How to Succeed as an Associate - Interview with Dustin Houser

Thanks for taking the time to do this. I thought. I mean, I don't really have a sort of a clear, like, oh, this is like how I'd want to, like, structure a conversation. This is exactly what I want to do with it. But I've been keen to kind of chat to you for a while on this because I, I think we first started chatting around when you had your ftca, the, the six Figure associate presentation you did, which was a year or two ago, I think.

I think that's been two years ago. I think that was back in two. Yeah, yeah.

And it's great seeing somebody putting out, like, you know, here's a way to be really successful and have what you want and enjoy a great, you know, career as an associate. You know, not that you have to stay that way, obviously, but I think a lot of. I don't know how it is in the us but certainly here in the UK and Europe there's this kind of. There's a lot of people graduating, working as associate, but in a real rush to kind of like be their own business owner and be their own clinic owner. And even then there's a real rush to succeed. Like, I've had chats with all of my team about how, you know, they've been here six months and they're not mega successful. It's like, yeah, you've been here six months. Like, it takes that time. And I think it's probably a cultural thing, but I feel like there's a general sense of impatience for a lot of people to, like, get where they want to be right now. And I've seen it kind of sabotage things a little bit between clinic owners and associates as well. Like, the associate feels they're not what they want to be and it's, you know, the clinic isn't giving them what they need and the clinic owner feels like the associate is impatient. And then words like entitled site get thrown around on both sides and, you know, it can kind of spiral from there. I don't know how that is in the US or certainly with docs that you're in contact with. Is that something that you're seeing as well, this kind of like increased friction between clinic owners and associates?

I would say so I think by and large, you know, there are a handful of really good positions out there. But yeah, I think that's either some people try to come out and start right out of school and they just don't. They need to start their practice and they burn out, or they come out and they work for someone who, you know, lack of a better phrase or like slave drivers, you know, where they do, they overwork the associates and they do underpay them and they get frustrated. And like you said, on the other end of the spectrum, we have some students who come out of school and expect more or are even informed that they may be making more or doing better right out of school than reality really has set up for them. So I had that issue with a couple of my first associate positions. Yeah, this one's worked out really well, the one that I'm currently in now.

I mean, maybe I think what might be useful as well if you kind of like just sort of talk us through like your chiropractic story a little bit like how, how it was when you were at uni, what you were expecting, what it was like when you graduated, you know, those first couple of positions. Like what was that like for you?

Well, luckily I had, I had made some connections when I was in school. I, I went and did the, it was back, back then, it was called nclc. It was the big chiropractic convention that we have up in D.C. every year. And there's a lot of good continuing education seminars up there. There's also a good chance to just network and connect with people while we Capitol Hill lobbying for the, you know, progression of the profession. And I made some good connections there. So luckily I had a position lined up before I graduated and you know, I was really excited about that. And when you go to school, I think I feel like all the schools here's, here's the average salary for chiropractors and they're all showing like these six figure incomes that you just think you're going to leave school and kind of fall into.

Yeah, yeah.

Fortunately that first position was, was not, was not one of those. But it was a good learning experience. I'm glad I did it. But looking back now, I wish I had made more connections and kind of educated myself a little bit more on how to make more positions, opportunities available so you don't just take the first thing that comes to you. And I really kind of wish I would have waited until I found a better situation, but I just jumped right into that because it's what I had.

Yeah, so you'd kind of gone to the effort like of networking and so you'd got a job lined up. So it sounds like you kind of went out and looked for opportunities. On the other hand, it's like, well, I probably should have looked harder and spent more time and you kind of didn't know enough to sort of know a good versus a not good opportunity then is that fair?

I would say that's correct. Yes. Yeah, yeah. About the contract that I had, I was like, I don't know this, it was, it was kind of a skew between independent contractor position and an associate position. There was a lot, which I find that to be a huge issue, at least over here in the US Is.

Yeah, yeah, we're seeing the same here. It's like I want to treat you like an employee, but pay you like an independent contractor.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. But I learned from it. I found a much better position. My, my second job was actually with one of the chiropractors in ftca. One of my, one of my professors from my, one of my colleges actually put me together with this guy because he knew I was more sports minded, interested in doing maybe some sports chiropractic at some point and also a big Duke fan. So he connected me with Dr. Michael Krasnov, who was actually Duke's team chiropractor for I think like 10 to 15 years. Oh, wow. So him in Durham for, for a year. And I learned a ton there as much better position, but just decided I didn't want to be in Durham anymore. And that's when I decided to contact my previous chiropractor here in my hometown. And another colleague of mine had informed me that he was moving locations. The other doctor that owned the practice had retired and moved out and he may be looking for an associate. So I reached out to him and I've been here for just last month was my five year anniversary.

All right, so yeah, five years, it's obviously working well for you. You're happy there.

Oh, yeah, yeah. He made it clear when we met, he said, you know, he never had an associate before. So, you know, that first year or two, there may have been a little bit of butting heads, you know, just trying to kind of figure out the hierarchy of things, how to communicate, how, you know, he wanted things done, but at the same time, you know, kind of letting me do my own thing. But he let right up front that he didn't want to have one of these situations where he was constantly cycling through associates, you know, which you hear about clinics doing here all the time. And yeah, established where they've, they've built rapport between their patients and they've built up their own, their, their own clinic schedule, their patient schedule. They're ready to move on. And he said, you know, he's not really looking for something like that, so there was good, clear communication from the very beginning. I was best in this situation.

Yeah, brilliant. And so going back to that, that first position, like you said, you kind of, you know, you're like a bit naive. The student, like everyone is in the group graduate. We kind of, you know, don't always know what to look for. What would you, if you could go back in time, what would you say to yourself then? To say, hey, I think you know what you're getting into here, but this is what you should probably be looking for. What advice would you kind of give yourself then.

Really would be to go with my gut. You know, when I, when I read that, that contract, I'm like, I don't know, this, this just has some conflicting things here. It doesn't read like an associate position. And it was, it was like, it was a very low percentage that they wanted, they wanted me to, they were going to pay me. You know, I think it was only percent of my total collections. And you know, right out of school they put me in a clinic that was, in my opinion, looking back, it was not growing or it didn't have the current capacity or the growth happening that would warrant somebody coming in and being able to live on 30% of that.

So they want to pay you little but also not give you a lot of work.

Yeah, I mean it's, it was situations you're talking about where like the clinic wasn't really giving me enough, you know, I, I was happy if I saw maybe six or eight patients a day, you know, that, that was a Good, you know, 30% of that isn't, was not enough to live on.

Yeah, yeah. Especially with the student debt you got. I mean we, we like students over here complain about the student debt. Now it's like 9,000 pound a year, four years. It's like, yeah, you know, I paid three and like five years before that it was free. Like you didn't have to pay at all. So yeah, that's a tough deal compared to them. But it's not what you guys have over there. It's, it's what, like, you know, easily six figures minimum, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah.

That's a crazy amount of debt. And the way we do it is we tax it. So you kind of, it's paid back based on your earnings. So if you don't earn below, if you earn below a certain threshold, you don't pay it.

Right.

I always say if you're not paying back your student loans as an associate chiropractor, like something's gone wrong because the threshold is lower than what you should be getting. But at least, you know, okay, well, it's not like the bank is going to start knocking on my door, even if I'm not earning at the minute. So that's like, that's added pressure. I know for you guys over there, I mean, what was it in the contracts you mentioned? It was the, the pay was lower than you were expecting. Was there anything else in the contract that made you think, oh, this is, looking back was a bit of a yellow flag maybe?

I don't remember all the specifics in the contract because I don't, I don't really think they put a specified. It wasn't in there. You know, that was a big thing. They didn't put it in there. But, you know, I was, I was expected when I got there to, you know, work the same hours as the other doctor in there and, you know, go out, go out and acquire my own patients. I think that was a big part was I need, I had to go out and market myself to build up my side of the practice. And, but, but I remember it saying in there somewhere that though even those patients that I acquire are patients of the clinic, not of the doctor. So I was like, so I've got to go out there and market for myself to build up my patient schedule. But it like they're, they're patients of the clinic and not my patients, even though I'm, you know, so. Yeah, yeah, a yellow flag right there. I was like, okay, so you guys want me to make a market for you, but you're only going to pay me 30% and then you get to keep the patients? Like, I didn't really. That was, that was like, okay, that'd.

Make sense against that blaring lines, isn't it? Like, am I self employed, rent a room or am I an employee here?

Right.

Yeah.

Right. Yeah.

Okay, so what was it that, how long were you there for? Was it about a year, did you say?

A year and a half? I think about.

Okay, was there, I mean, were you kind of like just gradually like, ah, this isn't great, I'm going to keep an eye out. Or was there a moment where you were like, okay, I've made a mistake, I've got to change. Was that like a slow thing or a fairly fast realization, do you think?

I think it was pretty slow. Just because, you know, ever in clinic, that was about how many patients we were seeing in there. So, like, this is kind of a normal day, you know, I'm Used to seeing six to eight patients a day. And that, that was a good schedule in school, clinic. But, you know, so you start, you start collecting some of those paychecks. You're like, this is not, this is not, you know, feasible.

This isn't what the college promised me. I'll be getting in my first year.

Yeah, yeah. And it was interesting situation too because the clinic that I went into, the, the doctor who owned the clinic or they were building the clinic for had just had a major surgery. So he was out for six to eight weeks. So I basically came straight out of school and I was the only doctor there, so I was practically running the place with his assistant. And so that was where I got the most invaluable experience though. Like basically kind of learning how to. Because they didn't really teach you in school how to run a clinic. Like they teach you how to be a chiropractor, not a business owner. How to do the daily operations, things within a practice.

And so I find it crazy how many you guys over there will set up your own thing like when you graduate. It's like you want to learn to be a chiropractor and an entrepreneur at the same time. Like those are both full time jobs with steep learning curves. Yeah, yeah.

But I figured that out within about two, two months while he was gone. I kind of learned, you know, how to do those things.

Yeah, you kind of throw it in the deep end there if it's. And it's someone else's practice. So it's like I kind of got to do all this now.

Yeah, yeah. It was an invaluable experience. I'm glad that, I'm glad that I had it, but I'm also glad that I wasn't stuck there for long.

Yeah, yeah. It's funny, I tell my, my team this, I nothing like that, but when I graduated, I was supposed to be taken over a chiropractor who was going on maternity leave. So she'd been scaling down to about 50 a week. And I was going to take that and build up and I hadn't even got my license through yet. I was going to spend a few days shadowing her while it came through. And the first day I show up and like the whole team's gathered around the front desk and they're like, oh, can they cover? No, they, they're full. Oh, no, they can't. And they looked at me and they're like, have you got your license? Like, no. Do you think you could get it by 1pm today? Because the other clinic, there was one chiropractor. Then she was like fully booked, 140 a week all the time. She just had to go to hospital. And literally I was like calling up like the gcc, like our board being like, here's the situation. I know you've got all the paperwork. Is there any chance we could squeeze it through? And I got the call at midday saying, you've got your license, good to go. 1pm, first patient walks into my room and that was two weeks of like fully booked back to back. And it was like, like, open the file. Okay, what did they do? I'm just going to do that again. Okay, next file. And yeah, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I tell my team we're never going to do that, but boy, am I glad I did it. Yeah, it's a great thing to have done in the past. Like, I'm glad past me put up with that, but currently doesn't have to deal with it. So you kind of had like an even bigger version of that if you had like. So you haven't, like, run the practice to a degree then.

Yeah, I think the. I had the same situation though, where I hadn't received my license yet either. So I want to say first week or two, they had to bring in another doctor who had the license. And basically, you know, I could do the exams and X rays and history and some of those things, but when it came to the actual hands on manipulation, we had to let him do that. But the same thing kind of happened as soon as my license got pushed. They're like, all right, we're sending him back home, it's your show now. But yeah, it was an incredible learning experience.

Yeah. So you're there for about 18 months and then you've realized, okay, this isn't for you, this other job's come up. And what was the kind of difference that you noticed there then? What made this, what made you think, okay, I got it wrong before, this job wasn't for me, but this looks different. What was kind of jumping out to you there?

Well, the contract, you could already tell, was written more for an employee. There are a lot more provisions and benefits included. I think this is when I started receiving either a stipend or it was covering my malpractice, my continuing education, you know, vacation time, stuff like that. And there, there was a ton of mentorship there too. Like I said, in just that one year that I was there with him, I feel like my clinical skills and treatment skills just exponentially increased and it was pretty clear clinic when you're going to work. But yeah, it was just a much, much better situation and the pay was automatically better than what I was making at the other place because it wasn't, it wasn't a percentage. It was similar to what I have now where there's a mix of like a, a base salary plus a, you know, commission based bonus on top bonuses.

But yeah, hitting certain numbers and stuff. Yeah, yeah. So we got, it was very clear that it was employed contract. Yeah, there was no kind of trying to have your cake and eat it too on their part. Just general clear communication and then mentorship as well.

Yeah, yeah.

Tell me about the mentorship. How, how was, what was that like? Kind of, you know, how much were you getting? How did that differ to what you'd had before?

Well, it was basically, you know, in the beginning while I was building up my patient schedule, wasn't busy so he would have me, he would even like pick out. We had like a calendar and everything. I think he used one of the breakthrough coaching group maybe a little bit. We kind of went through some of those things where they had like each day of the week there was something you kind of wanted to focus on. So I did some of that. And you know, there was, you know, one day we'd go and we would do more manipulation. One day we'd go and we'd do more, you know, physiotherapeutic modalities, certain learn new exams. You know, I would just come in and watch him treat a patient. If I didn't have anybody, I could just go kind of shadow him and see how he went, see how he went through treatment of these, you know, maybe some more rare conditions, more complicated sports related conditions, things I was interested in. Learn how to tape, learn how to cup learned, learn how to do some soft instrument assisted soft tissue stuff. You know, things that got just a taste of in school but you know, hadn't really used a whole lot in practice.

Yeah, yeah. So this was. So you've got shadowing him, you've got he. It sounds like he. This coaching program that's like resources you can go, like videos you can watch and stuff like that, that he's, he's paid for and provide for you. And then was there like one to one time discussing things as well on top of that was that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I mean how, how many, how much contact did you have, say the average week when you were starting out. How much time were you spending kind of with him versus like on your Only the treatment patients or, or doing your own learning. I mean, memory test, I think.

Yeah, that's been a few years. It would surprise me if it was pretty close to 50, 50 in the beginning. I mean, honestly, because he had another associate there at the time, he was eventually going to transition out. So I kind of started taking over some of his patients eventually. But in the beginning it was pretty slow as far as me, one on one, hands on patients. So it was probably pretty close to 50, 50, me working on patients and me spending time with him or with the other doctor, the other associate. I might not have been with the owner of the clinic, but I kind of bounced back and forth between those two.

So you were able to shadow the other associates as well? I mean, were they coaching you as well or were you kind of. You'd come in to observe then?

I wouldn't really say they approached it as coaching. I tried to treat it that way. I think he and I were around the same age and probably around the same experience level. I don't. He may have had maybe one more year in practice on me, I'm not sure. So it was, it was more of a peer colleague type of conversation, kind.

Of, hey, I'm stuck on this case. What would you do here? Kind of like that, back and forth, right?

Asking each other questions. And I would kind of show him some things that I, I thought might help him in his, you know, approach to certain conditions or issues.

How valuable would you say that was? We. Because obviously the kind of mentoring from, from your boss that's, you know, that's kind of invaluable. You've got somebody who's got a ton more experience than you've been doing this for a long time, especially the level where they're at with sports. But how is, how big a deal is it for you that you've also got other peers who may be on coaching you, but you can, you can go back and forth and you can ask for help.

I, I think that's great because I found when I was in school, when I started, we have a motion palpation institute over here. I think you might be familiar with the nbi. Yeah. Club on campus, where we would meet outside of classroom hours and learn how to motion palpate and set up for adjustments, do different manipulations, different, you know, we get some CE's and stu stuff. And I took over that club down at the Florida campus for my school before I transferred up to the Illinois campus. And I found that when I started teaching people these things, you know, Even while still in school. That was another benchmark in my. I guess this would technically still be my educational career, but where my skills went from, you know, here to there. Just that, that being able to.

It forces you to know something if you're going to teach it, doesn't it?

Exactly.

It's kind of how I got involved in the communication stuff as well. Like, it really made me learn it. Um, because you can't. You can kind of fool yourself, you know, something, but you can't fool other people.

Right.

So.

Yeah.

Okay. That was kind of the next thing I was going to ask, really. So we've got. There's a number of things there in terms of situations to look out for, things to look at the contracts, you know, how to know a good opportunity versus not so good an opportunity, how to work out if it's a good fit. If we change gears a little bit. Like what, what are you say, some of the, some of the things you did, or maybe some of the, the things you focus on that have allowed you to be as successful as you have been in associate. Like, we've got the external situation. What about the internal stuff?

I. I always try to keep good relationships, obviously with, with my employer. You know, anytime I have a question about a case, I'm. I'm questioning whether or not I should approach it this way or order imaging or, you know, do these things. I'll go ask him. But then also with the staff, especially at the current office, I feel like me, I probably have a close relationship with the staff there than my boss does, just because he's busier than I am. He's handling all the administrative stuff and seeing more patients than I am. So I have. And I sit in a place where I'm more out in the open and I kind of interact with the staff more. Yeah, that's one thing I feel like has really helped me grow and I gain that respect and rapport with not just the people that I'm working on, but the people that I'm working with. But that's been a huge difference here too. And I've kind of felt that way looking back now. Even at the previous location, I felt like I had kind of a. A closer relationship with the, with the staff there. So. And I've even asked him at some point sometimes, like, you know, if there's any. Anything you want me to do to help clear up things with the staff. You know, since I feel like we've got a, you know, a pretty good relationship, just let me know. Like, we can Kind of triple downstream. You know, if there's something that you want to. Want me to try to instruct them on or help them with or anything that you want me to take over as far as, like, staff meetings, you know, just trying.

You're going to your employer saying, hey, if you'd like to hand me a bit of responsibility around this, this is something I feel I could help with.

Yeah, absolutely. Just to kind of myself as more someone who's more in value, more valuable than just an employee, just an associate. Like, that's one thing he and I've always talked about opportunity for a partnership eventually, or buying into or buying him out of the practice eventually. So, you know, after. After three or four years, now, five years here, I keep trying to find ways to show that I have the skills and abilities to, you know, start taking some of those responsibilities.

Yeah, I think that's. That's a really. I want to really underscore that. I think that's a key point is that, you know, I've said this to new brands and associates before who have, like, been struggling and felt like. Felt like they're not getting what they should or if they might negotiate, like a pay rise or something like that. And I'm like, if you can make yourself invaluable to the clinic, you know, it doesn't have to be this antagonistic thing, but it's like, if you want to, like, earn more, you need to be more valuable. Like, you can. You know, I say to my team here, I want you all to be so good that I couldn't afford to be without you.

Right?

And then, guess what? You're going to be rewarded that way as well. It's. If you can look for those opportunities. I think many, many of us especially think newer practices. You know, there's a lot going on. It's overwhelming your first couple of years anyway, but there's a tendency to kind of, like, sit and wait for things that you expect instead of going like, okay, how can I be a bit proactive here? Or, like, you know, I had a great chat with a couple of my team members the other day. They were, you know, wanted to make some changes and shifts and some admin, stuff like that. And they actually apologized because they were saying, like, you know, we have been really trying to, like, work out and find a solution because we didn't want to just come to you with a problem. It's just we couldn't find one that works. Which to me was like, okay, they got it. Like, you know, the fact that they couldn't find a solution is fine. But it's the fact they didn't just come to me and be like, hey, here's a problem and I want you to fix it, right? Even if they come up with a terrible solution, then I'm like, no, that would not work at all. The fact that, you know, you're looking for ways that you can contribute, you're looking for something you can do to go, this is something I'd like to change. But here's a way I thought that could do that. It's that, that kind of shared responsibility of the practice. I think that, that always, to me, really impresses me in somebody when they're. Especially if they're fairly new as well. They've only been out a few years. So I think that's a really, really key point. It's just looking for ways you can conjure. It doesn't mean, here's how I can do a load of work for free. Or you should be, you know, taking over, like, you know, a lot of clinics. I say, oh, the associate, hey, you're young. You should, like, manage the social media. It's like some of them, yeah, like one, one of ours, she's good at that. She does a great job with it. But others, it's like, no, that's not. That's not the same skill set as being a chiropractor. That's not what they tried to study for. So if you've got somebody who wants to, great, but that doesn't mean you should look for stuff outside of your scope. Would you say, like, if you, presumably you. You've spoken to, like, peers and like, people you study with and things like that. And I imagine you have heard stories of people who haven't had the same experience you have, like, who have. Maybe they had a bit of an easier start or whatever, but they haven't got to the point where you're at now where you've got a really good position, it's going really well, you get on really well, and, you know, you're earning a comfortable income from that. You're not like, oh, it's just okay, but I need to sort of make sure I make it each month. Presumably you've. You've kind of spoken to people who are more of that boat, who are maybe struggling a bit. And what would you say? Is there what's different about you versus versus those people? Like, if we think, like, in terms of, like, characteristics or things that you exhibit. I'm not asking you to, like, label anyone and like we said, external situation, a big role. But is there anything you think? Yeah, this is something that's a little different about me. And I think that's why I've been able to be more successful.

Well, I think the reason you and I have connected so well is because I value communication and I'm very much a social butterfly. So I just meet people, talk to people and make connections every way possible. And I'm a very, I'm an only child. I don't know if that's what's made me a very competitive person. But I've always been very competitive. I've never really given up on anything that I've, you know, yes, I've failed, you know, a couple of times. But how do I turn that into a lesson to, you know, do, do it better the next time? And I would say, you know, I. There, there's a fair amount of luck, I would say, in this maybe, you know, the fact that I ended up back in my hometown so automatically being from this area brought patients to the practice. You know, I grew up going to like three different churches in town. I've got my family and friends here. I've also put myself back out into the community. I'm on the board of directors for a local nonprofit foundation and very involved with that. And you know, it's like you said, it's not some of the external things, you know, outside of the practice, but also, I mean, I really do. When I'm in the room with that patient who's on my schedule at that point in time, that's the only person that matters to me right then. And they can see that. And when they see that and I communicate with them, get them the results they're looking for quickly and just build up more of a, more of a personal relationship. I like to get to know my patients for more than just the problems that they're coming to me for. And especially in this region, people, when they trust you, they'll do anything for you. It's here in the south in the U.S. people like, of the people like them in this area. So being from this area, it makes them very comfortable with me. And I just, I get referrals from patients all the time. You know, we don't really spend a lot of money. I don't remember the last time we paid for like a Facebook ad or any type of like marketing. I mean, it really is. Our practice is basically a referral based practice and I have at least have at least two or three new patients on my schedule. Like every single day. Um, I've had some weeks where I've had like 20 new patients in one week. So. And that's, that's not, not really doing any marketing. So I find that, you know, being a personable person, like you said, you can teach clinical skills, you can't teach personality. So I feel like that that's thing is, you know, being personable, being respectful, listening and encouraging, and then, you know, putting yourself out in the community, it can be a little more difficult for introverted clinicians. You know, not everyone has that, you know, inclination to go out and make connections with people. But I find that that's probably been, I mean, every job that I've got has been because of a connection, not because of, you know, I looked at an ad or, you know, I had somebody contact me. I actually, I was the one that got out there and did the, you know, contacting and connecting and, and following those leads.

You're not, you're busy creating opportunities. You're not sort of waiting for opportunities to come along and grab those. It's because you mentioned luck. And it always reminds me of this phrase that luck is where opportunity meets preparedness.

Right?

It's like, you know, it's like you kind of like create. There was a show, I remember this as a kid years ago, they compared a really lucky person to a really unlucky person. And they basically showed that the lucky person, like it was even something simple. Like when they were walking down the street, they were looking around and a little trip where they left like a 50 pound note just off to the side. And the lucky person looking around, they see it, they go, oh, I've just found like £50. That's great. And the unlucky person, they film them and they're like kind of looking down at the floor and they went right past it. And they played them both the tape and the unlucky one was like, huh, okay, I need to rethink this. Maybe me being unlucky, it's like maybe I have some role in that. Like, you know, opportunities will come along. Like you say it's being in your hometown that's an advantage. But even then, that's it. That it sounds like that's given you like a bit more of a foot in the door and a bit more of a fast track. So you're already embedded in some communities, but you haven't gone. I knew people from childhood, so they're coming in, you've gone out and gone. Right. How can I get involved in the community now? Which presumably if this wasn't your hometown, you could still go out and do that. Might take a little bit more. You might have to kind of get the lay of the land, spend a bit more time networking at the start. But I think, yeah, if you can get involved in the community so people know you as a person, not just a chiropractor, and you're right, you're out there meeting other people, then naturally, you know, this comes up in FTCA all the time from the older docs. They're like, yeah, like I get referrals from people who like just knew me because I went to church with them or they knew me because, yeah, I'm on the board of this thing or a member of the local Lions club, whatever it might be. Like, that's a really good source of referrals without you saying, hey, you need to like learn to stand up in front of a group and give her a, deliver a talk on how chiropractic can help sports injuries or elderly people or whatever. I mean, yeah, extroverts like you and me are going to have an easier time with that. But that doesn't have to be the way you go about it.

I think.

And it's true, I think, I think you're right. In introverts it can be a little, it's a bit more out of their comfort zone. But having said that, I would say that we've got. Some of my team are introverts and with introverted patients, they like, they just click. They're just like, oh, someone who's on my level, that kind of one to one interaction, you know, I might cover their patients and I could like, if I'm not careful, bowl and be like, hey, I'm Chris, a massive extrovert. Like, okay, like, I'm used to a bit of a calmer approach. So, you know, I think it's not. I often hear people talk about, oh, it's just easy being an extrovert chiropractor. And it's like, well, there's, there's definite advantages. And I would say on the whole probably it is, but you know, I'm massively biased because I am one. And we're going to have a biased conversation because we both are. We'd like that to be true. But I think there's definite advantages to introverts. It's just the, I don't know, maybe, maybe the introverts who realize that aren't out on social media shouting about it. That might be why it's not so obvious. There but yeah, it sounds like it's that and there's the kind of dedication it sounds like that's like an underlying theme for this. You've gone out to look for things, you've put in the work. You haven't sort of sat back and waited for things to land in your lap.

Thing.

Is that something that you've always kind of had or is that something that you've put a conscious effort into?

I feel like it's, it's been there to some degree pretty much my whole life. But definitely, I think during that first position where I, I had to go out and work for all these things, you know, try to, try to build up my patient schedule, get out there and, and, and, and market myself and do those uncomfortable talks that you can tell no one's paying attention to. It definitely makes it easier to do those things when you get the positive reinforcement from it though, you know, when, when you actually finally start seeing some of the fruits of your labor. And that's the hard part, I think that's the hard part for associates nowadays, or even when I was graduating is, you know, we kind of come from a generation where we just kind of expect things to happen or we've gotten used to a lot of things being given to us. And I mean, I think it took me, I think it took me three years in my current position. So that would have been what, five, almost six years in practice, finally hit six figure mark, you know, and two, two failed positions. But once I, once I found, and that's the thing too, is like that I encourage young associates, like, don't give up if you're at a place where you're not happy, you know, try to try to make it better between you and your employ year. Start looking for something that automatically looks like a better situation, a better environment. Because once I got here, like I said it was with those three years, it was, it was like steady from, from year one, year two, year three. I mean it's, it's continued, you know, all the way through year five.

But the other thing as well, to push back on that a little bit is you're not coming in at the same level. You've got a, you've got a couple of years experience at that point. Like, you know, it's over here in the uk, there's, there's a shortage of chiropractors. Like, there's more job ads out than there are chiropractors graduating all the time. Since Brexit as well, we have a lot of international students from Europe. And they used to come over, graduate, spend a few years working here before they went back home. Now we're out of the eu, they, they're going home right afterwards. So we don't, we don't have enough chiropractors. And that means that like, if you've got two years experience, it's like gold dust. Like you will have, you will have clinics falling over themselves. That two year difference, it's like, yeah, two year is five year, isn't ten year. But boy, those first two years, that's, that's the kind of steepest learning curve. And the, you know, the difference between, I mean, I sit in our associates, almost all of them. Yeah, all of them, bar one, have come to us from graduation. And like, I love sitting down with them in like January. You know, they've been practicing for like four or five months. Like remember where you were in August and where you're at now? They're like, yeah, that was a different person. Right? Yeah, that's the start of this slope. It makes such a difference going from there. But yeah, so having that kind of, I guess what you're saying there is patience. It's like, yes, look to see if you can make some changes. Don't wait for something to come along. Don't think it's just sitting back. Look for opportunities. Where can you make this work? I've seen choreographers where they've been really unhappy in a job, but it turns out they just needed to really have a few maybe slightly uncomfortable but important conversations with their boss. And then it works really well. It doesn't immediately mean, oh, I've been here six months and I'm not happy and I'm not making the average chiropractors income having come straight from uni. Obviously I should quit and find another one. Right. And it's tricky, I think over here. It's a little tricky because they know there's quite a lot of jobs. It's easier to hop around jobs because the grass is always greener and there's always something else out there that looks a bit better. And yeah, sometimes it takes two or three of them hopping around to go, okay, maybe changing the job isn't what I need to change here. Maybe there's something else. Okay, so I mean, what advice would you give if you, let's say you were talking to a newer chiropractor there? You know, they've been out a couple of years, they're, they're doing all right, but they're kind of struggling. They're not really finding, like you said, if having a talk with their boss is probably something that might be worth doing there. Is there any advice you'd give? Let's say that they are in a job that could work, but it's not quite working for them, like some changes they could maybe make or things to consider in their current position.

I think that's where groups like the Forward Thinking Chiropractic alliance really come in. A lot of times even, even as an associate, you work in a clinic with another doctor, but they're so busy you don't really see them or talk to them very often. So I know a lot of they call themselves lone wolves where they're their own doctor, their own office, they're the only one there and they feel very isolated. So I think that building this is another thing connecting to community, building that community around you, finding a community if you don't have one. And I encourage everyone, you know, get plugged into the FTCA and, and find the, those of us who are, you know, very involved in there and just reach out to people, you know, ask questions, you know, see other doctors who, if you see them commenting on how they've been through, what you've been through, but they're where you want to be now. Ask them how did you get there? You know, to ask like, man, you found a really awesome associate position. Like, what's that? Like, how did you get there? So I think that's the big thing is, you know, reach out to peers, colleagues, maybe doctors who are a couple, two or three years further ahead in practice than you are and just build up that community around you so that way you don't feel isolated because even in office with another doctor, you can still feel like a lone wolf. So that's, that's where FTCA was a huge part of. I think my to good continuing education seminars to actually make yourself a better clinician. You know, that's, that's another way to add value to yourself for your employer too is, you know, go out there and don't go to your state convention where it's just a bunch of useless information that's not going to improve.

Not going to be able to go.

Back in clinic on Monday and be a better doctor because of this lecture you sat through. You know, go, go learn some new clinical skills. And yeah, I just, just, you know, make your, make yourself as valuable as possible. Kind of going back to what we do earlier is, I mean we, yes, we have a ton of skills and knowledge coming out of school, but there are a Lot of ways after that to continue adding value to yourself for your practice. If you want to open it up yourself or to your employer to pay you fair, you know, if they want to hire you on as an associate.

Yeah, because here's the really cool thing, right? You invest yourself. It's like, well, no one sees a better return on that investment than you do.

Right?

Like that's an investment that's going to pay off. If you're at the start of your career, that's going to pay off for 40 years. Like that's, that's huge. Yes. You go and work for somebody else, they'll get some of the benefits of that too. But not nearly as much as it will pay off for you for the whole career. I wanna, I wanna underline that plug for FTCA as well because there's, I'm aware some people like watching this might not be aware of that. So FTCA is forward thinking chiropractic alliance. It's, it's a separate membership as well. But there's a big group on Facebook. There's about what, about 10, 000 Cairos in there. That, that for me, I found you guys like what, six, seven years ago, like literally I, I, right when I started coaching actually. And that was one of the first groups that I was like, okay, this is, this is a really like active, vibrant group. You know, there's a lot of, there's a lot of disagreements. You'll get conflicting opinions in there. But that's great because you don't get, you don't get a lot of the group think, you don't get a lot of that. We all say the same thing because we all believe the same technique.

That's.

Yeah. So I would, I would definitely. I realized some of the youngsters will think we're old for talking about Facebook. It's worth having the Facebook account for. I think it's. And like you say, it's a really great place to not realize that, you know, to realize you're not alone. Because I, that isolation I've had because I do, I do a lot of mentoring with the Royal College of Chiropractors as well. So not just like folks who hire me or folks who work for me, but most the UK graduates I'll have some kind of contact with, whether it's a webinar or two or something. And a lot of them will reach out through that and say like, hey, you know, I'm struggling. And the isolation I think is huge. That's one of the most common themes I Hear is, and they might be working somewhere, they might be working for someone else, but they're like passing ships in the night or they're just. A lot of the time, I think clinic owners, it's easy for us to forget what it's like to be a new graduate and what it's like to only been out a few years there. And we are, frankly, this is my little sob story for clinic owners, where it's like, I'll think about us, but we're that busy with running it, and if there's several people involved in the business where we're making sure the whole team's working together, make sure everyone's happy, make sure the patients are happy, you know, we're doing the books, we're looking at the admin side of stuff. We're treating our own patients as well. And it's. It's really easy for us to sometimes forget that this, this associate that I got. Just because they're not coming to me with something doesn't mean they need some help. I think too many of us fall into the habit of being like, look, man, open door policy, anything you want, message me anytime, but if you don't message me, I'm going to assume everything's fine. And that's not good. I really try and take an active role to go. Let me be proactive and check in with them and make sure stuff's okay. But I think a lot of us as clinicians, we're keeping so many plates spinning, we can forget about that element there. Which just means that a, like, go and have that chat. If somebody comes to me with a problem, I'm always like, oh, thank God I didn't not know about that. But so there's that element that, you know, it's where I'm trying to let us all off the hook, but I'd like to think we could do a better job with that. But, yeah, having that input from. And like, you know, we've been chatting for a couple of years now. Like, this is the closest we've ever come to meeting. This is our first, like, live conversation. I don't know if you knew Rob Pape. He was one of the mods back in the day, this guy's mentor of mine for, like, well, pretty much since I joined ftca, like six, seven years now. Never met him. He's had the biggest impact on my entire career. He's, like, made such a difference to all these things. I've learned. Never, like, we've chatted on Zoom. Never met the guy in person. Like, it's. It's. It's amazing the way you can just connect people, like, other side of the world now. So, yeah, I think that's. That's a really, really big one, actually. Like, you say, go out and just find other people. It doesn't mean you have to put a post in a group of 10,000 people, be like, hey, I'm struggling and I'm freaking out, and the imposter syndrome is getting the better of me. But just hanging out in the group, I think seeing the conversations, if you can realize that you're not alone, that, oh, it's not just me struggling with this unique burden, I think that goes a long way to go. Okay, well, maybe it's not like, you know, the end of the world. Maybe I might be all right there. So we've covered quite a bit this already. I mean, would you say there's any other, like, mistakes that maybe not like, right when they graduate, but, you know, folks who've been out, say, two, three, four years, are there any kind of common themes you see there of, like, mistakes they might make or things? You're like, yeah, a lot of people tend to do this and they don't realize that it might not go the way they want.

I would say at that point, you know, that's. That's probably when the burnout starts to set in. You know, you're. You're getting busier, but you may not still be making the amount of money that you want to make or need to make. You're kind of hitting that point where you feel confident enough to maybe go run the practice, even though you've never tried that. I think some have maybe left after two or three years and tried that and seen that. Okay, this is way more than, you know, I thought that it was, and then.

And I'm not making that much more money. I think that's. Oh, it turns out that that other, like, 50, 60% that my employer is keeping, that's not just going into their bank account. Like, oh, they've got overheads and stuff.

Yeah, I. I think that's probably the big one to watch out for. And. And who's to say, like, I. I don't know if. If I would ever end up leaving this practice to go try to run, you know, my own own thing. There. There have been some times where I was like, I'd like to do this a little bit differently than my employer or, you know, may have disagree, like, serious, but. But then I sit back and I was like, you know, what though? Like, I'm making a really good livable wage here. I get to treat my patients. Do my notes, get paid. Like he had like plumbing and H vac and, and staffing. We had people quit. You had to find new employees and like that I don't have to worry about any of that stuff. So there, there's definitely, I think there's.

A lot to be said for that, that I can go home and I'm at home because yeah, when once you run your own business, it's never off your mind.

Right.

Like it's not. Not that it's a disaster. You know, again, this isn't. I love it because I couldn't long term, I couldn't work for, for someone else if I did. Like, I, I'm a control freak. Like, I need that like freedom and autonomy and I will accept the significant risk and trust that goes with that. But that it's, it's not grass isn't always great. I also think like being, being a business owner is not for everybody. I think there's, there's a number of chiropractors who really, for their own long term quality of life would be better staying as an associate. Like maybe they need a better associate position. Maybe that could change. But there's, we kind of have this, this sort of myth in chiropractic that like the progression is like, you know, student and then you graduate and then you go be an associate or independent contractor and then you run your own practice and then you hire other people to work in that practice and the lone wolf guys kind of opt out part way. But I do think, which is the right move because not everybody, especially if you're an introvert, like managing a team is tough. That's a big drain there. And that doesn't mean you're necessarily well placed to do that in terms of your own skill set. But you know, some people opt out at being an associate and that can be completely the right move. We had a guy who was working for us for a few years and then he, he set up his own practice in London. So he started as he got busier there. He kind of dropped down with us. So he had this nice hand over and after a couple of years he, he dropped us a message to be like, hey, are you guys hiring? I hate this. I want to come be an associate. He was like, yeah, it's not worth the stress. Again, I sound like I'm trying to be like, oh, poor clinic owners. Like, it's not that. But yeah, being able to like Switch off at the end of the day and go like, okay, there's. There's no patient in the room with me and the notes are done. There's nothing to do. There's, you know, part of me misses that stuff. I look back at like, you know, younger Chris and I'm like, man, that was nice, wasn't it? You know, I wouldn't go back and trade it. But there's, there's a lot to be said for that, I think. And yeah, that there's not. It doesn't mean you have. This is like the hierarchy and if you don't go all the way to the top, you're like, you know, not, not living your best life or succeeding your potential as a chiropractor. So, okay, I think we've, we've got some stuff there. Definitely. The other. This is a little bit, a little bit of a tangent, but. Well, actually, no, you know, I want to explore the burnout thing a little bit more that you mentioned. Can you speak a bit more about that? Like, that's. The burnouts. Is that something you've experienced, have you seen with others, or that kind of like, like you say three, four year mark, where it starts to kick in?

I think the only reason I experienced that was just the. Because I think this was, I mean, this was like my third job within three years that the biggest burnout for me was feeling like I would, I would build something up and then I'd have to go restart somewhere else and then build something, go restart somewhere else. So that would be my biggest thing too. As, as why? To try your best to find the best associate position, if this is what you want to do, to go find the best associate position, you know, first place. Because when you start somewhere and you feel like you're finally, finally accomplishing something, but then. And then determine that this is not the right place for you, it is really, really hard. I mean, it. I, I made myself sick both times. I had to like, quit. Even that first job where I was like, not making any money and pretty miserable. I still worry myself sick. I'm like, oh my God, like, where am I going to go? What am I going to do? Like, I don't. Am I going to have patience there? You know? And then when I reached a good point there, I'd finally grown in that year and I'm like, well, here I am. I don't like living where I'm living right now. It was a good clinic, good mentor, good experience, but I just didn't. My, My wife at the time, and I didn't want to be there anymore. So here I was again. I was like, well, damn, I'm pretty close to making what I feel like I'm worth. And now I'm going to have to go start over again somewhere else. So I feel like that. That constant restarting was. Was the biggest part of burnout for me. I think for a lot of the others, from what I've heard anyways, in conversation is. It's just. I feel like it's being overworked and underpaid, I think, is where a lot of the burnout comes from.

From.

From a lot of the associates I' or in ftca. I've had. I've lost count now. After people have seen my comments or my presentation, they sent me private messages on Facebook about, hey, you know, what do you think about this in my contract? Or just ask for advice or information. So I think it's probably those two things with having to feel like you're having to restart and rebuild over and over again, or just feel like you're being overworked and underpaid and underappreciated, undervalued. It's. It's. You were talking about the. The clinic owner being in communication with. With the employee, the associate, and my boss. I don't think it's quite monthly, maybe. Maybe closer to quarterly. But he'll ask me, he's like, hey, what are you doing Friday after work? And I was like, I don't have any plans. All right, let's go grab a pint and we'll. We'll go to the local breweries, we'll sit down and we'll talk about life. But we'll also, you know, he'll be like, before the end, we'll talk about, you know, clinic stuff. So it's nice to be able to sit back and unwind over a nice cold beer and still get some business talk done, too. So that helps with the burnout, just like. And getting that reassurance from your employer that, hey, I value you, you're here. I don't want to hire anybody else. And I feel like I've kind of met that expectation or exceeded it to the point where I think that I finally made myself an associate who. So valuable to the clinic at this point in time that he. It would be really silly for him to let me go at this point.

Yeah. Which gives you that sense of security. Like, okay, I know I'm doing a good job. And they've. They validated that well, like, right. Because I Think otherwise. Yeah, when you're an associate, it's, it's. I think that's a common fear is like this kind of. You're like, am I doing a good job? Am I good enough? Are they happy with me? Are they not happy with me? And I think, yeah, we don't always do the best job commute. You know, as a clinic owner, you know, when you're an entrepreneur, you're off. It's not like it's a total disaster, but you're often kind of going like, okay, you just like put one fire out and it settles down and another one pops up. So you're kind of used to like dealing with problems and like, manage this, manage that. And we're not always so great at going like, hey, this thing's going really well. Why don't I tell that person that? What? I let them know, by the way, you're doing a great job here. And I, I certainly, I try to do that. Like, I talk about imposter syndrome a lot with or with any grad I can, frankly. So I'll never forget one. One time we had a. We had a couple of new associates join the team and it was our Christmas party and my business partner Paulie is next door. We all, we all went next door. We did this every year, had like a big party and drinks, all that kind of stuff. And it's about. Because we got two clinics and partners came. So I know there's about 40 people there. And I'm chatting to somebody. I don't remember who I was talking to in the moment, but I just hear like my wife yell my name in that tone that is like, oh, I might be in trouble here. This wasn't like a, hey, Chris. It's like a, Chris, get over here. And she's talking to these two associates and I come over and she's looking at me like, you didn't tell them? Like, what do you mean? She's like, you didn't tell them about your imposter syndrome? And I was looking at them like, oh, didn't I? They're like wide eyed, like, no. Like, did you feel. I'm like, yeah, no, of course. Like, nearly everyone feels like that. Like, yeah, I struggle with that stuff that. She's like, you tell them this. They've been freaking out thinking there's something wrong with them. And I've just told them that, yeah, you had that too. And they didn't know. They've been here like nearly a year. And they were like, I had no idea. I Was like, oh, okay, I think I've messed up. Like, so now I'm like, I want to like, drill that in. Like, yep, I've had it too. Like, let's just kind of like normalize it a little bit. Because otherwise. Yeah, it's. It's when you're starting out, it's that feeding of everyone. And especially with social media, like, you know, mo, like, not. Not necessarily like in specific groups, but like, we're con. We're confronted with people all the time, talk, doing awesome things, doing amazing stuff, not even chiropractic, but like, so much of what we take in is people doing incredible stuff that it sort of sets the bar. Like, that primary part of our brain of like, where's my status in the tribe? Is like, well, most of the people I see are really awesome, so I must be terrible. And if I could really become awesome, I might be average.

It's.

It's totally unnatural compared to like, you know, what we evolved for. It's like those small communities, you only had to be like, good at what? Better than, like, you know, the 50, 60 people at one thing and you were an expert and like, that was it. And I think that that's something that's even harder nowadays with all the stuff working from. I'm going on my anti social media rant here, but join the FTCA Facebook group because we're honest. I say we. I'm not even involved. I just love. But. But yeah, I think it is that it's that kind of like normalizing the struggle and the grind a little bit as well. That, like, that is. That is part of it and you're not necessarily alone. Anyway, I'm going off a little bit of a tangent there. I'm aware of the time so that we've probably wrapped things up a little bit. Couple of the quick questions I wanted to ask. This one's kind of. It's related a little bit to the burnout. And I think the stress here is how do you like, go about managing that sort of work. Work life balance? Because I think for many chiropractors, it's. It's easy for us to get like, all about the work. You know, I, I'm a workaholic in recovery for about 10 years. Like, it's. It's so easy, I think, to. To mismanage that balance. How do you go about trying to, like, keep on top of that?

Well, here in particular, I'm prioritizing taking more time off. You know, I just took that last week, the whole week off exploring new places. You know, we have two massage therapists in our clinic so I take advantage of that. I try to every month get my getting a massage from one of the massage therapists. If, if I find a time where my boss and I aren't with a patient, I get my monthly adjustment from him as well too. So I, you know, I, I preach maintenance care to my patients and I try to practice it for myself as well. And then, you know, getting out and getting involved in the community, spending plenty of time with, with family, friends, taking advantage of the weekends. You know, I was working Saturdays and I finally got those off this year. So now, you know, I fully take advantage of that. You know, having two full days off in a row, trying to get outside, get out in nature, church thing for me, you know, I try to find anything that fills my cup up because you probably know this too as an extrovert and so especially an extrovert in, in a healthcare profession where it's literally hands on. You're pouring into people all day long, you know, taking care of other problems. I, I've, I've just tried to find every way possible to try to, to fill my cup back up, you know, and that's. Do, do the things you enjoy, man. If you don't, if you don't feel like you have time for it, you just have to start making time for.

It because yeah, you won't find the time. You got to make the time, I think.

Yeah, yeah. So that's the big thing, you know, getting out in nature, you know, staying close with my family and friends and once again it's just having that support group and I'm very blessed with a very, very loving, very tight knit family, A close group of friends that are always checking in on me, a good group of peers and mentors. So yeah, I think that's how you know, because, because there's always going to be more work to do. There's always going to be stuff that you can say yes to. And that's one thing I'm trying, I'm still trying to learn how to say no. That' that's a big one that I struggle with. So I do not know how to say no. And no period is a complete. You don't have to explain why you don't want to. Can't do something.

No.

Well, yeah, no, no, no, no. Thank you. So that's one like you said, workaholic in recovery. I'm a yes man in recovery and I don't think I've quite made it.

Into recovery for that. I think recovery is a journey rather than a destination. Like I'm never not going to get pulled in certain things. I think so. Is he talking? It sort of occurred to me. I think the one kind of theme we could say runs through this whole thing is like connection.

Yeah.

In terms of like filling your cup up. It's like connecting with friends and family, connecting with church, connecting with your community, like, you know, connecting with yourself, making sure you're staying in touch with your own body, taking care of yourself, you know, physically as well there. And you know, making sure you connected with your employer. If there's, if there's some miscommunication there, restore that connection. Get connected with other chiropractors with FTCA group, getting to know other people. Yeah, it's, it's. I was just thinking that as you said it. Okay. I think if we can put this whole conversation in one word, it's probably connection there, which is cool because I don't know about you, but that, that confirms like all my biases. That, yeah. Resonates.

And luckily for me, giving fulfills me. Like that's, I love giving of my time, my energy, my expertise, my skills. So thankfully, you know, even, even in the hard times in life, like actually there have been times where work was my happy place and actually I preferred to be there than other places. That's where I felt like I was doing what I was created to do. And you know, you, especially when you, when you reach that point to where you're really, you've really kind of honed in on your clinical skills, you've honed in on your communication skills, you're really connecting with your patients and you're helping them get better faster. You get that it's like the instant gratification that we're always looking for. So if I can get in there and I can help somebody else get what they want, that's actually, that's what I want too. So that's, that's a big thing. That's kind of a dichotomy in the US with the chiropractic is we have these like ultra passionate chiropractors who are like borderline religion that we kind of shun.

But then we've got, you send something to us as well. We get, we get them over here.

And we've got evidence based group though who are like, it's almost like it's bad to be passionate about, you know, So I feel like there's, there's a, there's a, there's like, I think a.

Lot of the evidence base, it can go the route of like teenage atheist. Like, oh, like that's all stupid and rubbish and like anyone who's passionate about anything, they just like sit and wait for things that you expect instead of going like, okay, how can I be a bit proactive here? Or like, you know, I had a great chat with a couple of my team members the other day. They were, you know, wanted to make some changes and shifts and some admin stuff like that. And they actually apologized because they were saying like, you know, I'm trying to sell you something. It's like, yeah, like some, you know, cynicism is not always unwarranted, but it's, it's not a great philosophy of life. I think if you do that all the time. I put a post out of that recently and it's definitely a few people I've seen like, okay, you feel like I'm talking to you personally here. We have been really trying to like work out and find a solution because we didn't want to just come to you with a problem. It's just we couldn't find one that works. Which to me was like, okay, they got it. Like, maybe. Listen, maybe. Really? Anyway, I'm getting sidetracked there. Yeah, but you know, the fact that they couldn't find a solution is fine, but it's the fact they didn't just come to me and be like, hey, no, definitely. I think the. Well, I guess I think that's, that's a really good point. And I think that's, that's true, like not to be afraid of the passion, not be kind of like too swayed by one way either side there here's a problem and I want you to fix it.

Right.

They might even if they come, I guess like the last question I wanted to ask, like, what. So what's, what's next for you? What do you like, not even like career wise, but like, is there anything you're thinking, oh yeah, you know, this year, next year, I kind of want to focus on that or you know, is there anything you'd like to kind of like particular goals you might have further in the future at the minute?

Oh, I think this year, Chris, you know a bit more about my personal situation right now. This year's just survived.

Bit of stability and yeah. Consistency.

But no, I mean, I've become really comfortable here, you know, and I.

The terrible solution that I'm like, no, that would not work at all.

The fact that I've continued to see growth over the years. So I want to try to find ways to continue.

You know, you're looking ways that you can contribute, you're looking for something you can do to go, this is something I'd like to change. But here's a way I thought that could do that growing.

You know, I don't hit that point where, you know, I, I don't feel like I'm, I'm doing more, doing enough, getting better. But yeah, like I said, I think this year, this year is going to be a big year where I thought.

It'S that, that kind of shared responsibility of the practice. I think that, that always to me.

More on me than on work and practice and chiropractic patients or whatnot. Like when I'm in the room with that patient, that's all that matters. But when I'm outside that room, I'm trying to find ways to kind of focus more back on me. So it's a big thing this year is I want to, I want to travel more, I'm going to have more time and, and hopefully for money to do that. So I want to take advantage of that while I can.

UK is lovely in summer, right?

Yeah, I mean, bucket list. I definitely, I have, I haven't traveled outside of the country yet, so I need to make that happen for sure. If I do, I'm going to look you up and we'll try to maybe finally meet in person.

Yeah, definitely. I'd love that. That'd be great. Really impress me in somebody when they're, especially if they're fairly new as well. They've only been out a few years, so I think that's a really, really key point. It's just looking.

Yeah, so that's a big one. And then I think, you know, I still haven't picked up my continued education for this year, so I really need to get on that. But I'm thinking about maybe, maybe going into doing some dry needling something else like I was talking about earlier to.

The ways you can conjure it doesn't mean, here's how I can do a load of work for free. Or you should be, you know, taking over like, you know, a lot of clinics.

You know, add. Add more tools to my, my clinical skill set so that those are the big things is, you know, making sure I'm, I'm still growing in practice. But, you know, this is work, life, balance, keeping, keeping that under, under control. This, I think is going to be the main thing for me.

Yeah, I think it's a really good place to Wrap this up, actually, because I know that's. And again, my new graduates. I see that's. That's a lot is they kind of go all in on the work. I think, I think this might have been Bobby somebody in the group a while ago. They sort of said, like, advice for Negro was coming up. And they said, yeah, like, go back to your hobbies. Like that stuff you used to do that you loved when you were younger and you dropped because you got so serious about, like, university work and graduating. Like, go back to that now. Don't wait until you're burned out and you have to learn that the hard way.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I think having. Having that balance is. And it makes you a better chiropractor. Like, you will fundamentally be more present with your patients if you're filling your cup up on the weekends and taking breaks and stuff like that. You know, I've seen chiropractic where they're like, they're giving so much to their patients all the time, and it's like that car's running on fumes, man. Like, you haven't got a lot to give. Like, your patients aren't getting much out of you because you're not. You're not filling it up on the other side there. Brilliant. Well, that wraps us up. I really appreciate you taking the time for this as well. I wanted to do this for a little while. And, yeah, I think this is a really good conversation, really valuable for not just new graduates, but chiropractors like yourself who've been associate for a number of years now, and hopefully some clinic owners. This might give a little bit of an insight into the ways the associates you hire might struggle a little bit as well. Was there anything we didn't mention that you kind of. You wanted to throw before we went or. I know we covered quite a lot there, so maybe not.

Not that I can think of. I just, you know, I think the big thing is to try to be that was. I put it in one of the comments or one of the posts. I think you were. Who was it? If you love your job, leave advice. If you hate your job, ask a question.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

My big thing is just, you know, just try to be present in every day. If. When you're in the clinic treatment room with your patient, try to be present with them when. When you're outside of the office and not doing chiropractic stuff, try to be present with yourself. Present with your family, your friends, your loved ones, Present with nature and God, if that's important to you and then, yeah, communication, connection. So I know you've been great communicating with me and back and forth. So anybody who watches this and wants to reach out to me, you know, look me up on Facebook.

We can.

Connect that way and I'd be happy to answer any questions.

Yeah, brilliant. Thanks. I think it's a nice place to end it with the connection. So, yeah, what I'll do is we can look you up. I mean, definitely look up the FTCA group, I'd say, because you're a mod in there, aren't you?

Radical. Right now, I still get the notification, let people in, so they haven't completely kicked me out yet. Cool.

But you're pretty active in there, so people search, you know, your name, Dustin Houser in that group. They'll see as well. Yeah, and I think that's. That's really key, is if you got questions, you're struggling, just reach out. Like, you know, people can always know. They can reach out to me, they can reach out to you if they've got questions as well. Yeah, brilliant. All right, well, thanks again for time.

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