How to Overcome Phobias and Anxiety with Virtual Reality Therapy with Nataly Martinelli

Welcome back, dear audience, to another episode of the Longevity and Lifestyle Podcast. I'm your host, Claudia von Boeselager, here to bring you the latest insights and learnings to improve your health, life, and happiness for longer. Thank you so much for being part of this tribe and wanting to be at your best each day. Please make sure to subscribe to the podcast either on YouTube or Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you listen to, to not miss an episode. My guest today is Natalie Martinelli, a clinical psychologist, author, and pioneer in the of virtual reality into mental health care. I wanted to bring you this episode after speaking with her because I thought it was such a fascinating space to be in and with really amazing results as well. So she has a passion for inspiring transformation and courage. Natalie has dedicated her career to helping individuals overcome emotional challenges and thrive. Starting with a strong foundation in psychology and business administration, Natalie further honed her expertise with advanced training from renowned institutions such as Harvard Medical School. Her unique journey bridges the gap between clinical practice and technological innovation, as she has developed groundbreaking virtual reality applications tailored to therapeutic settings. As the author of Phobia: Facing with Courage, Natalie offers a fresh perspective on mental health, empowering readers to confront their fears and embrace resilience. Her voice has reached audiences worldwide through nearly 200 interviews, articles, and media appearances, sparking meaningful conversations about the future of mental health care. Please enjoy. Welcome to the Longevity and Lifestyle Podcast, Nathalie. It's such a pleasure to have you with us today.

Thank you, Claudia, for the invitation. It's a joy to be here today for this conversation. I'm really excited to share ideas and to learn it together. Thank you.

Oh, I'm so excited to have you on. I think the first time we had a proper conversation, it was like 2, 3 hours. Everyone else had left and we were still— had more and more to talk about. So I'm so excited today and You have such a unique journey, Nathalie, that I'd love if you would share what was your journey to, you know, where you are today and what were the steps that gave you the idea to incorporate virtual reality as well into mental health. But let's start with your personal journey because it is quite unique.

Okay. My experience in virtual reality in mental health started in a very personal way. My husband had an intensive fear of flying. He thought it was almost impossible to overcome, even after trying different therapies and treatments. It's important to mention that around 25% of clients drop out of live treatments or never started because they fear facing their phobic object or related situations. I think it's important to, to get the difference between fear and phobia. Fear, yeah, it's a normal feeling. Fear helps us stay safe. Phobia, it's a very strong fear that doesn't match the real danger. For example, being so afraid of spiders that you avoid going outside, example, even if spiders are not dangerous.

It's like a debilitating fear. So it's preventing you from actually acting in normal day life. That's the extent of the fear. So that becomes then classified as a phobia, essentially. Is that right?

Yes, perfect. Uh, in such cases, people often ask themselves, why do I have this fear? I don't want to live like this. My husband used to feel this way, and this ongoing struggle led us to look for practical and innovative solutions that could truly help him face this challenge. That's when I found virtual reality. Virtual reality, it's a tool that provides a sense of immersive interaction and engagement in a 360-degree artificial environment. Allows, allows clients to observe, explore, and change their own thought process. To use this technology, you need, for example, a standard computer, a specific VR headset. I can show you mine here.

Is it a, is it a very specific one, like a certain brand, or if somebody has one, they can use the, install the technology?

It needs to be specific for the software license. This is the most important. Okay. Something like that. Unlike methods that rely on imagination, which can be hard for logical thinkers like my husband, VR offers a clear and safe way to face fears. Step by step. This approach, Claudia, makes it easier to deal with challenges and build confidence. It shows us that change is possible when the right tools are used. At first, I didn't imagine working directly— I think this is so important to say— directly with phobia in that period, a long, a long years ago. But one phrase that my husband changed everything. He said, you have the knowledge, the practical vision, read so many, many books and a desire to help. I believe you cannot help me, but also transform the lives of many others.

Can you break down exactly how that process works? So you knew, okay, your husband had the phobia of flying. You were doing your clinical psychology practice or that you had as well. And so how did you come up with the idea of marrying the were you already an active user of virtual reality and you're like, okay, maybe we can incorporate something? Or where did the idea come from?

Come from because he had many treatments and it's not work. So we researched different tools for— don't need to imagine to be inside in the airplane. So we found it together, the, the virtual reality, and this makes the treatment better. And more personal. Uh, I think this is the way that we found together, not just thinking but put in practical, the way how you can have courage to facing the fear. I think that words that he told me, actually just to return a little bit, changed my, my career. And as I work with virtual reality, I found many ways that I could making treatments better. This idea inspired me in the past to team up with experts, experts from different areas to create a virtual reality software for mental health. These results was a platform that includes immersive experience to treat phobias, manage anxieties, and improve emotional regulations. It integrates techniques such as mindfulness exercise, diaphragmatic breathings, and others. This path also inspired me to write my first book, that is Phobia: Facing with Courage. I wrote it as a gift for my husband and as a way to share these courage methods I developed during this process. More than a tribute, the book was designed to inspire and help others confronting their fears, transforming their lives, and with strength and determination. I never imagined that along this transformative path, writing would become one of my greatest missions. I remember actually a doctor who, when I was a child, told my parents it would be difficult for me to complete college. Due to the symptoms I exhibited today, I see that our challenges are powerful gateways to skills, self-awareness, and fulfillment when we embrace and act in favor of our own growth.

So let's, let's break that apart a little bit, Nathalie, and maybe you could share a little bit about that as well, like overcoming personal challenges as well. So you were saying that the doctor when you were younger, right, was saying that you wouldn't be able to go to university, do things like that. What, maybe you can provide a bit of context around that, explain that a bit. What motivation did that give you? Like, was it, I need to prove him wrong or like, you know, I believe I can, can you take us to that point in time?

Yes. I used to have epilepsy since I was 2 years old. And after that, eczema, I think dyslexia, dyslexia. I think to be here and talking about that, I think it's a good, good, good challenge. I, I, I I always going with fear. This is make me, I think, have courage. It's, I'm not looking like for the fear. I'm looking for what I need to say, not the form. I think this is so important. Sometimes the people just think I need to say like that. No. What do you like it? See and say big, not by part. And, um, and after that I have MS. Multiple sclerosis. And so it's, I think this is challenges that I prove that it's possible. Everything. Everything.

Yeah. And which I think is so incredible. First of all, with the epilepsy, I mean, I don't, obviously this is going back a little bit in time, right? I'm not saying that you're old, but you know, back then, I think now there's more familiarity, but maybe, you know, when you had it in Brazil, I don't know what the diagnosis or prognosis was back then. Dyslexia, obviously a little bit of a different thing. And recently read a book, This Is Dyslexia, that says that 20% of the world population actually has dyslexia.

That's true.

80% of people don't. And I'm reading the book and I'm like, because my daughter has it and my mother, I'm pretty sure, has it. And I was like, oh, it's genetic. I actually think I have it too. But anyway, different point with the dyslexia and then getting diagnosed with MS. So how was that for you? And normally for most people, they would be, you know, knocked by it, they might give up, etc. But you on the contrary, used it as like fuel for, for becoming this, this becoming your superpower. So can you share a little bit about that?

I think, uh, when you have a purpose in your life, you move it with your heart. So I love what I'm doing. I think it's not just for myself, for my soul. I think, uh, I think this is— everyone have challenges, everyone in their life, but You need to look for the opportunity that this challenge can give to you.

Yeah.

It's not like a big deal, but a great opportunity to move forward, you know, to get better, better, and better. It's not just for you, for, for to say for everyone, it's possible. If I'm here, I have two graduations. I'm today I'm an author actually. And I almost finished my third book, starting my fourth book. So even to speak in English, if you have dyslexia, it's really, really a challenging way, but why? We can do it. We can do whatever you want to do.

Yeah.

I have different skills. Maybe then other people can learn with each other, you know? And, uh, yes, we are together actually. So don't put the name first. Don't put dyslexia, MS, epilepsy first. Put your heart first. What do you like to do to improve your soul? When you improve your soul, you touch another heart.

Beautiful. Yeah.

And say yes for the no, because sometimes people escape for no. No, I can't. I can't do that. I can't say that. I'm going to make mistakes. But Look, so kind for the word no. Okay, let's see what they know, wanted to see for me. Because the people just wanted to say yes, I want this, yes, yes, yes, yes. No, no, no, stop. Just take care about the no too, because the life, it's like this, it's not like that.

Yeah, it's ups and downs.

This way you die. So this movement it's part of the life. No, yes, no, yes. It's like a music.

Yeah. No, that's beautiful as well. And you've really incorporated mental health practices with spirituality. How did you go down that path? Was it from your own personal medical history? And how do you incorporate mental health with spirituality as well?

I think when accepted, You are open for everything in your life. When someone invites you and you say, ah, I don't want to go, for example, just, why not? Why not? What I need to learn if I go? I think you just need to change the thoughts that you used to go with. So just accept it. Accept it. The life, it gives us signs all the time. All the time. But the people sometimes are afraid to accept the signs. I don't want to see that. I don't want to look for that. And I think what I learned in this process, the life is so short because when I used to have epilepsy, I never know if you're going to return. And this is getting me more strong and to accept it the day, day by day. This is the future, to look for the present.

Yeah, to live in the present, right? The life is a series of now, as Eckhart Tolle says, which I love.

Yeah, enjoy it, enjoy whatever, everything actually. Enjoy everything because you can learn in different ways. This is learning with dyslexia because we can learn in different ways.

Well, this is it, it's different ways. And actually, interestingly, Katie Griggs, who wrote the book, and I hope I'm not butchering her name, This Is Dyslexia, I highly recommend recommended it for people to check it out. It's very neuroaffirmative. She was saying that the future needs more dyslexic thinking. Doesn't necessarily mean you need to be dyslexic, but dyslexics are very good at thinking outside of the box, thinking in different ways, connecting dots where other people can't. Because with AI and ChatGPT, they, you know, fixing grammar and things like that, you don't need to just memorize spellings as much, which is harder for people with dyslexia. And instead, it's more about the creativity and innovation, etc., that comes with dyslexic thinking. So I think that that's a very empowering way to actually realize, like, hey, you have superpowers that can be used in other contexts, you know, and especially now going into the, the future with AI and technology as well. So I think it's, as you're saying, like, find the silver lining, find the benefits, like, what's the good out of this thing, and know that it's for a reason that, um, you know, you're here, you have this, um, and can you learn from it and, and grow from it as well. And one thing I really noticed with you, Natalie, is your beautiful, like, positive energy and mindset, and you just kind of exude this warmth despite having challenges and, you know, things like MS, etc. I mean, for some people, they kind of just, you know, shut down when they have that. But you're like, no, I'm going to tackle this differently as well and successfully. Right. So I think that really, really plays an important role. You mentioned something before, Natalie, was the universe is always, you know, showing you signs. There's always signs along the way. And so If someone's listening and like, oh, but I don't think I have signs in my life. I don't see them. How would you recommend people be more open to noticing when signs are coming their way of like what they should be trying, what they should be doing? Do you have any advice?

Yes. I think I read a book that said to say yes. Yes. Just say yes. When your child asks you for you play, Say yes. When you looking for everything around, you say, thank you. Yes, I'm going to do it. It's easier to say here, Claudia von Boeselager, for you today, I don't want to go to make that. It's going to be a big challenge for me. And I used to have my vision problem that, you know, because of MS. So it's easier to say, but the signs. Don't say to me that. The sign said she invited me. So why not?

Yeah.

Why not? This is the sign because you invite me. Just try. Just try. Just do your best. Why not?

Yeah.

I think the people are thinking about the risk. What risk? What's the risk?

And let's say, for example, if someone or, you know, has like an opportunity or two opportunities, right? Whatever it might be, but trying to decide, because how do you allocate your time, right? That's the one resource that we're all limited with, although there's another conversation around what is time, but we won't go there right now. What, what would you say is the best way to assess opportunities if there's, you know, two competing opportunities? So you need to dedicate either A time to A or time to Project B. What's the best way do you like tune into things?

Uh, I think the way closed when it's not for you. You just need to accept that.

Yeah.

Example, you used to have, example, many clients, but now change it. Have just a few clients. Okay. But in another way, you never stopped writing. Example, you never, you can't stop writing. Can't, can't, can't you have some? Some, some, some, a lot of ideas actually you wanted to put on the paper. Okay, just go this way. Why are you getting insisted in that? It's possible you can return it to have many clients another period. But yeah, when you just accept it, okay, now I need to stop just writing, it's the life is getting more light, you know. You not get a pressure, I need to do that, I need to that. No, just, okay, let's go. Oh, let's go the way. Not fighting, not fighting.

Yeah, not resisting it as well. That's interesting because I was thinking of a conversation with a friend, and maybe for people also listening, like, context. So you were saying you used to have tons of clients, now there's less clients, but you have more time for writing. And I have another friend also who has a few less clients at the moment we're having this conversation, and maybe it's opening up to say use the time to be writing more as well. So I think that that's, that's, I think, part of like noticing the signs of, okay, if this isn't so busy, as this isn't as usual, like, what is it opening up the door, what is it giving me time to do and to focus on for other things too? So I think that's a really interesting point. Yeah. And so was it through your husband and that you came, started down the path to understanding phobias better?

Yes, that's true. And now we are here actually living in London. Now he can travel.

I got on the plane.

He's fine. So yes, because during the sessions not specifically with him, but with my clients, example. Clients are placed in scenarios that are closer to reality in the interactive simulation challenges and at the same time relaxing situations. So virtual reality, I think it's important to say, creates a safe and controlled space. It helps clients face their fears slowly, step by step, like creating new habits. So this reduces anxiety and builds confidence. So it's important to emphasize that virtual reality does not replace traditional therapy methods, but acts as a complementary tool that accelerates the treatment process. So when integrated with conventional techniques, it provides a unique opportunity to enhance results, offering a practical and effective approach to various emotions and behaviors challenged. I think that this tool, Claudia, represents a significant advancement in the field of mental health. Yeah. As it integrates visual and auditory and makes the therapeutic process more engaging and effective. Recent studies, I think it's important to say, have shown that VR can improve learning and retention. For instance, I studied, compared the effectiveness of virtual reality with traditional platforms like a computer, tablets, revealing a 10% increase in memory retention among the participants using VR. Imagine this tool for dyslexia, with having this kind of issues, even for the memory.

And especially the visuals as well, which help dyslexic people tend to be visual as well. And so that's across the board. Board, was that study done on adults or on children?

Adults.

Adults. Okay. And so 10% memory increase from the research?

Memory retention among the participants using VR. Yes.

How long did they use it for? Was it daily? Like, what was the protocol? Do you know?

Actually, I need to double-check. I need to double-check. It's a long time ago.

Yeah, maybe send the link and we'll put it in the show notes so people can have a look at it too. But I think, I mean, especially, you know, as we age and people are like, oh, my memory's gone, etc. If there are different innovative modalities for people to use.

Yes.

I think it's, you know, 10% is a lot, right? If you can remember 10%. And I wonder, does it like, is it cumulative, right? So if you keep improving 10% every year, you're going to be, have 100% memory retention would be amazing as well.

Yeah. I think I have some researchers also suggested that virtual reality can improve neuroplasticity. I think it's important to say, Claudia, encouraging the brain to form new connections, connections, yes, as clients practice and reinforcing positive behaviors in virtual settings. In education context, VR is especially beneficial.

Beneficial. Beneficial.

Thanks for my dyslexia, Claudia von Boeselager, to help me. No problem. Neurodiversity. Individuals such as those with autism, dyslexia, by improving interactive and multisensory environments that align with their unique ways of learning. Actually, I think virtual reality is more than a tool. It's a bridge to a safer, faster, and more personalized therapeutic education experience.

So is it all like, are there several different in the space? Like you, you came up basically for the virtual reality for phobias or also for other areas as well?

Yes, for another areas actually. I think it's important to, to say many people's asking me, uh, what's What's the difference between therapy with or without VR? I think I'm gonna answer after your question. The answer is really simple. VR helps people absorb therapeutic context better than using multiple senses at the same time. This, uh, thinking, let's gonna think example. I think I love examples. Thinking a chocolate cake. Therapy is the cake. A cake, great when made with the right ingredients like knowledge, experience, and care for the client. Now imagine adding a rich chocolate frosting that makes the cake even better. That's what VR does for therapy. VR doesn't replace traditional therapy, just like a frosting doesn't replace the cake. It's an extra layer that makes the experience richer and more engaging. VR has been increasing use in mental health, Claudia von Boeselager, in positive results in conditions such as, that are you asking me, example, autism, phobia, depression, panic disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, acute pain. I remember a good research about that. Mindfulness, among others.. For example, in post-traumatic treatments, VR allows clients to safely revisit and process traumatic experiences in a controlled environment. In mindfulness training, VR immerses using calming landscapes, enhancing focus and relations And by creating immersive and controlled environment, VR enables clients to experience situations that would be difficult to recreate in real life. Example that I told you about my husband with an airplane. It's so hard.

You know, you can try him out in an actual airplane and he's like, no, no, I want to leave. And you're like, no, we're stuck in here.

So this example, actually, you could gradually face each step before the experience, from entering an airport to taking off, in a scenario that was adjusted in real time by the therapist. While observing the senior, breathing techniques and the relaxation exercises were introduced to help deactivate the sympathetic nervous system and activate the parasympathetic Parasympathetic nervous system. Yeah, it's much like shifting the balance of a seesaw. It's like that, like a seesaw. This shift promotes a state of calming, reduces anxiety, stress, while enhancing the therapeutic exercise. In my first book, Claudia von Boeselager, The Phobias Faced with Courage, I mentioned that the case study of Clara, her name has been changed, but she's a real client. Claudia shares that just thinking about going to the hospital made her feel scary, really, really scared. Because of this, she avoided blood tests for 4 years, around 4 years, and didn't take vaccine for 6 years. I think that's that number. In our sessions, we use virtual reality to simulate hospital scenarios. Like getting a blood test, example. This helps her practice managing her symptoms in a safe and controlled environment. This helps her practice to manage her symptoms over time. It's really, really nice. She, she learned how to handle her emotions and physical sensations step by step. And thankfully, after a treatment plan that combined different techniques, including virtual reality— it's not like just virtual reality, it's important to say— Claudia overcomes her fears. Now she can even donate blood. So it's amazing.

So I wonder, Natsi, just to ask there, is it because they're doing the visual simulation of what it would be like to go into the hospital, to wait? To know that you're going to be pricked by a needle, like things like this, right? And you, the first time they do it, even in virtual reality, I could imagine that it triggers, you know, the increase in heart rate, etc. Like it must trigger still fear in virtual reality, I think. Yes. I don't know. And then each time they do it again and again, they realize, okay, I'm safe, I'm okay, I'm safe. And so it's rewiring that neural pathway to trigger I'm in danger to actually realize like I'm safe, I'm okay, I can stay in the parasympathetic. Is that what's happening? And how many sessions needed, or it depends on the client.

But super innovative. I have a study example in area— in the area like specifically for phobias. There is a study with 23 people with spider phobias and they use VR. I think this is very interesting to say. During the sessions, participants, uh, slowly got close to a virtual spider step by step These results was impressive. 83% of them showed much less fear just using VR. Okay. Some even managed to get closer to a real tarantula with little or no anxiety. And I have another one, another study that involves 18 volunteers. With a fear of heights, yes, and acrophobia. Oh, fear of heights.

Yes, acrophobia.

And the participants underwent a blind scan before and after a virtual exposure therapy treatment. The VR simulations involve walking on a transparent platform. Imagine. Okay. Above a canal of 8,000 meters. And after 8 exposure sessions, 8. Okay. The results showed significant improvement in acrophobia symptoms along with change in brain metabolism in areas related to anxiety and fear. This study suggests that virtual exposure therapy can lead to neurobiological changes in the brain.

Yeah, because the brain doesn't know what's real or not, right? That's why they say like mindset is so big, you know, being careful, your NLP, right? What the words you use, because it doesn't know, is it you're just saying it or are you really, you know, if people say like, oh, I'm stupid or something like, don't say that because your brain will show you examples of you being like that as well. I mean, walking at such a high height, even in virtual reality, I'm already like, well, and not that I'm— I would consider myself scared of heights, but definitely, you know, on a clear transparent platform, like a very, very high level, you know, I think your body triggers a bit of fight or flight. So it's amazing that they can go in just a few sessions from terror, essentially, like being so scared, to being relaxed walking on a platform like this.

Yes.

That's phenomenal. Yeah.

Even for the pain, I think it's not just for phobia that I remember that I would like to say about the pain. The acute pain. One study showed that virtual reality therapy lowered activities in the insula, insula, part of the brain that senses pain. It also reduced activity in the anterior, anterior? Anterior? Cingulate cortex. Yeah. Which controls emotional reactions to pain. Yeah. And this study found changes in the frontal cortex, the brain area that helps manage pains. So actually, this is amazing. Imagine these tools, um, in, at hospitals.

Yeah, exactly. To, for people with chronic pain as well. And it's interesting, as you were talking, I've had guests on who also work in particular in the US with psychodelic-assisted therapy, also with like ketamine and things like this too, also for treating chronic pain, but even PTSD, etc. So I even wonder, and I don't know, has there been studies or do you know if there's anyone who's done like psychedelic-assisted therapy coupled with virtual reality therapy as well?

Yes, I read a few weeks ago actually, study with 57 People showing that virtual reality can help explore spirituality in a new way. People said they felt strong emotions and had insights about themselves after using virtual reality. They compared it to mystical experiences with psilocybin. Yeah, found in mushrooms. Did VR experience use lights, sounds, and movement to make people feel connected to something bigger and bring calm and deep thoughts about life and purpose? So imagine they compare it, a mystical experience, with psilocybin. So imagine the power of these tools, you know, even for that situations. And it was like an interesting research. It's like 57 people showing that it helps him for this way.

So I know these are outcomes I think are so amazing. I mean, also in the psychedelic space of, you know, SSRIs, right? So the antidepressants that people are put on, and there is a case obviously for different circumstances, et cetera. It's shown that they're very quick to be put on them. For example, even women with menopausal symptoms are thought to need an SSRI, which is maybe looking at the hormones first, but that's a different conversation. And so the effectiveness of the SSRIs, if you compare it to a psychedelic-assisted therapy, I'm more familiar with the research on that. I mean, you're looking at outcomes with the psychedelic-assisted therapy of like 70, 80-plus percent success. Versus with SSRIs, it's just, you know, maintaining, managing symptoms. There's no reversal of symptoms or success from it as well. So it sounds so promising with the virtual reality too, that it's another modality that is so powerful and strong to help people with certain mental health things. And, you know, it's such a huge topic coming out of COVID I think there was a real mental health pandemic that was coming about and you know, for phobias, but also for other things as well. A question, Nathalie, what is the virtual reality therapy not for? Are there certain mental health conditions where you would say it wouldn't be very helpful or beneficial?

Although virtual reality is a powerful tool, it's important, Claudia, it's a good question to note that in some cases it can cause nausea, dizziness. This happens because the eyes see movement but the body stays still. Yeah, they avoid these therapeutics. Can make sessions shorter and slower based on how each person feels. Developers are working to improve VR by slowing down virtual movements and making the image better. This helps reduce discomfort. It's also important to know that a very small percent of people, around about 2-25%, may have seizures caused by light, especially those with epilepsy. For me, it's opposite, actually. I never feel nothing. I just feel better, good things, actually. Yeah. So, but it's important to mention because this is a study. And the studies show that with the right adjustments, over 90% of people can use virtual reality without major issues. So I think it's a high number actually.

But is there like for certain conditions? So you mentioned like for phobias, it's very beneficial for PTSD, autism, like let's say schizophrenia, bipolar, certain conditions like that. Can virtual reality help or is that not really a use case?

Oh yeah, it's helped in different ways. Really? Yes, in different ways.

Yes. Yeah. So for people interested in learning more and maybe trying it themselves, like, are there many practitioners in the world, Nathalie, that use this? Or where should people go to find out more about it?

Actually, there are many places, companies actually, they are developing softwares for different abilities, different actually approaches. So example, and even that there are a lot of researchers doing at the same point that I remember. Example, I studied with 15 people facing severe depression. I think it's important to add this. Use a virtual reality session lasting 3 to 8 minutes over 6 weeks. Participants attended 1 section per week. Uh, in these sessions, they comfort a crying avatar. By speaking compassionate words. Later, the rule is reversed, reversed, and the participants experience receiving compassionate words from another virtual avatar. The results show a big drop in several of depression and self-criticizing. At the same time, it was a significant increase in self- compatience, showing the power of VR can be in a therapy. So returning to your question about, you can find the example, there's software specific for psychology, even for use at the hospital. We have specific companies. So even for, I have the example that is studied that I told you about the energies and the spirituality, a new way example, have a company specific to develop this kind of software, you know. And this is, we can find in the internet, it's easier. And you have to pay, you have to pay a fee like per month to can use it, this program. And you just need to have the headset for that.

And do people need to purchase the headset or could you rent it?

You have to purchase it. Depends, depends, depends the company and the The company that I used to work at, actually, that I created, it's like, uh, you pay for monthly and you have, yes, all the environments and you can access even the protocols, how to use it. And you have, you know, after the sections, you have some exercise. So yes, you have everything in the package.

Included in that too. Yes. Yeah. And, um, if somebody's looking for a practitioner, like a therapist that's trained in this, is there something they should look out for any certain type of qualification? Is there like a gold standard or just somebody who's trained in virtual reality?

It's just a tool that I use to do some courses, you know, for the people who have a knowledge to how to work it. We use these tools and the sections, but you don't need to have some, you know, degrees specific for doing that because it's like a tool to complement a therapy.

Yeah. Okay. So they, they, once they have it, then the, the software is already programmed in such a way that it's helpful. Okay. Amazing. So I'd love to touch on your book again. I know you wrote it as a tribute to your husband. You were saying as well, Phobia Facing with Courage. For people maybe with phobias, and I mean, just thinking myself personally, I have friends who have, you know, fear of flying, fear of heights. I'm sure some other people have other ones. At one stage in my life, I had a fear of deep water. I think I watched too many Jaws movies when I was little, thinking the shark is going to come. Thankfully, that's, that's through as well. Who would you recommend to read the book?

Everyone, not specifically for the people who have some phobia. I think the book is for, you know, inspire a courage inside of you, you know, to make more, uh, it's, I created a courage method. To help people facing emotional challenge, not specific for phobia. Life involves building— just see the first word for the word courage. Life involves building confidence, and I will explain how to get that. Obtaining emotional adeptness. Relax and breathing. Accepting your emotions. Guiding your thoughts. E, establishing a plan. Taking one small step at a time to move forward. And finding motivation. Motivation and joy. Celebrate. Because motivate, M, and courage in Portuguese, M. Okay, then motivate and joy. Why, uh, celebrate small wins and improve your process. Imagine if I put this— I put it in my book and explain each word. Actually, it's not for someone who has a phobia, it's for everyone. It's universal.

Yeah, beautiful. Let's talk about future and, you know, what, what looking toward, towards the future. Are there any specific goals that you hope to achieve in the world of mental health, or how do you see the future of mental health and what are some things that you see developing that you are excited about?

That we talking about. I truly believe it. We are talking a lot about virtual reality. I think it's good to say again, has the potential to transform mental healthcare in the present and the future. As technology improves, I think VR will become easier to use, more affordable, and the more personalized it is, the more people would benefit from it, either in therapy sessions, hospitals, education, even at home. Why not? In my opinion, VR also shows incredible promise in education. I think this is most important for me. It's really, I think, because of my background, especially for neurodiverse individuals. Like those with dyslexia. Studies suggest VR can improve focus, understanding, and engagement by offering interactive and multisensory experiences. For example, I believe immersive environments can turn abstract ideas into something tangible and makes it easier for students with dyslexia to process information. Like a student with dyslexia might find it hard to understand how planets, example, orbit the sun. With virtual reality, they can enter an environment where they see the planets. Imagine, my goodness, if I had this in one of my—

Yes.

Amazing. And they are moving and watch the solar system.

System.

Wow, you know what was amazing? If they were there, he can't escape it, you know.

Yeah, in the solar system, sliding on Saturn's rings.

Such amazing, the concept easier to understand. I can look at, imagine if I have these tools when I was child, it's going to be really, it's not a very specific for the people who has this galaxy, you know, for everyone.

For children in general.

Yeah.

I mean, how cool is that to experience the solar system and fly in outer space to be like, ah, there's Pluto. There's, well, it's not even a planet anymore, but Saturn and Jupiter, et cetera. Yeah. Do you think that that could be a standardized tool for teaching and education in the future?

Yes. For the present.

For the present.

Yes. Even also think for hospital. Hospitals could use more VR to provide relaxed environments because people can escape. Imagine, or distraction techniques during treatments, making the experience less stressful and more manageable. I feel VR is on the path to become a powerful tool for building more inclusive and effective approaches to mental health and well-being. I also believe this technology can help many, many, many students who learn differently. Differently. Yes. I think so. So I think this is for the present and the future, answering your question.

No, I think it's very exciting. I know speaking with someone who was like, oh, it's an escapism, right? So some people, so maybe critiques of virtual reality, it's like you're escaping reality. Um, instead of, let's say, going inside, what would you say to a criticism like that?

I, I show it, many researchers that helps in different ways. So it's not about me, my opinion, it's about researchers. Sure. So I think we have this answer. So it's a rich therapy. I think when you use the correctly way, the correctly way, I think we can improve many things.

So, and it's only a few minutes, right? You were saying it's like an 8-minute, 10-minute session.

I do not recommend using more than 20 minutes. So it's, it's a short period. And, you know, when they, if you, you working with, you know, the balance of your hormones, you know, even the parasympathetic, sympathetic, you know, you have to manage it. You have it great, the good ways, you know, you just use the traditional tools. You just put it in a VR.

As the layer on top. Yeah. You were mentioning.

Amazing.

Natalie, for my listeners interested in understanding more about increasing their knowledge around sort of different modalities, particularly maybe even around virtual reality for mental health conditions, is there like, you know, books, obviously your book, right? But any other resources or online resources you would recommend they start with?

Uh, yes, I can. I can. I made some documents about just researches, and I can share if you like it. Uh, I can translate. It's in Portuguese actually, but I can translate for English, and you can find in this, uh, in this, uh, a lot of, a lot of researches. So yes, it's possible. Yeah, I can share with Let me just translate for English and share with you.

Or do you have it on a website somewhere?

Do you have a website where you send people? I have it and I can send it and I can put it there. Some things I have many, I did almost 200 interviews. So yes. And almost for VR. So I think I have it in English and Portuguese there, so we can You can see the searches and the, yeah, the stats. Yeah. And people can translate.

Yeah. People can translate the page. What's the URL for your website, Nathalie? And we can link it in the show notes as well.

www.nathaliemartinelli.com. Yeah. Perfect.

So, and Nathalie is with a Y at the end. But for everyone listening or watching, we will link it in the show notes so you can find it there as well. And where can people follow what you're up to on social media? Do you have any social media handle that you would like to share with people?

Yes, my Instagram, it's like my name, it's like the same. Yes, keep in touch, keep in touch.

Perfect. Yeah, we'll, we'll, we'll link that in the show notes as well. Natalie, do you have any final ask or recommendation or any parting thoughts or message for my audience today?

Um, yes. If I could leave one message, it would be about the word that moves me, that we started to talking about— courage. Courage, it's not the absence of fear. It's about moving forward despite— it's about believing that every step a little help, no matter how small, is proof of your strength. So when you let yourself fill with kindness and acceptance, you open the door to real growth. Courage isn't just about facing fear. It's about growing beyond and becoming the best version of yourself.

So here's to more courage. That's beautiful. Thank you so much, Natalie, for coming on today. Thank you everyone for listening and checking out the podcast. It's been such a pleasure.

Thank you, Claudia. Thank you for having me.