Growing A Business In The Cannabis Industry w Bess Byers #MUIYB Podcast

Yeah, well, in terms of economic revenue, it's been wonderful for the states. Washington State last year generated, I believe it was $397 million in excise tax revenue in just one year from sales. And with COVID the state deemed us essential. We were an essential business because we generate so much, so much revenue for them.

So you're essential to the state.

Yeah, we're essential to the state. And also, I believe between the medical and the recreational industry, there There's 178,000 people in the US that currently work in the cannabis industry. So think about that job creation, that economic revenue that has been created by an industry of people saying, hey, we want the freedom to use this plant.

So I was, I went on this trip with my daughter to check out the national parks. We started at Yellowstone and drove south all the way down to Grand Canyon. And so you go through Wyoming and Colorado, Arizona. Colorado, the marijuana stores are everywhere, everywhere. And you get this whole range, like this really professional high-end, at least externally. You can't go in because they're all COVID ones, down to, uh, this one was called Bud Depot, which was in a strip mall. And as I pull in, the strip mall had like 4 or 5 different stores. It had, you know, 2 restaurants, a little hardware store, pharmacy. Everything was closed. The parking lot was packed. The line waiting to get into the marijuana store was unbelievable. This is exploding. So this— and Jeremy, you book our guests, we're talking about this, but this is a new frontier of business. Like, you know, you don't see this often when a new category enters itself and enters and presents itself. Enters and presents itself, and you see entrepreneurs flocking to it with some people with no experience, no knowledge in, in some, in spaces even similar to this, and they're getting their asses handed to them. Other people are flourishing. It really is like the gold rush. So we brought on Best Buyers, who does marketing for these businesses, to give us some insights. Listen in. So Just to give our listeners context, you're in the cannabis industry. What does that mean?

Yeah. Um, I work in the cannabis industry. I own a digital marketing agency. So we do everything from photography, videography, um, social media strategy development, implementation. We also do web development, blog with SEO, email marketing, kind of the whole digital realm.

Okay. So anything gets the word out, but you said implementation. What does that mean?

Like coming up with a strategy, but then also like writing the captions, making sure that the posts are getting published, inbound, outbound engagement. So like interacting with other pages from our clients' accounts and then making sure that we're responding to the inquiries that come in.

Okay. And cannabis comes in two forms. There's, there's medical applications and there's recreational. Are you promoting or do you market both?

I do market both. And even in the rec market, you know, obviously there's still a lot of people that use cannabis for medical purposes. But just the way that our industry is set up now because we are recreational. You know, it's shifted some of the laws that we had prior when we were medical, that kind of thing.

Okay, so, so when I heard your story, I was like, we got to get you on because of something I never anticipated. You're getting shut down?

Yeah. So Instagram, their terms of service are really vague. And they say that even if something is legal in your state, if it's still federally illegal, that can violate their terms of service. Um, so about 2 years ago I had my Instagram deactivated and reactivated 9 times and Instagram never gave me any clarification as to why my account was deleted. They just kept taking it down. Um, so I never really got any feedback why, but I theorize that in my bio I had email for business inquiries because so many people send me DMs about photo shoots, that kind of content partnerships. And so I just said email for business inquiries. But I think Instagram came out with a new algorithm or some sort of like AI that when they were going through and seeing the weed content with email for business inquiries, then they flagged my page as a sales, like trying to sell pot.

Oh, I see.

Because as soon as I took that out of my bio, I didn't have any issues.

Okay. But this is, this is peculiar. So what's so interesting to me about this industry, this is, this is the Wild West. This is, uh, perhaps probably that's the biggest movement of a, of a mass accepted product that's always been, you know, it's always been around in gray law with medicine. People are using it for other reasons. It's always been on the black market, trying to legalize it. I guess this is like since Prohibition, the biggest, uh, searches, researches this, but it seems like no one really knows what's going on and, and there's conflict and you're caught in the crossfire.

Yeah, that's definitely a good way of putting it. I mean, I think a lot of people, we just want clarification from big tech. You know, what is it that's causing our accounts to get deleted? Because even with my account, I'll get people that make fake pages using my photography. I've had people find my account and say, oh, somebody using your photos told me they'd send me weed. So I sent them money. And so people are using my work to scam people. So you would think that Instagram would want to work with cannabis content creators, cannabis brands, to help get us verified, to, you know, so that there is more transparency so that people can be assured that the person they're following is actually the person in the pictures. But no, they don't do that. They don't write us back. They don't give us any clarification. It's very vague.

Is Instagram the only one with this peculiar enforcement?

It's Instagram and Facebook. YouTube has also been that way. They took down content creators One of my favorite content creators, they took him down at over 100,000 subscribers. Then they brought him back. Then they took him down again and again, never gave him any reason why.

Yeah. Okay. So, okay. So that's really tough to do business on those parameters because I presume you're making promises to your clients. Here's the exposure we'll get for you. Here's what we'll do for you. But you can't guarantee that the platform will even permit at any given time what you're doing.

I do. And I've unfortunately had to note that in my contract because when my account started going down, you know, I had sponsored content campaigns campaigns that were in the works and obviously these clients had agreed contractually to advertise on one channel, so I couldn't be like, oh, well here's my backup page with 10,000 followers when you thought you were advertising to 90. So, so yeah, it can be really hard. You know, and I did, I had a lot of money that was in this limbo and I was so thankful that I had clients that were understanding and were willing to work with me. And once my page came back, I was able to complete their campaigns, but it is very frustrating.

So, okay. So let's rewind to day one. How did you ever get into this industry advertising cannabis?

Yeah, it kind of started out, it was really weird. So I was living in Los Angeles at the time. Um, you know, I've smoked pot since my late high school days, like college. Um, and I was living in Los Angeles and actually it wasn't until I lived in LA that I started to see cannabis as more of a way to incorporate into my exercise. Like I lived in Venice Beach, so I loved after work to smoke weed and then I would go for runs on the boardwalk and I felt like it really enhanced my runs. It helped my It helped my focus. Same thing, I would like get stoned and go to Zumba on Saturday mornings and it helped me feel the music. So I've just always been a fan of cannabis. And then politically, you know, I believe in freedom, liberty, limited government, the freedom to choose a plant should you so do, whether that is medically or recreationally. And so I was living in LA, I was, I had a nonprofit to educate millennials about the national debt. And I was going to move to DC and I jokingly told a girlfriend of mine, oh, I'm moving to DC in the next month unless you know anyone in the cannabis industry that can make me a better offer. Well, she and her fiancé had a cannabis license and they called me back. They made me a better offer. And, um, I moved to Washington and worked for them and, you know, starting doing lifestyle content for them. Um, their brand was very Northwest oriented. The tagline was Light Up the Moment and that content performed really well. Like people liked seeing cannabis normalized. And showing people like you and me consuming it. And from there I created a second account just to highlight my cannabis work and it took off from there. And here I am 5 years later.

Do you see the stigma going away or is it growing around cannabis?

I would say it's definitely going away, but the stigma still persists. I mean, even in my own family, you know, my, I have aunts and uncles who are surprisingly very anti-pot. But yet they want me to bring alcohol to Thanksgiving dinner, but they don't want me to bring cannabis. And so it's, it's interesting. And I think that, you know, we're just kind of starting to get, get past that. Even my mom, you know, she keeps saying like, when she talks about cannabis, she's like, oh, but it's for medical. And I'm like, no, but, but recreational, like it can still help you too. Like, you know, it's not just medical. It's not something to be ashamed of.

What I find so interesting is, um, is— and I, I do this— I don't categorize alcohol as a drug, but it's a drug.

Yeah.

And but it's accepted and regular, uh, regulated drug, and therefore it feels like it's appropriate. Cigarettes are— have a drug, uh, you know, nicotine. And, um, and the potential risks we run are extraordinary. But if someone's smoking cigarettes, like, oh, that's their choice. Yeah, the second I hear someone lights up a joint, like, that's bad, you're a bad person. Um, and it's interesting that, um, even though it's becoming legal in these different states, it feels like there's like, um, there's still this divide, is a polarization of people. So if that's true, that, that context is true, how do you advertise, uh, and how do you market a product where there's some people that Maybe it's almost like politics. Some people hate and some people love. Like, how do you market into that kind of polarized community?

Just normalization, you know, showing people using cannabis in everyday settings. Um, you know, we, the cannabis industry as a whole, I think on social media, we're trying to get away from that, that kind of overconsumption that I think sometimes Instagram tends to prioritize. Like people, they'll get tons of views for a video where they take 100 bong rips, but that's not normal and nor is that healthy. So for me, trying to normalize that, it's showing people of all ages using products in my marketing materials, showing people integrating a joint into their dinner party or with a grandparent or exercising or with nature, you know, showing active, you know, positive consumption versus like, I'm going to smoke a ton of weed in my basement and then eat a bunch of food.

But it's funny as you say that, right? So you say it like it's so fluid for you, but I'm hearing them like smoking a, you know, some ganja with grandma. Like, are you?

And I have.

With my grandma?

Yeah. And cannabis is a bronchial dilator, so it helps open your airways. There's a lot of positive benefits. My grandma is, she's 90. And it seems like just in the last couple years, she suddenly has revived this late night desire for like one cigarette before bed. And so I've been trying to to tell her, you know, "Grandma, you shouldn't be smoking a cigarette. You should be smoking some CBD. It's going to help you relax. It's going to help your muscles. It's going to open your airways, help your breathing. You're going to feel a lot better than if you're smoking a cigarette." Is there the reverse effects though?

So, you know, I hear proponents for marijuana saying, "Here's all the wonderful things. It's a panacea," but it's smoke. Are there downsides?

I think with any product, if you're irresponsible and you're over-consuming, there can be downsides. You know, it's all in response. Responsible consumption, and part of that too for me is looking for farms who I know are pesticide-free, they're sustainable, they're growing properly, and that's something that I actually really worry about with the kind of the commercialization of weed is you have people that are getting into this industry that just see it as a cash crop, and so they see it as, you know, spray whatever on the plants, feed them whatever, just make sure you get big yields so that you make a ton of money. And I worry that, you know, if down the road, God forbid, you know, science starts to come out and say, ooh, cannabis could be leading to health issues, I fear it's because the Monsantos, the Marlboros, the Pfizers of the world have gotten licenses and are growing irresponsibly. One of the clients that I work with, he grew medically for his dad who had stage 4 thyroid cancer. And so for him, he maintains those same growing practices today of, pesticide-free, sustainable, you know, that he did for his dad. And so I think it's so important that customers look for that.

And I suspect the big players, Monsanto, they're going to come into the market, I assume, when there's federal approval. You know, but this is true in every industry. You have the early innovators, that's the small businesses, and the big players come in because it is a cash crop. Is there a way— is there regulation or are there things happening or is there a movement from consumers, because consumers can dictate what suppliers provide, to make sure that it's as safe as possible? And those controls, are they being put in place?

Yes and no. It's interesting, in Washington State they say, oh, no pesticides on your products, but then they don't require pesticide tests for products every single batch the way that they require testing for like mildew and THC percentages. So you would You would think if the state wanted people to really be safe and make sure they're not smoking pesticides, that the state would include that in their regulations, but they don't. That's why I think it's so important for customers to educate themselves on who their farmer is, what are their growing practices, what are their nutrients that they use, what are their pest prevention methods. And in terms of just legalization going forward, and obviously, you know, there will be the corporate players that enter the game, but I think it's so important that as states are legalizing, that they're ensuring enough licenses for growers that the market can be competitive. And I think Washington has one of the best markets for that because we didn't allow for vertical integration. So if you own a grow or a processing license, you can't own a shop license.

Oh, interesting.

In other states, like for example, was it Massachusetts is a great example. I believe they only gave out like 11 grow licenses total for the entire state. Which I believe is morally wrong because then the people that are getting those licenses tend to be politically connected, wealthy, you know, when the grow— if the grow fails, then the consumers have even less market options. And so I think it's really important that we are giving licenses to a lot of people. We're giving, especially the people who have been disproportionately harmed by cannabis, the people that have been arrested, and just ensuring that moving forward.

Was Colorado the first state to legalize?

It was Colorado and Washington, and we both passed, I believe it was in 2014.

Okay. I remember the news stories back in 2014 saying, oh my God, you know, Colorado is the new pot state. It's going to be mayhem. What's the actual facts? So now we're 6 years plus past that. Do you know any statistics? How have the effects been?

Yeah, well, in terms of economic revenue, it's been wonderful for the states. Washington State last year generated, I believe it was $397 million in excise tax revenue in just one year from sales. And with COVID the state deemed us essential. We are an essential business because we generate so much, so much revenue for them.

So you're essential to the state.

Yeah, we're essential to the state. And also, I believe between the medical and the recreational industry, industry. There's 178,000 people in the US that currently work in the cannabis industry. So think about that job creation, that economic revenue, um, that has been created by an industry of people saying, hey, we want the freedom to use this plant.

Yeah. And what about, um, I'm just thinking, uh, crime, has it increased crime or decreased crime?

Do you know any of that stuff? Um, I don't know statistics about that. I do know in Washington State, because it's such a cash-based industry, that that has caused some crime for the shops. You know, there are shops that are getting robbed at gunpoint because the criminals know that they're cash only and they're a gun-free zone. So what better place to come and rob than a place that's all cash, like tens of thousands of dollars in cash, if not more, and no one has a gun. And so that's what's concerning to me is that we need to have some changes to banking, allowing people to protect themselves so that that kind of stuff doesn't happen.

And then I remember other arguments too, saying, well, productivity is— everyone's going to be stoned, everyone's going to be sitting at home with the munchies and not working. There's going to be this great economic decline on people that are taking weed or smoking weed. I don't think that's happening. I don't know if you have any knowledge on that.

I don't have any statistics about that. I know that in Colorado, they released a study a couple of years ago that had found that opioid use had declined. And I know just myself, you know, through working with veterans, you know, some of the businesses I've worked in, Our veteran community has been immensely benefited by the legalization of weed. Veterans who have been forced to take a cocktail of pharmaceuticals every single day are now able to just smoke an indica before they go to bed at night. And so if anything, it's been hurting the pharmaceutical industry, but I hear so many positive stories of people that have been replacing their pills with a plant that it's hard for me to look at what, the negatives.

And if I recall this correctly, marijuana was legal in the United States up to a period of prohibition. And exactly, that's true, right? And so effectively, this has just been the longest-term prohibition. Alcohol was on prohibition for X number of years, and this has been X times 10.

Exactly. And I think that part of that is just, again, like special interests, you know, hemp, cannabis. There's a lot of things that you can do with it in terms of textiles, you know, oils, alternative uses. And I think that, you know, the powers that be, they didn't want that.

Right. Because yeah, right. You have the alternative. You want to sell the alternative. You want to block it out.

Yeah. I mean, people— when people are sick, that's a profit for big pharma. So why would they want people to cure themselves with the plant?

Yeah, it's absolutely true, right? These big companies, they're thinking of themselves first. They're not thinking of your health first. And if they can make more money, it's clearly they're incentivized that way. I'm not saying they're not good ethical people there. But there's an incentive that makes you look the other way. Now I'm curious about the ongoing legalization. I don't have my thumb on the pulse, and I don't know how close you are, but when it comes on a state-by-state basis, what do you anticipate? Is this gonna be cleared through every single state in the next 5 years? Maybe if this is where we're gonna stand for 20 years? What's your sense?

I hope it goes state by state, and I know a lot of people in the industry hope it goes state by state as well. And actually when California voted on their recreational bill, a lot of people in the medical community voted against it because people are worried just seeing these rec bills come into play that they're not good bills for the patients who really need this as medicine. We also worry that if it goes federal, you know, it'll kind of open the floodgates for big business to come in. And I even look at Canada as a great example of horrible federal legalization. Canada legalized and they shut down a lot of the small growers, the small mom-and-pop shops. A lot of these big corporate players came in and now they're growing weed that is terrible for the customer. Their marketing rules don't even allow people to see the product in the container before they buy it. And so I think that's what people are worried about is, is the federal government and the community as a whole gonna be so quick to see, oh, legal weed, vote yes, but they're not gonna read the fine print and see, ooh, actually this limits my choices. A great, actually a great example would be the act. What is it? The, not the CARES Act. Is it the CORE Act? Whatever the cannabis legalization bill is that I believe is, was it Kamala Harris, Cory Booker, a couple other people are pushing this cannabis legalization bill. But then if you read the fine print, it includes a 5% tax on all products sold, which is gonna make the products more more expensive to the very people who need them. And then if you read further into the fine print, you're going to see that that money, it's not going to the community, it's going to the, what is it, the Attorney General Department, to then go to like government bureaucracies to kind of like trickle down and distribute.

And so, right, right. So, so the money comes out of the population instead of being distributed, they put it back in the very top and it kind of funnels through and they get a little drop.

Yeah.

Welcome to government.

And Washington State is a great way like that as well, is I believe, is it only, is it 15% of our total excise tax revenue actually goes back to cities and counties? A huge percentage of it goes to the general fund, then it goes to the state for like anti-pot marketing materials. And so that's what I have such an issue with.

Yeah, I gotcha. Let's talk about the opportunity here because we have a lot of entrepreneurs listening to the show and You know, if there's opportunity, I'm sure they're listening pretty closely. What I'm hearing already is it's not just in being a grower or a distributor or a retail outlet, it's in being a marketing agency for them. What's the breadth of opportunity for the marijuana market?

Oh my gosh, there's so much opportunity. I mean, I am seeing people, I mean, myself included, if you had told me 5 years ago that, oh, you're going to have a cannabis marketing agency, that's a job that didn't really exist. And now you're having ceramic artists that are suddenly turned into, you know, international bong makers or, um, you know, people that are, um, for a good example, delivery drivers, you know, all these producer processors need to get their weed to their shop. So now you have your delivery drivers in their, you know, bolted up vans delivering product. Um, you have lawyers that are now cannabis-specific lawyers. You have lawyers that are now cannabis tax-specific lawyers, you know, or cannabis accountants. So really, you know, I tell people, if you want to get into the industry, think about what it is that you're passionate about. What do you love? What do you want to do? And how can you provide value to the industry? Because I see a lot of people who, they just want to get into the industry and they think having a lot of money, getting a license, that's instant, instant millions, but that's not it. You have to be authentic. You have to have a story. You know, people want to support people who are doing it right. And so I think if you come into the space and you're genuine and you're trying to improve the industry, people will see that and support you.

Yeah. And, you know, my daughter and I actually just toured through Colorado. We were going to all the national parks, starting Wyoming. We drove down, we went to Rocky National. It was interesting. Colorado's legalized and there were shops everywhere, but it wasn't, you know, it was all these individual standalone stores as opposed to a big conglomerate. Yeah, which means each one needs their own marketing campaign, each one needs their own security and transport and all these different systems. So it does sound like it's a big opportunity, but what— there's, you know, for every upside there always seems to be downsides too. As we experience legalization, as it expands, have you seen any downsides, any significant risks, reasons to avoid this industry? Yeah.

I wouldn't say reasons to avoid, but I would say some of just the downsides would be 280E. Right now, because cannabis is federally illegal, there's a portion of the IRS's tax code called 280E.

Okay.

And 280E says that even if your business is illegal, you still have to pay taxes to the government on it. And that tax is so high that it's kind of the government's way of like trying to put companies out of business. Interesting. Same thing with, with just the taxes in general at a city level, like in Seattle, the city of Seattle, in order for you to do business, business within the city of Seattle, whether it's basing your business in Seattle or even selling your products in Seattle, um, they've increased the licensing a few thousand dollars a year, which has a really negative impact on small to medium-sized businesses. Um, and so I think kind of the, one of the problems is that government greed, you know, government sees cannabis as a huge cash cow for them, but some of the taxes in my opinion are detrimental and they actually put people out of business. When in reality you want people to be in business because then they're creating jobs, they're creating revenue, right?

It fuels the economy, right? And so personal income tax, so the government wins because people are being employed. Exactly. So, so one of the risks I'm hearing now is because the government regulations are so— hey, they hit you in the mouth with the fees and so forth, but also it sounds like it's still actively changing. We don't know what the federal law is going to be. So it still sounds like a pretty big risk to me, at least in being in the supply side, growing, supplying, or retailing. It sounds like for you, low risk or lower risk.

No, not entirely, because sometimes when the government increases those regulations, you know, because of 280E, my services companies don't get to write those off on their taxes. And so when government eats into my clients through increased taxes, increased regulations, a lot of companies, marketing is one of those things that, that has to get cut because people think, oh, well, I can do my marketing myself. Or, um, you know, I guess we'll try and keep the business afloat. And then once we get more money, then we can market. And so it's one of those things about like that balance of, you know, you need marketing to sell your product, but also you need to sell your product to afford your marketing.

So that's fascinating. So I didn't realize this. If I distribute marijuana or I sell it, I got a store, and I hire you as my agency to help me promote my goods, I can't use my— what I pay you is not tax deductible because on a federal level it's not legal.

Yes, correct.

On a state level it is. That is so bizarre.

Yeah. And so for me, I feel really, really appreciative of the clients that I have because to me they're saying that like the value you provide is so much to us that that tax write-off, you know, it's—

yeah, who cares, we'll lose the 30%. So let's talk about kind of the unjustness, perhaps is the right word, or maybe it is just— but with Instagram and Facebook in shutting you down at times and kind of waffling, you did an experiment that just blew my mind. You researched out pedophilia and how it's being promoted and found that there's more acceptance at least this was my interpretation, for pedophilia on Instagram than there is for marijuana.

Absolutely. And what's crazy is it all started because I had a woman send me a page that she found and she was like, how do these pages get to thrive when the cannabis industry is being shut down? And it was like, I mean, I don't even want to describe the pictures that were on there. It made me sick to my stomach to think that these pages exist. And then once you see the page and you see who follows them, you fall down this rabbit hole of like borderline child porn that's on Instagram. And it took Instagram almost a month to delete the accounts that I had reported.

Yeah. And you had to report them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But yet they're taking down legal cannabis accounts and not giving us any explanation why.

Right. So what I'm assuming is there's some algorithm that says, oh, that looks like a marijuana plant. Shut it down and figure it out. Yet borderline child pornography, it sounds like, well, who are we to judge? And maybe this is a very rough interpretation, but it's just interesting of where the enforcement's going. Is that money-backed? Do you feel that Instagram, if they're at greater risk of not shutting down you because the government, the federal government, come after them, and hey, if some scumbag gets away with some child porn, we're not gonna get slapped on the wrist— do you think that may be an influencer?

Yeah, and I also think that there's a lot more people that are involved in child porn and child trafficking than people want to realize. There was— the FBI released a statistic that said 1 in 100 people are pedophiles. And so those people aren't just low-level grimy people. That's people in all positions, people with money, people in all, all places that we don't like to think about.

Yeah, so we want to brush under the rug. I remember there's that major case, I think it was Jeffrey Weinstein, and actually please don't call me that because I may be thinking the wrong name, but there was a, uh, a very pretty high-profile person who was trafficking women, uh, through his organization. I think he committed suicide. Um, and it's so funny that that story— funny in a sad way— it just gets brushed aside. It didn't start this investigation of what is the big systemic problem. Yet, yet with marijuana, it seems like a big story breaks and people just kind of splinter in and dig deeper and keep on digging in.

Yeah, I mean, exactly. People don't, people don't want to talk about, about things. It's easier for them to target a plant than pedophiles.

Oh, that's a great observation. That's a great observation. So, so, so fast forward, let's go 10 years from today. What's the best outcome for this industry and what's the worst outcome? What do you think the two extremes that we could be at? And we'll probably end somewhere in the middle.

Oh gosh, I would say the worst outcome would be that we have federal legalization with a tax, even a 5% tax on it, that then goes to the Department of Justice or the Attorney General. My big fear would be with federal legalization that, you know, the Monsantos, the Pfizers, those kinds of people get licenses, they put the small farmers out of business. You know, and that's why I created my agency is because those are the people I don't want to work with. I want to see the small farmer thrive. I want to see them be successful. My ideal of federal legalization would be that the government acknowledges that just letting people create jobs is going to be beneficial enough for them that they're not going to want to add on that extra tax. I would love to see, you know, people, if they— anybody really that wants to get a license, get a license. I also don't like seeing, um, like caps on how much THC you can put in products because now in Washington State, you know, for example, with edibles, you can only have 100 milligrams of THC per edible pack and each edible can only be 10 milligrams each. So that hurts, for example, the cancer patients or, you know, people that want higher doses because they're really in a lot of pain. Um, I would also love to see— where was I going with this? Legalization, anybody being able to own a license.

Incarceration.

Do you think in the best case incarceration drops?

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. And that's something that I think needs to happen right away is, you know, cannabis is legal or medical in what, 35 states now nationwide? How many states? The fact that we have— pardon?

How many states?

I believe it's 35. 35. Is medical or recreational in some form. And I think that, you know, if you have states legalizing at any level, you know, you have to let people out of jail for the voluntary consumption of a plant. And that's really what it boils down to is my body, my choice. It's not just an abortion talking point. It pertains to plants, vaccines, you know, so many other things that, you know, if— I mean, we can't be a free country and put people in jail for pot, especially when you see some of these people that are in jail for 10 years, 20 years, life.

Yeah, right, right. For something they digested. If they simply chose a six-pack of beer, they'd be fine. They chose a joint, they're not. Um, you know, my, my sense is if you put someone else at harm, that's when it becomes an issue. Meaning if, if I take a drug and then, uh, it causes me to become violent and harmful of other people, or or if I drink and I get in an accident and kill someone or smoke, that that is the crime. But I don't know what's your sense around that.

I absolutely agree with that. Actually, that aligns with my belief in the non-aggression principle of don't hurt people, don't take their stuff. But you brought up an interesting point about when, you know, when people are doing drugs and hurting people. Well, the city of Seattle gives out— what was it, 4 million syringes they gave out last year in their like needle exchange program? Those needles get left on the streets. Those people that are doing the drugs are breaking in. I mean, I've had my car broken into twice living in Seattle.

I've been homeless—

I heard you had a gun pulled on you.

What? I heard you had a gun pulled on you.

Oh yeah, but that was actually a whole different story. That guy was— yeah, that's a whole other story. He wasn't on drugs. I think he just had his own anger issues. But yeah, I mean, how is it that the city can give people syringes to do heroin And then, and then at the same time be like, ooh, but you, you know, you get a ticket if you get caught smoking a joint in public.

Yeah. Yeah, right. It definitely seems like there's this kind of bipolarism going on. Um, and they're taking these moves to, uh, kind of acquiesce a big problem as opposed to taking a bold move that could crush all the issues.

Exactly.

Really a fascinating discussion. So, uh, 10 years from now, you're still in this business? Uh, are you, or do you, are you going to change the business to something different?

I don't anticipate changing the business into anything different, but I do hope to run for office within the next 10 years, ideally within the next 5. I've seen a lot of divide with the two-party system, and I'm really active in the local Libertarian Party. And so I really want to present people with an alternative political party that advocates for freedom for all people, you know, recognizing the importance of like, you know, I don't want to say like the freedom of the individual, but like really, you know, acknowledging that, you know, we have 300 million people in America. You know, people should be free to make the choices that are best for them, again, as long as they don't hurt people or impose on the freedoms of others. And so I really want to run for office.

That is really cool. Yeah, I think, you know, regardless of your political affiliation, I think we can all at least acknowledge we've never been so polarized as a country And that's what I'm observing. And it'd be nice to see some alternative beliefs circulating around.

Exactly.

Best buyers, thank you so much for joining us today.

Of course. Thank you so much for having me. It was wonderful speaking with you.

Okay, so interesting conversations, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. When she's like, oh, before I go, I like to run. She's like, before I go running, I smoke weed. I'm like, what? She's like, I run better.

I'm like, what?

Yeah. Like, what's that?

And before Zumba, I was like, huh, I think that's interesting.

Yeah, to feel the music.

Yeah.

And I feel like for some people, it's probably really good. It like, lets go of your inhibitions, right?

I guess so. You know, I don't know if I'd run. Now I feel like I have to smoke weed and go.

I know, I just want to test it.

Yeah, I want to test it.

That was my big takeaway was that marijuana is a bronchial expander. That is a dilator. I never heard that before. That was so interesting.

At least I've heard the counterpoints. You know, Bess was clearly an advocate. Yesterday on my drive back, as I'm listening to all these different radio stations, on comes this talk radio, and one show was about marijuana. And it was this person that was an opponent for it and the dangers. Particularly, he was talking about the intensity. And I don't know the medical applications or the how it affects our bodies. But he said the intensity of THC is becoming more and more dense, and the— so therefore the high you get is so extreme, he's purporting all these different dangers associated with it. So it's just interesting. I heard both sides. It's like the Democrats and Republicans, the same fact in the middle, two different vantage points on the other side.

And I think in that case, they don't they're not exclusive. Like, I think they both exist, right? Like, yeah, and can still be true.

So what was your feedback, Jeremy?

So it's interesting, I was trying to find the name of, uh, I, I know this, who this guy is, but I can't remember his name. He was a super famous bodybuilder in the '90s. I mean, absolutely huge, massively huge. And, uh, he was on Joe Rogan's podcast and they were talking about marijuana because he still lives a very active lifestyle, but he's— you know, it's different. He's not, he's not trying to be huge anymore. He's just trying to be as healthy as possible. He can be. And, uh, he's a big proponent for marijuana. And, uh, he said that, uh, before he lifts, he smokes. And they were talking about the bronchial dilation and everything. And, uh, so it was interesting. He said that he was having a conversation with somebody who looked up to him and then he told him that he smokes and they were like, oh, well, like, I thought you were, you know, Mr. Healthy. And he was like, that's the healthiest thing that I do. And I just thought that that was, that was Interesting that take on it because, you know, I never thought of that. But in terms of like— oh, sorry, go ahead.

There's a stigma, right? Yeah, yeah, it's been qualified as a drug, it's considered dangerous, that there was a, you know, Just Say No campaign, all this momentum against it, and then one day they say, well, our bad.

Yeah, well, and somebody can fact-check me on this, the whole story behind the campaign against marijuana was started— it was a propaganda machine because it had something to do with a media company and It's the paper industry. Yeah, the paper industry was worried.

It was like Hirsch or Pulitzer, one of the other, basically, because if they introduced hemp, hemp is a better alternative to producing paper than wood, and they had, you know, investments in the logging industry.

Yeah, but I just think that nobody expected the that this was gonna be as big as it is. And there's so much money that can be used for good. And so I really hope that if all the states end up legalizing it, it becomes, you know, this mechanism to evoke change in a good way in terms of education, in terms of like stopping the war on drugs, 'cause it's a money pit hole that we just keep throwing money in and it's not doing anything. And so I think that if it's allocated properly, that this is a really, really good thing for the economy. It's a really good thing for the country in general. But I think it needs to be used in the right way.

Yeah, I thought she brought up really good points in terms of the way the taxes work and that I had never really heard talked about, like that whole— the taxes then going to the attorney general and potentially the Department of Justice. And so I think we do need to be super aware of these bills that are getting passed. And also, when she brought up Canada, and, you know, they're federally allowed, right? It's federal legalization, but now it's caused all these problems, and the way that they operate isn't good for consumers or the industry. So I thought that those were good kind of cautionary tales for us to be really considerate of as we move forward. Eye-opening, definitely.

Yeah.

I like too how much, Mike, you were talking about this, the opportunity that exists for business with this, like things I didn't think about, like lawyers and transportation and writing. And there's so much, there's so much that could come out of this.

Yeah, I don't know if you heard the stories, like, you know, in history class or whatever, they would say that, you know, the Gold Rush, the money was made by Levi jeans, right? It was all the ancillary support stuff where the real money was. What I found interesting is the, uh, that there was more effort, at least according to Bess, to squash marijuana than pedophilia.

Yeah, yeah, I wrote that down too.

I was like, oh yeah. Now first of all, pedophilia, the definition, how she was defining it, and a legal definition may vary, right? So as I heard this, like, oh, it's her definition, um, perhaps perhaps, right? So I don't think there's— maybe indicative of, but not explicit, where the marijuana, maybe it's a much more clear, clearer line. But regardless, what was fascinating to me is that marijuana is something that you can vehemently oppose, and pedophilia is something you just want to actually put under the rug and not talk about, and how it manifests in the controls from these companies. I really thought that was an interesting insight.

Yeah, and I thought even that an algorithm like that exists to that degree was enlightening to me. I didn't realize that they could automatically kind of shut down accounts like that based on computer information as opposed to this, you know, being reported and then somebody looks into it and closing down an account. I think that's a really good thing to know and be aware of.

Yeah, I think that, and then just ties into, I mean, that's a whole separate conversation, is the control the social media companies have, which, you know, they have a huge responsibility. And you can argue that they're not doing a very good job with that responsibility at this point because their priorities are on making money and not, you know, making sure that the content is what they want to be putting out there.

You know, I do want to make one correction. In the show, I think I said Jeffrey Epstein. I meant to say Jeffrey Wine. Stein. So just note that if you decide to Google that person. We do want to know what you thought about the show, so please rate some reviews. I didn't forget the trivia. I didn't forget the trivia.

I think you're right on the Epstein, Mike.

Yeah, I think you said Harvey Weinstein and I think you meant Jeffrey.

Oh, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, I did say Weinstein or Weinstein. I did mean Epstein. That's correct. So yeah, so thanks for correction. In my notes it says I messed up Weinstein.

Well, both of them are horrible people anyway, so it doesn't really make a difference.

God, yeah.

The other—

the Weiner is the other one, right?

Oh yeah, he— other Wieners are bad.

He was the politician.

The politician. Yeah. Um, but what's— what was his first name?

Was it Jeff?

No, Anthony Weiner. Anthony Weiner. But there's no other bad Wieners that I can think of. I like how you repeated that joke again because people didn't react to it the first time. I can't think of any other bad wiener.

There's a reason nobody reacted to it the first time.

So let's go on to the trivia question.

You ready for trivia? All right, so what's this— what's the trivia topic? Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, because that's— that's what I wanted to research, right? I wanted to look that up. I would say—

I would say it's— it's not Not on marijuana. I would say, well, maybe it is on marijuana. I think it's more about social media.

That's my guess. It's marijuana.

It's on marijuana.

For one time, it's brilliant.

Yeah, you pick up the most random things. I like that it keeps us on our toes.

Yeah, it relates to the guest. Okay, so question number 1. Research has proven that compounds in marijuana can stop aggressive types of this disease. Is it diabetes? Dementia or cancer? That's the new theme song for the quiz show.

When you went on your date, Kelsey, did you drop that at all?

I don't think I did, although I tend to do it involuntarily, so it's like a nervous habit.

Yeah, yeah, but as long as you didn't do it on your first date with that guy because he's like, oh my, oh my God, am I—

I think it's like, it's like her transition song, like so when she's switching screens when we're having like a meeting or something There's generally a little—

you know, he's like, he's like, this is an amazing date. She's amazing. She's beautiful.

She's, she's a robot. And then the first course of dinner gets served and she's going as the plates get put on the table because they're transitioning.

I'm gonna sleep now. And she turns the switch off like, okay, there's a movie called She, I think, or Her.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was a good movie.

What is it? She or Her?

Now I need to find it.

Joaquin Phoenix? Joaquin Phoenix, yeah. He falls in love with an operating system.

With a computer. Some guy falls in love with a computer.

It is—

those movies. To be fair though, it is Scarlett Johansson as the computer, so—

oh yeah, who wouldn't fall in love with a computer?

A voice. Her voice is great. She has a great voice. All right, number— question number 2. Marijuana is the fastest growing industry in the United States since 2015. If legal in all states, it will be bigger than what industry? The fast food industry, the organic food industry, or the sporting goods industry?

Oh, what was the first option again? Uh, fast food industry.

What?

Fast, fast. That was the first option?

Yeah, fast food was first, organic food is two, and then sporting goods is three.

I already have a complaint about that question depending on what the answer is. If you answer one way, I can prove that it's wrong when you answer it, but that's just my mind's going, so.

Oh, great. Okay, good. Thank you. I'm glad my trivia is appreciated. Uh, all right, question number three. Where does the term Mary Jane come from, referring to marijuana? Is it a derivation of the Mexican pronunciation of Mary and Jane? Is it because the shoe named Mary Jane was where joints were commonly hidden? Or was it from the Spider-Man character Mary Jane used as a code for looking to buy marijuana? Okay, all right, you guys ready? Yeah. Okay, so number 1. Research has proven that compounds in marijuana can stop aggressive types of what disease?

Dementia?

Cancer. Cancer. It's cancer. Yeah.

Really?

Yeah. That's pretty wild. Can you take it? Can you take those compounds without the THC? Can you take this CBD or whatever it is? I mean, did you have to get high?

I mean, I didn't read through the synopsis of like everything.

Yeah.

Well, you're going to prove me wrong anyway. So, uh, But yeah, no, I think, um, I think they're working on trying to figure out how to separate the compounds. Yeah. Um, okay. Number 2, marijuana is the fastest growing industry in the United States since 2015. If legal in all states, it will be bigger than the fast food industry, the organic food industry, or sporting goods.

So can I say if the answer is not organic food, the answer is wrong.

Why do you know?

Why do you say that? Because of those three industries, organic food's the smallest industry. Therefore, if it's bigger than an industry, it can be bigger than organic and smaller than fast food. But if you say it's bigger than fast food, that means it's also bigger than organic and sporting. So it's got to be organic.

Okay, what do you guys say?

I said sporting goods.

I don't know, I'm gonna go with fast food just to be different.

Yeah, Mike, you're right. I didn't think that anybody was going to read into it that much, but yes. Well, according to the statistical facts based on the knowledge that I have in the industries. No, actually, yeah, when I wrote that question, I actually did think that. I was like, oh, that is the smallest industry. So this is kind of a trick question, but yeah.

Um, okay. I like the voice you did for me. That was good.

It's just like a generic nerd derivative of the, uh, Yeah. Well, in my third book I wrote about a shoestring that was larger. All right, so the term Mary Jane comes from referring to marijuana. Is it a derivation of the Mexican pronunciation, named after the shoe because joints were commonly hidden in them, or from the Spider-Man character?

I said from the pronunciation.

I'm saying from the pronunciation too.

I say it's a derivation also.

Yeah, it is. Yep. And I, I did not know that. I'm surprised. I, I don't know if it's common knowledge or—

well, I just thought it was like marijuana. It's spelled sort of like Mary Jane, so I thought it was just a code name for the spelling. Yeah, me too.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, how many points you guys get?

I got 2 out of 3.

2.

Oh, a 3-way tie!

But I got 0 on the last.

I'll have to start including a 4th question to throw off the tiebreakers.

The tiebreaker. Yeah, yeah. Well, how— yeah, it may not be a tiebreaker.

Only if, if we have a tie, then there's a fourth one prepared is what he's saying.

Oh, I gotcha. Yeah, and the first person to answer it right has to win or something, because what if we all answer right, then there has to be a fifth tiebreaker and then a sixth.

Yeah, keep going, Mike.

Yeah, what if it's a time thing where it's the first person to shout the correct answer?

Yeah, like we need a buzzer.

Yeah.

And then you say it.

Thanks for demonstrating a buzzer, Doug. I always was curious. I knew they made that buzz sound. I didn't know they made that face. They do. All right guys, we hope you enjoyed this show. We love making them for you. Um, do you love the deep dives? Do you like going into these businesses and getting insights that you wouldn't typically get on the traditional, you know, here's the 3 tips type of show? We want to know what's one of the topics you want to hear, so email me at askmike@mikemichalowicz.com. Tell me what questions you have or suggest a guess. We want to hear. And don't forget to subscribe. So whatever podcast you're listening on, subscribe now. Please give us a rating and review. We'd appreciate it. We'll see you next week.

Yeah, and if you guys— just really quick, if you guys haven't checked out Bess on Instagram, she's got a really awesome Instagram.

So find her on Instagram.

Yes, she does. Okay, cool. Do that too.

All right.

Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, just to add to that, it's imcannabess.com. For her website.

Now, now we can go.

Bye.

Bye.