ADHDers In Business, Burnout, Hyperfocus, Transitioning Struggles & More (ADHD Series) - Kim Raine

Welcome to the Longevity and Lifestyle Podcast. I am Claudia von Boeselager, your host, here to uncover the groundbreaking strategies and tools for you to be at your best every day. If you want to get top tips, insights, and strategies from me on optimizing your life, health, and business, grab my weekly newsletter by going to llinsider.com. Today, my guest today is Kim Raine. Kim is an entrepreneur's ADHD performance coach, author of Square Pegs: Self-Discovery for Women with ADHD, the creator of ADHD Business Mastery, the founder of ADHD Business Collective, and the proud and relieved owner of a late ADHD diagnosis. I love that. Kim helps ADHDers have more confidence, focus, and success in business by overcoming procrastination, eliminating overwhelm and banishing burnout so that they can move their businesses forward with systems and strategies that work best with ADHD brains. She has spent the last 17 years running successful coaching businesses, empowering clients to prioritize their physical and mental well-being so they can reach their full potential. Welcome, Kim, to the Longevity and Lifestyle Podcast. Such a pleasure to have you here today and clearly very needed.

Thank you for having me. Thank you.

Kim, I'd love to start with your beautiful story and journey. You were only diagnosed later in life with ADHD. What are some struggles you faced along the way that you could attribute, looking back now, to ADHD?

I think like lots of people, when that moment came, when you suddenly go, oh, okay, and then suddenly all these pieces start to make more sense. And I'm not going to say fall into place because I think that still takes a journey, but they start to fall into place and they start to make more sense. And so for me, ADHD found me really through my work. So I was working with high-flying women predominantly who were not dissimilar to yourself, like what you do, you know, struggling with their performance. They just wanted to be better and maybe they disregarded their health or they were struggling with burnout. I mean, that was becoming huge. Confidence and everything that kind of goes along with that. So I was working with these women and one of my clients who was an extremely successful lady, she was the global head of talent for a huge company that you would all know, big media company, said to me, I think I've got ADHD. And in my head, my reaction was, hmm, because I thought as so many people think, like my vision straight away of ADHD was the naughty boy in the classroom being disruptive, etc. And so I was inquisitive, but I was also a bit like, hmm, that's interesting. So then she went on a bit of a journey and as a coach I went on some of that with her and then other things started to happen and I started to think, oh, this could be my daughter. And then another client got diagnosed, another client who I'd worked with for a long time. What would happen with these clients was it would be like there was always an elephant in the room, but you didn't quite know. You knew there was an elephant there, but you couldn't quite grasp what it was because when we were coaching, they would be great, but outside of that, they would struggle. And so with this one particular, the next client, I really did go on that entire journey with her through having known her for a long time before into diagnosis, et cetera. And, um, of course, as I was doing it, I was just recognizing myself. And I said to my husband one day, I read out a list of, you know, time, emotional dysregulation, distraction, impulsivity, all of the things. And actually was thinking of my daughter at that point. I'm sure we'd talk about it, but you spend a lot of time looking for an answer. I think a lot of women have spent that time. And I was doing that for my daughter. So anyway, I, I read out this list and I said to my husband, who does that sound like? And I was so excited and he went, you. He said, that's you. And I was like, oh. And it just kind of went from there. But it was at a time when I was coming into my perimenopause, struggling. In fact, I wasn't struggling, I was just more aware of that. And although I'd always been more prone to burnout since my late 30s, I was having longer burnouts. They were becoming more inconvenient and more troublesome. And along with that had come like this real overwhelm, constantly feeling overwhelmed and experiencing, you know, anxiety that I knew was just coming at strange times for no— not for no apparent reason, but I just— my head would just go and go and go all the time.. And so I kind of self-diagnosed probably around the beginning of the pandemic. And then I didn't really get a diagnosis. But what also happened at that same time was, as I'd gone through this now with my clients, and now obviously I've got ADHD, so I'm like hyper-focused reading everything I can, really sucking everything up. I started to see it in other clients as well. And, and you know, it's not, I'm not a psychiatrist, it's not for me to go pointing my finger, but if someone's work with me and continually struggling. And I can see, you know, it's just this overwhelmed, frazzled, burnt out and just kind of can't quite— they get it and then it just goes through their fingers again. And like one of the ladies was like 62, 63 and had been seeing, you know, a psychiatrist for years. And she said to me, well, no, Kim, she said, because my psychiatrist would have picked that up. And I said, well, let's just have a conversation with him because she had general anxiety disorder, was about to— they were looking at a bipolar diagnosis. And I said, let's just have the conversation. And from there she came back a week later and said, he's going to refer me. And 6 weeks later she said, I've got ADHD. And so, you know, that journey for me was quite— I was learning so much because I was learning from what I was reading from the textbook books, but anecdotally. And I say now, you know, I've been coaching 17 years officially, as in went and got qualified or, you know, went and did my ADHD certification was about 18 months ago, unofficially coaching ADHD probably for 5 years in that journey. But unknowingly, I could see I've been coaching it in some women for 17 years, you know, it was coming up. So yeah, that was kind of how it all came about.

What was the biggest aha moment or some of the biggest insights when you got your diagnosis? What were the changes then that happened for you?

So I was in the camp for a long time that I didn't really need a diagnosis because I knew what I had. I knew what I was doing. And then came the point of also wanting to do my work. And I just, I just wanted to know then. And once I got the diagnosis, I didn't think it would make a difference, but it does make a difference. And I really encourage women to investigate a diagnosis. I have a lot of women get in touch with me going, I don't know if it's worth getting a diagnosis. I don't think I need a diagnosis. For me. It showed me a few things I could see. I mean, like, looking back was just— it was everywhere, you know, in my life. I could just see so many times, impulsive times. Some of it was good. It wasn't all bad, you know. And actually, I could see the good ADHD part, but I could also see the parts where, yeah, it had cost me in various areas. And I remember saying to my husband one day, I was telling a story. And I said, oh, oh my gosh, that was ADHD. And he said to me, Kim, everything isn't suddenly ADHD. And I said, well, but it is to me. I said, it is to me because I was 48 at that point. And I think that time between self-diagnosis and official diagnosis, there's a lot of gaslighting. There's a lot of, you know, oh, but am I, maybe I'm just a bit lazy. I just need to pull myself together. All of that sort of stuff. So once I got that. I really started going and I said to Miles, I said, it is to me because now every memory I have, everything that comes up, I'm now looking at through a completely different lens. So it can be quite a barrage. One of the things for me was in my business, you know, I could see how many times I would start projects and I wouldn't finish them because something else would have come along and I'd have gone down that road. And, you know, I would take things to a certain level and sometimes have success. I certainly had had more success in my 30s than I had done in my 40s when the perimenopause started to kick in. And I could see where I would— had gone down various routes, but I could also see it in my eating. You know, there's a high correlation with ADHD and eating disorders. And I could certainly see— now I've never had an eating disorder, but I have had very disordered eating my entire life. You know, I was 18, I was a size 18, I would constantly wanting sweet stuff. And then even going on and going into my own career, which is in fitness and wellness to start with, even though I would be eating more healthily, I would still not be able to stop eating. I would graze like a cow all day long and I wouldn't be hungry. There was no hunger there at all. Sometimes I could be sat at my computer and next thing I know I'm down at the fridge snuffling around to see what's available. And then I come back and I'm halfway through the sentence in an email. And I'd gone off, I would give myself such a hard time about it because I would think, why do I keep doing this? Because I was never hungry. So I never enjoyed a meal because I would have eaten so much this way during the day. So that was a big eye-opener for me because it's something that had really plagued me. I wouldn't enjoy food. I would just use it as my distraction, I suppose, like somebody might go and smoke or something. It's just that impulsive thing to go and do.

Do you think it was distraction or do you think it's like the dopamine hit or—

with regards to the food?

Food.

Yeah. In later life, I think it was the distraction and the impulsivity and the need to do something, the need to move, the need to maybe get up and change my energy. But in my younger years, I think it was very much about the dopamine, very much about the dopamine, because the food that I would choose was those quick fixes and quick hits. And, you know, when you look at levels of obesity in ADHDers, We are more prone to type 2 diabetes. There's a lot that goes on because we have this constant need to fill up, to get those highs. And then as I got older and became more into my exercise, you know, my thing is weightlifting and strength training is my number one thing. And so that it wasn't about the sugar, but I still think it was about the needing to do something.

I think that's a really, really interesting statement. So I think for my audience that have. Maybe even family members suffering with eating disorders or obesity or type 2 diabetes. So just have a look with sort of fresh eyes to think, you know, could this be undiagnosed ADHD and just a bit of self-care and compassion that it might be something else that's been untreated for many years as well. So thank you for sharing that.

I think that's definitely the case as well with a lot of mental health. Recently, a lady who I'd known for a while and had constantly spoken to me about her anxiety and her general anxiety disorder and et cetera, et cetera. And then, you know, she follows me on Instagram and hears what I'm saying. And then one day she said to me, Kim, I think I might have ADHD. And I was like, yeah, I think you might have too. And, you know, she's now on this journey. And she said to me, she said, I get it now. She said, I thought that anxiety was the cause, but anxiety is the symptom. There's another layer down as to what the cause is, and ADHD is it's like 50% chance that you're going to have some kind of coexisting diagnosis. So it can be the real root. And I think that's why the relief can be so great when you find out.

I think so too, because the beauty is that nowadays there's so many tools and strategies, what you can do after. It's not just having a diagnosis to have a diagnosis. And I saw a statistic yesterday that 50% of ADHDers also have some form of autism as well, a previous Podcast guest who was talking about ADHD said a researcher came to her and said that 70% of the people in a workplace are neurodivergent of some sort, that only 30% are actually neurotypical. Yet we try to be neurotypical, right? Doesn't actually make much sense. My kids today in school, as we record today on the 16th of March, they're celebrating neurodiversity and how divergent it is as well. So I'm so happy to see this sort of positive trend. We have these stereotypes in our head. In my research, I found a UK study and I'll just read it here because I want to talk a little bit about ADHD coaching for people in business. 60% of adults with ADHD surveyed said they had lost or changed a job because of their ADHD symptoms. And more than 36% reported having 4 or more jobs in the past 10 years. And 6.5% responded that they had 10 or more jobs within the past 10 years. This is according to the ADHD Awareness Coalition. Finding the right career and asking for some minor accommodations on the job can be the keys to achieving success in the workplace. And so if people listening and watching are someone who feels like they've failed because they haven't held down the same job for 10, 15, 20 years, well, there might be an underlying reason that you haven't thought about yet. So I'd love to explore a bit more about the work you're doing as an ADHD coach for entrepreneurs. Can you expand on how you help your clients specifically with ADHD really thrive in the workplace, either if they're working for themselves and managing people or in different work environments?

I do think that coaching is really critical for ADHDers. I really do believe that because I think that there are parts like where you say about having had so many different careers and, you know, in the entrepreneurial space, well, In some ways, that's part of our beauty is that we're ingenious. We come up with new ideas. We're dynamic. We can change quickly. We can do all of these things that can also be our downfall as well. And it can also mean we can get bored in jobs. I remember saying before, you know, about a business I had, if this was a job, I would have left years ago. I just would never have stayed in one place for that amount of time. It would just have bored me. That was the truth. So I think there's that side to it. I think that there's a part of us that will always be looking for the next thing. And so actually sometimes it's not necessary that you've left the job, it's just that you've got bored and you want to move on. Now that in some ways can be a good thing, but in other ways it can mean that you don't actually ever climb or you don't build the business or you don't get to the place where you actually could be because you kind of go off on these tangents. So I think when I work with entrepreneurs, it's really first of all is getting to the heart of what they're passionate about and what they want and what their strengths are as well. Because when we are in flow, when we are playing to our strengths, and some of the people that I work with, they really struggle with that question. What are your strengths? What are the things that you are good at? Because they've spent their lifetime feeling and looking around at others and thinking, you know, I'm not good enough, or how do I keep missing that deadline? Why can't I get this right? Why do I keep forgetting that? And so it can be really difficult. So I think the first thing is for us to think about where we are in flow and where our strengths are. Because when we are playing to our strengths, the chemistry in our brain changes, you know, dopamine, the excitement of getting up and doing something that you're passionate about fires up your brain. If you're getting up and going to an office where you are doing something that you don't like, or you're in an environment that isn't safe, or you feel judged or any of those things, you know, you're going to find that your ADHD symptoms are going to be more symptomatic. And that's probably in the home and all sorts of environments. You know, we need certain environments to feel calm and to feel in flow. And then when we do, we can go to that superpower, you know, the hyperfocus part of it, but that can be deadly as well. I'm sure we talk about that if not used in the right way. So that's the first thing I think to make sure that you're playing to your strengths. The second thing is self-compassion as well. Like if you had lots of different jobs, then now you're probably understanding why, and we aren't great at tying up loose ends. So with my guys, I really get out of them where we really want to be going and then to create a really simple plan. I call it setting the sat nav of like, okay, this is what we really want and this is how we get there. But what can happen is because of our executive functioning, everything can come in as equally as important to us. Then we can get overwhelmed as to what's the important stuff that's going to move the dial forward. What's the stuff that's just going to maybe make us feel good, like ticking off to-do list. So it's then having that plan and structure and strategy and then making sure that you are constantly checking in with it. And if it needs recalibrating, then fine. But is this because something more interesting has come along, or is this because actually that needs to be a part of the plan? And then giving, you know, we're verbal processors. So it's having someone that you can take that space to work through ideas and what's working and what's not, and come up with ideas and strategies. And I think that there are lots of strategies that we can use. We can use brown noise. It's vital to make sure that your environment isn't cluttered. If you are struggling at work, you can use noise-cancelling headphones, speak to the HR department. There's so much support there now to move forward. But we can have all these strategies, but actually, like you were just saying about neurodiversity. Neurodiversity is so diverse and there's so many aspects to any one person. So actually, it's not assuming that the strategy that works for somebody else is going to work for you. So it's really about getting to know yourself and think, where do I work best? What is the environment got to be like? What do I need? What do my conditions need to be like? And how am I best supporting myself? And because the other side to it is ADHD is something that you can't cure, right? If you're lucky enough that medication works for you or that you can get medication or you want to try medication, not everybody does, then fantastic. But actually there's also, and even if you are taking medication, there's things that we can be doing to support our brain outside of our work that have a huge impact on our work. One of the best things that we can do is exercise. 30 minutes of exercise in the morning. Or before your working day can give you 2 to 3 hours of focus. And then maybe getting up at lunchtime rather than what I was saying of like, keep going down to the fridge every 5 minutes, actually going out and firing up my brain for 15 minutes of just walking as fast as I can around the block or going and dancing to some music or doing things that are going to wake me up and fire me up. Prioritizing my sleep. And this is a big one. The fun that I'm having in my life because I don't know anybody that works as hard as ADHDers. You know, in my experience, like the burnout is a real issue, but that hyperfocus that can keep us just feeling like we need to keep going and going and going and going and that drive. And I can sometimes speak to business owners that have said, oh, they don't leave the house for days because they're so fixated on what they've got to do, or they've got this project or this launch. And ultimately what happens then is a burnout, a breakdown, a meltdown. Something will go, or just basically apathy. And you're like, oh, I don't really care about it anymore anyway.

I'm laughing and smiling because I have these moments and things too, and it's so funny to hear it from somebody else and just going like, okay, that was what I was doing there.

Yeah, and me too, you know, me too. And I think that I've had them a lot in the past, far more than I do now, but I'm not going to sit here and tell you that I don't have those times myself. But I have better strategies that I know work for me. And definitely I know that when my self-care is good, when I'm getting enough sleep, a lot of ADHDers will have this burst of energy at the end of the day. Do you get it? Yeah. I can tell.

Like, oh, finally it's so calm and quiet. I can finally do these things that I wanted to do.

Peace at last. Exactly. And you can think and the house is quiet and there's no pings and notifications. But the other side of that is what quite often is happening is your hormones, where your cortisol should be nice and low and your melatonin should be nice and high and you're preparing for sleep. What you do is you pop your screen on or you get your brain buzzing and that gets instantly changed around. So your cortisol goes higher, your melatonin goes low. Now you feel like the Energizer Bunny. Now you've got all the energy as though it's 6 o'clock in the morning and you can go and go and, and you're laughing and I'm sure like you're the same, but I used to be like, oh my God, this is fantastic. And I would do it night in and night out through a lot of my 30s. And I didn't get away with it all the time. I got away with it most of the time. Things are very different in my 40s, but also I understand that now. So, you know, rather than getting to the end of the day when you get this feeling and you've got a looming deadline of the end of the day, so that fires us up. We love a deadline. So that feeling of urgency creates again those chemicals for us. And suddenly we can do all the things in 24 hours that we should have been doing for the last week. And we have the same sort of effect at the end of the day. So actually it's just understanding that. Now for me, I think, okay, so therefore, and for a lot of my clients, I don't talk about— we go back a few steps and it's like, what needs to be in place to make sure that you're not going to be in that place? Because by the time that cortisol kicks in, it's too late, you're gone. So it's just thinking, okay, what are my nighttime routines? So I'm a big advocate of looking after yourself outside and nutrition as well, eating diets that are rich in protein because protein's a precursor to serotonin, to dopamine. It really does help fire up our neurotransmitters. And for so many of us, our diets tend to be higher in the carbohydrates than they are in the fats and the protein. And those are the two things that our bodies really need. I mean, we need the carbs as well, but very often we are going for quick fixes and quick hits of energy. So there is lots that you can do that actually will have a huge effect on your work. But that isn't in the workplace, but you're creating this terrain whereby, and foundation whereby, okay, now I can start thinking about implementing some of the strategies as opposed to not having that done, being at work, trying to implement the strategies and just getting more and more overwhelmed.

That's really powerful. I think just for people to realize is you have to set the foundation with the sleep, the nutrition, the exercise. There's a lot of tools around and then look at refining strategies in the workplace as well, because especially with ADHD, like working in, you know, these open space offices where people are on the phone around you and stuff. I mean, it's so tricky for ADHDers to just like zone in and focus on something sometimes.

Certainly. So as well, it is looking at what's in your eyeline and speaking to people, you know, could you have a desk that's in the corner of the office as opposed to right in the middle of the office? And most places are going to try and accommodate because they want to get the best from you. You know, if you're sat next to the photocopier and people are coming and going all day long, the ADHD part of me would be like, brilliant. Let's, yeah, I'll be chatting to everyone, but actually Every time we have to stop, one of the problems our lack of executive functioning causes is the ability to transition from one task to another. So it's also looking at, okay, how often are you having to transition? So if you are somewhere where everyone's coming or you're the tea and coffee place and people in or something's going on, it's, it's not even distraction, it's observation. We're highly, highly observant. You know, the saying is we don't have a deficit of attention. That is not our problem. It's completely the opposite. So actually the time transitioning, that can then take us even longer to get back to the task. So the less transitions we have to do, whether it's between tasks or whether it's because we're getting less disruptions, the better. So anything that can minimize that for you as well, and batching together, you know, your tasks. So for example, I have certain days when I coach and I have certain days when I work on my business, because when I used to try and mix the two, I'd think, oh, okay, I'll have a coaching client in here and a coaching client here. And I've got an hour there, so I'll just get those emails done. I didn't. I would go make a cup of tea, look out the window, scroll. I wasn't utilizing my time properly because there's just too many transitions.

An area I've been digging into over the past year is around the concept of deep work and getting into flow state. You need to be in this creative flow because that's when our genius comes out. So particularly for ADHDers and people who are highly distractible, to rearrange your schedule and clear it up and just batch things in ideally 3, 4-hour time blocks if and when possible. Can you talk a bit more about burning out as an ADHDer and why is this happening and what are signs that people listening and watching should look out for?

I could talk forever about burning out as an ADHDer. I think I wrote an email a while ago now to say, you know, I almost feel like ADHD should be ADHD or something because the burnout is a huge part. I haven't yet come across an ADHDer that hasn't struggled with burnout, particularly if later in life. But even, you know, I look back and I can see myself, like my mum used to say to me, I see it in my daughter that, you know, you can go and go and go. And then I would just need 24 hours where I would sleep as a child and a teenager. They were my mini battery recharges. So the thing with burnout is first and foremost is, you know, I sometimes think with that ADHD is burnout's almost hyperfocus gone wrong. You know, we've been so go, go, go, go, go. There's also the fact a lot of women and adults, the hyperactivity turns inwards. So it is less physical. So you are expending less energy. So a lot of it is cognitive and it's inside of you. And so it gives you this constant need to be driving and doing and being everywhere and doing everything. And add to that the fact that we are more sensitive. You know, it's been proven we feel pain more physically. And emotionally, we take a lot longer to recover from emotional pain and hurt and the rejection sensitivity. Our nervous systems are really, really sensitive and it's very easy to exhaust a nervous system. That's kind of usually the first sort of thing that can go even from overexercising. So we are really susceptible, really prone to it, and we have to be mindful of it, aware of it, and know to recognize the signs. Sometimes when we're in hyperfocus, it can be really difficult to recognize the signs until that big sign comes that, you know, bops you on the nose. But I think the things to think about is how you're feeling in your body, in yourself. How do you feel when you wake up in the morning? Those first few thoughts of your day, are they, oh my God, I just can't fit it all in. How am I gonna do this all? Instead of like my yoga teacher used to say, you know, we're not human doings, we're human beings. And. It's not just ADHD, it's the society we live in. So it's recognizing how you are waking up in the morning when, you know, those first thoughts of the day and what your diary looks like and then noticing your energy in yourself. So if you are feeling more tired, feeling more snappy, lethargic, you know, it's okay to lean into that. I now totally understand that we're sprinters. If I sprint and I do this properly, it works. Like a child, but what I used to do was think I was running a marathon and apply it. And it just doesn't work because I would burn out before I even got to the finish line. And I see that a lot in ADHDers in business. Very often they can just burn out before they even get to the finish line. It can be really hard, but I think this again is working with a coach or a community or somewhere where you understand that actually it's safe and it's okay to take time out. And it's okay to step back and actually it's more than okay. It's absolutely critical. But you just said about, you know, our creative minds, unless we have some peace or some space in our minds, then we end up with all the tabs open and there is no creativity. It's very hard to be creative. And I've been in the situation whereby you're trying to create something, you know, maybe a product or, you know, I work online. So there's a lot of online launching and all of this. Stuff and suddenly there's no creativity, you can't do it and you become more and more frustrated with yourself. And so actually then you push yourself even harder, but instead of actually being in that amazing peak state of hyperfocus where you are smashing it out and it's good and it's flowing, actually the brakes are on and you're just bang, bang, bang, and it's just not working. But you have still got your foot to the floor. You know, you're still sat at your desk for all day and you're still burning the midnight oil and, you know, skipping the workouts and all of those things and actually really not going anywhere fast unless we have those times of space. The creativity can get really stifled. And so I've been in that position so many times and then suddenly you step back and you give the space and then comes the creativity and the clarity to do things and make the right decisions. And now when I work with clients, you know, I really get them to understand the value of self-care and to take time out. And at first it can be extremely difficult for them, extremely difficult to even say, right, can you take a morning off this weekend? And they're like, okay, all right. And very often, you know, or a day, and they'll come back and they'll go, I didn't know what to do with myself. I hated it. I absolutely hated it. And it's really uncomfortable for them because what's happened is very often if we stay in that marathon mindset of I'm just going to keep going, keep going, keep going, what happens is our nervous system and our energy gets used to feeling that way. It gets used to that buzzing energy in our body. And so actually when we stop, it feels so uncomfortable, just doesn't feel comfortable in our bodies. And so it's not a pleasant experience and often they really struggle with it. So, you know, we do it bit by bit, but Eventually, and you know, one client sticks into mine, then she texts me, you're not going to believe it, I'm going away for the weekend. I'm not even going to take my laptop. And this took a year. It's taken a year to get her to this place where she's now like, has a Friday off and did that. And her business is flourishing. And so is she. It can be a real leap of faith and it can be quite uncomfortable if you have got used to operating in that space where you are frazzled, basically.

I totally know this. It's so funny allocating this to ADHD. I always thought I was just so super driven. I had to have my 3 master's. Degrees and speaking 4 languages and it was never enough, never enough and always had to do more and I would feel unproductive. I'm not utilizing my time well. It's so tiresome, this constant pushing, which up until mid-30s was somehow manageable and doable and I just had all the energy and everyone's like, how do you do it? I'm still on that path of rewiring the neural pathway and actually realizing the exponential benefit to my whole wellbeing, my mental health, my productivity, my business, whatever it is in my life. Being a parent, etc., to actually taking that time to recalibrate and just having that sort of productive downtime by not being productive, just shifting away, not thinking of the to-do list. So that totally resonates also. So I appreciate you sharing.

I think the other thing is that it can sometimes seem so overwhelming that you're going to have to do that. So like you mentioned yoga, so one client comes into my mind and I was like, you know what, you don't have to do yoga, but each morning I just want you to go and sit on your mat. That's all you have to do is just go and sit on your mat. And if you stay there for 2 minutes or 20 minutes, it's okay. And actually with us, it's again, it's that transitioning, it's that getting started. Very often we think, oh my God, I've got to go into an hour and a half yoga now of standing around doing nothing. I've got so much to do and blah, blah, blah. So that immediate like, no, we're not going to do it. Actually, if you think, you know, I'm just going to go and sit on my mat and see what happens, chances are you're going to do a session of yoga, be it again 10 minutes, be it an hour, you're going to get moving, but you have to take it there slowly. One other thing that I just wanted to mention about burnout, because I've experienced this as well and I see it a lot, is that then what can happen when you get back on an even keel, when you get yourself back, the other thing that I've seen happening is you then have a tendency that you will hold yourself back because of the fear of burning out again. And a lot of people, women that I work with, have been to kind of like rock bottom sort of burnout. So I've been there for sure. I can think of one real time, and it took months and months and months and months to recover. Well, in fact, I think it took a good 2 years to get back on to any level. And then the fear of what if that happens again? If I push myself too far, if I stretch too far, what if that happens again? And so actually then they're playing small and keeping themselves small with the fear of what if that happens again? So the ultimate outcome is to learn you can do it, but you have to play by some rules. And the rules are You can't do it all the time. You pick and you either side of it, you absolutely prioritize your self-care. But if you know there's a window whereby, you know, you're having a busy month, but you put other things in around it, you're probably going to smash it.

I love that as well. And building those buffers in on the other side. So if you work in that more sprint type of business with launches, and then if you can build in the self-care during that sprint phases. So thank you for sharing that around burnout because It's so painful. And I think it happens especially for people wired that they have to do more. Burnout just doesn't fit into that equation very well.

No. And it could come with real shame as well, like real shame and embarrassment.

So what are some strategies you recommend to overcome procrastination?

First of all, are you procrastinating because you're not interested? You know, we struggle if we're not interested in what we're doing. We really, really struggle to do it. And even if it's important, we probably struggle even more. And that's one of the things that neurotypical people can do important things they don't want to do. We really, really struggle with that. So it's first of all, understanding the tasks that you are going to struggle with. And there's a couple of things. So I have in my membership, we have body doubling sessions or, you know, co-working sessions as well, whereby actually we'll get on the call, we'll all be together, no one will be talking, everyone will be working, but Body doubling is something that's been proven to work really well for ADHDers. I say proven, anecdotally proven. There's a lot of anecdotal evidence around it. I looked and I haven't found any sort of research around it as such yet, but a lot of anecdotal evidence. So even if that's something whereby you may notice that you find easy to do tasks when somebody's in the house, it gives us that bit of extra accountability. So those sorts of things, but also again, it's your environment. So I have a process as well. You know, it's taking a moment to pause to think about actually, are you procrastinating? Because sometimes procrastination can be protection. You are burning out. I can't do this anymore. I'm not doing it. So no. And then you're beating it. What is wrong with me? Come on, come on, come on. And you know, the brain is just like, no, I'm darting them out of here. And then there's noticing other forms of procrastination, like perfectionism. Perfecting is huge procrastination. Planning can be procrastination. So very often most people don't sit there and think, oh, I'm really procrastinating, just doing nothing. They're usually doing something that feels good. So what can you do that is going to make you feel good and then maybe help you get on with the task? So it might be, okay, I have got to go and do my accounts this afternoon. I know I've got to do it. So another thing I do with my guys, I've just given them my group program, this homework this week is create yourself a feel-good playlist. Of the songs that lift you up, that make you feel good, that maybe remind you of good times, and put that on for 15 minutes. Procrastinate for 15 minutes, you know, around the house, procrastinating, you know, doing anything but the task, and then have your timer set and go to a space whereby you are clear of clutter. The door is shut. The phone— this is key— the phone is not in the room. Our phones are such a distraction for us. There's been so much research that even if it's on the desk next to you, you are going to pick it up far more than if it's out of your eyesight. So get it out of your line of sight if you can't get it completely out of your office. And the other thing is try not to multitask because that again can just be procrastination. It takes time for the transitions, makes everything harder, and using a timer. So I have like these timers that we use whereby you can see the time passing and actually say, do you know what, I'm going to put 20 minutes on the timer and I'm just going to start it. And I always say to my guys, right, all you have to do is 3 minutes. Or it's like the whole go to your mat thing. It's like, don't think about the task because what we do is we overestimate how long the tasks we don't want to do are going to take and we severely underestimate the tasks that we do want to do and we love and enjoy are going to take, which is why often sometimes we can get lost in doing stuff that's maybe not great and someone might be waiting for us like, come on, what are you doing? What are you doing? I'm just doing this. I'm just doing this. And then something like paying a bill online, which is probably a 5-minute task. If you sit and go, I'm going to only do that and I'm going to put a timer on, in our heads feels like, you know, oh, that's like 2 days or 2 hours. You know, I used to be like that with cleaning my bathroom. I had this thing in it that it would just be like a 3-hour job and it needed full you know, kit, everything. Whereas really I just need to go in and wipe a cloth around the sink. And but that's how our brains work.

Is there a particular ADHD timer that you recommend?

Um, I don't know what this one's called. This one is off of Amazon. Can you see if I just— so like you do that and it just shows you, and it's great for kids because you can see the time passing. Probably that's going to ping now, sorry. But you can see the time passing, so When I do my body doubling sessions in my membership, I will put the camera on that so that we're checking every 30 minutes and you can actually see the time passing. So it gives you an idea. You can use your phone, but again, if you can get off your phone as much as possible, they really are. I mean, we know for anybody how addictive phones are, how damaging they can be when, when there's no kind of boundaries around them. But for ADHDers, even more so. Social media is kryptonite for us. So anything that keeps you off your phone.

I actually found now that I have to during a day put my phone on silent and actually on focus mode. So I don't even have the notifications on the screen. And then when I choose to, I go and look at all the WhatsApp messages and all the different things. There's so many exciting things on the phone.

And, you know, these companies pay millions, billions to make sure that we are like that, though, you know, that getting a like gives us a little— I've got so many likes. I had a You know, I do a lot on social media for my business and marketing and eventually kicking and screaming, I started doing reels because my social media manager would go, Kim, reels, reels. And I'd be like, okay. And then we'd agree what I was going to do, put the phone down, and I just then couldn't do them anyway. I got out of my way, started doing reels. Great. And then you start getting views. And before I knew where I was, I was going in every 5 minutes. How many views has it got? How many likes has it got? And I just thought suddenly, What are you doing? This is taking up your whole day because it's so addictive. So yeah, now I'm the same. I don't have any notifications come up. I just go in and periodically.

You touched on before also around the hyperfocus that ADHDers have, and you were also mentioning about it being a superpower, but it can also negatively impact us.

Can you expand on that a bit more? So ADHD is paradoxical. When I write the book, I said to my mum, I said, oh, can you, um, see if you've got any old school reports of mine? And she phoned me up, she went, oh my goodness, Kim, you wait till you read these. And all over my school reports, it was just ADHD everywhere, all over them. But my problem at school, and I'm sure lots of people, is that I would have lessons that I would excel at. I would be, you know, I would be model student, Kim's this, Kim's that. So actually, then I would have other lessons where I would just not do very well at all. And I would be quite disruptive because, you know, I carried quite a lot of shame about— I didn't want to be a nasty person, but I was a pain in the butt. But I can remember I'd sit in class and I'd feel this energy coming up inside of me and it would just come out usually in a wisecrack or something like that. So one of the things said, Kim must resist the urge to fill silences with a wisecrack. And that's what I still struggle with. But what I'm saying is, is that so you have, you know, these 2 sides of everything. You know, you can have things that you do hyperfocus on and be amazing at, and you can have things that actually then you can't get any focus on whatsoever. And that can be really confusing for people around you because they're like, well, hang on a minute, you know, you're just not interested in doing X, Y, and Z, or you just can't be bothered or you're lazy. But then also we can have the hyperfocus like we just spoke about where it kind of goes wrong and it takes us over and You know, I say like then ADHD is kind of driving the bus. It's like, yeah, let's go, go, go and foot to the floor. Let's go, everyone. You can almost know that it's happening and your body and your energy is taken on with it and you have this really awful buzzing, not great energy that can then manifest itself in your body. So I think that, you know, when you understand it's going back to the sprinting metaphor again, when you understand that it can be really valuable and then it's knowing what you need to be able to create some hyperfocus. So, you know, how frustrating is it? I'm sure you've experienced this when you think, right, well, come on then, hyperfocus, I could do with you now, I need you now. And actually, hyperfocus is nowhere to be seen. Actually, it's looking at what can we do to improve our environment and going back to the things that we were saying before, you know, of making sure that we've got that environment, that we've got space, that we're maybe focusing on one thing as opposed to trying to do all the things and making sure that we've got a safe and quiet environment that, you know, we can really thrive in, that we don't feel judged and all of these things. But I think as well with hyperfocus for me, when I sort of think, okay, I really need to do this, I make sure that I've got space in my diary. I set aside the time and, you know, I will think actually I'm going to have a workout this morning or I'm going to go for a walk and then I'm going to have this time. And then it's all distractions off. And sometimes I have to kind of wait for the hyperfocus to catch me up. But I know the more I do towards it, the more I do to make sure that, you know, I'm doing something that I love and I'm passionate about. We can't have that all the time, but that even if what I'm doing I don't love and I'm not passionate about, but plays to the bigger picture, then I keep that in mind as well because that helps me think, do you know what, like So when I was writing the book, the first parts of the book were like easy peasy. I was so hyper-focused. My fingers were like, you know, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. I was like, this is great. And then comes editing and you think, okay. And I thought, right, I know this is going to be hard. I know this is not going to be my thing. It's tying up loose ends. Off it goes. And then it comes back and then it goes off and then it— and it was like a boomerang. And every time it came back, it just got harder and harder and harder. And, you know, hyper-focus was nowhere to be seen. And I can remember sitting there one day and just my whole body wanted to move. But in the end, what I had to use then was when hyperfocus wasn't around was like, actually, if you do this, you are going to have a published book. And you have to think about that to get you through as opposed to when hyperfocus is nowhere to be seen. It's like, okay, what's the bigger picture? What am I doing this for? And having that goal in mind, but definitely setting the environment is absolutely key as well.

That's really, really good advice. I'd love if you could share a bit more about your book, A Square Peg. So why did you write it in the first place and what do you share in the book?

I wanted to write a book and I knew that it was gonna be a coaching book. And I actually three-quarters wrote the book for women in menopause because that was kind of where I was and it was about burnout and all these things. And then along came this whole new experience, this whole unveiling of this part of my life and, and my client's life that I hadn't seen before. And so then I could see all these other things that were coming out and First of all, I remember thinking to myself, all right, okay, if I'm going to retrain as an ADHD coach, I feel like new stuff and everything. And then once I did it, I was like, oh, actually this is the same stuff. And what I was realizing was that the women that were getting diagnosed, there were so many stories, there were so many beliefs, there were so many strategies. There were good, bad habits, experiences that had come from living life with undiagnosed ADHD, you know, from never quite maybe fitting in or never quite keeping up and just this constant conversation and beliefs that would go around in your head. And so actually I then would use the coaching strategies, but now with the ADHD awareness, I've always been a believer in, you know, you've got to get rid of and reprogram some of those beliefs, look at the stories. So the book was very much to take women that had got a late diagnosis on that kind of journey of self-discovery. Of allowing them to sort of step back and think, okay, what's me and what's ADHD? And I say it's not the book to go for if you want the utmost latest science on ADHD. I'm not the person to do that. It's very much about what I know about ADHD, which we talk about, you know, why it's different in women. We talk about the differences in our brains, hormones, of course they play a huge part that make our symptoms so different, society and the expectations and all of those things. But yeah, so it is a book for women with ADHD as opposed to a book on ADHD. But I've had so much feedback from women that say, I've just cried my eyes through the first chapter, because suddenly they aren't alone and they can suddenly see that they are valid. And you know that, yeah, maybe it is something a bit more than just shortcomings in them, because a lot of ADHD traits and symptoms can also be like personality traits. You know, everyone's a bit disorganized sometimes, everyone's a bit, you know, can be a bit fiery or a bit forgetful, all of these things. But actually, when it's ADHD, it's on a different level. So yeah, it's been quite amazing really.

What are some bad recommendations that you hear in the ADHD space when clients come to you and you're like, Okay, that is bad advice. Don't, don't listen to that. What are some of the things that you've come across?

I've heard some stuff where clients have spent time, money, effort, energy invested in things that not knowing. So for example, like very often when clients come to me, they would have spent thousands on programs and courses, maybe within their business, maybe self-help, maybe health and wellbeing, where they're trying to find the answer. Again, I've done this, I've done everything, I'm the textbook. But, you know, and actually, so I've heard some stuff that's unfortunate with that. Like the other day, literally a lady that came on board as a new client, she spent thousands and thousands with a coach, and the coach had said to her, you know, you just don't want it badly enough, you just don't want it badly enough. And, you know, I said to this lady, where's your business page? Show me a thing. And she said, I haven't got one. She said, because that to me was— I just stopped at that point. So I think there's a lot of bad stuff, but then when you don't know, you don't know you've got ADHD, so you're gonna keep looking. And I think what is happening, and I think it's okay, but I think it needs to be very clearly defined, is that a lot of ADHD people are working with ADHDers in their chosen field, and that's great. But I think we need to be really aware of, if you know ADHD in yourself or your child, or you— it's neurodiverse, there is so many different factors. And actually It's understanding what ADHD really is. So I think that there's not necessarily bad advice, but I think that there's a danger of some people doing that and the lines getting blurred from being a therapist, a coach, a business strategist, whatever it is with ADHD compared to I'm an ADHD trained therapist, because that's something I think could get murky as things go on. But having said that, I'm all for those people sharing their experiences and serving those clients. As a community, but just, yeah, I hope that there's going to be more ADHD awareness training for people that can just go and find out how it presents across the board so that you are able to look at it from a bigger picture. I think there's also the other thing is this idea that if you go on medication, everything's going to be okay, because I think that can be really damaging. And I think that for a lot of people, it can be a real game changer and really life-changing. I've worked with some clients who've had terrible experiences on it, and probably it's not for them. And it can be really quite devastating when you get this diagnosis. You're going to get the medication, everything's going to be great, fantastic. And either it doesn't work or it works. But remembering that medication is only ever going to level the playing field, it's not going to give you an advantage. Where I trained, the saying is, you know, pills don't make skills. You would still want to be doing all the things that implementing the strategies, looking after the self-care and all of those sorts of things. So I think that's another thing that can be quite disappointing for a lot of people when they kind of get to that point. It can sometimes not be quite what you think it's going to be or not as amazing as you think it's going to be.

Thank you. Yeah, and I think that's really helpful for people to understand it's not the magic pill, right?

Yeah.

Like, oh, it's going to solve all my problems and everything's going to be great. Well, you still have to put in the work, you still have to manage it. And, you know, there's obviously side effects of medication as well. And as you said, it's not for everybody. So understanding what sort of the bouquet of options of strategies and tools are, trying them, and then I guess seeing what works really well. What are some of the learnings or insights that your clients you work with have found the most valuable, would you say?

So definitely self-compassion, validation. I think those are the two most powerful things. There is definitely like a grief cycle that you go through diagnosis. Some people don't have it that badly. Some people really struggle and there is a journey that you can go through. But, you know, I watch clients, it comes to a point where they do get into their flow because they become more accepting of who they are. So the conversation, you know, I've had clients say to me, I think I've just got a bit more ADHD since getting my diagnosis. Like my ADHD seems to have got worse. And what I've realized is in most cases it's not getting worse. It's just, A, you're more aware of it, but also you're more accepting of it. So when something happens, like you go to a meeting and someone says, oh, Kim, have you got those figures that you said you were going to bring in? You suddenly think, oh, I've not got the figures, I've not got the figures. Actually, you think, oh my God, bloody ADHD, you know, I haven't got those figures. Whereas before you might think, what is wrong with me? Why can't I pull myself together? This is so embarrassing. They're just going to think, oh, that's just typical of Kim. We all knew she wouldn't have the figures. The whole conversation in the head can be so different. And then I think that journey then continues to a point where you're then happy and confident turning around going, I'm really sorry, I haven't got the figures. Let me just go and get them. Because maybe you've already had the conversation, say you've been diagnosed with ADHD, maybe it's out in the open, you know, and you're comfortable with that. Now that takes another step for people, for a lot of people, not everyone. I remember saying to a client, well, I'm going to get a t-shirt and go on Instagram as soon as I get my official diagnosis. Like, hey, I'm ADHD and proud. And actually that is not how I felt at all. I actually thought, do you know what? I don't want to tell anyone at the moment. And I didn't for a little while. And I do say to clients that are going on that journey, actually, I think it's important to wait till you feel strong in yourself so that you are ready to advocate for yourself because it can lead to conversations with people that are going to turn around and go, as was my first reaction with my first— like, what do you mean you've got ADHD? You've not got ADHD. Or, you know, I hear this, oh, everyone's got ADHD. Oh yeah, but it's really fashionable now. Or, oh yeah, well, does it even exist? And it can be really hurtful and another chink in your armor when you've come to this person with this eureka. It might be a parent, a partner, a colleague. So I do say to people, actually, just wait till you're ready to advocate for yourself, because actually whatever that person says, they just don't know yet, you know, they just don't understand. But it can be quite helpful.

So Kim, for my listeners interested in understanding ADHD and also ADHD in the workplace better, what online resources and books would you recommend they start with?

Definitely start with my book if you're a female and you've just come to ADHD. I think it's probably quite a nice introduction, if you like. It's a bit of an all-rounder. I You know, one of my go-tos would be Ed Halliwell's books. So his latest one is ADHD 2.0. I think that's a really good book with some great science behind it. A real go-to. Sari Soldan, ADHD in Women, is a really amazing book. And, you know, I will say now that was a great read for me personally on my journey. It's, yeah, been phenomenal. Another one that I read who is an absolute someone I think the world of is Gabor Maté. Dr. Gabor Maté wrote Scattered Minds. It's a tough read and he doesn't pull any punches in terms of, you know, there's a lot of like ADHD is highly hereditary, which is nice and convenient. It's nice and easy. It's genetic. But actually he's more like, well, is there a gene, specific gene? And actually, is it more to do with your upbringing or how you've brought up your child? It's quite a raw look in some places. That book I read quite early on. In fact, that was the first book I read and it was my realization about my daughter. And most times I was in floods of tears to my husband, said, can you stop reading that book?

I know, because it brings up an emotional rollercoaster. I remember when I started down the rabbit hole with my daughter in September, because a pediatrician raised the question and I was reading things and it was really touching me emotionally. I'm like, why am I getting so upset about it? And I was like, you know, this is me. And I guess it was also sort of feeling the pent-up emotion from all the years of being tough on myself. I have to try harder, work hard, like I'm not perfect enough in this, and just this pushing and struggle. Well, I think that that really came through when I was reading all this literature as well. And I was like, why am I so upset about this? I was like, okay, interesting, right?

It's the amount of masking we all do as well. And not just women, men do as well. The things that we're constantly doing to cover up and to keep going.

So yeah. Yeah. So important. Where can people follow you and learn what you're up to? What are your social handles, your websites?

So Instagram, I'm the Entrepreneur's ADHD Coach, and I have a community on Facebook, ADHD Brains in Business. It's my Facebook group, so come over there. That's quite a good community, and there's always questions in there, and it's really growing. You know, it's full of ADHDers in business, so it's really dynamic. And then Kim Make Coaching is my website. You can come and find everything over there.

Wonderful. And we'll link all of those in the show notes. Kim, do you have a final ask, recommendation, or any parting thoughts or message for my audience today?

I think my parting message would be a tagline that I kind of came up with. I talk about this in the book, sat on a beach in LA when I really realized, you know, I, I spoke about not wanting to tell people about my ADHD when I actually got diagnosed.. And there was a moment in, on this beach and I was sat with, in a circle of 30 entrepreneurs, really high-flying, you know, 6 and 7-figure business owners, realizing how many of those people were neurodiverse and actually realizing that that was the point where I needed to step into my ADHD because they needed some help. They were all like, Kim, we need you. And actually realizing that ADHD is something that there is, I don't believe it's a superpower, but I think that there is a lot to be celebrated. And I think, you know, I suddenly realized that I was probably sat on that beach, you know, not in spite of my ADHD, but because of it. I was on a beach in LA doing business with these amazing— we'd been down Rodeo Drive all week and really we'd had this amazing time. And I just thought, my goodness me, if we don't start to really lean into and shine, you know, the light on the amazing things ADHDers can do, then, you know, I know for my daughter, for my grandchildren, I don't want them growing up in that world where ADHD is stigmatized. I get a lot of emails, or used to get, I'm not so many now, but, oh, I think my child has got ADHD, but I don't want to get a diagnosis. I don't want them to have the label. I think I've got ADHD, but I don't want the label. And I just remember thinking on that beach, it's about lose the label, wear the badge, particularly like yourself. And I said, like, all the amazing things we've done, the more you wear your ADHD badge, the more inspirational it's going to be for the next generations that hopefully won't need to read books like mine because the stories they'd have told themselves would be very, very different.

We're the badge for sure. So beautiful. And yeah, it's about making that shift now for the generations to come that this is a beautiful thing and neurodiversity is the way to go as well. Thank you so much, Kim, for coming on today and sharing all your wisdom and knowledge.

I really appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

Hi everyone, this is Claudia again. Before you take off, Would you like to get a short email from me with some short but sweet fun tips, tricks, and updates on all things longevity and lifestyle? This could be cool products that I've discovered, interesting posts or articles I've read, and other fun and helpful things around longevity and lifestyle I've found for you. It's a very short piece of inspiration for you a few times a month. So if you want to receive it, check it out by going to longevity-and-lifestyle.com. That's longevity-and-lifestyle.com, and leave your email to sign up for the next one.