Strivin & Thrivin EP61. Chloe Spillane - Talent Acquisition Leader & Career Coach

Striving and thriving is the career development podcast inspiring you to make some bold changes. It's time to sweat the big stuff. Each week we speak to industry figureheads at different stages of their journey to understand what it takes to successfully manage your career.

I'm your host, Laura Johnson, and today I'm joined by Chloe. We talk about her journey from actress to recruiting to career coaching. I love Chloe's path and how she's found her passion. Okay, Chloe, to get us started, can you tell us a bit about your career background and your current role?

My career background? Well, it's a diverse one. Definitely not linear. I wanted to be an actor, actually, when I first got in the game. So I got an acting degree, did a year in stage management and I was being the typical, you know, actor doing waitressing gigs on the side and kind of got over the whole waitressing thing and then decided to work for Flight center, which is bit random, but got into Flight center and I was working for them for three and a half years, which was an awesome experience. You know, being frontline sales, got some great travel perks and all of that. And then, then I decided to go wholesale with travel. Did that for about a year and then I was thinking, oh, I'm just trying to figure out what's next for me, blah, blah, blah. So I went to a recruiter, travel recruiter, and they did their job very well and switch sold me into recruitment. I went there for them to help me with their career and they said, how about you start in recruitment? So that's what I did. So I started up with that agency that was like an agency, recruitment, travel, tourism. And then about a year and a half in there, I decided that internal was definitely my calling in terms of representing one brand, building those relationships with hiring managers. The whole strategic part of talent acquisition just really brought me in. I'm a definitely a brand champion. I'm a sucker for just promoting that one brand, living and breathing it. So then I got. I started doing the talent acquisition role for Morgan McKinley when I was recruiting recruiters, my first time recruiting recruiters and was there for a bit, and then got approach to head up the internal recruitment team at talent. And that was an amazing role. I loved my time there because it was essentially a bit greenfield. They didn't have an internal recruitment function. So they brought me on to be a part of the team that built that. So that was super exciting to be able to go in pretty much with a blank canvas with the rest of the. With key members of the talent Solutions team to build that end, working with all the different managing directors across different offices to see what works, what kind of hiring process we're going to put into place, what the best way to recruit was for them and learning from them, you know, what worked, what they needed help with and how we could all work together to, yes, essentially unite the internal recruitment function. And yeah, did a lot of hires, built the function and then unfortunately, just with the direction of the business, I was made redundant in January. Things happen, business decisions need to be made and that's it really. So got my redundant and then threw myself back into the job market, put up a post on LinkedIn about being made redundant that went viral, which was amazing. Got approached by, I think I had 72 different job opportunities that were presented to me, which was insane. And I was just so grateful for our network, you know, like the whole community within talent acquisition recruitment. Everyone was just phenomenal. Everyone reached out and just words of condolence or just saying nice things and introducing me to people and, and all that. So all of these people helped me and went above and beyond to get me a job. I went for interviews, got some offers and then I decided to say no to all the job opportunities and go out of my own. So thank you to everyone who helped me. I assure you it wasn't a waste of time. It helped me, made the decision to go where I am now. So now I have combined my unique and random skill set and made it my own thing. I do a bit of career coaching, I do recruitment coaching which I didn't realize I would be doing, but a rector asked me to come and coach their people for a day and I was like, oh, I guess the past, what, three and a bit years I've been recruiting recruiters. So I know how to do it. Did a day of that and realized, oh, that's awesome. So doing that and then worked in social media management for a bit as well. I help clients, just ad hoc bit of freelance with that. And then I'm freelancing for a business called Talent Ecology where I am essentially their representative for talent acquisition and recruitment. And so when they sign on a new client, they put me on site to deliver recruitment solutions, talent solutions. And then I have my own little consulting piece that I'm working on. As I said, my put out one of my first proposals today to a catering company who I also work for on a waitressing, waitressing basis. Realities of starting up your own business, sometimes you just got to do a few extra jobs to keep you running and bring in some consistent cash flow. So yeah, I'm doing bit of waitressing events and catering as well. So it's a very mixed bag at the moment. It's a lot, but I'm loving it. Yeah. And that's me where I am and what I've done.

I love all of that. I don't know how there's enough hours in the day to fill that in, but sure, I guess in terms of. You are the second person today that said I went to speak to a recruiter about a job in X and then I ended up becoming a recruiter. So I do feel like there's something in there. The accidental. But you obviously you stuck with it and then you moved to ta. So there's obviously something you're super passionate about. What do you think it is about recruitment that you fell in love with?

Candidate experience Front of mind. I am just so, so passionate, involved. The way the candidate feels throughout the hiring process is just something I think is so critical to any business. The employer brand piece and how an organization is represented in the market is something I'm also really fascinated by and how much power you can have with that and influence. Though for me, I don't know, maybe because of my own experiences and my own career journey and being lost, having my own moments of being lost and going through my own bad interview processes and things like that. It's just we have the power to create these incredible candidate experiences and make people feel really special throughout a hiring process. And I think that's a pretty, pretty incredible thing to be able to have control over. So I can't fathom not providing a positive candidate experience. Like I just can't do that. It's just not a thing. So. So I would say the candidate experience is definitely something I'm super passionate about and I think just recruitment efficiencies. So organizations that perhaps haven't had a focus on recruitment, I just might just chuck up a job ad, ask some friends and just becomes this bit of a, oh God, I've got to do recruitment. It's a bit of like a hassle, a bit of a stressful thing being able to go into an organization, educate people on how efficient your recruitment process can be and how impactful your employer brand can be and how you can attract the right talent by promoting yourself. Well, I find that really satisfying and through like some of the consulting work I do, that's you, you know, you're able to have that impact and, and show people an easier way that it can be done and how to make it a bit more enjoyable.

That's a great summary. And then I guess in terms of then moving recruitment into in house, I know you mentioned you're a big fan of brand and shouting out about that, but I guess, couple of questions on that. Like, one, what was the real catalyst for change? And then what do you think are the skills that really set you up in recruitment that made you successful in that kind of more internal role?

For me, yeah, definitely the brand piece, representing one brand. I've always been like that. I think for me, the relationship piece was a real key driver. Like the catalyst. I think I found when I was in agency, I had lots of clients that I was servicing. And maybe it was, you know, the specific role I was in, the team I was in. Maybe I was working with too many clients. Like I had good relationships with them all, but I felt that there was so much more I could be getting out of each of my clients and I didn't feel like I had the capacity to do that. And it wasn't satisfying enough for me. Like, I really just wanted to sit with one business and completely develop, like, do a whole overhaul of their whole recruitment strategy. And I thought, okay, this perhaps. I think there is a space for that in agency. When you really start to develop your niche, hone in on the sector that you're a specialist in. And perhaps if I'd stayed at it, maybe that would have happened. But I think for me at the time, that key driver of building relationships having a real impact on an organization, I didn't feel I was getting that. I did feel like I was a bit transactional. And as I said, that wasn't as fulfilling for me. And so when I spoke to someone about it, I can't remember who it was, they recommended that I go internal because that's where you can have more of a seat at the table and build those stronger relationships with your hiring managers and all that.

Yeah, makes a lot of sense, I guess. Then skills from recruitment into ta, what do you think made you successful in those roles?

I feel like I keep banging on about relationships, but I think my ability to just like connect really quickly with people and build quick rapport and I think credibility, like being able to know your product, know what you're doing and know what you can deliver will be successful and the impact of what you will deliver for that business. I think as a recruitment consultant, a successful recruiter, they need to be especially like they need to be an expert at their craft. So their clients are paying them good money to hire the best talent for them and create seamless recruitment processes for them as well. So having that going internal was massive, especially at talent because we were building a whole new function. So I had to very quickly build that credibility and trust with all of the managing directors that some of them have been a talent for 15 years. So why would they trust some chick that's got a few years in recruitment coming in to build some new function like what can she do? So for me it was very much about, okay, how can I show my credibility? Let's collaborate, work together to build this new thing. And I think in recruitment, because it is. You are a third party as an agency, being able to build that credibility and those relationships very quickly is critical. And I think there's definitely a much better way to say this, but it's like past 5 o'. Clock, like working in a. Being able to work in a fast paced environment. When they say you listen to like TikToks and that they're like, no, if someone says that it's toxic. But I feel like in recruitment you have to be able to like pivot, adapt, work really quickly and think on the spot. And I think that's. You definitely have to do that internal as well in a different capacity. But it's still definitely a skill you need to have in those in communication skills, again they come across as well. I think they're the top ones that come to mind. And of course you focus on the candidate being candidate and client central in your work. Candidate and client centric in your work definitely comes across to internal too.

Yeah, I think I smart when you said about the TikToks when it says about fast paced environment. There was a great meaning the other day that I saw around it. If it's not that then you just made it so. But I feel like when you dig into it, it's around like is it fast paced because you've not set anything up for success and you've just let this craziness happen or is it probably more to your example with fast paced is fast paced because the market's changing and clients change. And I think that's very different because that's fast paced, uncontrollable rather than fast paced because we've decided not to control it.

Yeah, and I think that's such a good point and such a good way to analyze it because clients needs can change like that. You might need to pivot on the, on the role that you're working on. You might need to act really fast if they can, you know you're trying to, if someone's got a counteroffer, things like that. So I think when you say the word fast paced in recruitment, it's because it is an ever changing environment. So it's like how quickly can you adapt and pivot when you're in those circumstances? I think it's very obvious why it's that way in agency, but I think internal, a lot of people forget sometimes when you're in internal, all of your hiring managers or clients, they're in the room with you. If you're sitting in the office, they can just come from their desk and be like, hey Chloe, like what's going on with that role? What happened with that candidate? We're changing this, we're doing that. So you need to be really on the ball. I think if you. In both, both worlds. Yeah.

And I guess just like, like change. And I know that sounds stupid but because I know when everyone really loves change, right? Some people love that and you thrive in that environment because you're, you're a problem solver. So you're like, yeah, come at me, I got this, don't worry. Like, let's go. And other people are like, no, I want to know what my job looks like on a day to day basis and I don't want that kind of thing. So I do think it's a bit of a, I don't know if it's personality type or a strength, but some people love that. Problem solving, let us go. And I feel like that's your talent acquisition because you're dealing with people, right? And everyone's got their own lives going on outside of work and they've got 101 things that they're juggling. It's understandable that it changes so quickly because that's life. But I think it's the only one that where someone said to me, recruitment, whether it's in house or agency, is the only time that you often have to do a two way sell and you're dealing with two completely unpredictable scenarios either side. So I think when I heard that I was like, it does make a lot of sense. You can understand why people burnout or. But also where they love it. Because if you can find someone, the perfect team member or someone, the perfect team, I can't think of anything better than that. And I've never worked in recruitment and that really excites me. At the same time you can, you think when you've just about got it over the line and then it all falls apart, you'd be gutted like it's just complete eyes and lows.

Totally. But it's also that thrill. Like, sounds like sick, but, you know, someone like drops out last minute, you're like, oh yeah, okay, let's fix it. How do we fix this? Like, so it is definitely that mindset. And you know, they say some people are like really driven by that. It's, you know, when they say people that do things, I'm not saying I'm someone that does things last minute always, but you know, up against the wall, you've got to make quick decisions, get things done quickly. I think, yeah, people tend to fit in that. I don't want to say people fit in a box, but generally people that have those kind of ways of working will have those similar tendencies. So I think it's also really interesting, like looking at people in recruitment. Like, even if you're someone that doesn't operate like that, but you work in a very structured, consistent way, that is also a very successful person to be in recruitment because they follow processes really well. And I think like they're really consistent. If they have KPIs, they will stick to those KPIs and do exactly what the KPIs are. So I think there's definitely a place there. But it's like, what's the right type of recruitment for that person? Like potentially could be a specific sector in agency. I'm not a contractor, contract recruiter, specialist, but maybe that could be an area that they, they do better in as opposed to perm or something. Or maybe it's the other way around. Maybe contractors more like volatile than perm. I don't know. But yeah, I think you can have both personalities be successful in recruitment too.

Yeah. And I guess it just highlights there as well just the facets involved with recruitment. Like it isn't one size fits all. There's so many different elements of it. And even to your point, to the types that alone when you get into job roles, there's always something new to learn. And I guess it's just a changing landscape. Even like as you said in the last couple of years, how much things have changed where you came from. So on that 72 opportunities is wild. I guess I'd love to talk through then the decision to start your own business because I feel like redundancy is an awful thing for people to have to go through. Like it's just, just a complete range of emotions, right. That you go through from start to finish on that and you've got all these opportunities coming your way and you're like, you know what stuff this bad market, I'm gonna go and start my own business. Talk me through that.

Yeah, that's. Look, you pretty much summed it up very well. That's my thought pattern. So redundancy, obviously, understand the business decision. You can't take it personally. And, you know, I had such an amazing time at Talent. Of course it was disappointing that that happened. You know, I thought I would have a bit of a future there, but I learned so much working in that organization, and I'm now taking that with me. So it was. Everything happens for a reason. And it was the next, I guess, the pivot of where I was meant to be going next. Yeah, I guess the range of emotions that you go through. Like, I spent maybe a week just feeling a bit numb and not sure what was happening. And just really, it was really down. Like, you just feel pretty, pretty awful. And then, yeah, I put up this LinkedIn post and that was the real catalyst for everything just going, like, because I thought, oh, look, let's just take it easy. I was someone that a lot of people were saying, oh, go on a holiday, chill out, and then come back and get a job. And I thought, no, I prefer to get a job first, then go on a holiday and so I can relax then. But, yeah, I did this LinkedIn post, and because of how viral it went, and because I was just getting messages instantly, obviously I wasn't just going to sit there and say, oh, I'm just going to go to Bali for three weeks. I'll get back to you when I return. I just went straight into it. So second week. And in hindsight, I probably could have done that and it would have been okay. But literally, the second week after I got made redundant, I was. I think I had. I can't remember, but it was definitely somewhere between 10 to 15 meetings in one week. And I don't think I'd actually fully processed the redundancy Then, like, within a fortnight, I was already talking about other job opportunities. And I'm going, wait a second, did I get my redundant? Like, what's going on? And, yeah, I hadn't processed it. I would go to these interviews, I have great conversations. We'd finish the conversation and go, oh, great, when can you come in next? And then I come home and cry for two hours. That's me. Like, that's me just being very vulnerable there. But I think I was just in such a state emotionally. Like, it was such a roller coaster, you know, I thought I was doing what I should be doing. But really I wasn't ready to take that next step. I needed time to digest and process. But it was, yeah, a crazy, crazy amount of emotion. But yeah, there was a point where I think it was within a couple of weeks I had three different job offers and they were all with brilliant companies, great offers, awesome money, bit of a no brainer, but there was just something missing for me. There was not that sounds so cliche, but there wasn't that real spark. Like I wasn't going, oh, I'm so excited about this role. I was like, oh, cool, awesome. This is cool. Something missing. And I'm like, oh, surely just because I've been every done and doesn't mean that I just need to step into a role because it ticks a few boxes. Like I'm intrinsically someone that I get extremely involved in work and people emotional, very, very invested and you know, to not have that real feeling in my gut that this was the role that was going to be my next step in my pivotal career, which is I just wasn't prepared to take a job where it excite me enough. And also it's not fair on the employer. If I'm stepping into this role, I get six months in and I'm like, what am I doing? I don't want to do this. And it's not fair on both parties. And you know, you always want to be considerate of that. So, yeah, I actually met with Joss who heads up Talent Ecology and she. I was kind of talking to her about how I had these offers and you know, I wasn't really sure. And she's like, oh, well, if you come on with me, it can be freelance and it can just be some backup work. And I was like, okay, yeah, that could be cool. That could be something that works well for me because I was also doing some social media management work with my. I do like food and bar influencing stuff. And so it just worked well for me. And then she said something to me. I actually haven't told her this. She had like this influence in my decision, but when she was asking me for like my details and name as a contractor, she's like, oh, you know, what are you operating under? Is it Chloe recruitment? And I'm like, oh, I don't actually have a name. So I then I actually thought, oh, maybe I should just, maybe I should just make my own business. Maybe I should just do my own thing. And I was like, I've always wanted to do it. I've always known that I've wanted to run my own business. I've always wanted to do my own thing, always. Years and years and years. But I've always had that thought, I'm not experienced enough, I'm not ready enough, I don't have credibility, I haven't been in the market long enough, blah, blah, blah, you know, people around me saying, oh, maybe you should get some more experience in A, B and C. And then this happened, the conversation with talent ecology and I was like, stop it, let's just go for it. Like, okay, fine. Every conversation I was having, every decision that started to happen just led me into the direction of starting up my own business. And I was like, well, I have this drive and this desire to do it and I may as well just do it now. And if I fail, I fail. At least I tried. I never want to be the person that wonders what if, what if I did take that plunge sitting in this full time corporate job that I'm not really happy or I wonder if I had taken the plunge and going out on my own, where I would be now. And that was also like a real driver for me. So I guess there's no real structure, I didn't know real thought into coming out on my own. But it was just, it just was the natural progression of what I, what I just felt was right and I'm not afraid to take risks and just put myself out there and throw myself into the deep end. And that's just what I did. And yeah, it's a roller coaster. As I said. I am working like four or three other jobs to just keep me going until I get some more consistency and I'm getting some brilliant feedback and super like massive highs, you know. After our conversation, I'm meeting with two coaching clients. So yeah, it's so exciting and I'm. There's not a day that goes by that I regret my decision or question my decision.

I think when you said that there's not much thought gone into it. I don't think that's true. Like, I think maybe you haven't thought about it in the way that some people would sit and you know, write pros and cons and maybe they've got this career plan mapped out, but it sounds like you really thought it through and you're making it work no matter what. Because the sensible thing to do realistically or what society would have told us to do is, you know, you take the job. Right? Why would you start trying to start a business by yourself? Like, let's face it, we've both Done it. There's never a good time not to earn money, let's be brutally honest about it. So there's never a right time to do it. You'll never think that you know enough, and you'll never think that your network's gonna. Or whatever else. There's always an excuse not to. So the fact that you did, despite the fact that you had these offers on the table and all that momentum, I think shows that it was really thought through and you're really backing yourself, and that's pretty huge.

Yeah, no, it's a good point. It's almost like I always knew it would look. As I said, it was thought I've had for years and years. So I guess when you look at it like that. Yes, I have been thinking about it for a long time, though, as you say, there's never a right time to do it and you can never be ready enough and. And all that. So, yeah, that's a good point. Thanks. Thanks for the ratio.

Anytime. Anytime you need a reframe, let me know. And also, I guess only the other thing. You will learn more in your first year of having your own business than any job you could ever take. Like, hands down. And whatever happens after it, and I'm sure that it'll be wildly successful, but whatever you do, having your own business will set you up to do anything, because you've just had to learn to do fucking everything yourself, let's face it.

Yeah, literally. Yeah, I'm like, zero invoice.

Right. That's what I mean. Like, I remember one day sitting there, just being like, I feel like every day I'm learning a new piece of tech. Whatever happens, you'll never learn as much as you do in that first year of business, but you'll probably cry more than any other job or I have at least. Maybe that's projection.

No, no, there's definitely been tears. Yeah, definitely. It's like you probably experiences. Well, yes, there's tears, yes, there's frustration, yes, there's those shitty days. But when you get those wins and when you have those amazing days, it just like, oh, you can't describe the feeling. Like, it just trumps everything tenfold. And you're like, yes, this is why I'm doing this. This is it.

So, yeah, okay. Going back to career, obviously, in that I'd love to know the best and worst career advice you've had along the way.

Oh, gosh, I think it's funny. The worst career advice comes to mind first. And look, it's not from a Specific person, but I guess that's an interesting one. I feel like it's that whole idea of whenever you go into a new organization, and I don't know if it's a bit of a generational thing, and it's definitely not me feeling like, oh, I'm entitled and everyone should listen to me, but that whole idea of going in at the bottom, keeping quiet, not saying anything until you show you can do your job. And I understand the idea around that. Like, and I've been told, like, I think I've been told that by people just along my career. You know, when you go into this role, just, you know, sit there, be quiet, show that you can do your job well. And, and once you can do your job well, then you can speak up. And I think there's two pieces to that. I think. I don't think you need to go in there and not say anything and not speak up, because firstly, people want to hear new ideas. And sometimes when you're coming from a completely different organization or different background into a business where perhaps people have been there for a long time, they might not have that objective view that you would have coming in as a new person. So I think there's a lot to be said about new people coming into organizations, sharing their new opinions, beliefs, ideas. But I think what the key balance there is being able to show your value as well as building credibility and not having that entitlement or that arrogance that you're going to go in and be like, oh, you're doing it all wrong. This is how it should be done. So I think there's a real fine balance there of making it be a really good thing to go into an organization. Yes. You want to build your credibility and you want to show that you can do your job. Obviously, that you shouldn't feel like you need to be silent until you can prove your worth. That it's. It's about, how can I add value to the organization without. Yeah. Like, and still come across in a positive way or not in an entitled way. And I, I think that's something that rings true to me now. Like, whenever I start somewhere, even a recent consulting role I started on, like, I gave my opinion literally the first day that I was there. And it wasn't like, you come in and you give someone, like, oh, do it this way. It's better. It's like, oh, have you thought about doing it like this? So, yeah, that was a very long way of me saying, stay quiet or keep your opinions to yourself. When you go to A new organization and I guess the other one. And you know, there's arguments around this one as well, but showing your loyalty to a company, even if it's not not working out for you. And I guess there's a real topic there around like, oh, you should just stick it out, you might get better. You've only been there for a few months, just give it a little bit longer. I don't know, like, do you want to stay in a potentially toxic environment that's just not right for you, not the right place for you? Or should you just cut the ties now and say, no, this isn't right, I'm just gonna like to save both our time, I'm gonna leave now because we're not suited for each other. It's like a relationship. Right. So do you leave them on or do you cut the tie? And that was, I guess that's definitely something that has been really hard for me to break that cycle of I have to stay here because I have to stick it out. Because that's what you meant to do. Yeah, I think that rings you. But recently, like a waitressing job I was in, I was there for two weeks and I'm like, oh no, they wanted something for me that I couldn't, like, you know, hours or time or whatever they couldn't give. And I was like, no, this isn't going to work so I'm just going to cut it off. And it was going to like, I'm saving their time as well. So yeah, they're two things that I just kind of spoke for way too long about.

But I feel like on both of those, like, I feel like there's something around maturity on both of them. Like you're right, I don't believe in there, like you've got to stay quiet and earn your stripes type mentality. But I also think to your point in that consulting gig, in the example you gave, there's a way to put it across that isn't like, I know the answers. It's like, hey, have you thought about this? And you can say something with curiosity because you're also asking a question whilst giving your opinion. And maybe that's something that comes with maturity. And I think the same on the one of realizing when there's not a values match. And like 21 year old US would not have even thought about values when we went into a job. We just needed someone to pay us some money after university. Right. Or after acting gigs. But now it's like if the values alignment is off, it's not going to come good whether you spend three months there, six months there, whatever. So you are better off calling it quits for both sides because it's not a productive relationship for anyone. So I think it's both great advice and I think there's definitely that bit of probably maturity and you need to have a few jobs under your belt to know that and know that it's okay to feel that way.

Yeah, definitely it. 100% maturity thing. I was thinking back to me at 20, definitely would not do that. Be like, yeah, like I just need.

A job on that. What do you wish you could go back and tell 21 year old Chloe in her first job?

Well, I think I was thinking about the best piece of career advice that it came to me. And I would tell this to myself at 21 as well. Never be afraid to fail spectacularly, because when you fail spectacularly, that is when you learn the most. And when you learn from something, you grow. And we are always wanting to grow and evolve in all facets of our life, so. So especially when you're a recent graduate or in your first job, like you're scared to make a mistake, but make the big mistakes, do the massive errors, always be honest about it, own it, learn from it and move on from it. And I think that's something that has been a massive game changer for me because I wouldn't have gone for the opportunities or learned what I have learned without failing pretty terribly. So that would be my advice for sure. Yeah.

Do you know, it's. I said that when I started to drive in and I was obviously feeling very punchy about it at the time, but somebody asked me an interview and I was just like, I will fail spectacularly. Like, I will make sure that everyone knows about my failure because then I know that I gave it a really good shot. And I will regret failing very publicly less than I will regret not giving it a go properly. And it's just one of those. But I definitely like 21 year old and I still have days where I'm like, why would I say that? But 21, no way would I want to fail publicly. But now you're like, gave a shot.

Yeah, I think being able to just own it. And I think this also ties in with the redundancy piece. And I think it's been a real popular thing on LinkedIn when people are made redundant, like owning it, being public about it, not being ashamed about it, and putting it out there because people want to help each other. People like a good story. People want to support one another.

So I think people do really want to help each other. Like, to your point earlier, with the talent acquisition community, I think in particular people can culture like the amount of people that have said things and you just see people rally around them to support. And that doesn't always mean that it's job opportunities, but it's someone that's going to listen and understands what you've been through and genuinely wants to help. And I will say, like, as tough as it has been to see and for all the people affected, it's awful. But it has been wonderful to see the amount of people that put their hands up to help.

Yeah, it's incredible and maybe a bit sad, but I didn't realize how big and connected and how wonderful our whole community is until I got made redundant. So, yeah, yeah, it's an amazing thing to be a part of. Absolutely.

Totally. Okay, two more questions. I'm going to let you go. So, obviously, few career changes now, one massive career change and the industry is moving all the time. How do you stay up to date with changes and keep on top of what's happening?

Yeah, I think the relationships I have with people in the industry, having conversations with people, hearing what they're doing, what they're having to change, how they're having to pivot, I think that's always going to be super helpful. Just getting those real life stories and examples and learning from those, from those peers and colleagues in the industry. Look, I'm always going to be looking up news, LinkedIn news and newsletters and all of that, but I would say for me, I like to keep it pretty simple. The best way that I can get information on what's changing is to talk to people that are in it.

Fantastic.

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