Improving Athleticism, Becoming A Better Player, and More ft. Will Swiggum (@willoverskilltraining)

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Welcome to the Vision Driven Basketball training Podcast. Appreciate you guys for tuning in today. Apple Podcast, Spotify, YouTube, wherever else may be listening from. Have a guest on with us this week, and I'm super excited to have him with us. A lot of you guys may follow him on Instagram as well. I know he's one of my favorite followers that I have from Will over skill training Will. But for me, you know, I think I probably started following about six, six months ago, and I think the first thing that I noticed was the place that he trains out of, and he calls it the Barn. And actually, I think it was on, like, House of Highlights or something too, which was. Which is really awesome. But then a lot of stuff that he does is kind of in line with the stuff that I'm doing, and so I'm excited to have him on, get his perspective and hear more about the stuff that he's doing. So I'll give you the full right here. I appreciate you coming on and anything that I may have missed right there or that you can add into that, go for it.

Oh, yeah, thanks. Thanks. It's a pleasure to be on here. You know, I've been a fan, like, you know, I've been following you for the last, you know, couple months, and I've also been listening to every. All your podcasts, and it's been a nice, you know, nice way for me to, like, learn about basketball while I'm driving in my car, my sessions, and my practices. So it's definitely an honor to be on here. So, yeah, I guess, you know, I've been into training here for the last, you know, skills training for the last probably six years. I played college basketball just at a Division 3 school in my home state of Minnesota. And, you know, I got to experience, you know, what D3 basketball is about and, you know, had a good career. And I felt like, you know, I played well in a really good conference. The MIAC is the conference that I played in. Usually we have top 10 teams in the nation every year. So it's. It was a really good experience for me. Our team that I played for, we kind of were bottom half of the league, but I got thrown into the fire right away, and it was really good for me. So, you know, I really enjoyed that. And I got into training because of that, you know, just working myself out, bringing some kids along the way, and just kind of, you know, getting into the whole business of basketball outside of the season. And then, you know, that got me into coaching and got me to continue to Keep playing as well. And yeah, now I have my own gym where I train, it's called the Barn. And yeah, it was pretty cool to, you know, get some recognition from some of these big social media platforms. And it was, it was cool because it wasn't about me, it was about like my family and, and the Barn itself. And so definitely, you know, really, really cool and got a lot of positive feedback from people on it. So.

Yeah, no, that, that's awesome. And I, I think, you know, you mentioning D3 basketball, I think more and more so, like people are starting to recognize this, but I think for me especially so my younger brother's playing, he's a freshman playing Division 3 basketball this year. And like you don't quite understand like how good those dudes are at that level until you can kind of see it firsthand. And obviously you've, you've played it so you know just how competitive that level is. You can kind of speak to it a little bit. But I mean there are a ton of Division 3 dudes who, I mean there was a Division 3 coach I was talking to and he was like talking about when he's recruiting, he's basically like, yeah, we're looking for Division 1 level dudes who are just like missing one thing. Like they're missing one thing and they're like, like, we gotta like, we'll take a dude, he's six' nine and if he was six' eleven, he'd be division one. Like that. That's, that's a lot of times how some of these coaches approach it. So I mean for you, you know, you, you and playing with top 10 teams and all that, you got to experience some of the best basketball in the country.

Yeah, it was, it was crazy. You know, I, I was kind of a late bloomer. I was under recruited. I only played two years of RC basketball. You know, I, I had to play a role my junior year and I was just kind of a rebounder and, and my senior year, that's when I really took training serious and you know, I started getting books from these schools and obviously, you know, being a senior, kind of coming out of the woodworks, you're not going to be highly recruited. You know, you had to prove it. And you know, I was kind of a stringy long, you know, forward, kind of didn't really couldn't handle it real great. But I had to play inside, you know, small school, 6 5, that's kind of a big person, you know, so, so I kind of was in a weird position and so, you know, but I was athletic, I had high motor, could shoot it a little bit, played hard on defense. Just whatever, you know, whatever you needed me to do, I could kind of do it. And so there was a couple of schools in that conference that recruited me, but there was one that for sure was like, you know, hey, we want you to come here. You know, you're going to play right away. And I got to start all four years in this conference, which, you know, like, when I got to go against guys that were literally D1 transfers that are drop downs, that, you know, every. Every team had multiple guys that were D2, D1 transfer drop downs on these teams and guys that were all thousand point scorers. Everybody was, you know, really good shooters. And I think that's something that I. I always tell people too, is like, skill wise, D3 guys are just as skilled as D1. It's just usually probably like the size that's kind of the biggest thing. The bigs, for sure. Like, you know, D3 bigs are probably more like 6, 7, 6, 6. You know, D2, they're like 6, 9, 6, 8. And then, you know, you're looking at like 6, 10 for D1 guys. And they can move, you know, so. But I would agree, like, you know, they're usually just they. I mean, because I got to coach also at my school as well. And, you know, we recruited kids and, you know, a lot of times we're looking at multiple skill sets and trying to find out where they're going to fit. And, you know, they have to be able to handle the basketball, they have to be able to shoot the ball at a high level. Everybody can score, you know, if you're getting recruited, so what else can you do? Kind of thing.

Yeah, yeah. Well, then that was going to be. My next question was like, you know, for. For those players who want to go to that next level, because like you said, like, when you get there, everybody was the best player on their team. Everybody was all conference, everybody was all state. Like, everybody did that. So then it becomes about separating yourself and I think understanding the fact that, like, there's so many kids out there, if you're in high school, listen to that. There's so many kids out there who are vying for one of those few spots, right? There's, I mean, I've done the math on it before, and I'm blanking on the exact numbers, but there's. I want to say it's like 400,000, like, eligible players on average in every high school class. Who play basketball on this, on the boys side, I don't know what, the girls are probably pretty similar to that as well. And for like college roster spots that open up, it's like 17,000 a year at every level combined. So if you want to get one of those spots, then it takes you separating yourself and understanding, like, listen, like if, if you're one of those players to get those spots, chances are like you had to beat out a lot of people to get it. So you're going to have the best of the best at all those levels, you know, kind of regardless. And I, you know, I've seen situations where like kids will have like a dad who coaches the team. Kid probably could have gone to a scholarship level where, hey, my dad coaches here and I'm going to go play for him. And so now you have these dudes who like, for whatever reason end up at these different levels. So like you said, like the actual talent, it's, there's no drop off, but it's really just that size athleticism. And so, you know, kind of, to go back to the point that you were talking about with the barn, I'm kind of interested in how that came about and kind of you said the meaning behind it with your family and all that. So where did that come from and how has it progressed to where we are now?

Yeah, so the barn, it's located on one of my family's farms. So where my dad grew up, my grandpa was a full time farmer and you know, had dairy cows and did the whole thing, you know, and they, they had this land. It's kind of, it's probably about 10, 15 minutes from where I grew up, where my dad and my mom had their house. And so we've always had this chunk of land. And my grandparents don't live there anymore, but we still own the farm and had to, had to do a lot of work out there, you know, just chores and whatever, you know, helping my grandpa. And you know, they always had this barn there that was just kind of sitting there. And so it was like, I don't know, it was probably a year and a half ago, something like that. And I was just kind of working out there and I was like going in there and I went upstairs and I was just looking, I was like, man, there's a lot of space up here and we're not doing anything with the barn itself. So I was like, you know, I just, I was like envisioning it. And then I saw something on social media. Somebody had done something kind of Similar to, like, you know, building a barn and making kind of a. It looked like a barn inside of it, even though it didn't look like a mainstream gym. And, you know, I. I kind of showed my dad, and we. We kind of talked it over and looked at it, and we're like, this could be possible. I mean, the barn was in pretty good shape. It had some, you know, some stuff that we had to obviously get checked out and kind of go through. But he. He was on board with it because I had been, you know, working a lot outside that before the barn. You know, getting into gyms and training kids and running camps and. And doing all this stuff. But I never had this, like, secured spot. And I think, you know, as a. I guess a trainer, it's. It's. If you don't have a spot to go. Go to and train people, it's pretty tough. I mean, it's. You're. You're kind of. I mean, nothing's for sure. Nothing's guaranteed. And you. I want to have that place where, you know, people can go all the time. And so I think we kind of. Once I had that, the clients built up, and I had been using social media a little bit more, we figured we might as well go for it, and so that's kind of what we went with. And it was a fun process. I mean, it was fun because I had a lot of part in it, like, help building it. You know, I have, you know, renovating it and kind of the blueprints of what we wanted to do. And I painted the floors and had some family help who put in bleachers, things like that. So the whole thing is pretty unique and pretty special to me just because, again, it ties in with my family, and it's on the place where, you know, I learned to work hard. It wasn't even with basketball. It was more just tied into, like, hey, you got to get jobs done out here. And this is where my, you know, grandfather didn't have, you know, like, no vacations as a farmer, you know, he's just always working and putting in that time. So that's what I wanted it to be about. When players come out there, it's a place to work and a place to get better, and that's it. No distractions, nothing like that.

So, yeah, no, that. That. That's awesome. And, you know, talking a little bit about social media, I think the one thing that I would say above, at least for me, above everything else, that kind of jumps out, and I'd say that no Pun intended is when you look at your social media and like you watch some of the dunks that you're doing, like that's something that like you stop and you watch that like four or five more times in a row because like you have, you know. So like for like, was that kind of always a part of your game? Like, were you always like, do you always have that athleticism with something that. I know you said you were kind of a late bloomer, so how did that, how has that kind of progressed when it comes to you just athletically?

You know, I think I was always fairly athletic, but I mean, I'm not like these kids these days where they're literally dunking in like seventh grade. I wasn't doing that, you know, I was like any other high school kid, you know, that was coming up that, you know, I could get up there. But it was, I think it started though when I was a kid, I just was obsessed with like big plays in sports. You know, hitting home run or making the one handed catch or dunking the basketball. Like that's all I was like, cared about. And so, you know, watching guys like Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady and all these guys that I looked up to, like, I emulated them in my backyard. And I think that was like big in my development when it came to like athleticism and jumping because I, you know, worked on this stuff. Like I tried to do windmills when I was eight and you know, on seven foot hoop and you know, I practiced my form and my form got pretty good because of just the countless hours of me just playing out there. And so like when I got to be starting to get older and starting getting taller, I was able to put that athletic system to use because it was just like me as a kid just running around and jumping and stuff. So it was. I, you know, in high school I had some dunks. It wasn't like my athletes and was pretty good, but it wasn't anything like crazy and I wasn't doing any of the dunks I'm doing now. But I think once I, you know, got out of college and really put in some time, you know, with my, my lifting and, and you know, just kind of breaking it down and seeing what my body adjusts too well, I really started to see a lot more improvement. And you know, I've been really just having fun with it. It's not like I'm trying to be, you know, the best pro dunker in the world or anything. I'm just, I've always loved Dunking, and I think it's a. It's kind of like an art form, and it's. It's fun to me. Um, and I know that the guys that I work with, they think it's pretty cool. And. And it's, you know, I can sometimes help them with their windmills or whatever if they want to have some flashy dunks. So. Just fun to do.

Yeah, so. Yeah, so. And that was kind of like, to progress from that. So you said you didn't really start taking it, you'd say seriously until after college. That's when you started to, like, really kind of dive into it.

Yeah, it was like. I know. So my freshman year, I got my vertical measured, and this was on the run, and it was like a 36 and a half. And, you know, I'm 6 5, so I mean, I could get up and dunk pretty easy, but it wasn't like I could go between the legs or windmill or anything yet. And when I last tested, probably a year ago, is probably around a 41, and I think probably right now around a 42 inch. Um, and it's, you know, it's slowly going up. Obviously, you kind of hit plateaus along the way, but yeah, I really. I really kind of been more consistent and just kind of got in that routine of like, you know, I don't. I don't do anything. Like, for people out there that always ask, like, how do you get your bounce up? I don't do anything that's, like, extraordinary. Like, there's not these, like, magic drills that are going to help you, you know, be bouncier. It's just kind of how you structure your workouts, and it's going to be kind of like being consistent in those lifts. So getting strong in your back squat, getting stronger in your power cleans and making sure that you're doing them enough, it's kind of like basketball training. If you're doing your ball handling once a week, it's not going to stay fresh, you know what I mean? And with lifting, I kind of look at it that way too. It's like, well, if I want to get better in my back squat, I mean, I need to do variations of it throughout the week. You know, single leg or some type of isometric hold or, you know, something like that, so that it can slowly progress. And I'm not like, doing the same thing over and over and getting bored or hitting these plateaus. So that's how I look at it with my jumping. And it's helped a lot for sure, yeah.

Yeah, that. That consistency, for sure. And I think to that point, I mean, I'll. I'll approach it from just like, like a bench press perspective. Like, that's when. What I've been focusing on a lot recently, just because that's. That's one thing that, I don't know, I've gotten into, especially I've gotten back into over the past, like, four months or so. But, like, when you go from doing that once a week to doing it three times a week, like, you just all of a sudden get stronger, like, and it seems. It seems crazy because you're like, well, I'm giving my body maybe more days to respond. And you might actually, when you only do it once a week, you might be able to really, like, burn yourself into the ground doing it. You might be really able to kill yourself with it. When you do it three times, you might have to. You might not be able to go quite as hard every single time, but because that volume is a little bit higher, like, the strength gains just. Just come way faster. And it's kind of the same principle. I think you're getting that with. With whether it's, you know, your back squat or practicing your dunks or whatever. Just the more that you do it and, and the more practice that your body gets, the muscle memory that you build to that, that's when those results kind of will. Will start to flow a little bit faster, uh, than if you just were like, oh, you know, I went out one time this week and went crazy for two hours. And then, you know, the next thing is, you know, I didn't do anything for six more days. You know, that's kind of a recipe for not seeing. For either hitting plateaus quickly or just not making progress. And I think kind of going with that, my next question, kind of building on that is, have you dealt with, like, knee pain or any sort of, like, tendinitis or anything like that that goes along with trying to become a better athlete? I know a lot of players might fall into that category where they're, you know, they're working, maybe they're making progress, then, boom, knee pain or, you know, Achilles pain or whatever. Have you dealt with that? And if so, like, what have you done to try and kind of alleviate that?

Yeah, oh, 100%. I mean, you know, when I'm a kid, like, all you want to do, especially when people, like, start learning how to dunk and jump and play, like, all you want to do is do that. Like, there was days I would just dunk every day and just do it all the time. And, you know, you slowly started building up tendonitis. And I had shin splints and, you know, every kind of thing you can kind of think of. I had these little nagging injuries. And, you know, over time I was just like, well, maybe I just take a break. Like, I need to just stay off of it and not do anything. And that does help. But then I go right back into it again, and if you keep that same intensity, you're going to get hurt again. And so I had to learn how to, like, kind of load management my. My body and my workouts and, and figure out, like, okay, if I'm going to start training again here and I'm going to go and dunk. I can't go and dunk for an hour. That's just not going to be good for my body. And so it's like, like running miles. You know, you can't just start out running eight miles. You have to come out and, you know, maybe get a half mile or a mile and just to get used to it. And so that's how I've done with my dunking. You know, I start 5, 10 minutes, slowly work my way up, and then, you know, now I'm at the point where I can go for an hour or so. But, you know, with. With knee tendinitis and shin splints and things like that, I had to do a lot of, like, I realized that rest probably wasn't the best thing. It was to keep it moving and to take away things that were hurting it. You know, if. If I had tendonitis in my knee, I'm not going to just go heavy back squat and keep, you know, irritating it. But I would do more of, like, these isometric holds, things where it's like maybe a little bit less weight and it's more of, like putting stress on that. Those tendons to help them kind of rebu and get those muscles around those tendons stronger as well. So, you know, I actually just posted something on this on social media this past week just because it's kind of that time right now during the season where people are, you know, you're starting to get a little burnt out here. You're running a lot and coaches running you or people are jumping a ton. Like, I have these kids after practice that just try to dunk all the time, and I'm like, you guys got to give yourself a little break here. But so, you know, isometric holds, you know, making sure you're rolling out, you know, making sure. Your muscles are staying loose, and then again, just kind of listening to your body, you know, you can't push through some of these things. You want to. You want to try to keep those muscles strong and then slowly work your way into it.

Yeah, yeah. I think isometrics are so, so huge. And like, even when you're not even not dealing with pain necessarily, like, I've been trying to incorporate those more into just like any in season workout that I have, especially if I'm with a player who, like, I know plays a lot of minutes and just setting aside five minutes, the end of a workout to just do some different isometric holes and different variations of that, I think is so good for. For recovery for those players. So. And that was actually where I. What I. How I thought of that as I just saw on your Instagram that, that you were talking about a little bit. So I figured that was something that would go well with that as well, kind of pivoting to more of the basketball side of things. You know, how I kind of want to get into your overall approach as a trainer and, you know, kind of how you go about training, your kind of philosophies, whether it comes down to, you know, I know that you do a lot of stuff with groups, and I've seen a lot of your stuff when it comes to like, you know, audio cues, which I think have been really, really good. I've got a lot of great stuff from, from your videos when it comes to that as well. Um, but in general, like, how do you go about training now? What's kind of your approach to things? Um, and maybe that even means, like, how has that kind of progressed, you know, from the time that you were a player to maybe where you are now?

Yeah, I guess I'll start with that kind of at the end there. Like, you know, how it's progressed is I, like when I first started, I didn't. I mean, I use like YouTube, you know what I mean?

Oh, yeah.

If I was going to do camps, it was like, you're learning how to do mike and lifts and you're going to do your stationary ball handling and so simple drills. And. And so, you know, I kind of was like, you know, I want to do more. And so I would kind of find these workouts or my coaches would give me like these packets from like Xavier University or like some of these weird colleges, you know, and they would send me these programs and I would do their workouts and a lot of it, you know, a ton of block training, you know, I. It was probably good for me right away, like you said. Like, there's. I. You talk about it a lot, too, on your podcast, where, you know, people are like, oh, block training is terrible. Like, you don't need to be doing it. And I do think that you need to have it in your. Your training. And I do think, like, for me, when I first started, any reps for me was just good. Like, I needed. I needed to get good at my footwork, and I needed to, you know, train that way. And I did that with my players, too. Like, hey, let's just rep this stuff out and be good at it. And. But a lot of times it was, like, overdone. And, you know, you're not training for these imperfections that happen in the game. And so, like, you know, you're running into issues when it comes to the game. Like, guys are shooting really well in practice, but they're not shooting well when they get in the game. So, you know, as I started, you know, seeing these guys, like, Coleman and Tyler and these guys start talking a little more about this being a player, I was like, looking back at my career, and I'm like, yeah, man, if I wish I would have, you know, done some more of these, like, live things or had somebody to give me these cues to put me in these spots, instead of just being like, all right, I'm going one drill pulse for 25 shots from here. Like, plus, it just makes your workouts a lot more fun, you know, I mean, it's not, you know, just doing the same stuff over and over again. So, you know, it's slowly progressed to that, and I think that. But I also, again, like, I incorporate that. That block training as well. So when people come in with me, like, a lot of times, I'm very much, like, I like to communicate with them and talk to them, like, you know, what's. What do we need to work on here? Whether I've seen them play or I haven't, and, you know, I usually tell them, let's. Let's pick a couple of things here that we want to improve on this off season with them individually. And then even if they're in there with their, like, groups, I'm still remembering that, and I know what they need to be getting better at. And I'm like, maybe one day I'm putting them in a situation where we're doing live drills and this guy needs to get better at his finishing, and I'm filming it. I use film a lot to, like, you know, again, show them, hey, here's. You missed. You miss it Short. Most of your finishes here were kind of short on the backboard. We need to work on just finishing it up a higher. And then the next time they come with me, we work on high touch finishes on class and just kind of, you know, incorporate things that we see in our live play to our individual sessions. So I've been doing that more and using film. And I. And I, when I was in college, they were like, two things never lies is film and numbers. So, you know, we record things as well. If I'm with guys and we're doing drills, I like making it competitive. I like adding numbers to it. Like, hey, you got to make five switches in here in, you know, a minute or whatever it is. And it just makes things harder for them, and it puts a little pressure on them. And then we can also see, hey, you shot this last month. You were shooting 30% last time from three, and now you're up to 35 to 40% and you're improving. And, you know, that's. That's the main goal. And like you said, too, when we do a lot of this stuff, sometimes it's frustrating with guys when we're doing live play, because there'll be days where they, like, people will come to me, and they're like, I'm sorry, I had a bad practice today. And I'm like, you're okay. Like, don't worry about it. Like, I want you to fail. I want this to be hard.

Yeah.

And that, you know, that means we're doing something right. If you're struggling in these weaknesses or these weak areas. And so. But then, like, when I see them now and they're in their games and they're working on their ones, they're hitting them when they're contested and they're driving to basket and finishing, I know that these things are helping them get adjusted. It's just hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel sometimes for these guys. So, yeah, that's definitely kind of how I've moved along. You know, it's a lot of block stuff right away. Three hours in the gym not knowing what I was doing and just kind of killing my body. And, you know, my players were getting more worn out, and now they're shorter. They're a little more communication stuff going on. Live play, there's still some form of block training, but a little bit of mix of everything.

Yeah, no, and I think to that last point right there, like, having those workouts a little bit shorter, but at the Same time, like now, at least for me, it's so much more mentally engaging because depending on the player, but especially if it's a more advanced player, like, everything is going to be. If it's not live, there's going to be probably some sort of decision making that you're going to have to make in it. Whether it might be, let's say they're on the wing and maybe we're starting with some sort of maybe like just freestyle, you know, ball handling around the arc. And then maybe they get a go call and they drive. And if my hands go out, they have to kick to the corner and relocate. And if they don't go out, then they got to finish. So now even just to start, like, you're a little bit more mentally engaged because there's another exterior kind of factor that you have to take into account. Instead of just, okay, just dribble and then go to the basket and finish, right? So you can add like a little piece to that, and that can be with, you know, anything. And even, like you said, where you add in pressure sometimes to shooting. Like, instead of saying, okay, we're going to shoot, you know, we're going to go to. You make five shots at that spot and then we'll go to the next spot, next one, next one. Instead of that saying, like, okay, we got to make three in a row to move to the next spot. Like, that is as a more a great, like, game, like, pressure element to it. And, you know, one thing that I love doing now in the. During the season is like, we'll do a drill. It's called baseball shooting, where we get up a ton of. A ton of shots. But basically we'll have like nine spots around the perimeter. So like baseline, low wing, mid wing, high wing, and then top and the other four spots. And then you'll have, you know, three outs at each spot. So you can miss three times, but every time that you make one, it counts as a run. So you're trying to get as many runs as you can at each spot and then getting the whole way around so we can get, you know, on a good, like a good take, like 60, 70 plus makes. But at the. At the same time, there's that element of, oh, man, I got two outs right here. And now you're worried about that. So I think that adds another element to that as well. That's great. And I actually just talked to Tyler yesterday, interviewed him yesterday, and we talked a little bit about this. And specifically with the. Specifically with the mic and drill. He just posted about it, actually, where it was, like, making adjustments to that. So how can we take that drill and make it better, make it more translatable for the majority of players? And it's like, it really can be as simple as, you know, they have the bow and you tell them which hand they're finishing with each time. So again, like, they're a little bit more mentally engaged the entire time. And then, you know, you can. You can add different angles of finishing. You can add different constraints and all that. And I think that was. That's. That's been the biggest thing for me, I think, is just, like, finding different ways to add in constraints. And even, like you said, like, if you're talking to a player and you know they're telling you about, they struggle with this or you've access to their film, which is what I love to do because, like, when I'm. When I'm working with a player and, like, I have, like, any of their games the year before, like, I'll. I'll just like. Like, I'm kind of obsessed with, like. Like, I'll watch it over and over until I, like, know everything. Like, I'll. I'll reference a shot that they had game 12 of the year before, like, as we're in a workout, just so they know, like, okay, if I put this constraint on you, I'm telling you this whole time, like, you're none of the points that you. That you get driving left or driving right count. You only get points going left. And they're like, well, why is this? And I can. I can, like, go back and, like, dig, and I can say, hey, remember against that scene last year, the second quarter when you did that? And it's like, to me, it's like, it gives you a nice. It gives you almost a little bit more of, like. Gives them more of an understanding of, like, okay, this is why we're doing this. And you can see. Like, they can see. Okay, this could actually be helpful to me that I have to be focused on this there. So. But. And I think kind of to the first point that you made when it comes to, like, the whole block verse varied thing. And this is something that I talked about with. With Tyler too. It's like, it's. It's really an art when you try to find a balance between the two of them. Like, it can't just be like, you walk in, you're like, okay, we don't do any block training in here. Like, we'd never do it because Variable is better Random training is better, but you might have a kid, like, you might have a fifth grader who comes in and has only played basketball for six months. And so if you just go in and try and, you know, do all these crazy audio cues, like, he's probably just going to, like, feel way overwhelmed and probably not make that progress. You know, you want to have him, like, in that. In that zone, like kind of where you mentioned, where it's not that you're going to succeed 100% of the time because that's too easy, but you don't want to be at the other end of the spectrum where you're failing. Like, you know, you're failing, you know, 100 of the time or 80% of the time. Like, you want to be in the middle where it's like, okay, 60 to 80% of the time, right in that Goldilocks zone, where it's not too hard, not too soft, but it's just like, just perfect. So finding ways to do that, I think has been definitely where I've grown the most as a trainer is like, how can I keep my players from not being perfect, but also not things being too overwhelming for them? And I think that has been, like, such a big key to understand, and I think, like, kind of going. Kind of going with that. And we talked about this before we even started, but you coach a JV team, which I do as well, so that's kind of a funny thing. Got two JV coaches right here. But I know for. For me, it gives me such a different perspective when it comes to basketball, because you have the player perspective, you have the trainer perspective. But then having the actual team coach perspective, I think makes it even more interesting when it comes to, okay, what actually matters, like, what should we be focusing on? How can I add more elements that help my players into our workouts? For example, like, can I add in if I know that, you know, the driving kick is like a big factor just about every offense that there is in high school especially. I mean, really every level. But how can we add in those different driving kick elements to what we do? And maybe we can work shots out of that instead of just working, you know, stationary shots, for example. So how has coaching kind of influenced you as a trainer?

I think it's. It's definitely like, it's, you know, I get that whole, like, the game slows down for me a little bit more. I start to see things and like, like you said, like, I start to figure out, like, what's going to be more commonly used and what, what do we need to train for? You know, like, again, like, if it's, if I'm, if I'm seeing how kids are getting shots in high school games, I'm going to know kind of exactly what you need to do when we're training, like, hey, you know, these, these shots you might be getting now are not going to happen when you have these closeouts or if it's in a zone. What footwork are we going to need when the ball gets swung and there's a close out from the guy on the top of the 2, 3, you know what I mean? Like, there's just a lot of more things you start to look for and a little more detailed on specific things and just set up like, oh, we're going to do one drill post, but I want you to attack the gap now. I want you envisioning tacking a gap. And if you get into this spot and I put my hands up like a variable, then we're going to be hitting that guy in the dunker zone and that's where he's going to be in the short corner. If we're, you know, running an offense out of his own or, you know, the other day I was working with guys because our offense has some continuous ball screens. And so we were talking about, you know, setting up our screens and, you know, things that you need to be looking for with the defender in front of you, his positioning and his feet, and so just maybe simple jabs. And a lot of it with jb, it's, it's got to be pretty simple. I'm not working with like, my college guys or anything like that. So one, two reads at the most, you know, making it very fundamental. And, you know, I, I think that, you know, I also, for being a coach and a trainer, I, I, I, a lot of times I'll pull kids aside, like during the game and stuff, and I'll be like, hey, you can in the post next time I need you to, you know, go to this move because this guy is playing you differently. And it's just things that I've seen, you know, by watching enough basketball. And it just, it helps guys, I think they can relate to it a little bit more and that you can give them answers a little bit. And sometimes, and sometimes you just gotta let them figure it out too. You gotta just, you know, hey, you know, next time I need you to post and you gotta go up strong and you gotta go off of two feet versus one or whatever it is. And, and sometimes coaches, they just A lot of times they're just like, finish. And they don't. They don't say anything else or tell them what they need to correct. And I think that that's been kind of the advantage, at least for me. I can be like, hey, this is why you're missing, or this is what we need to work on next practice, because we're struggling in this, so. And then have drills for it, you know.

Yeah. And I think it's funny, like, coaching at the JV level. And then like you said, you know, you're not working with your college guys, so you almost have to find ways to, like, be able to become an even better communicator. But you have to be able to, like, really simplify some of the stuff that, you know, you might say something to, like, if I'm working with a college player, like, I might throw something out, and they're gonna know what I'm saying right away. I don't have to be that specific about it. But if I'm with a JV player, like, if I'm working with a ninth grader who, like, is, you know, seven years younger than the college players, played seven years less basketball, you have to be a little bit better and more specific with how you communicate things without, like, overdoing it and, like, overwhelming them with information. So it's almost made me a better communicator in that sense when, you know, I have to go from, you know, I can't just be like, okay, you know, I'm with my. My college guys who they get all the stuff that I'm saying, and I can throw all this complex terminology and stuff at them, and they pick it up quickly. It's like, you know, like you said, like, can we make it real simple in terms of, okay, it's this read or that read. Okay, and it's that read, because this. Right. And you might feel like, okay, if I'm with a college player or, like, a, you know, a really high level of RCD player, you don't have to explain that, but you do sometimes when it's with, you know, a younger player.

So, yeah, there's so many times where I'm just like, this should be. There were five, six weeks in, and this is stuff that we got to have, but guys don't get in, and.

That'S not their fault.

And, you know, it's just because, you know, when you're at that level, some kids are committed to it, some aren't. And you have to just, you know, you kind of have to Pick your battles with some things. But like, a lot of times, especially for me right now, my team is, you know, struggled in the fundamental areas of just like, defensively, where you need to be and jumping to the basketball, not getting face cut, you know, being, you know, in the help side and, you know, being always. Because we hedging over on a lot of our screens that we kind of do what varsity does and, you know, having guys being in the right position before a ball screen happens, like, you got to stick to your man. You got to be ready to pop out, stop the ball. We got to communicate, like, am I getting through? And like, every time, I always start practicing, like, guys, this the one thing that we can do, we can always do when we come to practice is control what we can control. Like, communication is huge. Like, I'm going to talk to you and I'm going to give you feedback on things because that's my job and that's what I can control. Control. I could talk and use my voice. You guys got to do the same by communicating when you're passing and saying names and drills or, you know, I got your. I got your help, or I'm, you know, screen left, screen right, things like that. So we still struggle with it. You know, it's the process, if that kind of sense. But yeah, definitely making it simpler and just, you know, focusing on those little basics is really important at that level.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jv. It's so interesting because of that. Like, it's for. For me, like, it's all about just having guys build good habits so that eventually, like, you can contribute at that varsity level. So, you know, if we're running the same stuff as them, like, for us, we run a ton of pin downs. Like, that's like the biggest part of our offense. So whether it's pass and then, you know, set a pin down, or it could be high post entry and then like a pinch post look with a pin down. Like, just getting guys used to, like, okay, if I'm coming off of a pin down and my defender's trailing me, what's my read right here? And then if I'm the screener and I said that pin out and he tight curls it, I'm popping the ball. And do we get good at just, like, making those simple reads so that by the time you're up at the varsity level, like, we don't have to worry about that? Like, okay, you have the basic, like, the. The majority of our offense, you understand that, you know, when we get to it, when we get to those different reads. And like, I know for a lot of guys, like, it's very tough because, you know, jv, like I said, JV is a weird level because you're usually going to be practicing against varsity players. Like, a lot of times you're the one who's running scout team and like, you got to go into practice and like, play against players who are better than you. And like, it's, it's tough, but it just requires you to build those good habits and kind of, you know, pay your dues because everyone had to do it, you know, and then eventually it's, it's your turn. But, you know, that's one thing that, like, I get DMs all the time from players just like, who are, who are like JV players. And like, they want to be varsity players or whatever. And like, for whatever reason, it's just not the case right now. And like, my biggest thing is like, just focus on like being in learning mode. Like, learn as much as you can right now and like, get as good as you can at the, at the basics, at the foundations and like, the things that, you know, you need to understand to be at the varsity level. Like, you should be getting better at those every single day if you want to get to that next point. Even if you're not there right now or there's guys ahead of you. Like, you have to understand, like, you can't just have that short term view of like, oh, I'm, I'm a JV player right now, so I'm just worried about this. Well, if your goal is to be okay, I want to be a varsity player, well, what, what abilities, what understanding do you have to have to get to that point? I think that's big to understand. And like, it's, it's, I guess for me as a coach, it's like you have to keep guys focused on that. Like, there's so many frustrating days you're going to have, but it's like, can you get past that and just worry about, like you said, what do you control? Like, I walk into practice every day and I can control making the right read, coming off of a pin down. I can do that. You know, I can control being in help when I'm supposed to be. I can do those sort of things. And if you do that, like, you're gonna get to, you're gonna get to where you need to get to, you know?

Yeah. Yeah. I always tell kids, like, we have, like, for us we have some kids that are like, on that Border of, like, could be playing varsity, could be playing JV or, you know, if they were out there, they wouldn't get the minutes that they need. And so I'm like, this is your. Your time for development. And, you know, and I. And I'm like, you. You get to play a different role maybe here and get to work on something that you're struggling on, and we can, you know, work through that. Like, you're going to get more reps in these. In these situations. And I always tell guys, too, that I'm like, I'm not in this for the wins and losses, like you said. It's more for getting you prepared for that level, that level that you need to be when it counts and when it matters, you know, with the varsity. So, yeah, it's. It's a fun experience. I. I really enjoy it because there's. They're like, you know, you can. You can mold them into these. These players and get them prepared for what to expect. And you kind of know, because a lot of times they're practicing against those varsity guys and they struggle a little bit. They know that the speed is faster, that all those guys talk, you know, most of the time, and they do the little things.

Right.

All the time. And, you know, when you're at that younger level, a lot of times guys forget things. You know, they. You know, it's just. It's just like little things like that that can. Can. That's why they're there. You know what I mean? So. Yeah, but it's been a. It's been fun, definitely. You know, just kind of working with these guys, and I've done it for the last couple years.

Yeah, yeah. No, so kind of the last thing that I wanted to talk about. And this is I sent you this, but this. We can kind of take this wherever. Wherever, you know, you kind of want to. To go with it. This can be, you know, for players or trainers or both or whatever, but basically just like a couple lessons that you've learned as a trainer or anything that you like, anything that you feel is important to bring up. And again, like I said, that could be for trainers or if you have anything for players as well, like the. You can kind of take that where you want to take, but really just kind of lessons in general, if you have anything like that.

I think lessons, you know, first off would be, like, for kids that are trying to get into college basketball. You know, just the lessons I've learned along the way is, you know, you need to be communicating with your coaches, especially if you're getting recruited by some of them. I've seen a lot of kids go to programs that, you know, maybe were promised things and it didn't turn out the way it was supposed to, and then, you know, they end up quitting or it didn't work out and they didn't have this, you know, experience that they were supposed to have. And I think so. So if you're at that point, one of the things that I would say is make sure you're doing your research on the team, the positions that you're going to be going in and playing, the style of play that the school runs. Do you fit those roles? Where could you see yourself? And ask the coach, honestly, too, about that kind of stuff too, as well. Like, hey, where do you see me fitting in? There were some schools that told me you're going to be playing JD right away for at, you know, at a Division 3 school, and that's kind of where you're going to be. And, you know, that may help me make my decision. I went somewhere where they told me I was going to play and that where I was going to fit. And I know that there's a lot of kids out there that just don't ask those questions. They're just kind of fed lies sometimes, like, hey, yeah, we want you. You're a great player. Like you said, though, everybody's a good player when you get to that level. And so they end up going these places and it doesn't turn out how they want. So do your research. That's for sure. Number one, that I would say. Anything else I would say would be lessons that I've learned. Probably just like, my communication skills have definitely changed over time. You know, I was. When I first started, it was like, I was still in player mode, and I didn't see, like, you know, when you, like, first, like, you, like, say, like, people are going to want to go and train somebody else because they played in the NBA or whatever, because they know how to do all these things. Well, if they can't teach it and they can't, you know, do this stuff correctly, they're not gonna transfer this. This knowledge to these players. And I think so. I had to really work on, like, slowing down when I was doing my workouts and making sure I was, you know, handling things and not just going through, like, oh, we're gonna work on this, and then, boom, we're going to the next thing. Like, I wanted to make sure guys got the stuff down and it's okay if we spent One or two time on one or two things in a whole session and just put time in that. And I'd rather do that than try to hit five different things. So that was something that I learned is just, like, slow it down and spend more time on things and just, you know, making sure I'm asking questions with these guys and they're asking me questions so that we can be on the same page. And then we can. When they leave there, they should feel better, at least gotten better in that certain area, Even if it's just 1%.

Better in player mode. I think is. That's such a great way of putting it is like, especially when. Because I see it all the time with, like, people in my area, like, where they'll. Like whether it's usually people who, like, are just kind of starting as trainers, especially, like, it really is, like, it's almost like you're watching a player train, a planner, a player. Like, there's not much, like, learning taking place, and there's not much, like, effective communication either. I think communication is, like, one. It's probably, like, as important as anything else that you can. Any other skill you can have as a trainer or a coach is just understanding how to commit. Like I said before, like, being able to, like, express these ideas that you have, but in a way that's, like, players can be receptive to. And a lot of times, like, it first starts with understanding who that player is and where they're at and, like, how you actually have to communicate to them. Like, what do they respond well to? And I read a book called Conscious Coaching. It was by Brett Bartholomew, and it goes through, like, all these different, like, personality types that you deal with as a coach. And, like, you have, you know, the loudmouth, for example, is one you have. The leader. You have, like, all these different ones. They have, like, the hypochondriac who's, like, always overthinking. Like, there's, like, 20 different types of personalities you might deal with, and, like, they're all a little bit different in, like, how you can effectively communicate with them. And so that, like, kind of opens my. My eyes to, like, wow, like, I. You can't go out and just, like, communicate with everybody the same or have, like, a blanket way that you do things, because everybody's different. So if you communicate the same way with five different players, you might have one or two of them who respond extremely well to it and, you know, succeed and make all this progress. But then you might have one player who's, you know, okay with It. But doesn't make as much progress as they could. And you might have two players who, like, don't respond well at all to it and don't make any sort of progress with it. So I think part of being a good trainer or a coach is you have to know how. How can I. How can I get this kid to be receptive to the message that I'm trying to convey? And that to me is, like, that's been where I've tried. I've been really trying to get better. And, like, it's just such a. Such a thing. You have to really maneuver as a coach, for sure. So that. That, to me, that communication topic is. It's just massive. It's massive.

It is, yeah. I mean, I got to experience it, too. So, like, when I was on the coaching staff at my alma mater, my job was to, like, watch players in practice. I was kind of one of these assistant coaches. I wasn't the head assistant coach, and I was one of these assistant coaches. And they're like, I want you to watch the guys and how they react to things in practice and what's their body language like? And when they come out of the game, you need to talk to them. And each guy's a little bit different. Some of them you got to get on. And some of the guys, like, we had a couple guys that were really good players, and if you got on them, they'd shut down and it affected their game. And I was the type of guy that you could scream at and yell at, and I would take that criticism and I would use it as fuel and put it towards something positive. But some people will just get down on themselves. I see it all the time, even in high school basketball, because confidence is a.

Is.

Can be a killer for some of these kids, and. And depending on what you say, can really, you know, affect them. So, you know, there's. You kind of. Yeah, you have to know these players. And so, like, a lot of the guys that I train, I've been training, and I try to ask them questions outside of basketball, like, yo, what do you do? What's. You know, what's. What's your life like right now? What do you.

I mean, what.

Like, what are you doing in school? If they're college guys, what are you studying? And then, like, you know, you get to know them and you're talking about video games or whatever, and. And sometimes I go out to eat with guys. We get lunch and we talk before we go and work out or after workouts and, you know, you just start developing these relationships and then you kind of know, like, okay, this guy is. Can be kind of joking around sometimes, and you have to get on him a little bit to take it a little more serious. Some of these guys are just hard workers and you just need to continue to just feed them and just kind of keep going with them. Like, and some of them are really hard on themselves and you don't have to say much either. Like, you just need to be, like, positive and just kind of keep, you know, keeping them on the right path and not letting them, you know, get their head down. Because it's just. Yeah, it's like a mental battle with some of these guys that when you're training them and, you know, I'm always trying to get these, especially college guys, because when you get to college, you probably know too, and your brother probably knows. But the. What coaches can say is completely different than what high school coaches can say. I mean, they can mother f you and throw you out the building and say whatever they want because mom and dad aren't there for you. And so you have to be mentally strong for that. And, you know, obviously some of them don't do it correctly and they don't communicate correctly. Some of them are really good at it. And so it's just like getting them prepared for that, too. So if I see a guy that's struggling, you know, in that area, I might have to be like, look, this is something that you're going to have to overcome because what's going to happen when you, you're on the second squad and you're practicing against varsity and you don't get as much time and you think you're better than this, how are you going to adapt to this? And coach is yelling at you, or maybe he's not saying anything to you, you know, and, and what are you going to do to get yourself back to where you want to get to? So, yeah, it's definitely something that I'm trying to get better at as well and just trying to help guys again, set them up for more success, especially when they will get to that next level.

Yeah. And I think as much as that is important for, like, trainers, coaches, I think, and I talked about this a couple of weeks ago, but it's important for players to have an idea of that as well when it comes to communicating with their teammates. So I think we can talk about this from a coach perspective, but from a. A player perspective, it's equally important because the way that you communicate with your teammates can either make them better or make them worse. So, you know, you can literally, like, and I, I say this to my guys, like, listen, when you're on defense and you're just talking, like, you're constantly talking, you're telling you're helping your teammates. You're saying, hey, I'm in. Help. Hey, shots going up, or hey, I got your help. Like, whatever you're saying, like, you are making the other four players better. Like, you're raising their level just by the way that you talk to them. And you can be the worst defender on the floor, but you, you're making the four other players better because of your talking. And it's the same thing when it comes to just how you communicate in general. Whether it be like, you know, when your teammate misses a shot, like, do you, do you pick them up? Do you see them like starting to get down on themselves? You immediately squash that and then get them up. You know, the video that I, that I post on Instagram a couple of weeks ago was of Jalen Hands back in, back in college. I forget who the, who his big was, but he plays in the NBA now. I'd blame on his name, but like he, he had that turnover against Oregon in overtime and he had his head, his head down after. And Jalen goes and just picks his head up at that point and like that, like, that's what I mean by that. It's like, how quickly can you pick up your teammates when they need it? Because at that point, or I mean, UCLA was down and they ended up winning that game. And I think that's like, that to me is a part of it when you have a guy on your team who inspires confidence and belief in everybody around them, like, you just make everybody better. And I think, you know, and you can speak to this too, as, you know, somebody who was on, on staff at a college, like, when you see a kid like that, like, that's something that is really hard to pass up. If you're out watching a high school kid and you see like, hey, this kid, like controls everything on the floor. When he's got teammates who are like, are upset, like, he goes and he fixes the situation and you know, he's making sure that guys are good. And so we know if we bring him into our program, like, he's going to make everybody, whether or not he's the best player on the team, he's going to make everybody else on the team better because of how he goes about doing things.

Right? Yeah, you're, you're right. On that. I mean, you know, there's so many things that people do well when they get into that college level. What are these other things that players can be doing? And it's 100% like, you know, your leadership roles and what, your what, how you go about it. Some guys are, they lead by action and they just do things on the court that are really important. And, and I, and I think, you know, the, the whole, like how you talk to guys too. Like you said, like the tone. I've talked to that about guys with them before. They're always like, come on, take care of the ball. And you know, these kind of things and games. And I'm like, you guys gotta, you gotta word things differently to guys. Some things when they come off the bench, they don't want to hear that. You know, you'd be like, hey, you're good. Next time just look for me on the corner or something like that. Or, you know, just pivot and rotate and then throw that pass opposite. And the guys that can do that. Yeah, again, it just keeps teams together. It's like glue. And it really does make a difference for sure. And I think that that's what coaches also try to check out, at least at that college level is when they talk to guys, they can kind of figure out what type of player they are just by talking to them a little bit. And, you know, just, you know, even going to games, are they communicating with their players? Are they loud and vocal? Are they doing all these other little things like, you know, helping a guy up right away? That was something in college they were always looking at like, dude takes a charge. Well, who's the first one to go and help him up? You know what I mean? Or who's the first one to go and die for that loose ball, you know, and go and get it or whatever it is, like these little extra effort plays or little things that are unnoticed. But I look at that stuff because that was, that was my job in practice to see that kind of thing, so. And I always tell those guys that too. Like, I see all this other little things like your body language and how you're talking to each other and, and, and that makes a difference. And that's going to help, you know, good teams go to great teams.

Yeah, yeah. Well, well, I really appreciate you being on the, on the podcast, man. Where can people reach you on social media and really just let people know, like, what you got going on?

Yeah, you guys can follow me on Will over skill training on at Instagram. You know, I'll be posting on there probably once or twice a week. Whether it's, you know, your vertical stuff that you need help with, whether it's your bounce or just, you know, daily drills or things that can help you guys keep improving in season, off season, things like that as well. And I really appreciate you having me on here too, Ethan. It's been a pleasure. And I really think that what you're doing is huge for the game and huge for coaches and trainers and players in general. So just. Just an honor to be on here.

Definitely, man, I appreciate that. And all your links for social media will be in the description of that as well. So everybody's watching right now. Make sure you go check out his stuff. That's all going to be, like I said, linked below. If you guys are watching right now, I appreciate you. Apple Podcasts, Spotify, everybody's watching YouTube right now. Drop a like subscribe if you're new, leave a comment, Let me know something that you got from this episode, something that you want to see moving forward, whatever, just leave a comment, let me know. I'll talk to you guys soon.

Peace.