure.

Like, how is Roku still a power player in this space when you're up against these players with such vast resources and that have other businesses that they can use to crush you?

Well, first of all, I'm not offended at all. I think. No, really. I mean, if you look at just the. Again, there's so many examples of our scale. But if you look at the next four platforms, which I think are Amazon, Samsung, Apple tv, we're bigger than the four of them combined.

But why, why is that still the case? I know it's easy and I know it's cheaper and you don't have to be in their ecosystem. Like those are all reasons I get, but like I would have thought they would have targeted you five years ago and just shut them down.

Well, look, they do a lot of things besides what we do. And I'll say, look, the founder of our company is a guy named Anthony Wood. And in the early 2000s he was saying all TV would be streamed long before it was cool to say all TV would be streamed. He's Thomas. If I'm P.T. barnum, he's Thomas Edison. And together we're really building. And you sort of pooh poohed it there. You know, we're building a really simple, delightful and value driven platform for television. And the notion is that we can build better television for everyone. There really is something about having the tools and the tech as well as the great content. You know, you have a lot of people who say, oh, it's all algorithm or it's all content. And, and the reason I came here is because the vision is to actually do both. And then you can serve the viewer and you can serve the content creator and you can serve the creators that I love and hopefully bring back scaled models where we can pay them again. I think actually two things we got to talk about before we run out of time for sure are advertising. Because everyone who said they wouldn't be in advertising is back. And we should talk about why.

We know why. Because the growth has slowed. They need additional revenue. They know that there's ads out there to be taken from linear tv. You guys have shown that there's a model in the fast model and this is a lever for growth.

Right? But think about what we need to do for advertising because that's the part we never talk about. So you can want the money from advertising, but we gotta talk about outcomes and performance advertising. You know, there's been a ton of talk and I was a big part of peak tv. I would argue that we are no longer in peak tv and if we're not, if you're listening, we should be in performance tv.

So what does that mean? Meaning delivering on eyeballs.

Yeah, look, if we want the advertiser to support all this great content, and we do, and I want to bring back models at scale that can help the creators that I love supporting. If we do that, and you want the advertisers to pay for it, which you just said is why they're here, then we need to perform for them. So search and social have taught the advertisers that advertising can be Accountable and drive to outcomes. And so you need the tech to prove that the outcomes for advertisers can work.

But doesn't everybody have the tech now? I mean, they all are delivering the audience and the data. Who doesn't do that now other than linear?

Well, so, so look, you do have the linear applications that just cannot do it. And then you have people who have data, but they don't have scale or they have data, but they don't have logged on relationships or integrations and tools that can help them. So, so you can't fake scale, you can't fake tech. And then you've got to work with the advertisers to prove performance and you got to want to do that. There are a lot of people who want to be paid by advertisers, but even wanting that doesn't mean that you actually know how to build their business. So look, I grew up before content. I grew up on the business side. And I always used to say, it's not called show show, it's called show business.

Yeah, I'm sure Matt Weiner and Vince Gilligan loved hearing that.

Well, no, no, but actually, great example. Vince Gilligan is one of my dear friends.

Yeah. Creator of Breaking Bad.

He and his team, I adore them and I can't do what they do. And I've tried to in my career support artists like that. But here's the deal. People like Vince Gilligan know how to write to the break. He learned it on X Files. And, and in his creative, he understood the value of leaving people hanging into the break. He didn't have disdain for it at all. And so he would understand that he's been financially successful because he's been commercially successful. And he's not precious about that. He does great art, but he also understands that it's a business.

Yeah, no, he's a great guy. So what you're saying essentially is that Linear was a hits driven business trying to aggregate as many eyeballs around a piece of content. Whereas the streaming platforms are less about the individual hits, more about the platform itself and delivering the value proposition for people who go there to experience everything through that one platform.

Yeah, and I think there was.

But isn't that also ultimately coming back to Hits? You got a whole platter of services. What's bringing people to Roku?

We have every TV show and movie out there in every sport. So what's bringing them back is a simple, delightful, high value experience. But what's also interesting, Matt, is, you know, during the SVOD boom and why it was unsustainable. And you would look at them coming back to multiple models, including advertising, is because their model didn't actually care whether you watched their shows. They just didn't want you to unsubscribe.

Right.

And when people got the pot of gold, people, these terrific creators and those who invest in creators, when they were all making money on investing in creative, it was because those shows that rose to the top were clearly valuable and valuable to the audiences, the advertisers and all the constituents I've mentioned. So what I love about an ad supported platform of scale like Roku is that we have the opportunity to create new windows. The baseball deal we did with MLB is interesting because we fancy ourselves the lead into all of television. I can explain that later.

Yeah, you guys took over the Sunday morning MLB package. So there's a game, a national game every Sunday morning.

Well, that's right. And it leads into all your Sunday sports during the season. So it's certainly thematically on brand for us and there are some great games. But what's interesting is we also have everyone else's games. They're just hard to find because of all the different packages and in our sports zone, which is a curated journey for all sports enthusiasts. And then there's an MLB zone where baseball obviously lives. It's not just the games, but we have access to stats and highlights and you can find your favorite team wherever they're airing. And we again, we're one click to the. We have our own games, then we have a fast channel and we rev share with mlb. And so as a baseball fan, personally, I feel like we're building baseball. It is a great baseball television experience.

The interesting thing for me is the mix of originals because very small percentage of your viewership is the originals. Correct.

Same as when I was at amc. Same as.

That's true. But we see these platforms, some of them like you look at the fast channels like Pluto tv, they're not doing originals. No. Then you look over at Tubi, they are doing originals, very targeted, niche originals you guys are. And then you have this big bucket of licensed content. What does the original actually do for you?

Well, I think it helps you super serve passionate fans of different genres.

So do you see it as like churn mitigation or do you see it as luring new audiences? Like what is, what is the value there?

Well, we can literally see as it brings in new viewers and how they're retained. But I look at it as just part of a media mix. You know, if you Go back to when I got to amc, it was called American Movie Classics. And I don't think anyone was sitting there thinking, you know, they're going to have more, you know, outstanding drama winners 15 years from now. And if you look at us as early days of curation, which is what AMC was, they curated films, then it became more modern films and then it became some originals and then it became really known for its originals still. The movies and the acquisitions were percentage wise, the larger amount of viewing, but the originals defined the brand. So I think it's slightly different. Heroku.

Yeah, that's been true on hbo, by the way, for years. Even in the heyday of the HBO dramas like the movies licensed from the studios were the big viewership draws. But the originals got all the press, got all the attention and brought in new people.

Well, well, the word new works, there's no doubt about that. But I look at it different Heroku and I said, look, we're never going to spend $20 billion on content and try to compete with the SVOD services, but for a number of good reasons. We have great licenses, we have great rev shares that again, create new windows for the libraries of the content creators, which is a real service on the way to the vision of sort of bringing back sustainable models to the creative community. But I look at it this way, Matt. So we're going to be responsible in our spending. We're going to target audiences that we know love, the food, home sports, et cetera, content that we love. And we're going to serve it in a context that is now 120/plus billion streaming hours. Plus we were the fastest growing member of the Nielsen gauge. Plus we're up 80% year over year on what we call the Roku Channel. And the gauge is just meant, is just measuring the Roku Channel. It's not even measuring the entire Roku experience. And I think we're in the early days of saying we can make what I call the streamer's journey from the on button to, to what they inevitably watch. That journey, programmed by Roku in a simple and delightful way, is a really powerful vision. And I think it's better television for everyone, including again the viewer. Of course, you got to take care of the viewer, but the advertiser and all of the content creators and creators, that's the model I'd like to bring back to Hollywood.

Does it annoy you when Tubi gets all this attention and they're not profitable?

Look, we have a lot of apps, they're a great partner of Ours, we have service, you know, Peacock and Pluto and you know, Apple tv, all of them. So what you sort of have to think of again I said before, is this was a pitch that existed here before I got here. But by definition the platform will be bigger than the pieces on it. We drive such a significant percentage of everyone's growth. And so this is hard to wrap your head around given the way we've spoken to AMC and Fox. But if I represent all of television and I can elevate the television you want. You might be surprised to know, but we drove more people to the Olympics and we created a custom journey from our home screen, which again is the top of the funnel. It's got homes with 120 million people every day going through there. And we sent more people to the Olympics on NBC and Peacock than anybody when they had the Wild Card game. The same thing. And even just promotionally, if you think about the platform as a marketing platform, when Encanto was a library title on Disney, that works a lot. They bought our home screen and searches for Encanto went up tenfold.

Yeah, you always hear about the power of Roku City and the ads, like, give me a ballpark, you don't have to tell me exactly what does an ad on the homepage cost?

Well, we don't break it out like that, but I mean, we just reported earnings, we reported our first billion dollar quarter growing the platform revenue side of the business over time.

But I imagine it's more expensive than other front pages of your rivals.

Yeah, well, it's, you know why? Again, back to the thesis. Because it performs, you know, the notion of outcomes driven television is really powerful. If you believe that ads are supposed to pay for all this great content. And again, bring back a model to Vince Gilligan that will allow him to create the genius that he creates, that is the inspiration to bring together the algorithm and the content. It's definitely an end. This is the notion of performance tv and having it driven by advertising is sort of what is unmentioned when people say, oh, everyone's going ad supported. Really, they should go ad supported and prove that they work and then the ad support will continue.

Yeah. Do you look at the landscape and think this is working for them, this isn't working for them. Like, who's it working for? Seems to be working for Amazon.

Well, look, I think if you look back at the phone is a perfect example. Lots of operating systems and when it all came down to it, there was iOS and Android. Right. I, I had a Windows Phone. It was awesome, but it was unsustainable. And so it came down from a lot of operating systems to two iOS and Android. And if I had to bet, I think there'll be three operating systems in television and it's likely to be Amazon, Google and Roku. No, Apple, you know, they're the companies I always hear you and Lucas talk about Apple can do whatever it wants, right?

Well, no, but I also said that it was a big deal that they're putting Apple TV on the Amazon channel store because that's an admission that they need them.

It's a good example of what I'm talking about. So I look at it, I go, look, Zach, Jamie and all the talented people over there are making great television. And when they wanted to announce the new season of the morning show, they bought our home screen because they understand the power of it. And so I love it because A, I'm a fan of the show and a lot of the talent there, and then B, I get to elevate that like it's my own. I mean, the pride with which we support these events is awesome because we get to root for television. And that to me, especially in an era of fragmentation, has made the job really, really interesting and makes the potential of bringing back these models that scale and almost provide a new syndication market. And we are nowhere near there yet. But that's the vision is how do you make this sustainable at scale? It's going to take a platform like Roku to do it.

I want to talk a little bit about Roku Channel because it is a competitor in the fast space and you have originals, but the originals are not the driver there. It seems like the licensed content is the vast majority of your viewership. What performs on Roku Channel. Give us some examples of things that might be surprising that are big drivers of viewership on Roku Channel.

So you won't be surprised that if we're about half the broadband households in the country what perform country first performs on Roku. Right, because we, we represent such people.

Right, but. But most of your content on Roku Channel is non exclusive, correct?

That's right. Yeah. Well, so we have our originals, obviously that have exclusive Windows and, and. But we don't need to be precious. What's so funny is you have the scale.

You don't need it.

Well, we have scale, but we also, you know, maybe we should explain to your viewers the power of Windows, right? I mean, what's made the TV industry so successful over time was that it had all sorts of monetization.

Windows Right, We've talked about that on the show. The waterfall and different windowing.

Right. Including international and including syndication. And so many of them have disappeared behind the paywall that the libraries didn't pay out the same kind of money post paywall that they free.

So you can say Netflix, it's okay.

I know. By the way, I love that on.

The Roku channel you have a category just called not on Netflix.

Well, by the way, you know, so funny. I appreciate you watching. You know what's interesting is I think it's a service to the viewer. We obviously have a ton of people who watch Netflix on Roku and they're partner of ours that we're proud of. But when we're, when we're curating the Roku channel, that's a really important designation.

They got me to look, I started scrolling, I'm like, oh, that's on. That's not on Netflix. That's not on Netflix. Interesting terrifier. That's not on Netflix.

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The truth of the matter is that for us, an ad supported model, it made sense to report households. When they went public in 17. I wasn't here. It literally had 15 million households and now we're 85. And they said we're going to give you a Milestone update at 100. So we're growing still. And what happens though? The growth by definition is going to be more international than domestic. And guess what that means that Means your ARPU is going to come down.

And so revenue per user.

Yeah. And so we're growing arpu in the U.S. but you mix in Mexico, where we're number one. And Arpu doesn't even look like it's the same business. So you have to stop doing that. Otherwise it doesn't reflect the metrics.

Yeah, it's. It's the ad business. It doesn't matter how many people are available to watch. It matters who's watching and how much they're watching.

Well, it's so funny. So I have my reviews in front of me, right? These are reviews of employees that I'm writing. And it says KPM's at the top. Streaming hours, platform revenue adjusted, EBITDA, free cash flow. And that's if you're an investor. What you want to hear is, I am so bummed. Look, it's such a different business at 15 million than it is at 85, than it is at 100. But by definition, you have to focus on the four things I just read you because if you don't, you're reporting declining metrics when you're growing, and it's just phantom.

Yeah, the. No, no, I, I was looking. Sorry, I was, I was looking at what I wanted my final question to be, and I saw a note that I made for myself and I. And it was give me your impression of how the Murdoch family feud will play out, but I doubt you're going to answer that one.

I will say this. Lachlan was one of the best bosses I've ever had.

Lachlan's a very nice guy. I've dealt with him many times and I know he gets a lot of shit for the things he says on earnings call about Fox News, but he's actually, I found him to be a pretty nice guy.

You know, I sat on what I believe to be one of the greatest lots in Hollywood history right there, you know, the Fox. And we talked entertainment and he was serious and we made a bunch of acquisitions and he was decisive. And so I have nothing but good to say about my team there and the experience there. What they didn't have was, was what all the, the tech and the tools and all that we're talking about, which is what made me curious about solving some of the problems I couldn't while I was running Fox Entertainment.

Yeah, I mean, what do you think their streaming strategy ultimately is? They seem pretty hot on Tubi, but like, Fox Nation is not lighting the world on fire.

No, I think their greatest streaming strategy was not throwing $20 billion a year at a.

Me too. Yeah, but they're never going to be a global player in the streaming business, whereas some of these other companies maybe at least have a chance.

Well, I never say never because they're always watching the world and looking at opportunities to grow. But to me that was uber strategic, not wasting all that money. And I think they've been rewarded for that. I also think that they have some incredible sports assets that as we know, drive leverage in streaming.

Do you think Fox Sports will be on the ESPN flagship, everything over the top app?

Better question for Jimmy, you know, because I don't know.

I think so. I had an analyst, Stephen Cahill on the show and he floated that. I think that's a smart move for Fox because ultimately, especially when these NFL opt outs come, they need to show that the Sunday NFL games will have some kind of a presence in digital.

Yeah, well, Shanks and the Fox team do a great job with the NFL. Actually, you know, speaking of NFL, one of the things that made me look at the platform was if I cared about a show, if we created a new show and it was the premiere to launch it, if I really cared, the way you could tell is that I put it behind the NFL, you'd put it behind the NFC championship game or the Super Bowl. That's what those are. Those are lead inside to original programming and that's how everyone uses them. And that's why, among other reasons, they're so valuable. But in a world where there's no show in broadcast anymore that does above or even close really to a 1 rating consistently on the demo, the lead ins are gone except the Super Bowl.

CBS launched Tracker after the super bowl and it became the biggest show of the year.

No, that's my point. And one of the reasons the NFL is so darn valuable is because of its lead in capabilities. So I looked at the platforms that were driving so many of the impressions of the things we operated as. I was at a linear service and I thought, oh my goodness, they're the new lead into television. And so a lot of our strategy has been to say if we have super bowl sized audiences and we do coming into our home screen every day and we can take those audiences and do that. I've all I've talked about to address both fragmentation being the guide to television and then performing for the advertisers because we have the logged on relationships and the tools, we, we can be the lead into not just our own television, but to everybody's and bring scale back to the industry.

All right, Charlie Collier, thanks for coming on the show.

Fun to be here.

We are back with the call sheet. Craig, I had a perfectly good prediction lined up for today's episode. And I said, let's do it. And then you said, no, no, no, no, no. I'd rather talk about People magazine's Sexiest Man Alive.

I don't think a lot of people know how this works, including myself. And I wanted to ask you that.

John Krasinski is just the Sexiest Man Alive. What's there to understand?

A ton of things, I think.

Friend of the town John Krasinski.

You're right. You were not among the voting body.

I was not. Nor was Lucas Shaw, who sold stock and him at our live show a couple months ago.

Can you just generally tell me, you used to run the Hollywood Reporter. How does this stuff work? Who decides? How does he get chosen? Do people nominate themselves? How does it work?

It's so funny. People on the Internet were like, oh, he paid off. You know, Dumois had this thing. He paid off the people at People to put him on the COVID No, no, no. That's not how it works. This is a booking. The biggest challenge for Sexiest Man Alive is finding someone who is willing to do it.

What do you mean? Who would want to be Sexiest Man Alive?

Because it's silly and it's reductive, and it's gotta work within your PR cycle. Like, you can't be too big, and you can't be wanting to, you know, to be taken seriously. Cause that'll bring you down a little. And you can't have nothing to promote because then it's like, why are you doing it? It seems thirsty. So it's a whole PR strategy. It used to be something a little bit bigger, but now with the digital discourse and the way people treat these covers, you have to be very careful about doing something like this. And it's gotta be something that is additive to your image. I mean, and it's also gotta not conflict. People are like, oh, why wasn't Glen Powell on the Sexiest Man Alive? He's on the Vanity Fair Hollywood cover, which just came out this week. So you can't conflict and do both.

Why did VF Change when they released that cover? Because that was originally in February. Now it's November. Why did they switch that?

Oh, that's a whole business story. I mean, Vanity Fair is hurting. And their commercial, their consumer advertising business is way down. So they wanted to put it before the end of the year, before the holidays. So they could capture more consumer advertising. And at the same time, they are now trying to position themselves as more of an insider publication for Hollywood. So they want advertising from the studios for their awards campaigns. When the Hollywood issue normally comes out in February or early March, the campaigns are all over. So they can't get the awards campaign money, and they want that.

So basically you're just saying it's kind of cheesy and uncool now to be the Sexiest Man.

Oh, yeah. Like, Krasinski is a perfect choice because outside of Jack Ryan, he hasn't really made it happen as a movie star. So he's trying to beef up his bona fides in that category. Plus, he's gotten a bunch of bad press. I mean, we've done stuff about him, his reputation in Hollywood, he's kind of a jerk. And his reputation on the set, you.

Continue to double down on this. You don't hide from it at all.

It's widely known. I mean, the guy burned through showrunners on Jack Ryan. Studio people that have worked with him said he's extremely, extremely difficult. His reputation is not great within the industry. Not that Sexiest Man Alive changes that, but his currency is people think he's Jim from the Office and he's lovable and cute and he's now, you know, bulked up and he's an action star. So that's why you do Sexiest Man Alive for the PR hit. All right, that's the show for today. I want to thank my guest, Charlie Collier, producer Craig Horlbeck, our editor Jesse Lopez, our patron saint, John Krasinski. And I want to thank you. We'll see you next week.