How Justin Ellen Went From Camera-Shy to 3 Million Social Media Followers

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Hey there, this is Emily from the Food Blogger Pro team, and you are listening to the Food Blogger Pro podcast. This week on the podcast, Burak is interviewing Justin Allen from Everything Just Baked. Justin started decorating and selling cakes in high school with the dream of one day opening his own bakery. At the encouragement of his sister, he hesitantly started posting photos of his cakes on Instagram. But didn't like being in front of the camera. Once he got serious about growing his presence on social media, he realized he needed to put a face to his brand, and he slowly but surely overcame his fear of being on camera. Now he has 1.4 million followers on both Facebook and TikTok, and over 800,000 followers on Instagram. In this interview, Justin shares how he transitioned from selling cakes to building a business as a content creator online, what his first few brand deals looked like. why he decided to launch his website last year and dives into the process of self-publishing his first cookbook, which is out this month. Justin is humble and scrappy and smart and full of lots of good wisdom for content creators at every level. And we really hope you will enjoy this interview as much as we did. Without further ado, I'm just gonna let Bjork take it away.

Welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. I've been watching this, so it's like, it's almost an honor.

You know, you, you, you, you get it. It's one of the great joys that I have is talking with creators who are familiar with the podcast, you know, have experienced, you know, watching an episode, learning from it, learning from the guests. But the joy is then to be able to see people or have conversations with people on the podcast who then have figured it out. Like you have built a really incredible following. You have, uh, you're, you have a cookbook coming out, which we're going to talk about, a self-published cookbook, which is really incredible. Um, but you've been in the trenches. You are a content creator. It's not just a theory. It's not just something that you've aspired to. You are officially doing it. You started when you were really young. When you first started out, take us back to that. Did you know this is what I want to do? I know a lot of people who are teens would think like, hey, they talk about that idea of like, when I was growing up, kids would be like, I want to be a professional athlete. And now kids are like, I want to be a YouTuber. That's the shift that's changed over a couple of decades. Was that you when you were younger? Did you want to be a content creator?

Oh no, I hated the camera. I did not have a personal Instagram. I didn't like taking selfies, videos. If there was a camera, I was running. That was not the case. Honestly, I always say it happened accidentally. During high school, I got into cake decorating. I was watching YouTube videos. I was like, I wanna try this out. Not filming, just process of making cake.

Yeah.

And my sisters, they're like, they forced me. They're like, post your cakes on Instagram 'cause you'll get orders and stuff. And I was like, no, no, no, I don't like that. And one day I was just like, I don't know what happened. I just was like, okay, I'll post the cakes. You never saw me. It was just my cake.

And videos at this point, or was it photos?

No, I don't even think reels were a thing really yet. Sure.

This would've been like 2018, 2019?

Yeah, around that time. Okay. And I was just posting photos of my work and I had, I got in like a good business in during high school. Like I would literally skip Friday to fulfill cake orders. And mostly it was word of mouth and through Instagram. And then one day I was like, I want more followers. And I was like, why does this person have more followers? What are they doing? And I realized they're showing themselves. So I was like, oh, like I actually have to be seen on this, like Instagram, this camera. And again, I was afraid. I did not like the camera, but I always was like, the idea of it was, am I gonna let this camera stop me from like what I want? And like at the time where I wanted was followers and I was like, press record.

Yeah. It's the, it's one of the things that I noticed immediately when you kind of look across your different platforms is like, You are front and center on those. It's one of the recurring themes that we have on the podcast. Now we talk about this all the time, which is like the importance of showcasing your humanity, your personality. What is your theory around why that is? Like, can you distill that down into why that resulted? You know, if we look at your follower accounts, you have 1.4 million on, I think these are up to date, 1.4 million on Facebook, 1.4 million on TikTok. Over 800,000 on Instagram, over 400,000 on YouTube. Would you attribute a lot of that to that point where you decided, I need to show myself? And if you hadn't made that decision, my guess is those numbers probably would've been not what they are today.

Oh, 100%. I think people wanna see the person behind the account. Like originally when I started this, I was starting it as a cake business. Like I wasn't dream— like my, the goal wasn't being a content creator. I didn't even know that was a business. I didn't even know that was a thing. I didn't know there was money in it. Um, and I was like, how do I get more orders? Um, and I just realized like everyone's showing themselves. So if that's what people are doing, that means it's working. Like, you know, if the successful people are doing it, that's what's working. So I was like, I gotta do it. And immediately everything just changed. Like I got in more opportunities, I grew a following, more orders, um, brand deals. You just create that like relationship, like you said, and It really, it goes long. Like even with the cookbook today, still the followers who followed me 5 years ago, um, they're still with me and they're able to see like that growth that I went through. And you can't get that same relationship if you're just, you're never showing yourself or speaking to camera. Just not, you have to engage.

So you, you originally had a business, you were baking cakes, decorating those, skipping Friday in order to deliver on those orders and the function of your social accounts was to drive awareness around that locally. So if people had an event coming up, you'd bake that cake, you'd decorate it. So you had this kind of boutique industry shop where you were doing cake decorating. The original thought was, I'm going to use social to drive awareness around that. And then you were like, wait, I want to get more followers. How do I do that? Okay, let's look at the people who have a lot of followers. What are some of the things that I can look at and analyze and say, this is different than me? One of the things you distinguish is they are showing up their personality. They're putting themselves on camera. At that point, did it shift for you to say like, and now I want to build a creator-based business? Or was the purpose of it still like, hey, I have this business, my business is selling cake. Um, or did you start to see the opportunities in doing brand partnerships and building a business that is creating content?

No, great question. I wouldn't say consecration still was the goal. I just, I was a young kid. I still wanted followers. I was like, I want that number. I want a lot of followers, you know? And at the time, Kempstone High School, I wanted to be, I wanted to open a bakery 'cause I thought if you're a baker, you have to open a bakery. Like that's the only option. It wasn't until that I realized consecration could be a real job was when I got on TV.

Mm-hmm.

I was on Netflix Is It Cake season 1. And when that aired, my following like skyrocketed. People started recognizing me, but I also started getting brand deals. Like one of the early ones that was a big one was like Lush, for instance, Lush Cosmetics. I made a bath bomb. I forget what year it was their birthday, but I made like a whole video, whole little campaign of it, and it paid me. I was like, oh, I didn't realize there was money. And then I also started talking and meeting other creators who had large followings. And like, I realized like, this is what they're doing full time. And it just allowed me to see like, that is a possibility. You don't have to open up a bakery. And I was so close to opening up a bakery. I like bought ovens, I bought packaging, I just stored it in the storage unit. And I was like, okay, let's take a pause on that. It was also during COVID time too. So I was like, that's a little risky, you know, retail store. Um, but I was like, let's take a pause on that and let's see what I could do with these videos. And I'm so glad I did.

Yeah, totally. What did, what did that look like then? What did the launch, once you had this idea, Hey, maybe I'm going to put this bakery on hold. I can turn this creator business into something. Sometimes all it takes is that one deal where you're like, wow, this brand paid me to create content. What if I did this once a month?

Okay.

Suddenly you have like a very good income, especially when you're, I don't know, however old you were at the time, 18, 19, like. Making more than probably any of your friends would've been. Is that what happened where you started to see the potential there? And then was your first path forward pursuing brand deals? Because we're gonna talk about in a little bit the website that you launched within the last year.

Mm-hmm.

But as you stepped into the creator business mindset, did it, did you really go deep on brand partnerships? How do I grow my following? And then how do I find brands who I can work with that will pay me? As my following increases, as my engagement increases.

Mm-hmm. I would say it wasn't like as quick or as clear as like it may seem. Um, it was definitely like a slow but fast process. It felt slow to me and I was still like selling cakes. Like I stopped selling cake like maybe a year or 2 ago, so I just like recently still like stopped taking orders.

Was that hard to stop or was that a relief?

Honestly, a relief. Cakes, if you've done it, it's a lot of work when you're taking like 10+ orders a week. It takes a lot of you. Um, and it just was a lot. So it was a relief. Um, but I wouldn't say like the brand deals, like it didn't happen like one day I reached 100K followers and I was getting brand deals every day. Like it was not like that at all. I was just constantly, I feel like I'm very good at looking at myself objectively, like my work, my content, my social media, my business, and saying like, what's not working and Let's see the successful people, compare them. Uh, I'm not saying like copy their work or anything, but see what they're doing and what's working. And that's it.

And now it could be a different industry. It might not even be food.

Yeah, it's not always baking related. Um, but see where it's working. And then I would always just do like that analysis of myself and be like, okay, well let's try this and see what happens. Um, so I would say like I started off trying to get cake orders, then I kind of had a time where I was teaching more and trying to do cake decorating classes and like ebooks and things in that nature. And then I kind of got tired of making cakes, honestly. And I was like, okay, I kind of wanna tap into more recipes. And I realized like a lot of people don't bake from scratch or they're intimidated by it. And I didn't have that growing up. Like my grandma's crazy. She makes everything from scratch. And I realized not everyone had that same experience. So I started posting recipes.

Mm-hmm.

And that led more to where we are today, the blog. Um, but I just, I don't want to make it seem like it was like a, I went from selling cakes and then one day brand deals left and right every day. It was not like that at all. I was still selling, like cakes were still my main income for a long time.

Yeah. It's one of the things we often hear in talking with people who have built a creator business, which is you have something that is the foundational kind of base layer income that allows you to have the flexibility to be a creator. And for some people it might be a part-time job, it might be freelance. For a lot of people it might be something like almost services-based or agency-type work where for me it was, I worked at a nonprofit, not related to anything that we're doing now in terms of content. It was partnered with schools, But what I was doing was a lot of the web work for them. And I was like maintaining the server, you know, that where they stored all their stuff and like a lot of the similar things to what I eventually did within the context of PinterVM, I was doing within this nonprofit. And that stuff carried over. And, but it was this slow transition. It was like 30% of my time was on the business and 70% of my time was our full-time gig. This was before we had other commitments. We were able to do it like weekends. Early mornings, nights, you know, and then it's 60/40, 50/50, and then it flips 80/20 the other way. And so it was a very slow transition for us over multiple years. It sounds like similar for you. Biggest difference is that it, you were also entrepreneurial in that thing that was providing kind of the base layer income. It's just that it was like a services-based business as opposed to a creator-based business. So you kind of cool because it, there's a little bit of a crossover there, like. The thing that was the base income for you also was the product that you talked about within your world of content, which I think a benefit if you're able to document what you're doing within the context of kind of your services-based business, which is really cool to hear. That's exactly right.

Yeah. I was just recording my work, like I was doing my cake decorating for the orders, delivering orders, and people were just interested. So not only gave me a following, but also gave me more orders. Um, it's exactly what you're saying.

It's such a good point because I think sometimes people think about, okay, I need to block off my day and do my like content creation. And then I got to do all my other work, you know, outside of that. But I think to the degree that we can figure out a way to kind of be light on our feet and actually document the thing that we are doing and then publish it, that can be extremely beneficial. It's not exactly the same, but I feel like these podcasts, are a version of that for me because I get to sit on a call with somebody like yourself and I get to learn. I get to ask questions. It's like interesting for us. And I think if not for this podcast, I'd want to be doing this during the day, which is like learning from really smart people. But the benefit is like, I get to press the record button before and then we publish it and then we, you know, work with sponsors who sponsor the podcast. And so it's a great point for anybody listening to think strategically around Are there things that you could be doing in your normal life that you document and then publish if you're interested in being a content creator? So, uh, you, uh, wrap up, you, was it, was it ceremonial, like the last cake delivery that you had, or was it kind of like, I finally get to deliver this and now I get to be done?

No, you know, it's kind of also like a slow, gradual, like I would slowly, my content kind of shifted because at some point I like, I didn't really want to get as many cake orders as much. So I kind of shifted how I was presenting my content. Like I wasn't making, I was starting to make more like content cakes, which is what I call them. So it was just like whatever cake I want. Like I wasn't kind of displaying it as this is for order and I kind of continued doing that more. So like my orders didn't come in as much. So it kind of happened slowly and like the only cakes I was fulfilling were honestly like repeats, um, my old clients. Sure.

Um, somebody you did, had did for their birthday party last year, their birthday party's coming up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. It's like you, the, It was less of a business decision and more of like a relational decision.

Yeah.

Like you don't wanna say no to this person.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. But, um, I was glad, like, like now I don't even have it on my website, so like no one knows, like it, you can't really get it. Um, contact me in regards for the cake. I'm glad that like, that was a fun time, but I'm glad that I'm in a new era.

Yeah. And it served you well. Like it was the launch for what you're doing. So what does that, what does it look like now for you? So you have this You know, multiple millions of followers on social. You launched your website last year. Um, you have the cookbook. What, what does the business look like functionally right now? And how do you think of yourself as a content creator? Um, when people, you know, when people ask what you do, how do you describe it? And then like behind the scenes, what does that look like in terms of the most important areas for you within your business?

Uh, first I wanna say it might look like I got it all figured out.

I do not.

I, I'm a mess. It's not all perfect over here. Honestly, I'm just going day by day. Um, but I will say, um, so I decided like slowly I decided to start sharing more recipe content and at this like time I was like, I don't like how I'm relying on a brand deal. I wasn't taking cakes anymore, so that was like my main income and I lost it. Um, so now I was like, brand deals was kind of becoming my main income. I was like, I don't like that I'm relying on Something I can't control. Like, I can't control how many people are gonna email me in a month. I, it, you know, it's out of our reach. So I was again looking at what other people are doing. I was like, why does everyone have a blog? So I was like heavily, heavily researching like blogs, like how, what's, I didn't know there was a whole business on blogging. I thought it was like, you know, outdated thing. No one told me there was money in a blog. I wish someone did. I wish I saw it like 10 years ago. Uh, but honestly, I saw it and I was like, well, that's what I need to do. 'Cause then it gives me a purpose. For what I'm posting in my content. Like now if I'm sharing a recipe, I can put it on my blog and now I'm at least making money this way. Um, I don't have to only rely on brand deals. Um, cuz you never wanna like have one bucket that's all your income and you're, again, it could end and then you're gonna be struggling and stuff. Um, so that was kind of the idea behind the blog and it's still new and I'm still like, I don't know why I'm doing it. I, I wanna really say I don't know why I'm doing it. I'm just, the biggest thing with me is I'm always willing to try something and just like work at it. Yeah. Like worst comes to worst, you learn as you go. And that's been the case from the beginning.

2 things that I think are important within that. We talked about this idea of ready, fire, aim, as opposed to ready, aim, fire. And I think if you get stuck in ready, aim, fire, a lot of what we hear people do is like, they aim, you're aiming and you're like, I got to line this up perfectly. I need to make sure exactly where it is, as opposed to if you like ready, fire, aim, you're like, oh, I missed way to the left. Like now I know where I need to adjust. And the analogy is like, we will learn quicker, the quicker that we publish something, the quicker that we get feedback, the more that we compress the feedback loop around what we're doing. And I think that's super important, that takeaway, like get into it. It's going to be messy. It's okay if you don't know what you're doing. But get after it, like press publish, uh, try the thing. And then the second piece that I think is really important is kind of this philosophy, maybe this mindset, which it seems like what you're alluding to a little bit, which is like, if somebody else can do it, there's probably something that I can learn from them in terms of what they did, how they did it. You're not going to replicate it and do the exact same thing, but you are going to look at it and say like, oh, I see this person is like showing up on camera quite a bit. And the other thing that they're doing is they're, who knows, like leading with a really strong hook on a video within the first 3 seconds. Okay. Maybe I need to like adjust that a little bit. And you are simultaneously compressing the frequency of your publishing while also learning from other people who are where you want to be. And I think those 2 things paired together. Can be a really successful playbook for somebody who's looking to build a creator business. Do you have an example of what that looked like for you? Like on a certain platform, learning a certain thing that worked well, implementing it, and then seeing the benefit of it and knowing it's all incremental. It's not like some huge breakthrough, but if you have 1,000 little incremental breakthroughs, it's going to compound. Do you have some examples of maybe what those little compounding moments looked like for you?

Yeah, and that's 100% my playbook, honestly. One, for instance, is my original site was on Squarespace, and that's where I like had a blog. It was ugly, but I was like, again, I'm looking at my blog and other blogs. I would like just Google chocolate chip cookies. Whoever comes up, that's what I'm going on. I'm like, okay, their blog's on WordPress or whatever platform, typically WordPress. I was like, why is every blog on WordPress? Now I gotta let— mine's on Squarespace. I must be doing something wrong. So I'm researching, okay, why is everyone on WordPress? Oh, it's easier for ads, or, oh, it's easier to customize. And now I'm like, I gotta make this shift. And it happened pretty quickly as soon as I learned that, um, which is where we are today. Um, in a content standpoint, um, kind of like what you said in my videos, I'm always looking, 'cause I was doing now a new content style 'cause I was sharing recipes. I'm not sharing cake decorating anymore. So I was like, okay, we're trying something new. We might flop a little bit, but let's see what people are doing. How do they address a cookie video? And typically people do a nice shot of that gooey chocolate chip pull or something. And I was like, okay, well, that's what's working. This is basically data. You're basically researching what's working. And if it's working for this person, it's gotta work for you. Obviously add your creative twist, add your personality to it, but the basis of it is the secret formula.

Mm-hmm.

Like, honestly.

Yeah, it is one of those things where on a platform you're able to look at it and you're able to get a sense for this. There's something here and this something worked. And there are probably multiple, there are for sure multiple things that you could point to. One is the actual creator themselves. Like, I think there is something undeniable about charisma, about personality. I think you are somebody who has Charisma and personality. And you, there's kind of like, it's hard to quantify, but it's like a little bit of like, Lindsay and I often talk about this idea. You have this like magic dust and it's like, what is it? Nobody knows, but you do know your friends who like go to a party and they're charismatic. That doesn't mean you have to be that, but I do think that there's something around being a personality online that's entertaining and engaging. And there are probably components of that that you could break out and say like, okay, why is that? What is that? So there's that, but then there's also the formula and the formula shifts and changes what works. There's a reason that something works and that when you can combine those and understand like, okay, there's a structure that you could potentially follow that works well in the way that content is assembled and put together. And you have a personality that's engaging and interesting and draws people in. And then you consistently post and you have this like rhythm around it. All of those things can add up. And it seems like that's been true for you where you've been able to figure out, okay, how do I put the pieces together for all of these respective platforms to figure out what works well? Do you have one that you feel like you understand the best out of all of them when you look at the different platforms?

Oh, I feel like it changes every 6 months.

What is it right now, if you had to say?

Right now, I feel like Facebook, uh, and I feel like people overlook Facebook.

Yeah.

Because if you're not posting on Facebook, you need to be posting on Facebook like 2 days ago.

Why do you say that?

They're the best conversion, depending on like also what your goal is. Like, for instance, mine is like baking and stuff. Um, I feel like it attracts a little bit more middle-aged, older audience, and Facebook is that. And for instance, my cookbook. Most of the sales came from Facebook. That's what converted the most. Um, and I feel like they just, even for the blog, it's a little bit more accessible with the link. People are able to click easier. I just find, I'm thinking it's just because it's an older audience, you know, they, they're okay with things slower. They're, they're gonna watch things more. Um, it's not as fast-paced. There's not as much competition cuz not everyone's on Facebook. People think it's dead. Um, but I feel like I kind of understand that platform the best. Um, and it's one of my biggest ones actually.

Yeah, I know you've talked about your site. We'll talk more about it in a little bit, but, um, you know, as we do our pre-question inventory, you said the site's made, you know, $20,000 to $25,000 within the last few months. Huge number, especially for a site that has just recently launched, like, you know, a year old essentially. So congratulations on that.

Facebook.

Yeah, I was gonna say one of the things that I think is important to point out within that is we have a lot of conversations with creators around this idea of search and SEO and Just on the Food Blogger Pro forums, you know, within the last week, somebody was like, hey, I'm kind of— there's— we've been publishing content online for 16 years. And like, since we've started, the question has always been like, is this industry dead? Like, we've had some version of that conversation for 16 years. Right now, the version of that conversation is search traffic is declining. Like, it's really competitive. The landscape is super competitive. How am I going to get traffic if I can't get it from Google? What we come back to often is this idea that like Google is just like a discovery mechanism. It's a place for your content to get discovered. What we need to do as content creators is think about where is our content being discovered? And then once it is discovered, what are people doing with that? Like, how are we, if the goal is to do it as a business, how are we creating income from it or capturing value from it? And Facebook is unique in that you are able to drive traffic. to your website, but then also create income from Facebook itself. So can you talk a little bit about how you view Facebook as a traffic driver, you know, how you're making thousands of dollars as a traffic driver, and then maybe speak to the monetization program as well?

Even looking through like the analytics, for instance, most of my traffic is not from Google, especially because I'm such a new site, like SEO, it all takes time. So I was in a fortunate position where I did have a following. I was like, I'm gonna utilize it to My potential. Um, so I would post all my videos, uh, like every blog post I have, there's a video with it. And that video's to promote the blog post, obviously. Um, I would just post that on Facebook, engage with people, see how it's performing. Again, like I'm very much like seeing how it's performing. Is this a good hook? Are people not watching anymore? Maybe we need to fine-tune it. I'm a big believer on, you could take the same video and repost it a couple times, like just change the intro.

Yeah.

See which one performs better. Now for the next recipe, try that out.

Are you remixing the video itself or like the caption? Uh, what does that look like?

Yeah.

And how far between?

Yeah, so I don't delete anything, even if the post is flopping, which again, even like me, I'm big, it still flops. It still makes me sad. It's a part of the game. You kind of gotta get used to it. I don't delete. I just, so basically my younger sister, younger sister, she actually is my editor. Uh, she works hand in hand with me. Um, and we will take Let's say if it's a brownie recipe, I'll take the same recipe and same video basically of the process, but chop it up in a different way. So the intro's a little different. So maybe instead of the break shot, it's a, I don't know, it's just a shot of me saying, let's make brownies. So I have like 3 different versions. They're very similar. Maybe one's a little bit shorter, maybe one's a little bit longer. And again, this is just trial. It also helps stretch out your content and—

Meaning like you get more use out of a single shoot.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So now you don't have to like, Oh, I don't have anything to post today. Well, you could repost your brownie video 'cause you own— you posted it like a month ago. They forgot about it. Like, it's okay. It's a month ago. Um, and then people who have seen it, they're gonna be like, oh, maybe I want brownies today. It's like almost a reminder.

Yeah.

Um, and someone actually told me this and I was like, oh, genius. Uh, Jessica Seacrest, she was like, think of it like a TV show. Like when you're on scrolling on cable, the reruns are on, like Friends is playing 24/7. So think of your content the same way. Like you can repost it. People are still gonna watch it. People still watch Friends, The Office, like people are still gonna watch it. And it's still valuable and there's still people did not see your video. Like as much as it's hard to believe, like there's still people who have never seen that brownie video, even if it went viral. So I'm a big believer in reposting the content. And again, it's promoting your blog, assuming you do recipes, but it's promoting the blog post.

Do you, do you have a window that you try and operate within where it's like, hey, I'm, if it was posted a week ago, 2 weeks ago, I'm not gonna post it again. What space in between a video are you waiting till you post it again?

I would say it depends on how often I'm posting. I've been quite busy now, so I haven't been posting as much. So if I haven't been posting a lot, then I won't repost as much because then it would appear as like more duplicate. But I would say like a month and then repost again, especially if it's fitting, if it performed well, or even if it underperformed, because again, you just gotta like, I, I feel like once you understand how to create video, you have good lighting, you have some personality in it, it looks good, like everything is there. Sometimes just the algorithm didn't like it. Like it's not you always, sometimes it's just Facebook, Instagram, whatever. Um, so I feel like just doing those little twists and trying again is really helpful. And again, it just helps stretch out your content because you're gonna be making a lot of content and some days you're gonna be busy. Maybe you're going on vacation.

Yeah.

Just repost the video.

That's great. So are you, uh, doing multiple, or your sister, is she doing multiple edits of every video? Like you always say, hey, we're gonna do a shoot, we're gonna create this recipe. It's a brownie recipe. At the base minimum, we're gonna try and get like 3 versions that we are gonna post. Mm-hmm.

Uh, yes, I would say most times. Um, and I'm very like particular on these videos. Like she edits them and then like we sit next to each other and like watch this video 20 more times to make sure it's perfect. So she usually gives me like 3 different intro options and then I'm gonna see which one I prefer. And that's usually the one that I post first. Then I see how it performs. If it flops, I was like, oh, I made a bad choice. Why did it flop? Okay, let's try this one instead. Um, and try that. And again, this is just more data. The more data and research, the more you post, the more you're gonna understand what your audience likes, what's the algorithm liking. Um, it's just gonna take you farther.

Yeah.

You just can't like let the numbers get to you. It gets, and I'm saying this like it still bothers me, but you just have to keep pursuing. Like, I'm not someone who will like, like if the video gets 5 views, let's say it didn't perform well, right? Um, I'm gonna be upset, but I'm not gonna be upset to the point where I'm not gonna do it again. So you have to really make sure you're just consistent and like gonna keep going at it.

Yeah, it's, um, I've, I've heard, I heard this, uh, comment from somebody. I'm trying to remember who it was, but it was really impactful for me as I thought about Oh, Seth Godin. Seth Godin was being interviewed on the podcast, Diary of a CEO. I don't know if you know Stephen Bartlett, but he's incredible and does these great interviews. He was interviewing Seth. And one of the things that Seth talked about was that feedback, and this was in the context of a negative comment, but I also think it could be within the context of like views. But he was talking about it within the context of negative comments. People might say you write a book and there's a negative comment on it. That what that's telling you isn't necessarily that what you produce was bad. What that's telling you is that this person wasn't a fit for the thing that you produced. And that little shift was super helpful for me to think about and even to frame up conversations that I'm having with creators, which is like, it doesn't mean that you are bad as a creator. It means that you are creating a thing for a certain person. And when that person who you created it for finds it, it's going to be a really incredible thing. And there's going to be people because we're publishing things on the internet who will come across the thing, think it's for them, but it's not. And they might have a negative interaction with it, or you might not get a lot of views on it, whatever it might be. That doesn't mean it's inherently bad. It just means that there's not a good match. And so I think your mindset around like, this is kind of data, this is information. This isn't like directly focused at you. It's easier said than done. Um, it's really helpful reminder for us as creators as we're publishing content on the internet. Before we continue, let's take a moment to hear from our sponsors. Building a creator business isn't getting any easier. Between AI, constant platform changes, and the pressure to keep growing, it can feel like you're running just to keep up. That's why we're excited to partner with Raptive. Raptive works with thousands of the web's leading independent creators, including to help them earn more, grow smarter, and build sustainable businesses for the long term. They combine industry-leading advertising with personalized guidance, data-driven insights, and a team that's constantly helping creators adapt to changes in search, AI, and the broader digital landscape. They're also leading the charge to protect creator content and advocate for a future where independent creators can continue to thrive. And now it's easier than ever to join. If your site gets at least 25,000 monthly page views, you can apply to become part of the Raptive creator community. And get support that's designed to grow with your business. To learn more or apply, visit raptive.com/fbp. Thanks again to Raptive for sponsoring this episode. Um, tell me about one of the things I've been trying to figure out. I would be interested if you have thoughts on this. Uh, Meta has these programs, Meta One, Meta Verified, where you can sign up. We signed up for Meta. This was like last week, a Meta One, uh, Meta One account for our Facebook account. Like just today, you know, I don't know what that is. Okay. So I don't, this is, this is good. We're figuring it out in real time. It's like, um, so I think there used to be something called Meta. There still is something called Meta Verified, which is like you can pay to get the verification. And then there's these additional benefits for different tiers that you could have. I think relatively new, there is this thing called Meta One. I think it seems like maybe it's the next evolution of Meta Verified with some additional features and functionality. So like one of the things that exists with Meta One is that it will auto-invite anybody who's not a follower who engages with your content. So way back there used to, I don't know if you remember this or if it existed as you were working within Facebook, there's this little like area within the Meta Business Suite where you could do like a mass send invite to anybody who interacted with your content that wasn't a follower. Did you see this or do you ever remember seeing it?

Okay.

So it was like this little, it was kind of like buried within the feature set of Facebook. And so if like 1,000 people who weren't your followers interacted with your content, you could go in and like select all and send an invite for them to follow your page. Meta One apparently has this ability now where if anybody interacts with your content, they're not a follower. I don't know what it looks like functionally, but it like sends an invite to them. It's something that we just signed up for. We're trying to get an understanding of the benefit of it. One of the things that you can do within it, and this is the question that I have for you, is there's this like linking that you can do on Facebook Reels, still trying to figure out what that looks like. But from what I understand right now, it's within the mobile app. You get to the last screen and if you have MetaOne, you can add a link within the, there's like a field for the link. But then I think when it publishes, it's kind of buried, like you have to click and it's just like a little button or a little chiclet kind of thing that you would, that you'd click in. So it doesn't seem like it's super beneficial, but where are you putting links with the content that you're creating right now? We used to have the ability to schedule a comment within the Meta Business Suite dashboard, along with a post that was being scheduled. That's gone away for us. So now we're trying to figure out, do we include it in the captions? I know some people just like know when their content is going to be scheduled and then they jump in and put a comment in. So if you are getting that traffic to your site, where are you putting the comment and, or the link and how are you managing that?

Mm-hmm. Uh, and before I jump into that with like the Meta Verify and stuff, I don't use any of that. I didn't know about Meta One.

Sure. Breaking news. Yeah.

And for Meta Verify, I was like, I'm not paying for a verification. That's stupid to me.

Yeah.

I, I wasn't interested in any of that. Uh, but regardless of that, um, for the linking, I, for Instagram, I just do the, um, groceries list. I find that's the best. Just comment recipe and it'll DM them to automatically. Um, and like, I'm curious how the Instagram linking feature works that you were kind of explaining. Um, well, also like as a consumer, like I've never really clicked on a link unless it was an ad on Instagram. So I'm curious like how that would work.

Right. Within Instagram.

Yeah. Right.

You have to pay separately. There's, you could pay for a Meta One account for Instagram or for Facebook.

Okay.

We just have the Facebook one right now and we're kind of trying to work our way through understanding the feature set. might do Instagram as well. Like even just this morning I was texting Lindsay about it and she was like, ah, I don't know. It feels like one of those things where it's like, feels better to just kind of do the like organic route where you're not. But then also Meta has this like creator's account and there are people who are like, hey, I signed up for this thing and it was really great. Uh, the, the thing that they rec— that they were talking about, again, I don't really know exactly what this looks like, is the ability to like promote stories in a different way where more people would see it. So still very new to it, which is why I ask, just trying to figure out if anybody else has any experience with it. If anybody listening knows a lot about MetaOne, follow up with us because I'd love to have a conversation around it. But yeah, same idea where it's like, we're kind of trying to figure out how does it work well? Where are the opportunities for it? But on Facebook, what does that look like for you for linking?

Yeah, Facebook, I, um, put it in the comment. I was told that links aren't good to put in like the cap— like—

Right.

The caption of the video. So I don't do that. I usually, um, and it's stupid, you can't pin a comment on a Facebook Reel. And I've told Facebook, like my contact, I was like, that's stupid. Like you guys need to fix that. Um, so a way around it is, um, just comment like recipe here, post that, then you could pin that and then reply to your comment with the link. And then it'll constantly be pinned.

Um, are you scheduling that comment or do you do it after?

No, I do it after it's posted.

Okay. Yeah.

And then are you scheduling content or, sorry, say it again.

To answer your question, I was about to say, I wish I was organized enough to like have my content all scheduled out. That is the process. That's the goal of moving forward. Uh, that habit, like posting this, this, this. As of now, I told you, I'm day by day. Just—

I love it.

Okay.

Day by day.

I have not like all figured out. It is way more common than I think people realize that people are like in it, figuring it out every day and like building millions of followers, not by having some airtight process, but by like creating every day and pressing publish every day.

Yeah.

Obviously personalities are all different and people's approach is different. There are people who are like super scheduled and all of that as well. But I appreciate that. So you're not having to figure out the, like, how do you schedule a comment because you press publish and then you just comment. Yeah.

Yeah.

I just dislike scheduling. It's a time saver.

No, it's great.

I'm just not the most organized person myself, so it's hard for me to like get organized in that way. And also I do like the link in bio, so I always have it in my bio.

On Instagram?

Yeah. Well, Facebook, I have a, uh, the website. And then TikTok is the link in bio.

Okay, great.

But for TikTok, I do actually put the written recipe in the caption, um, just because I find, um, at least for TikTok, I don't think people as much are going to click the link and then go to your blog. Um, so I kind of am more okay with the recipe being in the caption because at least it creates that like relationship. And if they like the recipe, then they're gonna go to your blog.

Follow.

Yeah. Um, anything else on Facebook that you feel like would Uh, be important. It sounds like in terms of as it relates to your blog, maybe one of the most important platforms. Does that seem accurate?

No, 100%. Um, even with like cookbook sales, like that's where the conversions were happening. Again, at least for me, I don't know if it's like the aunties support me. I don't know if it's specifically to that. Um, I just find the conversions work the best. I just think it's also just a little bit easier, like the fact that you could click click the links a lot easier. Um, and it's not as much competition and I, I highly recommend, but I also post on every platform. Like I take the same video pretty much and post it everywhere and you never know how it's gonna perform.

How would you rank order the social platforms for you? Like if you had to, if you had to take one, starting with the one that you'd be most likely to take away, this is Survivor. This is like social media Survivor. Like which one is getting kicked off the island? And then incrementally work down until there's the one that you keep.

All right. For me and where like I'm at, um, I would first take out YouTube. Uh, again, this is for me, like ideally I would wish I had a YouTube, like long-form audience and all that. I just don't. Um, so I would take that out first. Then it might be TikTok I would take out next. And then it's hard because the thing is with Facebook, you don't get brand deals really. That's the only thing that Facebook, like if you have an audience, you're not really gonna get any brand deal opportunities. TikTok and Instagram are what you get that for.

Um, and really Instagram probably more than TikTok.

Yeah.

Does that feel true?

I find most of the deals, like I would say 90% of my deals, um, are both and.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's syndicated. So you post the same video on Instagram and TikTok.

Yeah.

Uh, so that's why it's like, I'm like torn. I don't, I don't know if I would give, I don't know which one I would give up. I feel like it depends on my goal. Like, do I wanna continue doing brand partnerships or am I trying to like only focus on blogging or whatever?

Yeah. What does that look like within, like, if you were to look at your business right now, you know, you have, uh, Cake Decorating has gone to zero.

Yes.

And now you've had your website within the last year. You have your cookbook, you have earnings from Facebook, you have brand deals. Very roughly speaking, like what would that pie chart look like in terms of percentages for your business?

Mm-hmm.

This year I would say is not typical because this is the year of my cookbook. Um, so I would say in terms of like my business revenue, like that's like 70, 80% of it just because it did really well.

Yeah.

And then, um, brand deals actually has been slow this year. Um, I would say no. Okay. Let's say like 70%, um, cookbook and then let's say like Honestly, I would put blog. This is hard, uh, 'cause it's also so inconsistent, like a brand deal. Yeah.

Month to month. Yeah. You might get a $20,000 brand deal.

I haven't gotten one in a minute.

Um, yeah.

Which I think is longer campaigns. Um, and like blogging is still so new to me. So like, I'm like, I just started reaching $20K a month. Like it's been like a gradual increase. Um, it wasn't like first day, like I was on Google AdSense for a little bit and then I went to Uh, Mediavine, actually pretty quick. Like, but like, this is like gonna be like my first or second Christmas. Like, I don't really know fully what to expect.

Sure. Um, so asking about that. In Q4. Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, but it sounds like—

I guess it's brand deal, blog, and then like, uh, creator fund thing.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cook— cookbook, brand deal, blog, and then kind of like Facebook bonuses or Facebook revenue. Yeah. Whatever it might be. But it sounds like the website is at the point where it's able to earn like a consistent $10K to $20K for you, primarily from traffic from Facebook, which is really incredible. Talk to me about the book. Like that is a, you kind of took a unique path in my right, in that it was a self-published cookbook.

Yeah.

So obviously a huge benefit of that being that you, I mean, downside is like you don't get the advance in the normal way that you would. Huge upside being that like it is now your product and you are Earning from the sales, like minus the cost of creating the book. Uh, what have you learned in the process of self-publishing a cookbook and then like promoting a self-published cookbook?

Mm-hmm. It's been a, it's been a long but like very fast journey. I wish I gave myself more time. So I kind of, I started the cookbook December of 2025, and I just, I noticed a lot of people are asking like, hey, where's your cookbook? Where's your cookbook? I didn't feel like I was ready, but my sisters who I work closely with, They're like, they're clearly asking for it, like get it together. So I was like, okay, I guess we're making a cookbook. And it's always been a dream too. Like I've been baking with my grandma and it's like a full circle moment, honestly. But I first was entertaining traditional publisher, like you said, the typical advance and stuff. I talked to my team 'cause I'm signed to a talent agency and they told me roughly your advance, maybe $100,000, $150,000, which I know sounds like a lot. But like cookbooks, the advance you have to pay with a photographer, an editor, recipe tester.

Yeah.

That's all coming from the advance. Your agent gets a cut, taxes. It goes, goes down a lot. And that's usually across like 3 years. 'Cause it takes time to write a cookbook. I was like, I don't wanna wait 3 years. I also like, I can do this myself. And I really felt like I could. So I hired my team. Um, my older sister, she's a professional graphic designer, which I got lucky with. So she actually designed the book.

Cool.

I found a photographer, I found an editor, I found an indexer, proofreader. Honestly, I just bought a bunch of cookbooks and I read what each person had. Like they all had the person's—

What is it? What's the team like?

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Okay.

There's an editor. Let's find an editor.

I was like, we gotta make that team. That's clearly what's the process. That's the secret formula. Ultimately, I really wanted creative control too. Um, and you make the most money self-publishing. I was like, I have the audience and I know I can do it. So that's the process of that. It took some time. I recipe tested all the recipes. I wrote them, photographed with my amazing photographer. Um, but like I said, I started in January, um, December, and then like till like the summer we started printing the books overseas too. And another thing is like, you typically, I find most people when they self-publish, they do KDP, which is, um, like print on demand with Amazon.

Mm-hmm.

Um, I didn't think the margins made sense. Like I'm very much like, it just, It has to make sense mathematically. And I was like, I'm doing all this work, but you're like making so little because Amazon, like the printing costs, like it takes a lot when you print on demand. So I realized—

Essentially what's happening is like you don't have inventory, but then you have a super high cost per print. So you're not able to make as much.

Yeah. But it's like a super high cost. And I was like, well, this isn't going to make sense to me. And again, I—

Either you'd have to like charge way more for the book to make more, or you would not make as much.

Exactly. And I'm, I was very fortunate. I have like a following already. So I was like, Well, like, I have the audience, um, so the risk is a little bit tinier. Um, and I saw most books are printed in China or overseas, so I was like, I'm printing my book overseas. Um, so I printed a whole, um, first I printed a 15K run. Um, and I was like, I was not gonna do that. My family was like telling me, do it, you need more. I was only gonna print like 3,000 books.

Yeah.

I was afraid no one was gonna buy the book. Uh, I know it sounds crazy, but I was like, I've never really sold anything. To like my audience now. Um, I was like, I don't know how much they like me. Like I was nervous.

Sure. Yeah. It's like you, when you've never sold a thing.

Exactly.

Maybe it's like people love watching your content, but maybe they're not gonna buy it.

Buy it.

Yeah.

I have no idea. Do they even want a cook— like they say they want a cookbook, but like, are they actually gonna buy the cookbook?

Sure. Yeah. Um, and so originally you were thinking of doing 15,000?

No, like I was gonna do like 3 to 5,000 was mine, but my family was like, no, you're dumb. You need to order more. But I ultimately decided to do 15K for the first run. And then once—

So how much does that cost when you are ordering 15,000 cookbooks?

Oh, it was like $60,000.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's a costly thing.

Um, and then where do they go? You order 'em, where do they show up?

Yeah, that was another concern. Um, so I, again, I did a lot, a lot of research. So I have a fulfillment center that I hired. Um, and they handle all shipping. They store your books, they'll ship out the books, so you never really touch a book. Um, so it's almost like KDP printing on demand. Um, you just have a little bit more logistical to handle and obviously the upfront cost. Um, so they have that all. And then as I did pre-orders, I quickly was selling the books and I was like, oh, I need to order more books. So then I did another 15K run. Um, and yeah.

Amazing. So you, I mean, 30,000 total. You did that 15, you did presale. How did you, how do you do presale for a book like that? Like, are you sending people to Amazon? Are you sending them to a Shopify page? And then what was the most effective way to get people to sign up and buy the cookbook?

So I did mine on Shopify. So my own website I made, I made a whole Nice thing. I had a photo shoot, book product, all that. I set it up. And that's the only way you could buy the book as of now. And in terms of promoting the book, again, I looked at, I just searched cookbook like in TikTok and I saw what kind of videos are people posting? How do they promote the book? And I saw a lot of people usually showcase the COVID first with a huge poster. So I was like, oh, that's cute. Let me do that. And I did my own version of that. And that's actually how I announced the book. Um, and I just like, again, I'm just like implementing things that worked and then just putting my twist on it and it just converts well.

Yeah. So, so functionally what was happening is you said, hey, I have this cookbook. You can preorder it here. People would be able to like click, swipe, whatever the interaction is on the given platform that would take them to the Shopify preorder initially page. They would pay the full price for the book. Uh, you had a sense then for how many people would, were interested in it and through posting primarily to your social platforms, uh, you were able to sell through that initial run of 15,000. Is that right?

Uh, just about. Yeah.

Yeah. That's amazing.

I mean, we're still like, I don't know when this is being posted, but we're technically still in preorder, um, for like another 2 weeks or so, but just about. Yeah.

Yeah. That's awesome. What a huge accomplishment. And so that obviously, like what you're saying, becomes a huge driver of revenue for your business because you took the risk. You said no to getting an advance. You took the risk of the cost. You took the risk of the work. You paid for all of that upfront, and now you're able to recoup that. One of the things we often talk about is like the best thing for a creator is to have a product. Like, ads are great if you're able to figure out traffic, like affiliates, great if you're able to capture some of that type of income, but man, if you have a product that can be a really powerful, impactful thing. And it's cool to see that as an example where you have built this following, you've figured out along the way, applied that same methodology to saying like, I'm going to learn by researching by seeing what other people are doing, going to put my spin on that. And then being able to kind of capture that start to finish with, you've built these social platforms, but then you're also able to capture that on the other side by this cookbook that you've created. So what would your advice be for somebody who looks at you and says, I would really love to be doing what Justin is doing? Like, Creating content, uh, having this be my full-time job. What is your advice for somebody who's interested in kind of doing a similar thing?

Mm-hmm.

Good question. And just a quick note too, cuz as you were saying, another thing came to me, uh, for the cookbook. Another reason why I wanted to be independent was full creativity. Like I had a certain vision for the book. Like it's very close to family. It's about home. It's called Better Than Grandma's. And I wasn't, I wasn't sure if a publisher would like that. Um, and a very important thing was video tutorials. So I wanted a QR code that you could scan and it'll take you to a video tutorials for every recipe so you could learn either written or with me baking with me. Um, so I really like that process that I can make all decisions. Um, but going into your question advice, I would say, um, try not to compare in the sense of like, oh, she's so much further, I won't get there. Like it can happen to you. It just takes a lot of time, a lot of consistency. Consistency is the key. I've been doing this for a long time.

Yeah.

Posting a lot. And, um, I would say always, always be open to learning. Like, you can learn so much from anyone, from anything. Um, whether it's like, I, now when I consume content, I try not to consume it as just like for entertainment. I try to now pay attention to like, okay, how long is our caption? How long is this video? How did the video perform? What was the hook of the video? Because now you're just constantly getting more data, more information on what's working for other people, what is like What are the trends? What's kind of dying out? And it's just gonna help you perform and create better content. And another, like immediately, like yesterday, start a blog if you don't, uh, like put the recipe in the Instagram caption or nothing. Like it doesn't make sense. You can be making more money starting a blog. And I wish someone told me that. So I like tell everyone, like, if you're a foodie, you should start a blog.

Yeah, it's crazy. We've seen this really significant shift as we've been in this industry where as we came up, people would start a blog and then they'd build social around it. And now almost always when we're having people who have started a creator business within the last 5, 6, 7 years, they've started by building a social following and have come around to a blog or a website. And it's, I think maybe specific to this industry a little bit, But also just generally interesting in that, uh, the sentiment I think is generally like a blog is dead, websites are dead. Uh, but it's still such an important place of like interaction on the internet, especially for the type of content that we're creating. So it's interesting to see that shift where it's like still important, but it's like downstream of social as opposed to social being downstream of a website. So, um, if people want to check out the book, Justin, obviously it's a huge launch and a busy season that you have here as you're doing podcast interviews, uh, kind of prepping for the launch of it. It will officially be out. When does it, when does it?

April 15th.

Okay. So this, uh, podcast will be released maybe like a week or so after. Uh, so it'll be available so people can check it out if they want to do that. Where can they, where can they pick it up?

Yeah, you can find the book at shop.everythingjustbaked.com. Um, has all the information and I would love for you to get it.

Awesome. Uh, we'll pick up a copy for sure. And, uh, I'm sure other people will as well. Justin, thanks for coming on. Really appreciate you sharing all your insights and your story.

Thank you for having me.

Hey there, this is Emily. Thank you so much for listening to that episode of the podcast. As always, if you enjoyed the episode, we would really appreciate it if you could share it with your community. It helps so much to get the word out about our podcast. We will be back next week with another interview. We are welcoming back Yvette Marquez from Muy Bueno Cookbook, and she'll be chatting all about the future of food blogging from her perspective. Thanks again for listening. We'll see you back here next week.