Family Relationships, Happiness, & Grandparent Alienation

Hello, dearest listeners, and welcome to the Longevity and Lifestyle Podcast, where I invite pioneers and thought leaders in all things longevity and lifestyle to give us the strategies, tools and practices to live better and help us reach our highest potential. Today's episode is a slightly different one. One of the keys to longevity is happiness, which studies have shown can be obtained by good and meaningful relationships, amongst other contributing factors. In this episode, I wanted to shed light on a sad phenomenon, namely grandparent alienation. Our guest today is Amanda, the founder of the nonprofit Alienated Grandparents Anonymous, or AGA. Alienated Grandparents Anonymous focuses on the struggle millions of grandparents around the world suffer. AGA provides support, information, coping skills, and strategies for a hopeful reunification. In this episode, we talk about Amanda's personal experience that led her to founding AGA, the work and help AGA provides, success stories, and advice if you or a loved one may be in this situation. Particularly coming out of the COVID pandemic, I think it's important to realize one of the biggest issues will be mental health, loneliness, and need for human connection. Amanda shares with us the process to start the path to reconciliation and key strategies and tools people can use. Please enjoy.

Amanda, welcome to the Longevity and Lifestyle Podcast today. It's a pleasure to have you here with us. Amanda is the founder of the nonprofit Alienated Grandparents Anonymous, or AGA. I just wanted to say that what you have created is a beautiful example of turning one's personal challenges into something that can benefit and be in service of others. A true heroic feat. Amanda, before we jump in, can you talk about the famous Harvard study, the longest-standing study known actually, which started in 1938 on the importance of good relationships for happiness and health, particularly later in life?

Yes, of course. This Harvard study of adult development basically shows the quality of relationships and social connectedness for our grandparent generation is what has mattered most, and that loneliness kills. Dr. Waldinger compares this with the two most important goals of millennials now, which is to be rich and famous. Today's world is very different from the time we grandparents grew up.

Thank you for expanding on that. And for those listeners perhaps unfamiliar, can you explain what exactly grandparent alienation is? How does it come to pass? And what are some of the consequences and emotions those subjected to this suffer?

Well, before I define what grandparent cutoff is to you, I'd like you to hear it in the words of grandparents who've been communicating with me for the past 10 years.

Sure.

I feel totally devastated, violated, disappointed. I cry most of the time.

Even—

it makes me cry. Even though I try to take my mind to other places, it is not only the estrangement that I have to deal with, but also I am constantly worried about my grandchildren's welfare. I don't even know where they are. Another: It is killing this grandfather and they seem to care less. A positive communication from them would go a long way. A little understanding and empathy from anyone else would help immensely. The silence is deafening. Another: I am in constant pain every day due to not seeing my grandkids. Don't know how much more I can take. My daughter has no clue of this pain. She doesn't even care. This is a horrible day by day, and we were so close. I'll read 2 or 3 more to you.

Sure, these are so touching. Thank you for sharing these.

It's hard for me to read them. Excuse me.

I understand. Take your time.

She can take you away from my sight. But she cannot take you away from my life. Another: My son seems to have reconciled to the fact that it is too much trouble to stand up to his wife's demands. I know in his heart he wants us to be in their lives, but he has detached from us, his siblings, and his grandparents. Another: In the end, for me, It is like I've run into a cold brick wall at the end of my life. There's not enough time left for me to take my excellent health for granted, but there is enough time left to love my grandchildren. Hoping to see my grandchildren before I die.

Enough of that.

Oh, so touching. Thank you for sharing those, and I think it really brings home the emotion behind it. You know, words are just words, but the emotion really comes up. So thank you for sharing those very touching comments.

Thank you. And now I will become more clinical. Alienation is willful intimidation. When children become adults and choose to disown themselves from their parents, it's one of the most painful things that families can go through. It usually occurs without justification or actually knowing what crime they committed. No dialogue is permitted with them, and questions remain unanswered. Being a targeted grandparent does bring excruciating emotional pain. They're being treated like criminals by their own sons and daughters who turn against them. To complicate these matters, they use the grandchildren as pawns to punish grandparents for perceived wrongs. The grandparents are now the victims of a double alienation. They've been cut off from their child and their grandchildren. We're not just talking about family issues, we're talking about power and control. Grandparent cutoff is a fear-based phenomenon, and fear must be used to make it effective. It is cult-like behavior, pathological lying, and mind control within the family. Grandparent alienation is neuro-linguistic programming. It's like a term you may have heard, gaslighting. It is in a gradual, subtle way, a form of manipulation because they wish to emotionally control their victim The best way I can explain that is to say day after day, year after year, the alienating spouse speaks untruths about you, the grandparent, to your son or to your daughter. And since you're not aware of this behavior, you can't defend yourself. Well, the experts, specifically Dr. Michael Bone, Explains that the brain actually forms a pathway so that when, for example, your son hears her say the words, "Your mother," there's an automatic switch and your son actually thinks to himself, "My mother is crazy." Over time, a gaslighter's manipulations can grow more potent, making it increasingly difficult for your son or daughter to see the truth. But you must remember to always know that you own the truth. My guesstimate is that about 100 million grandparents, including great-grandparents, globally suffer. Wow. It affects all populations regardless of socioeconomic, educational, professional, or even religious boundaries. In practically every family are sad stories of one degree or another. I'm sure you can identify. The worst cases like these, though, are devastating, and our families are suffering. Grandparents, aunts, uncles, and cousins are erased from the lives of those who want to love the most. The grandparents are unable to share the stories of their heritage. They miss The stories only a grandparent can tell of what their families endured to remain a family unit throughout the generations. You know, it's indeed very sad to witness the current situation with the British family where Meghan and Harry have taken their son Archie and fled so far away to America.

It's true, it's a very current and topical Sad situation. Yes. Potentially this might assist in giving some tools and advice. And I wanted to pick up on one point you mentioned that it's across all countries and genders and socioeconomic backgrounds. I wonder in the East, so China and in Asia, typically there is a very strong respect for elders. Is this also seen in Asia, this phenomenon, or is it more of a Western—

Not always that way now, actually. In many Asian countries. Say, for example, in China where families used to live on farms predominantly. Well, the younger generation has picked up and moved to the city and living in tiny little apartments only big enough for them and their spouse. And then the baby comes along and now these Asian babies don't have that heritage. They don't have that family connect. Divorce is more prevalent in Asia now of all those countries. And so that affects the grandchildren too. Once one set of grandparents will have contact and maybe not so much the other one. You know, this is something that can happen all of a sudden, but it also can come apart over a period of time. It actually comes usually from what was an existing loving grandparent-grandchild relationship, and then it's destroyed. And, you know, as each day passes without their grandchildren, grandparents say they feel that part of them dies. But, you know, something we also have to recognize, those who have never been permitted to meet or hug or hold their grandchildren or never told of their grandchild's birth, they may find out through social media or acquaintances, or even worse, never know that they've become grandparents. Our grandchildren, they're conflicted and they're suffering in the loss of these unconditionally loving and supportive grandparents. Who's there to help them with this chaos in their lives? Think about how many little children or teenagers have anger issues, and even in school. This alienation, according to our leading international experts in alienation, state that the alienation will have a negative impact on these children for the rest of their lives.

And actually, it is these alienating parents who are role modeling poor behavior, which is then often an intergenerational transmission. So it may happen to them.

Thank you for highlighting these important points. Amanda, I understand there are also not just mental but also physical health implications for those suffering. Could you explain that?

As we age, we encounter physically challenging and often debilitating problems, yet nothing compares with the unmitigated sorrow that these grandparents and great-grandparents carry in their hearts. Countless cases of stress-related illnesses may be the root cause of these illnesses, which may include migraine headaches, high blood pressure, gastrointestinal disorders, sleep disorders, obesity, TMJ, acute anxiety, PTSD, and depression. Health effects of abuse include traumatic injury and pain, as well as depression and stress and anxiety. Elder abuse can lead to an increased risk of nursing home placement, use of emergency services, hospitalizations, and death. And I just want to say that the leading international experts in alienation state that grandparent alienation is severe elder abuse and severe child abuse, and society needs to take notice of This grandparents who are suffering the isolation from their grandchildren and their adult child wonder what kind of life they have been left. And our professional surveys show that suicidal ideation is experienced by the majority of the grandparents. And most of them are too ashamed or guilt-ridden to confess their circumstances, even to their doctors or their clergy. Often they're blaming themselves for having failed, while in their hearts they know that they've been good, decent, loving, and giving parents, and they cannot accept what has befallen them. It's a feeling of despair. Think about grandparents who are sharing pictures and telling stories of their grandchildren. And so these grandparents who have been cut off tend to shy away from social gatherings or even going to church for the holidays. Because they don't want to see the interactions of the multi-generation families' happiness together celebrating. They exist in what we call a complicated grief. It's a grief without closure and it goes on 24/7.

Well, thank you for bringing awareness to this. Would you say there are telltale signs that alienation might be approaching so that listeners could look out for this if they're in a similar situation?

Well, AGA has comprised a list of signs of alienation. Actually, I'll read a few to you from our brochure. They avoid socializing with you. This is your children, your adult children. They avoid including you at holidays, birthdays, school functions, or social occasions. The grandchildren are not allowed to express their feelings toward their grandparent, and there's unusual behavior from adult children toward the grandparent. Adult children may ignore your feelings or make you feel uncomfortable in their presence. Grandparents feel their sons or daughters have been brainwashed by the spouse. Grandparents feel the daughter-in-law or son-in-law speaks for their son or daughter. They try to control you with untruths. They withhold communication with the grandchildren or visits or phone calls or emails or letters. They blame you for problems, real or made up, and the list goes on.

Yeah, but it's very helpful, I think, for people to nip this in the bud, as they say, if they see something approaching, to proactively hopefully be able to solve it. But we can get to that later. I'd love to move on to talk about your journey to where you are today, and perhaps you can tell people the background to why you started Alienated Grandparents Anonymous, and how does AGA help those suffering?

For me, after years of trying and still not knowing what I was perceived to be guilty of, I realized that I alone could not fix this. So I created AGA. I figured if someone else could create this support system, then I could do it. It's that simple. I created AGA so that that one day or one year in the future, my precious grandchildren who loved me so dearly would come to know that I never gave up on them. I therefore turned to helping others. I found that grandparents wanted answers, so I learned how to create a support group, then selectively reached out to the top experts in parental alienation syndrome, PAS, to join me. We gave it a name, grandparent alienation, and we identify and study the dynamics of our stories that we hear. What took place for me was that I asked a newspaper reporter to write a story about grandparent alienation. Surprisingly, over 50 grandparents showed up at the first meeting. And that first year, some of our meetings were attended by 150 grandparents. When I first tried to talk at the first meeting, I actually literally could only get one word out at a time. I'd have to take a sip of water because I was choking when I heard the stories and the sadness and the shock. At the end of the meeting, each member of my newly formed professional board of directors came up to me and said, Amanda, the only reason we came here tonight is because we thought no one would show up and we didn't want you to be alone. And then they said, we now realize we have uncovered a phenomenon. So I applied for nonprofit status and received it in 3 months, which is rather amazing because it was at a time in our country when they were not being given. Applicants were waiting over 18 months with no results. So I think our plight speaks for itself.

What impact has AGA had in terms of people reached, support offered, and are there some success stories perhaps that you can share?

Yes, there are success stories. We have been able to share so much. I must say I'm grateful for Team AGA. These are the experts who have worked closely with me for the past 10 years, including the internationally known Dr. Bone, Dr. Caddy, Dr. Ghali, Dr. Coleman, Dr. Warren Klein. These are the masters of knowledge in parental alienation syndrome who provided me with the academic understanding of the complex dynamics. And they agreed to study grandparents with me. Also, we have experts in the field of law, James Carl and Charles Jamison, as well as consultants in fields of mental health. There is medicine, religion, and law enforcement. I would say I've communicated with over 10,000 grandparents offering suggestions from the advice of these people, and also Our information that we help them with comes from not just our experts, but from the thousands of personal stories I've been a part of, and from the two international conferences I conducted with our full staff there. And at support group meetings, these grandparents have actually opened their hearts and shared their emotional pain and struggle with us just so that we could better comply with the needs you speak of, of so many millions who are suffering. To date, we have 310 families that I know of with a reconciliation. And the more we learn, the faster these numbers started to grow. But to be honest with you, if we'd had only one success story in the world, all of this effort would have been worth it. Because if you ever sadly experience this pain and you can help one grandparent not to have to go through this, it's all worth it. I also want to thank the people who made this possible, are the donors, the people who have given donations generously, which has made us be able to have AGA. We wouldn't be able to do it without donations. There is no money coming to us other than from donations of these kind people.

Yeah, because you're a registered nonprofit, so they're able to—

Do you like me to tell you two stories so I could tell you quickly?

Oh, that would be great. Thank you.

I just wanted to let you know that I took every bit of your excellent advice to heart on how to engage with my daughter. I really didn't know what direction to take with the current situation. The perspective and clarity you offered were a great gift to me. My cousin who is visiting with me for the holiday and I went to her house yesterday with beautiful flowers and balloons, and she opened the door. You were so right, Amanda, about having my cousin along with me. It was a small miracle. We were able to have a pretty good conversation and all went well. My heart is so much lighter on this lovely holiday because you took the time "Out of your busy schedule to offer so much sound advice to me, I greatly appreciate it. You gave me my hope when I had very little. Thank you for all that you do. With heartfelt thanks and warmest regards." Very touching. And there are many others. You don't want to hear all 310 of them.

But thank you for sharing that. It makes it just so real, the happiness that it can bring and the hope that your work is doing. Can you also share about your invitation to the Palace of Westminster? And for those who are not familiar with that, it's the equivalent of the Capitol Hill in Washington, D.C.

Yes, amazing. The pathway for me, my organization, has been emotional but a very rewarding one, one that I could not have accomplished without the support and guidance and passion from those who have contributed to my work, but I did not know our journey would take us across the globe and to Parliament. The incidence of grandparent alienation is staggering. I had offered to fly to meet with our London support group and the surrounding regions. I was accompanied by Dr. Carol Galli, a founding member of our board of directors who completed the groundbreaking doctoral dissertation in 2019 titled Grandparents Who Are Cut Off from Their Grandchildren: An Exploratory Study of Intergenerational Conflicts. Her study takes a look at the degree of cutoff and also depression, complicated grief, suicidal thoughts, and physical health. The London coordinator for HEA, Lorraine, did her due diligence and was able to produce this major event, well attended by grandparents, at the Palace of Westminster. Our panel included Dame Esther Louise Ranson, some barristers who focused on hopeful legislation for the UK, The MPs showed enthusiastic support for our plight and offered many suggestions to me. It was an amazing experience. Thank you for asking.

No, you're, you're welcome. And how incredible. And for those listeners unfamiliar, an MP is a minister of parliament from the government here. Amanda, I'd love to touch on a book that you wrote titled I Thought I Was the Only One: Grandparent Alienation, a Global Epidemic. Which some call the Bible of grandparent alienation, and it's really an all-encompassing book. And can you maybe talk listeners through your book and the important areas that it covers to help people suffering?

Yes, I have been sitting in the privileged position of having gathered so much vital information at that time for 8 years and spending an average of 8 hours or more a day talking with and emailing distraught grandparents and great-grandparents. So I decided to place everything I had learned in a book. I'm not a writer, but this is something that hadn't been written. My years will be numbered, but grandparents will continue being cut off from their families. So I spent 2 and a half years at this task. Grandparents needed to know what I knew. Plus mental health providers and physicians and family law attorneys, the clergy, the school, etc., they need to know too. So this will help them. And the reason for that, I say that is because grandparent alienation was never taught in the universities. So we educate them. We have held trainings and given continuing education units to family law attorneys and mental health providers. Before I tell you what's in the book, I would just like to quote one or two of these experts on why I really feel it is so important for grandparents to read my book. I would like, if I may, to quote Dr. Glen Caddy, Australian-American. He says it's the first ever in-depth look at grandparent alienation. It's a treasure trove of information and hope for those facing the tragedy of the alienation from their grandchildren. And the Reverend Dr. John Killinger, the author of From Poppy with Love: Letters from a Grandfather to the Grandchildren He Isn't Allowed to See, and 70 other books. He kindly said that if you are experiencing alienation from your children and grandchildren, this is the book for you. Amanda is the world's leading expert on grandparent alienation, and she has distilled into this book her years of experience and understanding as the— well, he says— tireless founder and indispensable leader of AGA. The world's largest organization of alienated grandparents desperate to see and be with their own grandchildren. It is the indispensable Bible for hurt, puzzled, and distraught grandparents. And I'll read one more quick one. Dr. Joshua Coleman, the author of When Parents Hurt: Amanda is the leader and a unique voice in the movement to bring help, healing, and awareness for those dealing with the trauma of being alienated grandparents. In her book, she brings her years of experience, reading, and advocacy to help the thousands of grandparents suffering with the profound pain of being cut off from contact with their grandchildren. She has probably talked to and reached more alienated grandparents than anyone I know. It shows in her book. I highly recommend it. All right, so my book, just to finish this up, all of your questions that you've always wanted answers if you're going through this or think you may be going through it. I'll just say them in a list here. These are the topics I cover: explaining the phenomenon of grandparent alienation, the role and feelings of alienated grandparents, the feelings of grandchildren, schools, the complex dynamics of grandparent alienation, P.A.S. and then other chapters include: Raging, Fear, Jealousy, Siblings, Support Groups, Divorce and Remarriage, Reasons Why a Cutoff Occurs, Enablers, The Gatekeepers, The Other Grandparents, Holidays and Special Occasions, Weddings and Births, Wealth and Money, Social Media, Health and Stress, This Is Abuse, Coping, Religion, Suggestions, Strategies for a Reconnect, The Memory Box, Amends, Reconciliation. And then finally, read these two chapters before you make a decision to go through the court system. My final two chapters are Legal issues and grandparent rights.

Thank you. Thank you for sharing that, and so fantastic you spent those 2 and a half years putting this together and providing such a roadmap, I guess, and details for people suffering through this to reference. For people listening who are either impacted by the situation or know a friend or relative who is, what would you say is the process to start the path to reconciliation? And what are some key strategies and tools people can use to support reconciliation? Does this also apply not only to alienated grandparents but also to perhaps relatives or neighbors suffering?

Yes, of course. Well, first of all, with support, trauma is minimized. So support is the number one most helpful thing, studies show, when there has been a cutoff. It's the most important thing, support for complicated grief. And the best form of help is to have a peer-led support group, which AGA has registered 150 internationally. Uh-huh. Knowledge is power, and grandparents must educate themselves. Understanding this dynamic helps us cope better. And it helps us to form strategies to make a plan for a hope of reunification. The advice from someone who's not well informed can do much more harm than good. That's why we do— we have held the trainings for mental health providers. I know how much you love and miss your grandchildren, but we have discovered that you must focus on your adult child first. Work toward rebuilding a relationship with your own child. And I explain in detail how to do this in my book. But basically, you just want to send them some kind of message on a periodic basis. Mm-hmm. Simply say, I love you, I will always be there for you. And then tell them something positive about yourself. You need to get back into their present-day mind Since the alienating spouse has rewritten your history with your adult child, the child with whom you used to have a really close relationship with, and continue these periodic messages without any expectations. Do it because it's the right thing to do. Then at a more vulnerable time in their lives, they'll know that they can come back to you without feeling more guilt than they already do. But when you stop reaching out to your adult child, they believe you do not love them anymore. So it's critical to do this. And also, it's important to acknowledge their special events and holidays and birthdays. If you don't have any means to contact them, then place every attempt you wanted to make or tried to make and didn't know if they received it, place your thoughts into a memory box. And there was a grandfather actually in my state, and he had not seen his grandson for 13 years. And one day he got a knock at the door. And of course, you know, I'm going to tell you, it was his grandson, now 17 years old.

Wow.

First thing he said to his grandfather was, Why didn't you try harder to find me? Why didn't you come see me? Why? He was angry. Not saying anything, the grandfather told me that he went into the bedroom and he took out his memory box and he handed it to a 17-year-old boy who actually sat down and looked through everything for quite a while. And then he stood up and he put his arms around his grandfather. Because he knew how— then he knew he had the proof how hard his grandfather had tried to connect with him.

Yeah. Okay, that's so such a wonderful tool because of course, you know, there are so many cases I'm sure where the contact has just been completely lost or cut off and there's no way to contact them and to keep that memory box or a diary of the moments that the grandparent was thinking of the grandchild for, hopefully when they reconnect again, to share that and those different moments along the journey is just really incredible. So that's a really beautiful idea with the memory box. Thank you for sharing that tool and strategy as well for giving hope also, and also for the grandchildren. Where do you see AGA growing over the next years? You're already in so many countries around the world. What impacts would you like to see AGA making to improve the lives of those suffering? And how can we help to end this epidemic for all of us listeners?

I would like to do what we're doing right now. Thank you so much. I want to bring awareness to this human tragedy. And that's not my quote. This is the quote of our experts. They call it human tragedy where grandparents and great-grandparents are truly the victims. I'd like to bring awareness to the people who can help these grandchildren-grandparent relationships. This would include their pediatricians— should know about it so they can ask about it. It should include doctors who treat our older population, the clergy who might gain a new insight into what people are hiding because they've been so ashamed. Well, actually, it's time to place the blame on the other side. Make amends, grandparents, make amends for what you may have done wrong, but take a stand as a person who did the best they could at the time they were raising their own children. I'm actually hopeful right now, anticipating a meeting sometime this year with the US Surgeon General, who has written a book recently titled Together, his dream is to declare loneliness a national crisis in the United States. My objective to meet with him would be for him to include a focus on the loneliness of grandparents who've been disconnected from their adult children and grandchildren, and this has been heightened, of course, in the pandemic.

Yes.

I'd also like to point out that The other thing that we can do, which is a natural pathway that leads to legislation— I never intended to be a part of that, but it just happens. I've been a stakeholder myself for grandparents' rights visitation in my state, having presented several times at our state house, and I described the process of how to do this and what took place for me. The laws we have passed are not perfect, but they certainly are a foot in the door. ADA grandparents have also led legislative attempts in some of our states with some success. Ontario ADA has had some success as well. The United Kingdom, Baroness Meyer has championed efforts trying to amend the domestic abuse bill. For more information regarding your national issue, you may contact our AGA London coordinator, and I will give you her email, which is hendon— H-E-N-D-O-N— hendongrandparents@gmail.com.

That's helpful. Thank you so much. And I think for listeners, we might have listeners around the world listening to this as well, so perhaps you can also provide your website link because it's available to people in all jurisdictions. Which would be the best website for people to find out more information and resources that you have available?

Our new website will be effective April 1st, and everyone who contacts us through the website, I personally will respond with emails and documents for you to help you and offer you our— it was a monthly newsletter, now it's a quarterly newsletter to bring you up to date on everything we offer and what you should know, including updated legislation, because we have to give the judges the tools that can help. We have to do that. So we include the legislation as well as the psychological issues. The website is going to be April 1st, our new one, alienatedgrandparentsanonymous.com.

So all one word, www. Alienated Grandparents with an S at the end, anonymous.com. Okay, great. Thank you for sharing that. Are there other tools and resources available that you could recommend for people who would want to learn more for repairing relationships, or any other particular books or resources that they should start with when they go to the website and they see our email address?

When you email me, I'd be happy to send people our bibliography, the list. Be happy to do that.

That would be great.

Yes.

Where can people— and of course I'll link to all these things in the show notes for everyone— but where can people learn more about AGA and what you're doing? We've discussed the website, but are you also on social media?

Yes. The information that I send to people when they contact us will include all of that. We have a 24/7 International support line that grandparents can communicate with one another. And it will also list where our local support groups are around the world with an email address for most of them where they can contact me and I can lead them to one. That's my way of keeping in touch with everyone en masse to let them know what's going on, is our quarterly newsletter.

Sure.

Our website.

Okay, perfect. Before we close, I want to mention a great essay written by Tim Urban, and I'll link it in the show notes. It's entitled "The Tail End," and I find it really touching and such an important realization. This beautiful essay is a great reminder, and it puts into perspective that for most of us listening as adults, our days with our parents, and indeed the days for grandparents with their children and grandchildren, are limited. Tim Ibram's takeaway from this, and I quote, "Quality time matters. If you're in your last 10% of time with someone you love, keep that fact in the front of your mind when you're with them and treat that time as what it actually is: precious." So for all those listening who might have skipped a few phone calls with their parents, their grandparents, their children, their grandchildren, potentially close neighbors, aunts and uncles who might be alone. I hope that this conversation with Amanda here today might be a memory to keep in touch and to reach out and to remember that life is short and quality time matters. To close, Amanda, do you have a final ask or recommendation or any parting thoughts or message for my audience?

Yes, I know that if others have treated you this way, you would have walked the way, but it's because we have loved our sons and daughters throughout their lives. And because we adore our grandchildren, we don't walk away from this. Perseverance can bring success. It's okay to take a break though, because it's a stressful situation. I ask you this question. If you stop trying, will you stop yearning for your grandchildren who are waiting to be with you too. So please know that your adult child does love you. There is a connection of the heart. Every child wants a grandma and a grandpa. And remember, you own the truth. Thank you.

Thank you so much, Amanda, for coming on today and for, as I stated at the beginning, for turning your personal challenge into to this incredible nonprofit, Alienated Grandparents Anonymous, that is impacting so many lives around the world. So thank you for your amazing work and making this planet a better place.

Thank you.

Hi everyone, this is Claudia von Boeselager again. Before you take to kick off, thank you so much for listening to the podcast today. I hope you learned as many valuable insights on living better for longevity as I did. I'd love you to join our longevity tribe so we can learn and grow together, as well as hear your feedback. So please subscribe to the podcast and leave a review to let me know what you thought. Thanks so much and take care.