Ep 58| Geeting Your Swagger Back w Leslie Ehm #MUIYB Podcast

So Jeffrey Shaw's book— oh, and we're recording already, so— oh, so that's how I roll. So Jeffrey Shaw's book is coming out, uh, May 4th or 5th?

May 4th.

When's Swagger? Is Swagger out? Is this coming up pretty soon?

No, Swagger's out May, uh, May 10th. I'm right behind him. So one-two punch! We've been holding hands and skipping through this entire thing. I could not have survived the whole book launch thing Oh, without Jeff, how was that your journey in writing Swagger and preparing for its launch?

What's it been like?

It took me 3 years to write it, um, and not because I didn't have all the, the content and stuff. My mother got sick in the middle, so it, it was devastating for me. I, I lost my swagger in the process of writing Swagger, and which was a big eye-opener and of course impacted, you know, stuff that was in, that was in the book, um, later. But, um, I, I— the thing that I was the most concerned about was not the content, because I felt really rock solid. I mean, it was like 14 years of my life, kind of, you know, that I was able to pull from. The thing that I wanted to accomplish the most was holding on to my voice as a human, so the experience of reading the book would be the same as just hanging out with me. Yeah, that was the most important. Really hard to do. But I was— and I'm a writer. Sometimes it's harder when you're not a writer and you're trying to write a business book because you worry less about the writing and you worry more about the content. I wanted to do both. I wanted to focus on the writing and the book because I wanted it to feel like I was talking to you. That was the most important thing. So it took me a little while to kind of trust the— you know what it's like as a writer to trust the voice because you start writing and you're going, oh Jesus, I'm a freaking robot. What is— oh, this is bullshit. This is bullshit. I read it back and go, come on, this is— but I— this is not me. It's not me. It's not me. But once I found it, I found it, and I honestly, I just went, fuck it. This is not— I'm just— I'm just doing this. I'm just— I'm just speaking my truth. This is my swagger. This is what I'm gonna do. And I did it. And when I did that, it was like, it just barfed out of me. And the best thing ever is that when I finally could— and I waited, I didn't show it to anybody, I didn't ask for anyone's approval because I'm all about internal validation. I'm not about external validation. But when the time came that I did share it with people, whether it was my editor, you know, I had to share it with my editor and stuff, and her first comment to me was, oh my God, listen, this book is the exact same as talking to you. I was like, I cried, I cried and cried. And so many people have said the exact same thing.

I love—

so I'm good to go. It's my heart on a page.

Emotional cycle of I'm writing the best book ever, and then like, oh my God, I can't stand this book, I'm an idiot. That's how I feel about my own books.

Yeah, I didn't, I didn't feel like I was an idiot because it was like, it's like as the baby is emerging from your body— I've never birthed babies, I've adopted children, but whatever, but I assume so. So yes, I'm sure you could speak to this. When you're birthing babies You don't have like the head showing between your legs and you're going, I hate you. You're probably saying, I hate my husband putting me through this, but you're not saying I hate you. So I had mad love for the book because it was this thing unto itself. And I just didn't, I didn't judge it. I was so happy with how I felt about the process of it. 'Cause I said, if people read this book, I didn't get caught up in that crap. I just said, I know, that if people read this book, it could change their lives. Yeah, no, I know, I know, I know. I just kept saying over and over and over again, and if I get shitty reviews because someone didn't like it, I don't care. If someone says that my semantics were not a thing or they didn't like the number, amount of research, I'll be like, I don't care, it's not for you. Yeah, for those people who it's for, it's going to have the potential to change their lives. So I've had a love on for it. I just am so proud of it. I think it's a thing separate from me. It's a thing, it's its own It's swagger. It's my baby. It's a thing.

I love it. I just noticed I was on the wrong microphone. I was recording on the wrong microphone. So hopefully this is good.

That's why. That's why. Now I can hear you.

I can barely hear you because I had on the wrong mic.

So, um, I didn't want to call you out on anything. I just, I didn't want to call you out.

I feel like I'm so avant-garde. I'm like, oh, we're just recording. We're going live. I don't even have my shit set up. It's a total, it's a total clusterfuck is what really what it is.

I'm here for it. I'm here for it.

I love it. What is swagger? Like, define this for me.

So When people hear the word swagger, they think about this machismo, you know, gold chains, in-your-face, arrogant, strutting, peacocky thing. Nah, I have redefined, reclaimed, redefined. The way that I define swagger is the ability to manifest who you really are and hold on to it in the face of all of that psychological crap that's going to come for it, regardless of situation or environment. So you have one face, you are one integrated human, and you show up the same no matter what, no matter where, no matter with who. That is what swagger is.

Oh, I love it. I love it. So it's the ability to— the word, I know, authenticity is so freaking overused.

Yeah, I use that word very rarely in the book.

But it's self-integrity. I mean, it's integral to yourself in any circumstance.

Yeah, it's fucking truth. It's, this is me. This is me. And you know, you're going to like it or you're not going to like it. And that is fine. You do you, boo. Right? I do. That's my thing. It's you do you, boo, and I'm gonna do me. And if we don't have a little meshy meshy place in the middle, that's totally cool because we cannot be for everyone. Yeah, it's not possible. But I'm going to be driven by my truth, my intention, and my self-belief.

Are we de-swaggard though? So I remember in high school, you dress a certain way, your friends are like, oh my God, you're an idiot, you're a moron, look how you dress, you're not cool anymore. And The peer pressure is so great that you got to comply or die.

That never ends. That's the same when you, when you go to university. It's the same when you go to work. It's the same when you're in your social circles. It never fucking ends. Never. It's relentless.

You're out, your friends like, oh my God, the heat dress is like a total idiot.

And you know what? Why are those people your friends?

Because I like being called an idiot. Well, no, now I'm supposed to cry now, Barbara Walters?

Yes, yes.

So yeah, okay, so why are they my friends? That's a great point. You know, I feel like I have to be, uh, better or more significant. I'm trying to achieve something, perhaps. I'm feigning something, clearly. What's that? What's that psychological problem?

That's the problem. That's the problem, is that you're in the fake it till you make it. Why not you? But people who suffer from this are in the fake it till you make it paradigm, and they believe that if they can fake the thing that they wish that they were, that somehow magically they'll attain it, which is completely wrong, counterintuitive, bad. It's actually— I love hearing it's actually the, the opposite has been proven to be true. So here's, here's the thing. The thing that we're trying to fake is confidence, right? We want to have that feeling of self-assuredness and self-acceptance and all that good stuff, right? So we're trying to fake confidence. But the thing about confidence is it does not come from the outside. It is not something that happens as a result of perception. Confidence can only come as a result of competence. Only by doing something over and over and over again and proving to your resistant asshole brain— because that's what we all have— that you kind of have a baseline of I got this-ness. You know, I've done it enough times, you could throw me at a bunch of situations. Like if I said to you, so, Micah, I want to do a podcast, but I want to do it on a boat, are you good? You'd be like, yeah, fuck it, I'll figure it out. Hey, Mike, can you take your podcast and turn it into a TV show? Uh, 'Yeah, I, I probably could do that. I mean, I got baseline of stuff. I mean, I'd probably be okay.' So you can only gain true confidence as a result of competence, okay? So instead of faking it, do the work. Do the work. Accept where you are in your journey, because who's kidding who, everybody starts from a place of 'I don't know what the fuck is happening.' Every human on the planet starts from that place, and they evolve and they evolve, and then what happens is they get that confidence that comes as a result of competence. But anytime they want to change it up, they want to take risks, they want to try new things, they want to stretch, they want to move to the next level, whatever, they get punted out of that place of confidence because they haven't yet developed the next level of competence that they need. And the thing that's even crazier about this is that if we go into that fake it till you make it thing, A, we limit our ability to get better because we can't ask for help now.

I had to put a little Jersey accent in there. Get better. I'm in Jersey, so I was like, oh yeah, I get it.

Because we're big dumbasses who've been walking around going, I got this. Oh, I'm good. I know everything. Oh yeah, totally fine. I'm an expert. And we're not. So now we can't ask for help because we've already told everybody we don't need anybody. We're already all that and a bag of chips, right? So we're screwed. We're paralyzed. And now imposter syndrome, hello, okay? Because it's legit imposter syndrome. Plus, there's been all kinds of studies done on what happens to our own brains when we smoke our own crack, when we fake it till you make it to the point that, that we start to believe that we actually know more than we do. We lose the ability to make good decisions because they're uninformed decisions by definition, right? And so, but we have to make decisions based on our limited knowledge or, you know, intelligence or whatever it may— I mean intelligence like information. And over time, we start to believe that we actually know more than we do. And then we become dangerous. And that is what happens in politics.

It sounds like narcissism, actually. I think you just described narcissism.

Yes, very, very much so. It's called the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Oh, is it really? So, okay.

It's a thing. Oh, I don't know if it is.

What about this? So, in business though, if I started a new business, I was in computers when I first started out. My first client, I didn't really know how to set up a network. I had some ideas. I feel like I have to tell them, I will get your computer set up. I can do this.

Yeah.

Um, to, to, to kind of transfer that confidence to hire me, but at the same time, I wanna be integral. Is there a way to be a newbie but come across confident?

Yeah, baby. That's called self-belief. Ah, right. That's called self, self-belief is the feeling that I can step off the cliff and I'm not gonna die. You know, things might happen. I might bounce. I might, you know, whatever. Like, you know, I might get a few bruises. I might have to pick myself up again. But I'm not going to die.

I see.

So, absolutely, if you have a new client, now, there's a reason that you went into that business in the first place. You were not a total dumbass.

It's true.

Right? So, you had a whole bunch of competence. You might not have done this exact thing in this exact way for this exact company before. But you still had a degree of competence that gave you the degree of confidence and the self-belief to start the company. So, if you say to the person, you know, if the person is not asking you, so, do you, you know, you have 57 testimonials for companies you've done before? You don't want to lie, right? You say, well, before, before I started my own business, I did this, this, and this, which is how I learned how to do this. But every time I go into a new setup, it's kind of a new adventure. But I promise you, guaranteed, I will get you up and running because I know what I'm doing. So let's go do it, and I will not, I will not, um, step away until you have exactly what you want. My guarantee. And the person's gonna go, cool, the end. Cool. Yeah.

You know, the customers say, why are you learning on my dime? And I say, there will be times I face new challenges, and I will notify you if it's a new challenge and I am learning, and that won't be billed for. Is that appropriate, or is that kind of too wishy-washy?

Yeah, I mean, I think it's also I think for someone, when someone says to you, 'I don't want you learning on my dime,' they're not really saying that. They say, 'I don't want to pay for the extra time that that learning curve might create.' That's right.

That's right.

The end result is the end result. Problem solved, problem not solved, right? So, yeah, what you can say to them is, 'Okay, so let's talk about a fixed cost.' Oh, there you go.

Yeah, there you go. That's even better. Yeah. Yeah. So, that's a good negotiation point.

Say, 'I'm not concerned about that, but if you are, Let's just put a fixed cost against this that you're comfortable with. And if it takes me an extra 5 hours, not on you, dude. That's my time I'm putting into it. Yeah, you're good to go. Then they'll probably go, cool.

I like that, how you guys— because the problem they're describing isn't the problem they're really feeling. It was something— I like that.

Yeah.

All right, so, so give me, um, swagger for people who are not in the business space. Maybe, um, someone is in, I don't know, just a relationship, uh, where they're not demonstrating their true selves and it's not a good, healthy relationship. Does swagger apply there too?

Oh yeah. In fact, I'm very tempted to have my next book be a relationship book because there are so many parallels in this situation. So here's the thing is what everybody wants in this life is to be seen, to be acknowledged, and to be accepted for who they are. That's what we really want at the end of the day. And we're all seeking that. Everyone says, I love my partner because I can be myself with them. They accept I am, all of that stuff. So whenever you are in a relationship, the, the question is kind of like, how did this all start? Did you pretend to be someone that you weren't from the jump, and now you're trapped, and you're, you're like, I, I want the real me to emerge, but now I'm afraid that my partner won't love the real me? Well, the, the, the answer to that is, well, they don't love the real you.

Yeah, right.

You weren't manifesting. You're not the— it's not the real you. So you really have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Now, you don't want to go and one day run around the house screaming, "That's it, I must speak my truth and you must like it." I think that's probably a bad way to approach it. But if your partner does love you, which let's hope is unconditional, and again, let's hope that who you really are is not so radically different than what you've been manifesting, but there are things that you haven't felt secure or comfortable or confident talking about, And then we turn to the mighty triumphant of the swagger drivers, which is truth, intention, and self-belief. Now, speaking your truth is all we got in this life. It's the only way that people can understand what's in our heads and our hearts. We got to be able to speak our truth. But if our truth is only good for us, ain't nobody else going to have time for that. It's just not smart. You got to think about your truth in the context of How am I going to frame it so that it is perceived as being good for the collective, the other, not just me? When is the best time to say this? Where is the best time to say this? And often when there's a bunch of people involved, to whom is this best said? Number 2 is your intention. Why am I saying this? I'm sorry, I'm just going to do that because I'm like—

To get the focus back. I thought you were trying to slap me in the face.

Why am I saying this?

Yeah.

What do I hope to accomplish? And again, is it just for me or is it for the good of both of us? Because your truth doesn't have to be good just for you. It really should be good for the other as well. So if you're in a relationship and you say to your partner, listen, because of what I've experienced in the past, whatever baggage I brought to this, I sometimes feel like I can't always tell you the truth, but that's me. I feel like I can't always tell you the truth and I really wish that we could kind of create a way so that truth can be spoken, so that you can know me better and I can feel more known. You know, the other person's like, oh, well, I want to know you better. Why would I say no to that? That's just sensible, you know, as opposed to, babe, sit down. When you do all these things, I feel all these things, and I need to speak my truth and you have to listen to me. Oh yeah, that's going to go real well.

Yeah, yeah, real well.

Truth, intention, and then self-belief. You have to believe that you are worthy of speaking your truth and being heard in this world. You got to believe that it's worth it and that you deserve it and that it's the life that you want and need to live. So it applies to anything and everyone. And really, in most cases, the swagger blockers are the same.

So give me some of the swagger blockers.

I want you to imagine a series of concentric circles. I wanted to create a little visual model because I think it's really helpful people. So imagine the real you, like a bullseye. Like a bullseye. Yeah. So the real you is inside in this little circle right in the middle. That's the real you that's trapped, that's safe, that's protected from the world. The outer layer is persona.

Okay.

It's the thing that's closest to the world and furthest away from you because it's not you. It's like a projection of you.

Yeah.

It's the thing you show to the world because you think that that's what they want and need to see in order to accept you. You walk a certain way, you talk a certain way, you assimilate into the Borg. Yeah. They know all of those things about how we show up in this world. So persona is the number one blocker. Next blocker in is ambition. Now stay with me on this one because I am all for achievement, aspiration, following your dreams, succeeding. So don't get me wrong. The problem with ambition, however, is it can make you do and say things that are not really you. Because you're doing them with a view to going up the rung of the ladder. And when you're fixated on the next rung of the ladder, you likely are not fixated inwards, which you should be, you know. And you're not fixated left and right to your colleagues and your peers and your community, where you should be. And you're sure as hell not focused on your followers, where you absolutely need to be. Because the truth is, if you focus on them, they will lift You don't have to be going, next, what's up, what's up, what's up. Instead, you want to focus on being in your place of excellence. You know, do interesting, really freaking good work in this world with truth, intention, and self-belief, and contributing to the collective in a meaningful way. And trust me, you will ascend. You will ascend. And when you ascend, everyone's going to go, all hail the ascension! We love that person. We get who she is. She's real. She's transparent. We, we, we, we feel safe with her, all of those beautiful things that we really want. But if you focus on pure ambition, it will have you behaving in ways that are not true to you because it changes people. It can get real ugly. So now you got ambition reinforcing persona.

Yeah, it almost feels like you're stepping on people. You know, she's stepping on people on her way up with ambition. In other, in other ways, you're kind of saying fall back on them and let them lift Yes, absolutely.

I mean, it's not fall back. It's spread yourself across them and with them. You know, be with them and consider them in your journey. It's not just your journey. Because if you go up, you're going to need them with you. And you're going to want them with you. Don't be a leader if you don't want to grow people. Shut up. You know, that's not your gig. Go be a subject matter expert. Have your own little silo. But don't aspire to being a leader unless your purpose is people. Don't do that. It's not a good thing. It's not a good thing. So now the next layer in is insecurity. Insecurity is all the what-ifs. What if I don't walk a certain way? What if people don't accept me? What if I'm not credible? What if people judge me? What if people don't like me? What if I fail? What if, what if, what if, what if? And there are no answers in the place of insecurity. It's the spin dryer for your brain. It just goes around and around and around. That's why the imposter syndrome lives in insecurity. It's what if somebody calls me out? What if someone judges me? What if, what if, what if? And our brains hate uncertainty. So our brains will err on the side of caution every single time. So our brains will choose to assume the worst rather than stay in a place of unknown. And insecurity keeps us in a place of unknown. So now you have insecurity reinforcing ambition, reinforcing persona. Next layer in is fear. Fear is the answer to the what if. What if I don't show up a certain way? What if I don't walk the talk? What if people don't like me? What if I'm not credible? Fear says, Bad things will happen. Yeah, terrible, terrible bad things. Everything you've imagined as the worst-case scenario is going to come to pass. You are doomed. It's horrible. So you just better not try. Don't try. Don't take the risk. Don't do it. Don't do it. Just stay safe. Stay safe. Hurt is coming. Bad, bad, bad, bad. So now you got fear reinforcing insecurity, reinforcing ambition, reinforcing persona. Last layer in is the big one. It's the doozy. It's the scar tissue, the castle gates, mote that protects your vulnerable heart and soul from the world. It's pain. Because pain is proof. Pain is, "Oh, I tried that once and it did not go well." And I have the scarring memories to prove it. I am not going back there. I am not going to expose myself to the world. I am not going to show anybody the real me because if they hurt me or reject me or whatever, that's going to hurt like a bitch. Not going there. So now you have pain reinforcing fear, reinforcing insecurity, ambition, and persona. And there's the real you stuck inside. And every time you want to show the world who you really are, you gotta freaking navigate, negotiate those blockers like an American Ninja-style gauntlet. Yeah, and it kicks the crap out of you with each step. So even if you feel super powerful when it starts, You know what happens is each one of those blockers takes its piece. I mean, you're like a dribbling mess by the time your truth gets out into the world. Or if it does manage to get out, it's a roar on the inside and it comes out like a squeak because you managed to retain like a little bit of its chutzpah. And then so you speak your truth, you express your thoughts in a meeting, you take a risk, you recommend something. And then people by some miracle go, good on you, Mike. That was tight. That contribution was awesome. That was amazing. Good for you, whatever. Right now, that validation has to make its way back through all of the layers. And it gets the same kicking. So your brain starts to go, oh, well, I wonder if they just said it because they wanted to look good. Like, I wanted to make themselves look good. I wonder if they just said it because they want me to like think that they're good and to kind of respect them more. I mean, maybe they didn't mean it at all. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything. Oh God, why do I always do that? Why do I always stick my head up? I should just never do it. I just— I should learn. I should never do it. And here we are, trapped in this paradigm.

So let's get me through this. So yeah, so okay, there's so many layers. Is there a way to kind of short circuit this?

Yes. You— first of all, the thing that the key is is to first understand where do I get stuck the most.

Oh, interesting.

Because if you just try and swallow the whole thing, you're going to choke.

Yeah.

It's too overwhelming. And that's what people try and do. Damn it, I want to be confident. I want to speak my truth. They get a little setback and they die again and they go back. So the first thing is to say, okay, what are the voices in my head saying? And in the book, I break it all down so that people can really hold a mirror to themselves to understand, does this sound like me? Yeah, that sounds like me. Oh my God, that happens to me all the time. So where are you getting stuck? Once you know, and it may be a little bit all across, it may be more one blocker than the other, identify it and say, okay, I'm going to focus on just this, just this for now. And I'm going to get really practical and pragmatic about how I'm going to start to break this down.. And listen, I come from the training background, so I wasn't playing with this book. I was like, this is going to be hardcore exercises, step-by-step, hold-your-hand, testable, provable stuff. Because I didn't want it to just be fluffy wuffy inspiration. That's cruel to do to people. Your swagger can be unleashed, but I can't really tell you how. It's a big secret. No, I don't want to do that. So all of these steps and exercises you're going to practice. I have exercises on practicing speaking your truth. Because if you're not used to doing it, it will sound weird in your own mouth. You will not know what words to use. You will not know what's going to land. You will not know how to frame it. And so, the smart money is on practicing it and then trotting it out in low-stakes situations and then testing it and recognizing, okay, and knowing that all of the blockers are going to come into play as you try and get feedback from the world and how to deal with that. So that the feedback can stay intact in a way that's useful for you. And all of this stuff, like, it's a journey. It's not a, I wake up one morning, I have been unleashed, and it's a miracle. It is a journey like anything else. But it is so—

there can be the kind of two steps forward, one step back also. It's not you're gonna just march forward slowly, but you're gonna go backwards too at times.

But once you, once you figure it out, no one can ever take it away from The whole paradigm shifts.

Is it smart to kind of nail the swagger in something low-hanging fruit? Maybe I'm afraid to do public speaking, but that's a lot easier than being truthful in my relationship. Is there one that's a lower-hanging fruit where we should start, or you kind of get your swagger everywhere at once?

I think it's less about picking one thing that you're afraid of and going after it, because the likelihood is that that issue that you have around public speaking is probably spread pretty well across all of the blockers. You know what I mean? So it's more like saying, I'm going to take a part of the blocker. Like, for example, I, I have a tendency, not me, but let's think of the proverbial I. So I have a tendency to question when people give me compliments. I go right to a place of negativity. I, it's like an automatic process for me. I start to question. That's my insecurity. Being triggered because I can't trust it because I don't feel it about myself, right? Gotcha. So, so I'm going to focus on just that for a little while, that when a compliment comes in or when, you know, some kind of validation comes in, I am going to practice accepting it, figuring out, like, holding on to it like for dear life and go, okay, that was good. What do I do with that? I'm not going to question it. I'm going to turn it into a positive automatic thought as opposed to a negative automatic thought. So I'm going to start training my brain to accept it as something different. I'm just going to do that for a couple of weeks. Just let's just do that. And then slowly you go, hey, I'm starting to feel a little bit, a little bit filled up here because the, the affirmation is coming into me. Like, and so now I want to try and do more stuff to get more of that candy. I like that. That's a good feeling because now it doesn't trigger this thing for me, right? It may be that my past experience, I'm aware of the fact that I had a hard experience or several experiences when I was young, and as a result, I have a lot of pain memory around it. And it could be like anything. I mean, take public speaking. Grade 4 presentation about Arctic bears, and I was in my full flow, and everybody starts laughing, and I realize I have a major booger hanging out of my my nose. Now, at the age of, you know, whatever age, 52, now even though I'm a grown-ass human, right, whenever someone looks at somebody else in a meeting room when I'm presenting, my brain immediately goes, the pain.

It's a bugger moment.

Bugger moment. And it hurts me to my core and all of my stuff, all comes back to me. So, part of that is helping people to understand that they are not their history. They are the stories that they tell themselves. Yeah, yeah. They've got to start rewriting those stories. So we need to— our psyche is going to talk to us. It's going to talk. We can't do anything about it. But what it says, we can have influence over. So part of one of the exercises I have is about excavating those negative self-talk monsters, pulling them out of the darkness into the light, and then And challenging them using facts, not opinions, not, "Please be nice to me. I'm a nice person." Nothing. We got to create the resume of facts that are indisputable, that are unimpeachable, that are unequivocal. Because it's like, "Hey, wait a second. Wait, wait, wait. The facts say this. I'm this. I've done this. I've accomplished this. I've been here. I've done that. These are facts. So when you tell me that I'm not capable." I go, facts. Here's the resume on paper. So you can't take that away from me. That's a fact. I'd use that in court and I'd win. Right. So it's all of these little steps and little processes that culminate.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so far, we talked about speaking boogers. You threw some Yiddish out at me and our mutual friend Jeffrey Shaw, who are the ideal readers for Swagger? Like, who should be getting this book today?

Oh, God. I mean, would it be too swag, too like bad swaggery, too arrogant to say everyone in the world? I mean—

It's not too swaggery.

I don't—

That's the truth.

It's the truth. Yeah. I mean, again, there are a lot of stories from the business world because that's where I spent so much time. But what I'm learning as people are reading the book is they say, even though that is not where I might operate right now, I'm an entrepreneur or I'm I'm right now, I'm working on my own solo project or whatever it is. I can parallel all of these things into my own experience. Everyone's seeing it. It's not like a stretch to go whatever. I mean, Jeffrey Shaw is a perfect example of— he's my Swagger guinea pig. He's the best ever. And he read the book relatively early on and he is like a Swagger convert.

Yeah, I believe it.

It is unbelievable. And the— what I have learned about my own book by hearing it through his perception of what it's doing for him and how it's impacting him and what he's learning blows my freaking mind, you know. So it's going into different people differently. But, um, but so far— knock wood, there's another little Jewish thing, knocking on my head— so far The reaction is that, "Wow, this is so doable." I'm like, "Yes." That's what I love to hear.

Yeah. An author that puts some of their own voice into a book, their true voice, it becomes a one-to-one relationship when reading. And when it's doable, well, that's life-changing. Swagger is going to be a massively successful book. There's no question about it. Leslie, where can people pick it up?

It's funny because I forgot. We are having such a good conversation, I forgot that we were even doing like, like this thing.

Um, that's a good conversation.

I know, it's such a good conversation. Um, you can get it at all, all major, uh, booksellers. So your Amazon, your Barnes Noble, your Indigo, your Books-A-Million, all the shebang.

You can get it everywhere. Good. So go to your favorite bookstore. And, uh, this podcast will go live right after the launch of the book. The book launches May 10th, 2021. Uh, make sure you pick up Swagger. And, uh, if by chance you hear this prior to the launch, get the pre- order because you want to get it on the day it releases. Leslie, thank you so much for joining me today.

Oh, Mike, there could not be more fun that a human can have than this right here. Thank you.