Heal Eczema, Psoriasis, Hives, Dandruff and Other Chronic Skin Issues From Within | Jennifer Fugo

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My guest today is Jennifer Fugo, a clinical nutritionist empowering adults who've been failed by conventional medicine to beat chronic skin and unending gut challenges, which many of us will know about. She has experience working with conditions such as eczema, psoriasis, dandruff, hives, with clientele ranging from regular folks to celebrities, professional athletes, and many more. Jennifer also founded her own line of skincare and supplements specifically for people struggling with these chronic skin conditions. Jennifer holds a master's degree in human nutrition from the University of Bridgeport and is a licensed dietitian nutritionist and certified nutrition specialist. Jennifer is the host of the Healthy Skin Show podcast with over 1 million downloads. Jennifer, it's such a pleasure to welcome you to the Longevity and Lifestyle podcast today.

Thank you for having me, Claudia. I'm excited to be here.

Yeah, me too. And so for those listening, maybe I'll just mention how we met. So Jennifer and I met at an evening event of a conference we were at in February, and I think there was like a slight drizzle happening. I think you were waiting for the Uber. We had Dr. Jolie Brighton with us as well, and we were chatting. Were we even dancing? There at some stage. Anyway, it was quite an exceptional experience. There was a cacao ceremony, there was a DJ. So we had a very fun meeting at a rather late hour that has brought us together on the podcast now. So such a pleasure we could make it happen, Jennifer.

Absolutely. And I know Dr. Brighton was like, you two should know one another.

Very true. Very true.

It's always fun to be connected through friends and colleagues and whatnot. Yeah.

Thank you.

I appreciate the invitation. Invitation to come because I know that you have such a, you have such a great podcast. And I know that your listeners are so engaged in learning because they're also applying it to their own life. So I'm excited to talk today and share your knowledge.

And I'd love to start also, Jennifer, with your journey, because you didn't just start as a practitioner and very sort of logical, but you actually came from a patient perspective, right? And so for many people listening, whether they are practitioners or patients themselves or both, Can you share a little bit about your journey and your story that brought you to, to do what you are doing today?

My journey to working in chronic skin issues really is very personal. As you said, I actually— I— so my father, I should mention this because it's— I find most clients find this relevant. My dad was a doctor and an eye surgeon. So I grew up in a household full of like being given antibiotics as a kid every time I got a cold or flu or something like that. And so I'd been around medicine a whole lot my entire life. We actually had and owned a medical practice here in the United States. And I honestly became very interested in nutrition because I did not want to go into medicine. I just saw the long, grueling hours my dad was going through, and I just didn't— wasn't into, like, doing dissections and all that stuff. It just wasn't my thing. And I got into nutrition, and in the process of starting my master's master's degree, I began to break out in what's called dyshidrotic eczema. So for somebody who's not familiar with that particular type of eczema, it usually impacts the palms of your hands and the bottom of your feet. For me, it only impacted the palms of my hands. And what happens is it's kind of a very unique presentation of eczema in that you develop what look like— I thought they were like these, like, little clear water beads under my skin at first, and they became very itchy. Would the skin— would flare up very red. Eventually it'd start oozing, it'd get crusty. It was like super gross. And then it would dry out, calm down, and then this process would start again. And so obviously, I— the first person I went to was my dad. And I'm like, what the heck is this? What's going on? This is awful. And he explained to me that it was eczema. And you know, said, look, here's some steroid cream you can use, but just be very cautious with how much you use, which I'm now in my later years and having worked with so many people who've had such huge exposure to steroids and what those steroids can potentially do, I'm really grateful for that warning because I was really, really judicious with how much I used, how often I used it, and fortunately didn't have any side effects from using that medication. But eventually, like after seeing dermatologists who were just like, sorry, you're just going to have to learn to live with it, one told me me. And you have a daughter? Yes.

Claudia von Boeselager. Yeah.

Yeah. So you've got kids, you've got a home, you've got a life. Can you imagine smearing the palms of your hands with Vaseline? Because that's what the dermatologist told me to do.

And I was like, open the door, then lose the ability.

I don't know. And I have cats. I'm like, do you know how much cat hair I would have stuck to me? I'd have Vaseline all over my clothes. This is like an utterly impractical suggestion. She's like, but that's how you keep your hands from drying out. I was like, okay, I don't think this is going to work. So I started doing a lot of research. I was really depressed for a very, quite a while because when you can't touch things, you have to wear gloves all the time. When you've got, I mean, literally every single spot that I bent my fingers would crack open and break, especially in the wintertime where we actually do have like, like in the UK, we have cold winters where I live. And my skin would just become so fragile, it would crack open, break. I couldn't touch water. So I'm wearing gloves all the time. And I'm like, no one is going to want to work with me. I look— I don't look like a well person. I mean, people wouldn't even shake my hands because they looked infected all the time. So I got to this place where I thought, how am I even going to do this? And I almost was actually going to quit my master's program. My husband was like, stop. Take a step back, think about this from if you, the current you, was a client, what would you do? How could you try to help them? And obviously you're game for anything, so you're a great guinea pig. And what I did then, I honestly didn't know if it was going to work. It took almost a year to get the flares to stop. In the process, my nails had also gotten really messed up because when you have inflammation in the hands, specifically in the fingers, it's not uncommon common with skin conditions to then see like different pitting and lines and all sorts of issues develop with the nails because it's really a sign of inflammation. So my nails had gotten quite— oh, they just were not nice looking at all. And that obviously took longer to grow out, but I was able to finally get the rashes to stop. Now, if you were to say, what did you do? Because it's always a question I get, what did you do? And I'm like, okay, first of all, what I knew in like 2016 is so minute compared to what I know today. I would not do what I did because I was throwing everything at it. I don't know what worked. And to be entirely honest with you, there— what I have learned at this point in time is that there is a huge amount of factors that impact not only eczema but chronic skin problems in general. And the skin unfortunately tends to be one of the later things or the last things per se to clean up or clear up. It's not going to— it's not going to fix. I know we want these magical solutions and I can really deeply appreciate that as a person who has struggled with acne in the past. I've had, you know, obviously I've had this issue with my hands. I've had hidradenitis suppurativa in my armpits. I understand wanting these skin issues to stop? Like, full stop, what do I need to do? But you, if you're really serious about asking that question and wanting them to stop, you have two choices. One is some very serious, potent medications that I— listen, I'm not judgmental about whether you choose medication or not. There's a time and a place, and no one can truly understand anyone's individual suffering, because none of us live in that person's shoes. So I very much appreciate the medication that is present, and at least it's an option if it's the best fit for you. But to go the more natural route, there's no— I do not at this point in time know of any single herb, nutrient, substance, peptide, whatever that is magically going to make your skin stop flaring up or heal or whatever within, I don't know, a day, a week, 2 weeks. Like, it doesn't generally work that way. Unfortunately, it is a slower process because all all of these other systems have to be essentially filled back up, rebalanced, so that the skin, which is not as high of a priority on our organ totem pole, can actually rebuild correctly from the inside out. It doesn't heal from the outside in. It's really from the inside out because that's where the cells are formed in our body. So that was my big learning lesson of how I became I mean, I've— I have had eczema again, and the second time I had eczema again was not on my hands. And I found out I had a gut infection and took antibiotics because at that point it was quite significantly bad, made the decision to do that. And the eczema did clear up the second time and it has not returned. So I'm not saying it's all a gut problem, but I, you know, I'm sure you have a lot of questions for me today so we can go in many different directions, but I just I just hope that if somebody is listening to this and thinking it's just a skin problem, what else can I put on my skin? There are some topical things that you can do depending on what you have, but it's also an inside— there's a significant inside piece that is more so than just like do a liver detox or heal your leaky gut or whatever. It is more extensive than that, I guess, fortunately and unfortunately. So I like to give a realistic picture.

Yeah, no, I love that as well. I think it's so important. I mean, our skin is our largest organ. We forget that. And the amount of also chemicals we do in terms of the creams we're putting on, the sun creams. I mean, it's so important to be reading labels and what we're exposing. Even a lot of the makeup products, unfortunately, are all really, really toxic that we're ingesting each day. So I guess a few questions are just off the back of that. And thank you for sharing the story. The correlation with skin and gut health, I'd love to hear your view on that. And also, can you just share with people so they understand around steroids? And the impact of steroids because, and, you know, also speaking from personal experience, if I had something, see a dermatologist, oh, here's a steroid cream, here's a steroid cream. I mean, it's like automatic almost. And so just to help people understand the impact of that and why it should be taken in low doses and very, very cautiously.

First of all, like, these are huge topics.

Sorry, exactly.

I don't know. They're great, though. They're great questions. So I think first of all, within, with the gut, I think the way we have to look at this, because most people say the gut is— how is that connected to my skin? They're very distant organ systems. What's the connection? I think the fundamental thing that I appreciate in this process of interviewing guests on the Healthy Skin Show and reading research and being in like in clinical practice is that where inflammation starts may not be where it actually ends up and where we visualize or experience it.. And I think most people who are interested in alternative health know that if they're struggling with autoimmunity, it seems like that hasn't quite trickled down to many other conditions, or at least that knowledge. So I'll give you an example. There are these chemical messengers in your body that your body produces. They're not inherently bad, and they are called cytokines. And cytokines are— this was actually the analogy shared on my podcast by Dr. Heather Zwicky. So I just want to make sure to give her the credit where credit is due because it's a great analogy. She likens cytokines to emails. And it's— if you imagine that you have something going on in your gut, say you ingested some sort of— we'll just say worst-case scenario, you got a really bad parasite, but it could also be bacteria, it could be H. pylori, it could be any number of other things, fungal overgrowth, et cetera. Your immune system sees that and is like, "I need help." So, it starts sending out these cytokines or emails out into the ether to try to recruit help into the gut where the problem is. The issue here is that the cytokines end up on your skin. And so the issue— so a lot of times when people are like, I don't understand, you're saying I have fungal overgrowth, so I must have a fungal infection on my skin. And I said, no, the fungal overgrowth is internal. What's going on in the skin, it's possible you could have a fungal rash where there's actual fungal organisms, but it's also possible to not have some sort of significant enough infection on the skin. It's just the inflammation internally is showing up there contributing to these rash presentations. It's inflammation. It's your body telling you there's an inflammatory process going on. So for anybody who's like, this sounds like a lot of hogwash, I'll share this little tidbit of a story. Last year I get— I got this email from a drug company in the US. They were doing a round of funding for a psoriasis medication that they were working on. I forget which phase. I think it was like a Phase 2 or Phase 3 trial. And in the email, so they're trying to get, you know, people, they're like saying, oh, look how great this IL-17 blocker is. This is what it does. So IL-17 is a particular type of cytokine, and a lot of the biologic drugs for psoriasis specifically either target IL-17 or IL-20. And so they— I think this was for an oral medication and they explicitly stated in the email that IL-17 is generated by some sort of like pathogen or like organism that shouldn't be in the GI tract that generates this sort of inflammatory messenger to be produced in excess quantities. It's like buried in the middle of the thing. And I'm like, how come everybody says that this is this? I'm just like, you know, this is— this seems like a reach what you're saying. I'm like, if the drug companies know this. So I'm not saying that every problem, every skin issue is inherently a gut issue, but I do think it's worthwhile to consider it as a component because you can also have no gut issues. And this is important, I think, for clinicians to hear. You can have the perfect poop, uh, every day. You're like, I poop 3 times a day, it's perfect, it's a lovely snake, you know, I have no gas, I have no bloating, I have no belching, no GI dysfunction at all, I digest my food well. And you could still have something going on in the gut and it shows up on your skin. And I don't know why that is, in all honesty. We have many cases in our practice that they were like, I don't think I have problem. I don't know if it's worthwhile to do a stool test. And I was like, just, can you just humor me? And here they come back with parasites and all sorts of stuff. And why it doesn't impact their GI tract, I have no clue. I wish I knew. That would be amazing. They have super guts. But it does. It just shows up on their skin. So it's the reminder that what, where the inflammatory process starts, where the actual triggers are, might not be where the— where our like check engine lights show up on our body, right? Yes. There are these distinct connections. It can happen because of gut dysfunction. So how we digest and absorb food, the gut motility. If you have gas, bloating, if you're getting like GI pain of any sort, if you're not— oh my gosh, I really— I'm sure your folks know this, but please, you should be pooping at least once a day, if not 3 times a day. Please don't go longer than a day without having a bowel bowel movement, and it should be well-formed. It should be soft enough that at least it's easy to feel like you're fully voided and to exit your lovely intestinal tract. Um, constipation is a huge problem apparently now in the United States. We have a laxative shortage from what I'm hearing online. Uh, so please, constipation is a big problem, and that can— you're sitting in waste products. And that can— it can contribute to those inflammatory things, not just from the organisms themselves, but also what they produce, like lipopolysaccharides, also, you know, also known as LPS, etc. Those things sit in your system longer than they should, causing— having more time essentially to cause a problem.

Yeah. And Jennifer, just a quick point on that, just to share with people. I mean, some things that I find really helpful because I would have a tendency to constipation, for example, if I don't do something about it. But I find Water in the morning, especially with fresh lemon, gets the whole digestive tract going. Exercise is really fundamental. Getting that movement in for some people in the morning is the best way as well. And then fiber. People forget about fiber and they're just focusing like they're only salads all day. I'm like, you know, that's great. And there is some fiber in that, but like try to add stuff. So I just put, you know, flaxseed, milled flaxseed, for example, in my morning smoothie. And I know I'm getting my fiber for the day and then anything else is a plus. So just for people wondering, What do I do if this is an issue? Yes, these are some little small tips.

Yeah. And there's also good research on kiwis. So you could have, I think, 2 kiwis a day. I don't know if I would do 2 kiwis a day, but 1 kiwi a day could be fine, maybe 2 kiwis. But they do show that kiwis can be helpful. And then also a little bit of aloe juice, not aloe vera gel that you would put on your skin, but actual aloe leaf juice. Yeah. Then you should look for one that is not sweetened and it doesn't have a whole lot of extra ingredients in it. But just be careful. With aloe juice because it's very potent. It's not something you drink throughout the day. It's like you find the point where you're going to the bathroom and you don't go beyond that. Yeah, exactly. Or else you, you will get cleaned out and it will not be pretty.

It's like the MCT oil as well. Yeah, my father takes the aloe juice as well. And I think— what do you think of the apple cider vinegar? Actually, just on that point, I think it could be helpful for some.

It just depends if somebody has gastritis or they find that they don't feel well. Also, someone with histamine intolerance is not— may not tolerate doing that. So it just— I think it depends on the case. But I also too, in the wintertime, another— like it could also be another great helpful tip if like I do like having a little bit of like raw honey. So I'll make like a tea with a tea, like a teaspoon to a tablespoon, usually splash at this point of apple cider vinegar and just a little teaspoon of some honey. And it's just really nice and soothing for the throat, but I also find too it can be nice and helpful for the GI tract as well.

Yeah. Okay. Very, very cool. So thank you for expanding on that as well. So I think hopefully everyone knows what the idea—

I will just finish up this point in saying that we have to be cognizant of the fact that you can have microbiome dysbiosis or imbalances anywhere throughout the GI tract. It can include the stomach like H. pylori. I actually do find— I know it's controversial in functional medicine of whether we deal with H. pylori or not.

I deal with it.

Yeah, I have it. It can. Yeah. Right. And you know, it can cause problems and sometimes they are silent problems. You can also have it and have no classical symptoms of having it. But H. pylori is an issue. You can have SIFO, which is small intestine fungal overgrowth, or SIBO, small intestine bacterial overgrowth. You can also have LIFO, so large intestine fungal overgrowth, and LIBO, large intestine bacterial overgrowth. Growth, you can also have significant undergrowth of the colon as well. And those, I think most people assume because they've had, like me, so I am the classical example. My dad, like I said, dad was a doctor, gave me antibiotics for pretty much everything. So, my gut is more on the depleted side. It is a constant battle to try to improve it. It has been years and years. It is what it is. I have had clients who have been on tons of antibiotics and somehow still have so much overgrowth. So you cannot assume that simply because you had a lot of antibiotic exposure that that means you're depleted. I think that's where test, don't guess is really important because how you approach undergrowth is very different from overgrowth. And so like For example, if you wanted to deal with an overgrowth scenario because you have bad bacteria, we'll just call it quote unquote bad bacteria in the GI tract or dysbiotic or pathogenic, whatever, those types of unfriendly bugs. If your gut microbiome is depleted, you will continue to deplete it by taking antimicrobial herbs and other things of that nature. So you do need to replete before you can start to deal with it. So it does really matter. And I think that's something that we'd like to go online and DIY some of these solutions, not realizing that we could actually do more damage and throw the gut into a further state of dysbiosis. Yeah, as a result of that.

So this is a really important point. I really like that, Jennifer. I hadn't heard that before as well. But actually to think about replenishing and supporting it before you're actually treating the other one so that the whole balance doesn't completely go off.

So, right, if you're in an overgrowth scenario where you just have like way too much bacteria, then that's a different story. We can go and start chipping away at things. But I think we have to be cautious. And sometimes we have this— on this, I will say, a misunderstanding that because something is natural, it can cause no harm. And that is not inherently true. There are plenty of herbs that can— that have side effects and can cause harm. So I just— I— again, it's about being honest and straightforward so that if someone is doing this themselves because maybe they can't afford to work with a practitioner because they're just in that that place where they're like, I want to try and see if I can figure it out. That's cool. But you do have to realize there are guardrails to some of this, and you do have to be cautious of what you take. So that being said, in regards to steroids, so I just want to preface this by saying I'm not a doctor, a medical professional. So obviously if you're taking steroids right now, don't just stop them cold turkey. Go have a conversation with your provider about your concerns. But there is something called topical steroid withdrawal, also known as TSW. And it's true, we are trying— actually, the UK, you guys are ahead of us on this front. You're— I think it's the British Association of Dermatology. There's some sort of group of dermatologists that have finally recognized topical steroid withdrawal syndrome as an actual problem, whereas in the US we're still struggling to make that happen. But what basically happens is that it doesn't matter how you are exposed to the steroids, whether it's through a nasal inhaler, whether you're taking prednisone pills, whether you have to get like you're at the hospital and they have to give it— give you like an IV drip or you're unfortunately slathering yourself with topical steroids. It is important also just to clarify that topical steroids are not all the same potency. Some like hydrocortisone is, I think, one of the lower doses, whereas I think clobetasol is one of the higher ones. So, just be aware potency does matter, but all of this impacts your cortisol because hydrocortisone is man-made cortisol. And so, I'm sure many of your listeners know there's a feedback loop within the HPA axis. And so, when you start adding in more cortisol, there's more coming into the system, your HPA axis is like, "Hey, adrenals, you can like calm it down, you don't have to make as much. And with time, the adrenal output of cortisol drops. Now, the period of time that this happens, we don't know, there is not enough research to show that. And if you're just using, like, say, a topical steroid, maybe a couple times a week, I don't know that, like, I just want to be very cautious here, because you have some folks that are in this camp that are like, steroids are the devil, you— no one should use these. And I look, they, they do have a time and a place, and they can can save somebody's life. I think we just need more knowledge about how to use them safely. So basically what happens in TSW is that the steroids don't work as well, and you have to continue increasing potency and the amount that you're applying, and probably applying it more often. And as a result, with time, your body becomes dependent on in this instance, the creams. And so when you try to stop them, the skin in general flares up. So it's not just— let's just pretend like maybe you have rashes on your shoulders and your neck, but you stop the creams and then you end up with a full body rash. There's also other very strange symptoms that go along with this, like swollen lymph nodes. You can't sleep at night. Unfortunately, sometimes your hair can start to fall out. I mean, this is like literally a devastating situation that can last for some individuals for years. So if this sounds like something you're going through, there is a website you can look at called itsan.org. So itsan.org, they're a great organization that advocates for people and they have tons of resources there. It's not something to take lightly. It's not like, yay, I know what's wrong. It could be like, great, I understand partly what's happening to me, but it is a devastating situation that is unfortunately drug-induced. So please be careful. And also, please be careful in assuming that you have it, number one. And part of the reason I say that is that sometimes a severe skin infection can look like TSW. So it's really important to rule that out, get treated for that if you do have a severe skin infection, and then determine whether you actually have it or not, because there are some people who will just say, oh, I have this, this situation, this TSW thing going on. And in reality they've actually had a really, really bad skin infection that was left untreated. So, so yes, steroids unfortunately can have an unintended consequence that can take years to rebalance the HPA axis and can cause some really unpleasant, if not devastating side effects.

Yeah, it's not to be taken lightly. I do agree there is a time and a place for certain things, But I firmly believe in like looking at the root cause, you know, what is triggering that? We talked about gut health, you know, have you totally analyzed your gut health if you're having skin health issues? You know, is it in good form? I'd actually want to ask you also about the tests as well and how often you recommend testing gut health. Is there a particular test you find particularly useful versus other ones? Can you share some information on that for people? Maybe thinking about going down that route?

I would say that if you're being marketed a test on Instagram or Facebook, don't buy it. I would also say I can't speak for worldwide how this— these tests are marketed and how they're allowed to be marketed. In the United States, no clinical lab is allowed to be marketed by Facebook ads and on Google. So you're not going to see an ad ever. And it's something that either you're going to buy through a testing website like not the company's website. You can't ever buy it directly through the company. So for example, I do use the GI Map in my practice and I do like it, but you can't buy it at Diagnostic Solutions as a lab unless you're a practitioner. You cannot get that lab through them. You have to go through these third-party testing websites where they have a whole panel of blood work and hormone panels and all these different things, and that's all they do is just lab tests. So that's one way, at least in the— if you're in the United States, to know that there's a red flag. And I would just also caution you, I, I recognize that we develop a lot of trust with the people whose email lists that we're on and who we follow, but if the person is not a clinician and they don't have a practice, if they're selling you a stool test, I can tell you for In fact, it's not a clinical lab. And there's a big difference between clinical labs. Like a GI map has clinical implications. It means we can build protocols off of it. It can be used to help that— by a doctor diagnose certain things. Something like these other tests that they're like, here's a 52-page report on all the foods you should eat and avoid, and here's the makeup of your microbiome, that tells you nothing. It's all cute, but it's a lot of money spent on nothing.. And so I, you know, especially if you're not well, I think that's where it becomes more challenging because you want to put your money toward what's actually going to help you get better. So in the UK, there is— Invivo has good testing. Also HealthPath is another option as well. There's also the GI 360. I don't remember which lab makes that test. And there's the GI Effects that comes from Genova. All have pros and cons as well. Yeah. Yeah. Pros and cons. I, um, I don't actually like the fact that the GI Effects from Genova requires you to pay extra money to get the H. pylori add-on, and they just tell you whether it's positive or negative. The thing is, I want to know what the number is. Did you find any there? Because no stool test is perfect. There's 3 areas on a stool test where they might not be as accurate as you would assume they are. So that would be H. pylori, fungal organisms, organisms and parasites. They don't do such a great job, unfortunately. They can give us an idea, and this is sometimes why it's beneficial to have somebody else who knows how to like dig through your case history and look at your symptoms and really ask questions that you didn't even think were relevant, you know, to your case. But if you're doing it yourself, these are— you can have fungal overgrowth and show no Candida, no other fungal organisms on a stool test. And the reason is that fungal organisms live in the small intestine. This is a large intestine test. So, in order for them to even show up and grow far enough down where anything is even picked up, you have to have significant overgrowth in the small intestine. So, if you're high on a large intestine test, you got a lot— you have a lot of fungus partying in your GI tract. If you have a normal or within limits, normal limits amount of fungus show up on a stool test, you have fungal overgrowth. Growth. If you have none, it does not mean no. And so that's where this gets confusing is because some practitioners don't know that, and especially with skin problems, and they don't— also, if you have had a lot of exposure to steroids, which we just talked about, that can also impact how much fungal overgrowth could be present because steroids depress your, your immune system's ability to keep fungal organisms in check. If you're also the type of person who had a lot of antibiotics and has a more depleted gut, again, you're probably a ripe candidate, unfortunately, for fungal overgrowth. Or if you drank a lot of alcohol and did a lot of partying, or you lived in a fungally moldy environment, which, by the way, in the UK, I feel like you guys need way more education on mold. I feel like there's so much mold in the UK.

And it's a joke here. I know. I mean, in— I was just talking to a to a friend the other day in Germany, it actually says in like rental contracts that if there's black mold, the tenants are allowed to reduce the rent until it's dealt with and it's dealt with properly. It's like an expert comes in and removes it. It's a friend living in Spain. They had a flood and I was telling about this in the UK. It's actually really funny. They'll just paint over it.

Yes.

Like, oh, it's fine. It looks fine again, you know, and they don't actually treat and deal with it. And we know it has such an implication when we inhale those spores, it stays in our system and in our cells and affects our cognitive health, et cetera.

100%. And, and it impacts your microbiome because you're in a moldy environment and that sets the stage for a more fungally overgrowth scenario within the GI tract. Aside from all of these other implications of the mycotoxins and whatnot. And a client recently found mold under the rug in her car. Oh, wow. So, you know, you can find it in your car. A lot of institutional buildings like hospitals, nursing homes, libraries, university dormitories, a lot of old, older buildings. And it even could be a new building because sometimes with construction materials they leave things unexposed and the wood gets wet and whatnot. But just be aware of that, that that is a factor here.

And to detox those as well, right? I mean, I think sauna and cold exposure is really helpful just to, you know, get people on the way. And then there are obviously supplements and things people can take, right?

Yeah. And I just want to say as one last point to the stool testing, again, parasites, they don't do such a good job. They're like, sometimes you'll see protozoa, which are the single-cell organisms, but sometimes you won't. And you may— you— I have never seen a worm, though I know two clinicians that I've talked to saw worms show up on like a GI map once. So it's very infrequent, but it doesn't mean that they don't happen. I will just give a little bit of a tidbit for anybody who's thinking about going on certain biologic drugs. If like say you're on, for example, the generic name is dupilumab, but it's known— it's marketed as Dupixent. I have found clinically that if someone is on Dupixent and it's not controlling and suppressing the rashes sufficiently and you're still having to use steroids or tacrolimus or Protopic or whatever to help control things, it's worthwhile to check if you have a helminth infection. So helminths are worms because it is contraindicated that and Adbri. I don't know if Adbri is available in the UK and I believe Dupixent is. But just keep that in mind. It could be a sign that there's actually something underneath the surface that shouldn't be there, and it's contraindicated for use with helminth infections because it suppresses IL-13. IL-13 helps us expel worms. So again, all of these little details really, really matter. But stool testing, I would say, at least if— the way that we work with stool testing in my practice, usually we don't do stool testing all that frequently.

What's the frequency, Jennifer, I wanna test? Is it like once a year?

Once every 2 years? In our practice, if we are actively doing protocols, it's somewhere between every 6 to like 9 months. So we're not doing one protocol, let's do a new stool test. That, in my opinion, is a waste of people's money because there should be enough on that stool test to help you understand what needs to be done over a series of several months. Um, I will also say that if you have really significant fungal overgrowth or you had a really significant mold exposure one round for like a month of antifungal herbs is not going to fix you.

What? Which ones would you recommend? Okay.

It's not going to— it's just— it's not going to fix you because it's too significant of an issue. And so, again, this is sort of where, like, skin is very different than functional medicine and how it approaches like autoimmunity because you could have many things show up on a stool test and it's not as big of a deal for like, say, chronic gut issues and whatnot. For skin, it is a big deal. They are different beasts. And I think that's been a hard thing for a lot of people who are seeking answers to, to find because the practitioner is like, oh, well, I do functional medicine, I've been trained in it, I'm certified, you know, I've done all these things. But the reality is they don't teach about skin. Skin is— and I only know this because of the historical experience and the few colleagues that I have that are really knowledgeable in skin have noticed the same exact problem— is that, that you have to do so much more work. Unfortunately, if there's a gut mess, it requires so much more work than it would for like a chronic, like, diarrhea or constipation case, or you have like Hashimoto's.

It just, for some reason, it requires more work because it's like systemic as well. And this is a really interesting point because I know a lot of people get get the— I guess it's Candida on the skin, like the fungal on the skin sometimes. So if they go in the sun, they'll have like white patches. How would you say that could be best treated in general? Because I think this is quite a common scenario that people do experience.

Yeah.

And then I have another question, but I won't stack them too much for you, Jennifer.

Sure. So, so that for at least from my knowledge, again, I'm not a doctor, but sounds like tinea versicolor. And so when that happens and you have this fungal overgrowth on the skin that's resulting resulting in those, that discoloration. Some people will have white patches show up, other people will end up with this hyperpigmentation. So it's different than melasma that'll show up on the face. It's very different. But that to me is a clear sign you have fungal overgrowth internally. So a lot of times people will try creams, but the creams sort of keep it at bay. I would potentially go back to the doctor. This is me. If it was me, I go back to the doctor and I'd ask for antifungal oral medication. Elimination. I would start there. Then I would go on and continue working on reducing fungal organisms with probably a more herbal option. It is a gut problem initially because the gut microbiome, the way that it is sort of set up and modeled for whatever reason, does seem to impact the way that other microbiomes show up. So if you have dysbiosis in the gut microbiome, it is not shocking, at least in skin cases, to see dysbiosis of the skin microbiome. So if you've got fungus and you can't seem to get rid of it on the skin with tinea versicolor, the most effective route I have found is sometimes it is bouncing back and forth between antifungal meds and antifungal herbs, going back and forth 'Cause I will be honest, if it's really bad, sometimes the herbs are not sufficient and you do need some help. But good thing is that antifungal meds do not have as drastic of a gut microbiome impact like antibiotics do because they don't kill bacteria. They're only impacting the fungal organisms. Where you have to be careful is that some of them are hard on your liver and they can cause an elevation of liver enzymes. So that's where you wanna ask like Diflucan, Fluconazole, those you, if if you're— if it depends, but I would ask the doctor, can you check my liver enzymes to make sure that they don't start off elevated? Because then you're not a, you're not a good candidate for, for those types of things. And if they do get elevated, what, how are we going to handle that? Now, there are a lot of alternative options to dealing with that, but just be aware of that, that some do. Nystatin is the— is one of the only antifungals that I'm aware of that will not cause an elevation of liver enzymes.

Okay. That's, that's really important to know as well. And I want to ask you, because obviously it's very trendy now. And I mean, I'm in that pool as well to take mushrooms, right? So it's like the reishi mushrooms or the lion's mane cordyceps, for example, for energy. There are different things. So what is your view on the impact of that? And then essentially also on skin, there are obviously a lot of benefits to it, but is there anything people should look out for so that they're not getting too much fungal exposure?

So I don't consider them to be the same thing, even though, yes, they're fungi. We have clients that we use, especially Actually, for TSW people, cordyceps is really helpful, by the way. But we use medicinal mushrooms in our practice. So, I don't consider them to be— so, A, I don't use the Candida diet. I don't believe it's a really great template because most of the time you can't starve yeast. I'm just going to say that. I think that's a really fair statement to make because so many people have tried the diet and it doesn't work and everything comes back when you try to reintroduce like a sweet potato. That's awful. I'd rather you be able to eat sweet potatoes or some type of healthy stuff, carrots, you know, like healthy starches. But I don't consider them in the same— like, they, they don't have the same effect. So, Tim, in my book, if you can tolerate them, then great. I don't have any issue with that. Enjoy them. Them however you can to support, whether it's like you said, your energy, your stamina. They have some— reishi especially has some immune system modulating capacities. Again, not nothing magical, but it can be very helpful in a combination of different things. Um, but I don't have any issue, and I don't actually have any issues with clients who have fungal overgrowth eating mushrooms in their diet either, because it is so beneficial as well.

Okay, um, so Jennifer, uh, I would love to also understand, um, or share with people around food sensitivities triggering skin rashes. I think this is an important point too. People assume either like, oh, I'm really allergic, but I— the amount of people obviously through having chronic inflammation that tend to have then food sensitivities, um, but can you talk about the correlation between the food sensitivities and skin rash issues?

There definitely is a connection between food sensitivities, and I would almost argue food allergies, because we do need to make sure to differentiate between the two, which I don't think most— the normal person does a good job of doing that. They kind of lump everything in together. And then there's the skin rash piece. So with atopic dermatitis or eczema, there is an increased risk of food allergies. It's not uncommon to see someone have that and asthma as well, potentially, especially see this in kids. I think a couple of things need to be like— I think we need to change the narrative a little bit based on more current research. So first of all, children get sensitized to foods through their skin, not through what they ate in their diet. That is the new model and that has been shown repeatedly. So when children are smearing food all over their face, the cheeks unfortunately are one of the weaker barriers of the skin at a young age. And that's how you end up, for the most part, developing food allergies as a child. I've had Dr. Peter Leo on the show to talk about that and other guests. And there is research now showing that, that they really do feel that it is the skin barrier that is more the issue than ingesting it. So then the question says, what happens as an adult? I'm putting all these— I'm putting all these natural food-based skincare products products all over my eczema, my psoriasis, whatever, can like that? You should wonder, like, we're not that different from a baby. I mean, we're still a human being. We're obviously very different, but we're still a human being. So can an adult start to develop reactions to foods because they're applying it to a compromised skin barrier? I asked Dr. Liu.

This.

He said it is not implausible and that we should be careful, even though, again, and again, this is not advocating for like these fancy companies making with like the, you know, the whole back of the bottles covered in ingredients. I'm not saying that, but we do have to be careful applying food directly to the skin. And sometimes food grade may not necessarily be the best thing when the skin barrier is really compromised. So how does that play a role then with our diet? So you can develop food sensitivities. I would argue that food sensitivities are the result of having a leaky gut or gut permeability, as it is known in literature, right? There's almost like 7,000— um, you search PubMed, there's like 7,000 different articles that will come up with gut permeability. So for anyone who says like, oh, that's not a thing, it is a thing. You can just search gut permeability. The problem is gut permeability or leaky gut's not, not the problem. And we've, we've for some reason, I think because of marketing and because of functional medicine, we got kind of stuck on this idea that everybody has leaky gut. So I want to heal my leaky gut. And the reality is we— it may not be the foods that you're reacting to themselves, like they are not inherently bad. Bad. It may be what is happening between gut dysfunction and the gut microbiome when you consume those foods, and thus we have this leaky state that you're now having an abnormal reaction to those foods. So can food sensitivity tests be helpful? Sometimes. Sometimes they lead us down pathways that cause us to eliminate foods unnecessarily If your gut's leaky, whatever you eat is gonna show up as a moderate or high sensitivity. I had one client, I'll never forget, she had some weird squash that showed up on her food sensitivity test. She didn't even know what that was. She never eats it. So, they show a lot of inaccurate responses, unfortunately. And again, if you go and change your diet to what it tells you, oh, these low ones, the low, you should eat those. Lose, right? How many times have you heard, like, a lot of, uh, practitioners say that? They're like, oh, you should cut out the high and the moderate sensitivity, just focus on the low ones. You redo the test and now you're sensitive to even more things because those are the things now predominantly in your diet. Again, the problem's not the food, it's the leakiness within the GI tract. So the other factor here we do have to be cognizant of is that there is more current research showing that when you unnecessarily eliminate food. So for example, I like eggs. I personally think if we're going to talk about any like superfoods— and I kind of hate that term— but if we're going to talk about anything being a superfood, I think an egg is a superfood. Organic eggs. I personally do. Organic eggs. Organic eggs are a superfood. But if you go into eczema Facebook groups, they'll tell you eggs are bad for eczema. What happens when you eliminate eggs because you read online that somebody told you it was bad for eczema and it's inflammatory? You take eggs out, you still have eczema, didn't do anything. Well, I can tell you what can happen, not to everyone, but to a client. She took out eggs. About a year and a half later, we start working together and we're trying to reintroduce foods as quickly as we can into her diet because of how much she had eliminated. We get to eggs and she sends me this horrific photo of her face. Lips are all blown up, eyes are all red. Head, skin is all splotchy and swollen. And I'm like, oh, uh, you, you need to go to the allergist. That looks like an allergy. And she's like, no, no, no, I think I just had a rash flare-up. I'm like, no, no, please humor me. She has such an egg allergy, she needs an EpiPen now. And she did not have an egg allergy prior to eliminating them. So the, the current research does show that by unnecessarily eliminating foods, you can develop develop upon reintroduction an actual IgE allergy to those foods. So, again, I'm not saying this to scare anyone, but we should be more cautious about the foods that we eliminate, especially when they are healthy, whole foods. I'm not gonna sit here— I mean, Claudia, I think you and I are on the same page. We're not suggesting that like, "Oh, let's just keep it all in, including your McDonald's lunch and all of the soda and everything." We're not saying that. But I think we're— we're right. I think the problem is when we get into demonizing real food, the real single ingredient thing that came from the earth or that is very minimally derived. Yeah, I think that's where we get into trouble. And the price of trying to heal your skin and your health in my book is not— it shouldn't be an eating disorder or food fear or because is just because your skin, say, clears up, most people still are afraid to go back and eat foods. They're afraid to reintroduce foods, so they don't, and they stay on these very restrictive diets. And our culture perpetuates this idea. If you go on Instagram, it's very easy to find all of these influencers with a million followers who are like, look, I only eat these things, everything else is inflammatory. And we glorify this idea that the smaller our diet is, the more restricted our diet is, it somehow equals health. But we forget in the process the joy of being able to sit at a table and share a meal with family members. We forget about the diversity of cultures and cultural flavors that come with food. I have one client who was from— she's from Iran and everything like lentils and every spice, every— oh, this has salicylates, this has nightshades. You can't have this. It has it has this, it has that. She was like, I can't eat anything from my culture. It's all deemed inflammatory. And I think that that is a very sad state of affairs. So can you heal chronic skin problems without doing massive elimination diets? Yes, that has been a big push for me. I did some research with UC Davis. We interviewed 600 people and they all had chronic skin issues. And we asked about what happens when they eliminate foods and they all acknowledged, um, to varying degrees. But I, and I'm happy to share, uh, the paper with you because it was published.

Yeah, um, link it in the show notes for people listening.

Yeah, when we look at like 18 to 24-year-olds, it's like 80% of these individuals end up with food fear.

Wow.

Because of horrible social media, would you say it's triggering, triggering them, or—

but it's hard, like when you think that the food is the problem, you pit yourself against it. And so now all of a sudden you're like, well, what was in that meal? Was it this? Was it that?

You're recounting. I mean, and pushing up the cortisol and stress levels, which is detrimental to your health at the best of times anyway.

Yeah.

And you're putting yourself at war with something that's supposed to be nourishing and fun and enjoyment.

Yeah. Especially the fact that long term it creates this trauma response. Response that you start to have around food, which is not healthy, it's not good. So I just, I think that's been one of my big, big missions over the last couple of years is to remind people that the way that we can address these things. So again, it's not about saying let's keep all the junk food in, but what are we doing when we're then saying strawberries are bad? I mean, like, I literally get, oh, it's strawberries, they're, they're bad for you. You, you know, or any number like— and don't— we won't even go down the rabbit hole of like meat versus all this other stuff. I mean, we could go in many different directions, but I think it's like, what are we doing? We're missing the boat here on all the other factors that play a role in this inflammatory picture. And yes, you can absolutely have environmental allergies that can be causing things. You can absolutely have some sort exposure, or even actually you can end up with rashes or psoriasis and any number of things as a result of certain medications you're taking. So you should always look at the side effects of the meds you're taking because like I think certain blood pressure medications can actually trigger psoriasis. So I mean, yeah, you know, there are—

there definitely can be the detergents and things that people are using as well, cleaning products, you know, it's just being so aware of that. I, I'm I've had to reeducate— we have a lovely lady who comes and helps clean the house, and she's always telling me to buy these super strong products, and I'm like, I refuse. We use the environmentally friendly ones. And I, I try to explain to her, to encourage other families, like, she's inhaling that, but we're inhaling it. You know, you put these sprays on your desk and then you sit there for hours and you're inhaling these toxins as well. So there are different factors, as you were saying, as well with black mold as well, that it's really important to take into account. And, you know, the diversity of food is so important. I know people here also, they're like, oh, I've eliminated everything and I'm just doing this, that, and the other. I mean, thousands of years humans existed in diversity, you know, as Dr. Mark Hyman recommends as well, have 30 different colors of organic, ideally vegetables, some fruit each week as well. So it's literally just staying on the outside of the supermarket, avoid those inner aisles as much as possible, and have that diversity too. So yeah, I really like your, your mission, Jennifer, and helping people understand that these crazes and trends of just focusing on one specific thing or or even eliminating vegetables and just eating meat. I mean, you know, we're not raised to do that. And yeah, so big, big debate. I know a hot topic for a lot of people as well. Jennifer, I'd like to ask you about the— before we finish up today, the skin microbiome. You mentioned it a few times as well. Some people might be scratching their head saying, well, hang on, I know there's a microbiome in your scalp as well, right? But what exactly is a skin microbiome and how related is it to the gut microbiome, which I'm sure people are much more familiar with and how does one regulate it so that it stays in an optimal state?

So the skin microbiome is this whole environment of organisms, and it can include bacteria, fungus, viruses, mites, all sorts of things that live on the skin. They tend to be different strains specifically for like bacteria, for example. They tend to be different strains than what's living in the gut microbiome. The reason is that they tend to be lipid-loving. So think about it. Our skin is oily, right? We, we produce sebum. And so a lot of times the organisms that live on the skin, depending on the different areas. So there are maps that you can find in literature where they'll show you that like the sebum-heavy areas. So like your scalp, the eyebrows, around the mouth, the chest, where people a lot of times can end up with dandruff or seborrheic dermatitis. Dermatitis are predominantly more Malassezia, which is a commensal yeast that normally lives on the skin. And then other more like sweaty areas and whatnot have a slightly different makeup of the different classes of bacteria. And so they're lipid-loving because that's what they thrive off of, whereas with the gut microbiome, they're really thriving off of fiber, right? And they produce short-chain fatty acids in the GI tract like butyrate, which is really important for gut permeability or reducing gut permeability and tightening up those junctions between the cells and whatnot. So it is different, but I do believe that there are communication signals between the two. That's why I said we've noticed with clients who have had recurrent skin infections infections, where as we work on the GI tract and the gut microbiome starts to slowly go back to a more healthful balance, they usually show a reduction in the number of times that the skin— like how susceptible they are basically to skin infections. Now, look, if you go and lay on the mat at the gym that has MRSA on it, which is the— that those antibiotic-resistant kind of iterations of Staph aureus, that's a different story because that's an external contact that could be a problem for you. But if it's not that and it's literally just that you just keep getting staph infections, or you can also get strep infections on the skin, you can have, as you shared, the tinea versicolor, you can have fungal overgrowth on the skin. We do have Malassezia. You can react to Malassezia. Some people do develop a reactivity to it, but more with dandruff and seborrheic dermatitis, I find that it's reactivity internal so your body becomes reactive to yeast internally and then is seeking yeast, trying to do, you know, be the good immune system for you, and it starts attacking things it's not supposed to. And so, it'll go after those areas where Malassezia predominates. But yeah, the skin microbiome is really important and so is the pH of your skin. You do not want alkaline skin. Actually, you don't want an alkaline colon either. Your colon should be acidic and your skin should be acidic. The skin should stay within a range of 4.5 to 5.5. So water is usually somewhere around a 7, soaps around a 9. So one easy tip that people can use after, say, you wash your face is to— so number one, what you wash your face with does matter, right? Because if we're increasing the pH of the skin, we actually open the skin up to becoming more dry and to allow organisms that are unfriendly like staph aureus areas to overgrow because they actually like a higher pH or a more alkaline pH. So if anybody's like, I need every area of my body to be alkaline, that whole alkaline acid diet thing, you do not want every area of your body to be alkaline. That is not good. And skin is not one of those things you want alkaline. So hydrosols can be really helpful. A hydrosol can be made from like plant materials. So you could see like a rose hydrosol, geranium hydrosol. There's all different types. And it's, it's basically when they go to extract other things to make the essential oils, what's left over, that water essentially is usually that, that's usually what a hydrosol is. And they typically are of a more acidic pH. And so after you wash your face, you can spray your face with the hydrosol. And I like to just like kind of tap gently over my face, very light with my fingertips. Fingertips and then apply any other creams or anything like that. If you're also very itchy, another quick tip, witch hazel hydrosol, not with alcohol, try to get like the lowest amount of alcohol in it. But witch hazel can be really effective for like an itchy scalp or itchy skin. If— but if the itch is because you have an infection, that's a different story. Please go get treated for that. But if you're just itchy, witch hazel hydrosol can be really helpful.

Do you have a favorite brand of hydrosol that you'd say is like always very pure?

I don't. I mean, everybody's all over the world, so I would just look for things that if you can get organic would be great. And again, try no alcohol if possible. But you do, because it does come from a, a process involving plants. I would really stick to whatever the use-by date is. I wouldn't use something that's like 2 years old if If it hits the use-by date, toss it.

Perfect. Okay. What are 3 things, Jennifer, that listeners can do right now to start rebuilding their healthier skin? And what are things that they should definitely be avoiding?

The first thing I would say in terms of rebuilding your gut is something called ghee.

I don't know if you talked about it on your show before, but ghee has butyrate. Rebuilding healthy skin.

Healthy skin.

Yeah.

Yes. Well, let's start with ghee. Okay. Because ghee is really helpful. We eat ghee and it adds butyrate to the GI tract. Helps to kind of seal, helping as best we can to try and seal up the gut permeability. And butyrate is one of those things that's necessary for that because the inflammation happening in the GI tract that spreads out to the skin, we want to try and keep that contained as much as possible. So I do find that ghee is really helpful. Also pistachios, if you don't have a nut allergy or pistachio allergy, also have a good amount of ghee.

So I like those two things. That's good because ghee, I don't like the taste as well. I use grass-fed butter instead or the coconut oil to cook with.

But the grass-fed butter also a good amount of butyrate as well. Coconut oil does not. But yeah, those are, those are two great options. The other thing that I would say is I would try to simplify your skincare routine as much as possible, especially if your skin barrier is really damaged, especially if you've got really dry, red skin. So with like rosacea, for example, you should not topically be using any anti-aging aging. I know that's awful, but like the anti-aging ingredients like retinol and the vitamin C serums and everything can be really aggravating for rosacea. And I would also argue that if you've got rashes on the face, you shouldn't be applying those things to the face either. That would be something not to do. So simplify the skincare regimen, find some sort of simplified soap, like sometimes like rose clay soap or a black clay soap can be helpful, um, especially if you have a lot— if you're very oily. If you're really, really dry, maybe a just a glycerin bar, that can be a little bit more hydrating. Um, maybe sometimes you're just using water, unfortunately, because like you just can't tolerate a whole lot more. Um, and then I would also, when you get out of the shower, before you're fully dry, so you pat your skin dry but you're still kind of slightly moist. I know everybody hates that word, but moist. That's actually the time to apply your moisturizers because you lock in the moisture that is currently hanging out in the skin area, not to wait until you're like entirely dry and an hour later or 20 minutes later, you then apply the cream. That's the time— towel dry off and then apply your moisturizers. And that does help in terms of like other topical things. If you do have any type of like wounds or rashes, you could also try something called hypochlorous acid. Acid. It is naturally made by your white blood cells, specifically your neutrophils, and it can be used topically to help with microbiome dysbiosis of the skin. It can help with the pH of the skin. I wouldn't use it like all the time because unless you have a real significant dysbiosis problem, you don't want to just like be killing everything on your skin. It's not caustic, it's not harsh, but it can be a bit dry drying. So just be aware of that. There's one product I like in the US, it's called Active Skin Repair. I think it might be available in the UK. I'm not sure. I know you can get it in Canada and that can be also really helpful as well for those dealing with like dysbiosis and whatnot. And it's also great for mosquito bites, like amazing to make mosquito bites stop itching. I don't know why it works, but it does.

My father taught me, he's 85, the old school method of saliva on a mosquito bite. It works not too bad as well. Yeah, it neutralizes it as well. So an old school way. Jennifer, if you could live to 150 years old with excellent health, how would you spend it?

I would spend it with the people that I love, snuggling with my cats, and every day being outside in my garden with my fruit trees and whatnot. That is 100% what I would do, because that's what my, my great-aunts used to do. They used to spend time with the family, eating together and being out in the garden, hands in the soil, and that kind of stuff.

That's what I would do. Good for your gut bacteria as well. Gorgeous. What excites you most about the future of health, longevity, um, over the coming years and beyond?

What actually excites me the most is applying some of the things that are working for, I will say, relatively more healthy individuals to potentially those who are having more chronic conditions. So I am very very curious about potentially using peptides for chronic skin problems. So, so I am in the process of researching that. So I think that there's a lot of really interesting ways that where you're seeing this improvement in the bio biological age, my thought is how could we apply that to somebody who maybe that's not their focus, but how could we potentially use it tweak it so that actually could be beneficial to their healing process. Interesting.

So we have to keep us posted if you find something interesting. Have to have you come back on as well, Jennifer. Where can people find out more about chronic skin issues, healing them, internal inflammation for longevity, and also what you're— the work you're doing and what you're up to? Where would you send people?

I would go to my website. So I've got— you can just go to healthy skin show.com. It's easy. It's the easiest way. It'll get you there. There's also the podcast Healthy Skin Show, which we're on all podcast platforms and on YouTube as well. And we have over 300 episodes. So we have a worldwide audience as well. So there's tons of things there and it's for all different chronic skin problems. So it's a great podcast to share for people who are digging and seeking answers. And then I'm on Instagram. I share a lot a lot of, a lot of this insight. But I also talk about a little bit more personal stuff, client stories and whatnot. So you can find me at Jennifer Fugo there.

Beautiful. Do you have any final ask, recommendation, or parting thoughts or message for my audience today?

You don't have to be stuck with chronic skin problems for the rest of your life. This is not something that's just because you got bad genes. It's not because because you're just like, I thought I got the evil eye put on me by somebody. I thought I was damned. Like, I was like, what did I do? You're not damned. There are so many other things. And I understand in going to see a dermatologist and going the conventional route, you're probably not going to hear about this stuff and it might even get dismissed. But I would invite you to check out the different guests that I have on the show because we are talking about research that takes 10 years to get into the dermatologist's office, and we're talking about it now. And so that way you can bring it to your dermatologist not in like a, look, I know more than you, but hey, I saw this, I wanted to see if maybe you wanted to see it. And we can facilitate this change that we want to see happen in conventional medicine, um, by sharing information and hopefully inspiring that change from the top down. That's my idea is like infiltrate and change the system so we all can get better care. But you're not, you're not damned, you're not doomed. And it's not just that you got bad genes, there are so many different factors. And I don't want you to see that as overwhelming. It's, wow, there are other things that I can actually look into. And then I can also take action on that could improve not only my skin and my health, but also the health of my family too.

Beautiful. Such inspiring words. Thank you so much, Jennifer, for coming on today. It's been such a pleasure.

Thanks for having me.