In this interview, host Mike Michalowicz talks with Kevin Muno, founder of Perennial Pastures, about his regenerative, direct‑to‑consumer protein business and how he applied the Profit First financial system using the fintech platform Relay. Kevin explains that Perennial Pastures runs a 16,000‑acre ranch in California and coordinates a partner network of ranches across the United States, collectively managing roughly 5,000‑6,000 head of cattle (about 600 on his own ranch). The operation is certified by Regenified and follows regenerative agriculture principles—mimicking natural grazing patterns to rebuild soil health, which in turn produces healthier plants, animals, and nutrient‑dense meat. Kevin describes the practical benefits of regenerative grazing, the importance of soil health, and the market niche of nutrient‑dense, grass‑fed beef. He recounts discovering Profit First through Mike’s book, adopting Relay’s fintech tools (multiple accounts, auto‑transfer rules, debit cards with spend limits), and how these features simplify cash‑flow management and enforce disciplined profit allocation. Kevin notes that after implementing Profit First, his focus shifted to cost control and profitability, leading to sustained growth and higher profit awareness. The conversation also touches on Relay’s early‑stage product development, Kevin’s feedback to the team, and his wish for higher‑interest savings options within the platform.
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Kevin, I appreciate doing this. We were connected through Relay. Lenny's my contact there. I'm not sure who—
Yeah.
Oh, you did? Okay.
How long you been using?
And okay. Yeah, that's the crew, man.
That's right.
How long you been using them?
About a year now. Close to a year.
And I would love to learn a little about your business. All I know is they said, Mike, you got to talk with Kevin of Perennial Pastures. You wouldn't believe what he's done with Profit First. And I'm like, I just want to talk to you. So sure, tell me about your business.
We're a regenerative, uh, direct-to-consumer protein business. We also ranch ourselves too, so we're in the regenerative agriculture space. And, uh, yeah, we saw nutrient-dense meat online. And, uh, we're out of California. We ranch, uh, 16,000 acres here in California. We have a partner ranch network, uh, nationwide of ranches that produce as well to this regenerative standard. We're certified by a company called Regenified, which is a leading regenerative agriculture certifier. And yeah, we have a passion for Healing soil, building community, and nutrient-dense foods.
What does it mean specifically to be regenerative? I'm just not familiar with that term.
Yeah, fairly new. We now know that we can actually build soil health and build ecosystems. So regenerative agriculture, simplest terms, is just mimicking nature with your agriculture practices. So in a ranching context, All you're doing is moving the cows around the landscape like bison or buffalo have moved across grassland landscapes for thousands of years. So instead of having like wolves and lions and hyenas like all around these animals, like constantly moving them and constantly having them dung and urinate on certain areas and eating it, you're doing that with like electric fencing or herding. And it's the grazing and the timing of the grazing and the recovery is what builds the soil. So it's not sustainable, right? Like, we don't want to be in sustainable marriages, you know, we want to be in regenerative marriages, right? Like, to sustain an already degraded resource— we've degraded our soils massively— that's no fun. Like, we want to regenerate degraded resources.
So, oh, that's so smart. So it's about movement of the, the cows, cattle. Does that mean It means better soil. Does that mean that the, the grasses, the materials that they're eating is healthier, therefore they're healthier? Or how's that translate?
Exactly. Yeah. It all translates. So starts with soil health, healthier soil, healthier plants, healthier plants, healthier animals, healthier animals, and healthier foods.
Oh, that is, dude, that is fascinating. How many cattle do you have? Just to gimme context.
We have about 600.
Okay.
Great.
So to me, that's pretty substantial. Maybe not the biggest provider, but that's pretty substantial.
Yeah, that's just our ranch too. And again, we're a partner ranch network. So like within our network, there's probably 5,000 or 6,000 head, which is decent. Okay. But we're still very small in terms of like the global or national meat marketplace. Most of the product in the world is still grain fed, grain finished. Grass-fed, and then their grain finish.
Interesting. So I wanted to learn about your implementation of Profit First. How'd that even come about, and why did you use it?
I think I read your book, um, and I think— I forget who recommended it to me. I think it was another farmer, a fellow farmer rancher friend of mine, and read it, and it made a lot of sense to me, just kind of where I'm at in my arc as an entrepreneur. So then I just started Googling around. I was like, profit-first group banking, and then Relay came up. I was like, well, I really like my bank. I've been thinking about switching. Like, it's a great community bank, the one I was with. Good customer service and everything. Uh, but then saw a lot of benefits, uh, to, to the Relay side with the software and separate accounts and auto-transfer rules. Yeah. So sign up with them. That's been great. You know, we moved a decent amount of funds over. So I think they looked at that and they're like, who's this guy out of California? They invited me up for a webinar with the VP of product from Shopify and then the general manager from North America from Dextre, myself and Lenny. Yeah, it was like a panel. So it was good. It was fun to meet the whole team up there. Wow. To meet the CEO, but I forget what his name is.
But Joseph, Joseph West. Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's, that's, yeah, that's not typical, your experience with them. Uh, they don't typically—
Yeah, but yeah, they flew me up to Toronto, first time I've ever been there.
And yeah, how many banks do that?
Yeah, I was like, all right, that's pretty cool, you know. I was like, you know, and so I was like, good feedback and yeah, it's good to meet the team and learn where they're going with the product and Tell me, tell me what the, the, a couple of the features or benefits, because, uh, I love community banks.
I work with a community bank. I also have multiple Relay accounts because I love it even more. But I'm really more curious from your perspective, uh, what are kind of the wins? Why stay with Relay? Or how, what do they woo? How do they woo you besides the flight up to Toronto?
Yeah, yeah, I think they still have some work to do. I think they're early on in their product.
They are, they're They are.
Yeah. So, you know, what attracted me is just the focus on technology, that they're a fintech company on top of a community bank. Yeah. And early on, I actually had some struggles, so I got to meet the community bank as well, Thread. And my brother-in-law works in investment banking, so I got to like express some feedback on the product there early on. But we solved those, and then customer service has been great since. And they had me out. So I'm pretty invested in them now as like a client, right? It's like I told Lenny when I was out there, it's, you know, you can't just go meet Jamie Dimon or Chase. So anyway, so like I would say the auto transfer rules are big for me just to make that easy. I've actually kind of liked to just simplify my profit first thing. So I'm not a big like a ton of accounts guy, like maybe some folks are. Maybe my brain just works differently., but I like to keep it simple. And then again, the main thing for me is just the auto transfer and then just working off your expenses. Yeah. So that's one. I don't know. I mean, very easily creating debit cards is nice for people too, and the ability to like freeze and put spending limits and like very easily kind of get folks on board. And that's also very nice too.
Yeah, I think those are the two big ones for me. The debit card allows you to contain expenses so I can't frivolously spend because, you know, I mean, and the auto transfer to me is like a 401(k) for my own business. It just packs the money away without even me thinking about it. Yeah.
What I want them to do is like if there's an ability to do like an auto wire transfer to an outside bank that earns 5% interest.
Yeah, I don't know. Does that— I don't know if that exists yet, but there are definitely—
I don't know. No, it doesn't. But that's what I'm saying. Like that, like it would be perfect if they Or if they could just have a 5% high-interest savings account so that you didn't have to like—
Yeah. Oh yeah, I think either— Dude, you got to get back up to Toronto and crack some skulls.
I think so. Yeah, set up a meeting and have them pay for your flight. No, no, I won't do it this time. But there's a nice steakhouse up there that I like that was really close.
They better have been providing lean, healthy, regenerative protein.
I just want to say it wasn't, but hey, beef is beef and it's still very nutrient-dense. So, and we don't like necessarily lean, like, you know, fatty beef is good.
I, you know, I actually, I prefer fat. I'll be honest. I prefer fatty myself.
Okay. Good. Good.
Good.
I'm leaning with you. That's okay, man. Fat's okay.
Yeah, I agree. I 100%.
I'll give you some documentaries to watch. Oh, good, good.
Yeah. Listen, I love the taste of fat, the, the fat, the flavor. So you got me. Yeah. But I'd love to see those. Last question for you. This is always my big one when it comes to Profit First. Prior to Profit First versus after Profit First, are you more profitable and how's that going?
Yeah, I mean, definitely it's focusing on, you know, letting us focus on the cost and putting that pressure kind of on the cost. When you take that profit out first, you really got to be like, okay, what, you know, can my business survive on? So I definitely say thinking about it a lot more, you know, we're a high-growth company, so that's like the balance for me, right? Yeah. Talk about that in the book. Yeah. How much do you— but if you're, you're still doing the disciplines, you're still like taking it out of the profit side to reinvest. So again, it's kind of the mental side of things.
So good, good. So you're, so you're, you're— what I'm hearing is your profit has increased and has growth sustained or you continue to grow the way you want?
We continue. Yeah, we're continuing to grow. Yeah.
Yeah, that's what I wanted to hear. Yeah.
Good.
Hey, Kevin, I know this was impromptu. It's our second attempt to get online. I appreciate you doing this. Thanks for these insights, man.
