#104 Divorce Lawyer: Why 53% of Marriages Fail | James Sexton

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I could make a pretty easy legal argument with the divorce rate about 53% that it is definitely negligent, possibly reckless to get married. How many people stay together miserable? 73% of them. Like, that's insane. If I said there's a 73% chance we walk out of here today, you're getting hit in the head with a bullet like you would never willy nilly, go for it.

James Sexton is one of the best divorce attorneys in the world. He has the keys to why people stay stay married, why people stay happy, and what will a hundred percent lead to you getting divorced Whether you want it or not, this episode is going to shock you and it is going to teach you the things that they should have taught us before we said I do. You said affairs almost never start with sex. What do they actually start with?

You know, I think they start the way relationships start, which is you're interested and you're interested. I've represented the cheated on and I've represented the cheater. The two biggest problems are we don't know what we want and we don't know how to express it to another person. But when's the last time that you said to your partner, what are some things I do that make you feel loved? There's something to be said for kind words and because I don't know which comes first, but I'll tell you right now, you do one, you'll probably get the other more often.

What are the first signs that a marriage is going sideways and it's gonna end in your office?

What I would say are the red flags that a relationship is not likely to continue. Success? Possibly.

I don't know if these numbers are right, but if they are, this is insane. It says you've handled 2,000 plus divorces. Is that right?

Yeah, easily. It's 25 years, almost 26 now. Wow.

You get hundreds of millions of views on divorce. Your work also, interestingly to me, goes way beyond divorce. It's about like almost the wakeup calls people need to hear before they get divorced. So given all you've Seen and all this breakup. Is marriage still a good idea?

I think so. You know, I tell people marriage is like the lottery. You're probably not gonna win, but if you win, what you win is so good that, like, why not buy a ticket? Like, I think, you know, and the difference is that, you know, lottery, like, you can't really do much to increase your chances of winning the lottery. It's a game of chance. But marriage, there's a lot you could do to make it work. And when you meet the overwhelming majority of people are bad at marriage. Like marriage, you could make an argument, and this is why lawyers don't get invited to parties very often, you could make an argument that marriage is negligent. Negligence is defined as any activity where you fail to perceive a substantial and unjustifiable risk of serious harm. Okay, that's the dictionary definition of negligence. Recklessness is a conscious disregard for a substantial unjustifiable risk of harm. So I could make a pretty easy legal argument with the divorce rate about 53%, that it is definitely negligent, possibly reckless to get married. And keep in mind that's 53% end in divorce. How many people stay together miserable for the kids, for religious reasons, they don't wanna give away half their shit, whatever it might be another 10%. I'm being nice. Maybe 20. Now you got a. Technology fails, like, 73% of the. Like, that's insane. Like, that's insane. If I said there's a 73% chance we walk out of here today, you're gonna get hit in the head with a bowling ball, you would stay in, or you'd wear a helmet at a minimum. Right. Like, you would never just, yeah, willy nilly, go for it. But yet we're actually not only super into marriage, still, as a culture, there's a presumption you should do it.

Yeah.

Like if someone, one of your friends came to you and said, I'm getting married, and you said, really? Why? Like, that would be the most indelicate, unpleasant question. Right. But realistically, it's a fairly, like, we're really happy. We want to get the government involved. Like, that's a very odd thing for a person to say. But you're not allowed to even question it because sort of the wedding industrial complex and, you know, there's just this theory, like, it's just a tradition now. And I've said before that, you know, to some degree, tradition is the wisdom of the people who were here before us. And to some degree, tradition is peer pressure exerted by dead people. And I think that when you say, well, why are you getting married? Well, because you're supposed to. Well, why? Well, my parents were married. My grandparents were married. Okay, but your grandmother didn't have the sum total of all human wisdom in a digital device in her hand. The world she lived in was very different. So why would a technology that worked for her necessarily make sense for you? So, you know, marriage is just shockingly challenging. At a minimum, I still think it's a good idea. Because the other statistic I find equally, if not more interesting is that 86% of people remarry within five years of their divorce.

Yeah, I did.

Yeah. Yeah. And I've watched so many people do it and do it quite successfully sometimes, because I think that they bring. I think second marriage energy is a different thing. I think it's like, okay, I figured out what I don't want, and I've seen and made some mistakes, and now I know what not to do, hopefully. And failure is a phenomenal teacher in that regard. And I think that people who have been through it, they kind of go, okay, I'm not quite as afraid anymore. Cause I've had this happen. It's like when you've had a failed business, it's unfortunate, but it's also. There's a freedom of like, okay, I failed, and I'm still alive.

Didn't die.

Like, I'm still here. I didn't die. So you know what? Let me ante up again. Let's do this, and let me learn from. Let me take the lessons and do something with it. So I think that marriage is still something that's incredibly important to us as a species. And I think there has to be some greater reason for that, you know?

Yeah. What about. Can you tell after all of these divorces and being around all of these people who are unhappily married, if you look at a couple, can you tell if they are moving towards divorce or not? And if so, how? Why? What are the signs?

You know, I've been told I have good. We don't know what to call it yet. You know, like, I have good gaydar because I live in Chelsea, and I can kind of be like, maybe he is. But I don't know what the divorce equivalent of gaydar would be where I can just sort of, like, smell the. I used to be very good at it. On. Watching the Real Housewives shows on Bravo. I would be like, oh, they're done. Oh, yeah, they're on their way out. And some of their divorces I've actually done. I've represented a couple of them. That's public knowledge. But, yeah, I mean, I think that I can. When I spend time with a couple, I definitely have a radar for the habits, the ways they interact with each other, and a sensitivity to it. I think we actually all do, probably. But I think that my sensitivity to it is much higher because I spend so much time with people who are in that level of conflict to the point where it's so irretractable that now they're getting divorced. Like, a couples counselor probably would spend time with people that are in marital challenge but might find their way to navigate out of it. I am, you know, I am the look, it's dead and I'm here to bury it person.

And what do they typically look like? Like, what are the first signs that a marriage is going sideways and it's gonna end in your office?

Yeah. You know, my mom used to say to me that it's hard to spot intelligence, but you can spot stupid a mile away. And so maybe intelligence is like an absence of stupid. Right. So I think a lot of what I would say are the red flags that a relationship is not likely to continue successfully are an absence of things rather than a presence. Right. So, like, one of the things that's present in almost all the happy couples I know is this sense of, like, cheering for each other, you know, this sense of, like, you're interested, you're interesting, and I'm cheering for you when you have that. It's a superpower of sorts, and the absence of it or the opposite of it. We've all been to the dinner party where, like, whatever he says, she's rolling her eyes at, and whatever she says, he's, like, not even really listening, and he's kind of like, wait, what? Like, yeah, okay, whatever, you know? And it's just a vibe. It's a feeling. It's that sense of, like, yeah, well, you know, the zeitgeist has told people it's cool. Like, I don't know what that's about, but, like, you know, this is something that, as a man and a woman, we probably experience a little differently. But, like, you go out with a group of men, and if a guy is like, dude, my wife's, like, the coolest man. Like, it's sort of like, what is with this guy? Whereas if the guy is like, my wife's, like, the most loathsome harpy ever to castrate a man, you know, they were like, yeah, I know, man. That's how they are. And women, it's the same thing. Like, if you, you know, say, like, oh, my husband's just so great, you know, it's kind of. Maybe it's a little more acceptable, but if you do the, like, you know, men, they're just so stupid. It's like, hey, men, sister. You know, and that's. We've really been taught to have this battle and see it that way. And look, for whatever reason, the battle of the sexes and the sort of girls versus boys thing I get, there's a bonding element to that or whatever. But if you're saying, there are 8 billion people in the world and you're the one, I want you. I want you to hold my hand, and let's figure this thing out. Let's walk together, let's see each other's blind spots. Let's try to just cheer for each other, help each other. Like, to me, the goal of marriage should be that at the end of your life, you could say, this person helped me be the most authentic version of myself, and I helped them do the same thing. Like, what could be more worthy of a pursuit than that? Like, what could be a greater asset to have than that? But for most people, I don't know that that's the goal. There's this sense of. Of, like, you know, yeah, like, this is my person. Like, I picked them. I don't know if I'd pick them again if I had it to do over again. Like, that's when you feel that around people, that rolling of the eyes. But one of the things I think is really fun to do is when you're out, you know, with a group of couples or whatever, and someone's got that vibe of, like, oh, you could tell they had in a fight in the car on the way there, or they have that sort of, like, rolling their eyes at each other if you go, so, how'd you guys meet? Tell me about how you met. There's a softening that happens that is fascinating to me because people kind of go back in their head to, like, when they were trying to close the deal, you know, and when it still was something they were aspiring to was to be this person's person. And they go back there in their mind for a minute, and there's something that shifts. So for me, the long answer to that question is when I feel like people have lost that plot completely. They've stopped trying to close. They've lost sight of the fact that this is their person. And constructive criticism is important in any relationship. But it's still criticism and it never feels good to be criticized. And you know, obviously, as someone who has a lot of management experience that, you know, there are ways to modify the behaviors of people around you that don't require direct criticism, even constructive criticism, like praising the behavior that you're trying to facilitate is the way to do it. And in marriage that's incredibly easy. It's incredibly easy. Cause you have all these levers. You have affection, sex, romance, you know, you have all of these things that you can weaponize in a good way to modify the behavior of this person and help improve the dynamic without them feeling criticized. So to me, when I see criticism, that to me is the biggest red flag.

That's so good. My husband actually was the one who taught me, he taught me that that wasn't cool to even make jokes about your partner in front of other people. And he was like, it's just a disrespectful thing. We don't do that in front of other people. And I had really. You know, my parents have been married forever. They're very happily married still. They're incredible partners. But that was okay in their marriage, you know, they could have a little. And. But when I saw it, I thought, yeah, actually it is kind of disrespectful. And you know, Chris and I, it's us against the world. And don't get me wrong, we fight. But I love how you say healthy couples fight. They just fight fairly.

Yeah. And so we fight. Yeah. No low blows. It's no. Like the weaponization of intimacy to me is the scariest thing in the world. Because it's so brave to love someone. Like, it's so brave to go, I'm gonna show you all of these soft spots. Like you marry a Navy seal, he's got soft spots, I guarantee it. And maybe he doesn't show em to anybody, but he's gotta be able to show em to you. And when someone makes you the keeper of that, if you ever use that to like weaponize, like we all, anyone who's ever been in a relationship for more than a month, you have a sentence, like, you keep it in the chamber, hopefully forever, but you have a sentence, you know, you could say to your partner that would literally reduce them to tears. Like we all do. We all do. Like, you have it with your friends, you have it. Anyone you know really well, you're like, I know what would crush them. And as a divorce lawyer, like, I see what happens when people unleash that kraken, you know, and you can't take it back. You can't take it back. And those little indignities, those little jabs, those little, like, people. People's relationships fall apart the way people go bankrupt very slowly and then all at once.

Yeah.

And that's. And how companies fail very slowly and then all at once. And relationships the same thing. It's like very slowly and then you just go right off the cliff.

You know, I loved how you talked about why people shouldn't talk badly about their spouses. And you also had this story about a dog that my husband and I were watching last night and we were sort of laughing about it and saying, like, I had never. I think one of the interesting things about you and why I wanted you to come talk to our people is I've been through a divorce and it was. It was terrible. And it wasn't his fault entirely, and it wasn't my fault entirely. We were two super flawed people that just couldn't figure it out. And if I could, I don't have very many regrets in life, but that one's damn near close. Just like, getting there, having that presupposition that we have to get married and I just should marry a person because there are these boxes that it fit into, and I take that on my shoulders. I think that was my fault for even saying yes fully. And I was the one that wanted to leave. And so I'm always like, man, if I could go to young Cody and say a few things differently, it would be a lot of the stuff that you talk about. And it's weird that I would say I would talk to young Cody about a divorce attorney. You know, that's not like my immediate thought. It's like maybe a fucking counselor, a priest, I don't know. But you have this story about how a dog has a lot in common with how a good relationship is today and how we're kind of fucked up in the way we think about relationships. Will you share it?

Yeah. I mean, I'm a dog person, so. So I've always had dogs. Me too. And I think they teach us a lot about love. Because if I've learned anything from my dogs, it's how absolutely insane it is to love anything. And I think part of it really is the acknowledgement, because they have this incredibly short lifespan. We know that a dog is not gifted to us permanently. It's loaned. Like we're going to have it for this little period of time. And I think there's something about when someone says it's going to be you and me forever, that there's a very human part to go. Whew, great. All right, got that done. Now I can focus on some other things, because there's no shortage of things to focus on. But really, love is loaned. Your husband's love is loaned to you, and your love is loaned to him. It's not permanently gifted. And your marriage will end. Every marriage ends. It ends in death or divorce. It's weird because it's one of those things you go, I really hope yours ends in death. Like, what a weird thing to say out loud. But the truth is, like, your marriage will end and you want it to end in death. You want it to end way down the road in death. But more likely than not, marriages end in divorce. But there is something about the love we have for a dog, the love we have for our pets, that I think knows that this is not gonna be here forever and that we should be really enjoying it and really focusing on it and really being selfless in our love of it. And also, too, there's something about the way, I mean, dogs just are always cheering for us, you know, like there's an old joke, like, if you wanna know who loves you more, lock your spouse and your dog in the trunk of the car, open it up a half hour later and see which one's happy to see you.

My father in law told me that joke right before we got married.

Yeah, it's fair, It's a fair joke, you know, But I really do think that we, we learn a lot about ourselves and about love and about loss by having pets. I think that for me, I've learned a lot about love from having a dog and also from my heart's infinite capacity for love. Because every time I go, yeah, I'm never doing that again. I could never love any dog the way I love Buster. I can never love any dog the way I love Huckleberry. There's no way I could love. And then somehow I do. And it doesn't take anything away from how much I loved them to have this new additional love in my life. But it reminds me that we have this infinite capacity for love and that it's incredibly brave. It's incredibly brave to love something. It's incredibly brave because to love anything is to accept the fact that you will inevitably lose it. And so acknowledging that I'm gonna hold onto this thing that I can never hold onto forever, and I'm gonna open myself up to it and I'm gonna let it become part of me, I think is the Bravest thing a person can do. And I think if you're not scared, it's not brave. I'm sure your husband and everyone he's ever served with, I'm sure they've all been scared and that's what makes them brave, is that they're scared and they do the thing that needs to be done anyway. And I think love should be approached that, that way.

Why do you think that you're not more jaded having seen all these divorces? I mean, I've met a lot of attorneys and we talked about this a little bit beforehand. But, you know, you seem to be a tough guy. Brazilian, jiu jitsu, tattoos, divorce attorney, some of the biggest divorces in the world you've done. But you also seem really kind and very open hearted. How did you keep that?

I blame my mom. She was, you know, I was the perfect amalgam of my two parents. My father was an Annapolis Vietnam veteran, like really hard, really. My mom was like left wing. So far left, it was like the leftist you could ever be and progressive, liberal and a total hippie. So I guess I had to become a lawyer because I had to see both sides of every argument always. They never voted for the same person, but they really loved each other. They were married over 50 years till my mom passed away. My mom passed away ten years ago today.

I'm so sorry.

And no, she lived an amazing life. She was an amazing person. And I think a lot of it came from her. You know, I. There's a line from a Joseph Brodsky poem. It's one of my favorite poems. It's called a song. He wrote it when his wife died. And the refrain of the poem is, I wish you were here, dear. I wish you were here. And one of the lines is, I wish you were here, dear. I wish you were here. I wish I knew. No astronomy when the stars appear. And there's something to me about when you watch how fragile love is and you watch so many people lose it and you feel. And you sit across the table from people who are in so much pain because they had it and they had this path and this plan and they were certain and then it's gone. Sometimes they screwed it up. Sometimes it's through no fault of their own. Their spouse just came home and said, and there's something about when you were around that all the time that you realize how beautiful and fragile love is because we. It is the greatest. I mean, anyone. Like people have said to me, like, well, how do you believe in love still And I'm like, that's like saying, like, do you believe in gravity? Like, gravity is there whether I believe in it or not. Like, love is. Of course I believe in love. Love's everywhere. Love's the only thing. Like all this other stuff we're doing. Why are we doing it? We're doing it because we want love. We want to feel worthy of love. We want to care for the people we love. We want to have some level of safety, security, and control for the people we love or for ourselves so we can continue to enjoy time with the people we love. It all comes back to love. Like, all of it comes back to love. So watching the fragility of love, watching the quote, unquote, failure of love has not made me less of a romantic. It's not made me less. It makes me more humbled by this vital, beautiful, fragile thing. And even though I know the astronomy, I still think the stars are beautiful. I don't think that knowing that love can go horribly wrong has ever for a moment, shaken my faith in how important it is and how beautiful it is. Because even as a divorced person, myself, even as someone who has had love and seen that love end in the way you didn't expect it to end. Like, I am a better person for every one of those loves. And even when you say, like, oh, you know, I look back at young Cody and I kind of want to say to her, like, oh, maybe this is the wrong place. You would never be who you are if you hadn't that experience. And you would not have the marriage you have now if you hadn't had that experience. And even if the lesson of that experience was to show you, okay, that isn't what I need. So I need to find something different than that in some ways. And that's where I think there's so much overlap in my relationship on perspective. And a lot of the things you do in terms of business and entrepreneurship is. It's a lot about, can people take the same ingredients and make a different meal with it? And we all know the answer is yes. Like, we all know, like, you can take the same people in a business and restructure it and change the way they interact with each other as manager and employee. And you can make an entirely new business with the exact same ingredients. You could give Thomas Keller or any amazing Michelin star chef the same ingredients as me, and they're going to make something incredible out of it because they have this technique and ability. So I think it's the same thing. Like, I think that the ingredients of who we are, when paired with other different ingredients, we can make something radically different. Or even in a relationship that's struggling, we can take those same ingredients and figure out ways to make something different with it.

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They.

That's why I like godaddy Arrow. You plug in what you're building and it instantly spins up a professional website logo, email, even social posts. In other words, it gives you instant credibility. And credibility is currency. I've turned invisible businesses into deal ready, customer ready plays just by tightening their online presence. That's leverage. That's how you win. So if you want to look like you belong in the owner's seat from day one, go to GoDaddy.com Cody Sanchez and launch with GoDaddy Arrow today. Okay, I want to talk about. There are a couple, couple of different things you said. Like, one of the lines that I love is you said people say they fell out of love. No, they stopped doing the things that kept love alive.

Yeah.

Can you expand on that?

I think the biggest problem in relationships is that we just stop paying attention. Like, we just stop paying attention. And there's all these, there's all these little tiny things when you first fall in love with someone that they do that you absolutely love and that make you feel loved and that you do for them and that probably make them feel loved. But, like, when's the last time? I'm not going to put you on the spot, but when's the last time that you said to your partner or your spouse, hey, what are some things I do that make you feel loved? Or when's the last time you said, hey, you know, you know when you get that, when you see that I'm out of that sparkling water that I like and you just like buy a case of it when you're out at the store, that makes me feel so seen and so loved. Like, we kind of don't do that. Like, we just don't do it. It's sort of like, oh, yeah, like, you know, this person's with me now. Like, they're legally obliged to be here. Like, I don't have to do all that anymore. And it's absolutely true. Like, you don't. But there's so many things when you first meet someone and you're kind of trying to close the deal. You know, it's like the job interview. At the interview and the first week of work, like, everything is new and fascinating and wonderful. And it's like, oh, my God, they did this. And I'm just so glad to have the job. Like, this is so great. Like, I'm so tired of sending resumes. Like, I got the job. And, like, four months in, you're like, ugh. You know, I mean, it's the same job, but you're. Your perception of how special it is and how lucky you are to have it has now been completely jaded by the fact that you have it. And so I think in relationships, we stop paying attention. And when we stop paying attention, no single raindrop is responsible for the flood, but the flood is just a bunch of little raindrops. And so people always. When they're talking about marriage is ending, they're like. And I get this a lot because not everybody interviews at the level of nuance you do. They'll say, like, what are four things that people can do to save their marriage? And you're like, what are the main three reasons why marriages end? You know, And I'm always tempted to say, like, a snarky answer when they're like, what's the number one reason people get divorced? I'm like, well, because they don't want to be married anymore.

You know?

Like, you know that. But really, what they want me to say is infidelity, you know, or financial impropriety or. But those are symptoms. Like infidelity is a symptom of the problem. The problem is almost always the same. Disconnection, Disconnection from self, and then disconnection from the other person. Because the two biggest problems are we don't know what we want, and we don't know how to express it to another person. And the most dangerous lies are the ones we tell ourselves. I mean, I think in both of our lines of work, we know that. That, like, the most dangerous lies are the things you tell yourself. Oh, no. Well, no, no, no. We're gonna. Next month, next quarter, we're gonna turn this thing around. Like, the lies you tell yourself are so dangerous in marriage because you can't possibly identify what it is you need, what your partner needs, how you're meeting it, how your needs are not getting met if you. If you're not having an honest conversation with yourself, and then ideally with your partner in some fashion.

Yeah. You know, it's fascinating because one of the things Chris is really good at Is he will tell, you know, me frequently, like, we have to have the difficult conversations that most people want to push aside, because if we don't, they're a little bit like a festering wound, right? You just let it, like, rot away at the edges. Rot away at the edges. And so, sure, it is about, I don't know, trash left on the countertop, but it's not really about that. There's, like, something deeper.

But see, trash left on the countertop is a great example. Cause trash left, like, it's not about the pasta. Like, trash left on the countertop is not about trash on the countertop. It's about, why are you not respecting our space? It's about, why do you not know that that kind of bothers me? And if you do know it and you do it anyway, why is my feeling not important to you? So that's kind of everything, you know? Like, how you do anything is how you do everything. And the passion with which you do it. Because if you think about it, that actually can be equally leveraged as a sign of love. Cause if he doesn't mind having the thing on the counter and he knows you do and he moves it off the counter, then he's saying, I love you. Like, that's what that is. Like, he's saying, best example I have is throw pillows. I would never have a throw pillow in my whole life.

What is it with us?

What man would be like, throw pillows? Like, we just don't. But women love them. And so I really could tell I was in love when I was like, oh, yeah, I should straighten the throw pillows up, you know? Cause it was like, it's in no way important to me. But I'd love to believe that my partner would see that and go, he doesn't give a shit about throw pillows. Like, he likes me. Because that's what that is like. That's what that is. Like, that's a sign of love. And to me, we never. Like, we rarely say these things out loud. Like, we rarely say to our partner, these dumb little things you do that make me feel seen and loved and cared for. And these dumb little things you do that make me feel not valued and not cared for and kind of dismissed or ignored. But I feel like that's the stuff. And if we could isolate on that stuff and find ways to have discussions about that stuff that aren't going to bring out defensiveness in our partner, or we find ways to, like, engage in what I call loving behavior modification. You know, the best example I give of that is, I dated a. So I. You know, I'm a lawyer by trade, so I have to do, like, I always have to be clean shaven. Like, your husband gets to have the cool beard, you know, or he gets.

For, like 15 years.

So now it's like he's bouncing.

Now he's like, fuck you.

Like Chris, you know, Williamson has the, like, oops, I didn't know I was sexy stubble, you know, which is like, Chris is going to think I'm like, man, crashing now, but, like, yeah, if I was going to, he'd be a good man. But the truth is, like, I have to be clean shaven, and I have one of those, like, thick beards that, like, you know. So on the weekends, I tend not to shave because it's like, I have two days off from shaving. I don't have to go to court. It's good. Just like, you're never going to get me in a suit on the weekend. If someone invites me to wedding on the weekend, I'm like, I'm not wearing a suit. It's not happening. I wear a suit five days a week. So I remember dating a girl and she had really sensitive skin. And so when I would kiss her and I was a little stubbly, like, I'd be on the weekend, she would get, like, a little redness, you know, like, y' all have sensitive skin.

Yeah.

And she would be like, oh, yeah, like, your beard is prickly. And it really brought out something defensive in me, like, and I was very like, like, you know, like, I would, I wouldn't say it, but I find myself thinking, like, you know, you should be happy that I'm kissing you. And, like, now I gotta shave when I'm gonna see you. And Monday through Friday, like, this is just. This is great. Like, I've never. No break from this whatsoever. Needless to say, that relationship didn't work out. Not solely for that reason. Although maybe it was a symptom. The next woman I dated had the exact same issue, but she was a genius. Because I would shave. Usually it was on Monday morning if she spent the weekend or something. Monday morning, she would come in after I'd shaved, and she'd be like, oh, God, you're, like, so sexy when you're clean shaven. And she would press up against my skin and she'd be like, you're like Don Draper in Mad Men. I love it, dude. I wish I would shave, like, three times a day. Like, I, I. And I would, by the way. I was like a little kid. Like, I would shave, and then I would come downstairs, and I'd be like, I just shave. You know? And she would be like, oh, my God, I love it. Yeah. Now she was doing the exact same thing. She was trying to get me to shave for her benefit. But she went about it brilliantly because I really felt like, oh, this is, like, something she likes about me, and this is an opportunity I have to, like, like, become even more attractive to her and to have some praise from her. What was it? It was the exact same thing as behavior modification, but it was approached from this place of, like, positive reinforcement, reframing what it is that you want. And to me, like, that's how in a successful marriage, you shape the behavior of your partner.

God, that's so good. I'm going to take this so literally, because now when my man. When I want him to not have a beard. You can't listen to this podcast.

Yeah. You got to watch, like. You got to watch old episodes of, like, Mad Men and be like, you look so. Remember when you were sh. Oh, God, that was so hot. Most guys will be like, really? Okay. You know, like, if it's gonna. If we're gonna get laid from it, we usually will do it. We'll usually do what needs to be done. Yeah.

You know, you have said a few funny things about what men want.

Yeah.

And I think you had a funny answer that I liked to. What the male version of flowers.

Nudes is. Yeah. Nudes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was very funny, because that was actually off the top of my head. Somebody said, like, what's the. That's the male equivalent of getting flowers. I was like, nudes. Oh, wait, was that too quick of an answer? Let me think about it for a minute. Nudes. Yeah. Well, because it really is, like, we're visual. This is important. But it's that same. Because what are flowers? It really isn't like, hey, something was alive, and now we've killed it, and you can put it in water. That's not in and of itself a particularly romantic gesture, but we've assigned something to it, which is. I was thinking of you. I wanted to give you this gesture of my affection. Like, it's really what it is. Well, for men, that's like, a tremendous gesture of affection because, you know, the old adage of, you know, every. Every guy wants a good girl who's only bad for him, and every woman wants a bad boy who's only good for her.

So true. Every little man.

See, read every romance novel, and it's all that it's always, like, the hard, you know, so. But with her, he's gentle, you know? And, like, come on, you're married to a seal, for God's sake. Like, he can kill people with a popsicle stick. And meanwhile, he's, like, soft and gentle and lovely with you. Like, that's like the whole thing. That's like every female fantasy right there. And, guys, we really want someone who's like, oh, I've never been with a man and yet. And bodice ripping, you know, it's like our thing. So, look, if these are the archetypes of the collective romantic unconscious, okay, Leverage it, use it, use it. You know? Like, I believe in living in reality, and that's reality. So, yeah, I think nudes is the equivalent of flowers. I think I've never, ever heard of a man getting a nude from a woman he has a relationship with and going, that is not appropriate right now. Like, wherever you. I've been in a courtroom and got one and went, like. Because it's true. Like most heterosexual men. I'm really talking out of school here. I'm gonna get kicked out of the, like, bro club. But, like, it is hard not to applaud when a woman takes her shirt off. Like, it's hard not to. Like, it feels like a bit like a kid at Christmas. Even if you've seen these same breasts a million times, you just. You feel like a kid. Like, oh, my God. It's just what I wanted. Those, those perfect. Look at those. I don't know why. They don't really do anything. It's like the flowers. What do the flowers really do? They smell nice for a couple days, then you gotta throw them out. But it's something about it, you know? Like something that intoxication. If you can keep that, I think in relationships, like, that's the good stuff. Like, why would you let it go away? It's so low percentage of a move. Like, to me, big investment with big risk. Okay, I get it. People are risk adverse or small investment with unlikely success. Okay, I get it. Maybe people don't want to, you know, fail, but if you leave your partner a note in the morning. It was so fun hanging out with you on the couch last night. I married the prettiest girl in the world. What does that take? 10 seconds. 10 seconds. What'd it cost? Nothing. But what does it do? It's just saying, I see you. You're important to me. I want you to feel seen. I want you to feel heard. And this downward spiral that everyone who Ends up in my office at some point, starts, and then gracefully finishes in a chair in front of my desk. It starts with, well, why should I do that? He didn't do this. Yeah, like, why should I sleep with him? He's nothing but unfriendly to me. Well, why should I be friendly to her? All she does is dismisses everything I say. You know, like. And that's what I mean when I say, well, like, okay, you're both right. Like, you don't owe each other anything. By the way, you don't even have to be married. So don't. Don't be married. But at some point, you went, Yep, 8 billion choices. That's the one I want. And so why wouldn't you water that plant? Like, why wouldn't you just take that? Because that spiral starts to work in the other direction. Like, even if you kind of lost the plot, like, you can get it back, but it's a little bit of a slow process. And the hard part is just, like, getting back in shape. When you've fallen out of shape, it's like, you don't go back into the gym for four hours and go, okay, this is great. Like, you'll be so sore the next day, you'll never be able to move. And it won't accomplish much. But do 20 minutes a day for a couple of days, and you'll start to get stronger and stronger and stronger. And it's the same thing. Just start those little gestures and see if that reconnection starts to happen and it starts to feed the other person, inspire them into do. Because I'll tell you something, I feel like. And I haven't tested the theory, if you sent more flowers, you'd get more nudes. If you gave more nudes, you might get more flowers. Like, I don't know which came first, the flowers or the nudes, the chicken or the egg. But I'm telling you, like, there's something to be said for this. There's something to be said for kind words and blowjobs. There's something to be said for it because I don't know which comes first. But I'll tell you right now, you do one, you'll probably get the other more often. So I feel like there's value in that. And it's the part we don't say out loud. We say dumb shit like, happy wife, happy life.

It's a terrible line.

It's a terrible line that everybody says at the wedding. Like, the uncle who says it at the wedding, I should pay him A dividend. He's like, he made a lot of money. But it really is. I mean, if anything, it should be happy spouse, happy house. But even that, if your meaning is, yeah, just, like, do what they want you to do. Like, just make them happy, like, whatever it is. No, no. Like, that is not a recipe for success in this coupling. That is supposed to be the paramount connection you have with another.

But, you know what is interesting is you talk a lot about infidelity in affairs. A couple of the ways you talk about them were fascinating to me, which is you said affairs almost never start with sex.

Yeah.

What do they actually start with?

They start with attention. Attention. You know, I think they start the way relationships start, which is you're interested and you're interesting. Yeah. You know, which is something that very quickly can go away in marriage, like. Cause you've heard each other's stories, you've heard each other's jokes. You kind of, you know. You know each other, you know what to expect. That's. By the way, it's part of the joy of being married is it's like, oh, I know what this person's gonna like. I know what they think's funny and what they don't. And I kind of like, the world is so mysterious and challenging, and we have so little control that, like, knowing someone's levers, like, I know it makes them feel good. I know it makes them smile. I know what food they like. Like, that's a nice feeling. But there is something exciting about the mystery of another person and being interesting to someone. Cause I. I don't think love is just about how I feel about you. It's how you and what you feel about me makes me feel about me. Right. Like, there's something about when your partner looks at you, like, wow, look at you. That you look at yourself, like, yeah, look at me, you know? And it's kind of like your grandma saying, like, looking at the old version of herself and going, oh, my God, look at how good you look. Like, look at how good I look. Like, there's something about seeing yourself through the eyes of this person who sees you with desire and excitement and fascination. Like, fascination. It's pretty hard to have fascination for someone you've been with for a decade and who, like, you've cleaned up their socks, you know, like, it's hard. Like, no one's a hero to their butler, you know? And so it really is about, like, how do I still keep this sense of, like, excitement and fascination? Because an affair, it usually starts as Some other kind of interaction. It starts as our kids are on the same softball team or, you know, and social media, by the way. Like, if we were going to invent an infidelity generating machine, it would be called Instagram because it's putting us in touch with a bunch of people that we probably have no business really talking to. Yeah, it's giving us benign, neutral points of entry that we have no reason to feel guilty about at all. Because it's like, no, I'm talking to. I added this person because our kids are on the same team or our kids are in the same. Or we work together. But now I see you in a bikini, you know, and I wasn't gonna see you in a bikini before Instagram. That wouldn't have happened, you know, I wouldn't have seen you out with your girlfriends wearing something low cut. Like, I wouldn't have started seeing you in this different setting as an object potentially of desire. And by the way, I don't know about your experience of social media, but mine is everyone's posting their greatest hits while we live our gag reels. And no one is in the height moments of their life, like, when they're having a wonderful time taking out their phone and scrolling through Instagram. It's always when you're, like, bored or like on the toilet or like sitting and waiting in the waiting room at the doctor's office or on the subway. It's like some moment of kind of, and what are you doing in that wah. Moment, but looking at the most exciting, curated, perfect, filtered version of everyone else's life. So of course your life in that moment sucks compared to that. So now I'm seeing this idealized, stylized version of this other person and we have some interaction, and it's benign interaction. We can message each other and like, oh, yeah, I see you guys went, how was that? Where did you guys stay when you were in Greece? And then it's very easy to have like that little. Because, again, no one's watching. Like, you're not posting it on the Facebook wall. These are DMs. So you're doing the, like, you know, like, wow, you look great. You know, da, da, da, da. And it turns into, okay, now we're flirting, but we're just flirting. It's no big deal. And then that's how it starts because it starts to feel really good. Like, it feels really good because of who you feel. Like, like you feel interesting again, you feel interested again. And that's what it's about. Like, it's about that it's not. It's not about the sex. Like, it really isn't about. Yes, of course, sex is an important piece of things, and sex, I think, is the glue in marriages. Otherwise, just be roommates. But, like, sex is glue. And without that glue, like, yeah, you start to, you know, there starts to be some distance from each other in terms of, like, you are not the thing I align with sexuality. Same thing. Pornography has the same effect for men. If, like 90% of your sexual outlet is women on a screen you will never meet and not your primary sexual partner, you're gonna have issues with that. It's one of the reasons why I've said, and again, I'm not trying to be like the proponent of nudes here, but if your spouse is the kind of person who's a very visual person and otherwise would be very into pornography, or you have to spend extended periods of time away from each other having some nudes of your primary sexual partner and having them and looking at them as your. I don't think that that's a bad thing. Like, you want to be the object of your partner's desire and you want to be the primary association they make with sexuality is you. So again, what happens in these other relationships, it starts with just an interested connection, a benign, safe connection, and then it just turns into something different.

It's probably why you're such a voice to this generation about marriage, because you're so straight talking. It's almost like we're not allowed to say these things anymore.

People say that about. They're. They're always like, he's so blunt. He's so blunt.

And you're like, no, it's pretty, actually. Yeah, it seems, like really obvious and rational. But we're just told that's politically incorrect. No, no, we just don't talk about those things anymore. And so because of that, we have all these narratives that really do not help us progress in, well, I have.

A safe place that I can do it from. Because in a world where it's very easy to get canceled and where therapists come in or researchers come in and say, well, this is what my research has shown, or this is what I've studied, I'm just telling you who's sitting in front of me in the chair. And, like, you can't pretend they meant to be there. They didn't. And you can't be like, well, but you don't really know. No, I do. Like, people lie to their therapists all the time. They don't lie to their Divorce lawyer. Like, there's absolutely no profit in lying to your divorce lawyer. If anything, you gotta tell me all your stuff. And by the way, it's protected by attorney client privilege. Like, I've never once told any client confidence in any public setting. Like, I take my oath as an attorney very seriously. I anonymize everything that I talk about publicly. And the truth is like, yeah, but I get to see a really honest version of this. And people talk to me about, like, you get to know your divorce lawyer. Like, we, you know, we have a really intimate relationship and that you have to be really honest with me. And I get to know your finances and your kids and your parenting and your substance use issues and your mental health issues and your whole family history. So I get to know you really well. And in 25 years of getting to know people that well, like, you really see human emotional complexity. Because I've represented the cheated on and I've represented the cheater, and I've represented victims of domestic violence and intimate partner abuse. And I've represented perpetrators of domestic violence and intimate partners partner abuse. And I have to tell you, you spend enough time with people and you figure out, like, okay, these are hurt people, hurting people. And they did not set out to do that. And if only there were just evil people and we could just sequester them from the good people. But it's not true. Like, the line of good and evil runs right through the human heart, and none of us wants to cut a piece of our own heart out. And so when you spend time with people and start to realize, okay, like, horns and halos isn't really a thing. Like, people have moments like, I'm sure if I looked at the best moment of you as a wife and said, that's what kind of wife she is, I'm giving you way too much credit.

Way too much.

And if I look at the most impatient crap moment you've had as a spouse where you just really missed it, not good. And I said, that's who she is as a wife. I am not giving you enough credit. The truth is, it's kind of about, like, ratios. It's kind of about how it works. And I think that's what I get to see is when it's failed catastrophically. And that gives me the ability to just go, look, don't get mad at me. That's how it is. Yeah.

You know, I feel like I know a lot about this because I watched your new favorite show, which is the Kardashians show about divorce attorneys how did.

You make it through the first episode of that fever dream of a show? I like everything Ryan Murphy has ever done. I'm such a devotee of every American horror story. That show made my eyes bleed.

I think you are missing the brilliance.

The camp, you know what the camera. That's a fact. I am absolutely missing any scintilla of brilliance there is. I, I actually see it as a brilliance black hole. Like it is the event horizon of brilliance. It's gone.

Watching you watch the, the vagina entryway part was just, that was like, that's.

There's a lot from the first episode where they say Kim Kardashian's character says to one of the other people, come work with us. In two years you'll be a multimillionaire.

And I went this episode is brought to you by Diet Coke. You know that moment when you just need to hit pause and refresh. An ice cold Diet Coke isn't just a break. It's your chance to catch your breath and savor a moment that's all about you. Always refreshing, still the same great taste. Diet Coke make time for you time. So you're about to make a trade based on a friend's text. But which u do you listen to? Is it we could buy a house in Tulum, get optioning those options. We could lose everything. Or let's do a little research, get your head in the trade and make the investment decision that's right for you. Learn more@finra.org TradeSmart.

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast Smart move. Being financially savvy. Smart move. Another smart move having State Farm help you create a competitive price when you choose to bundle home and auto bundling. Just another way to save with a personal price plan. Like a good neighbor. State Farm is there. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings and eligibility vary by state. In divorce law, like in divorce you think in two years you're going to be a multimillionaire. In divorce law, by the way, with offices like and she also too is like Kim Kardashian's character is driving a Bentley has certain. I'm sorry, are you in venture capital? Like, what are you in? Because divorce like listen, we're not wearing sackcloth and ashes. We're doing all right. But like I can. There's only a certain number of hours in the day I can bill and there's only so many. Like I'd have a Bunch of lawyers working for me, but they're not me. So people eventually would go, where's Jim? I hired him. Like, if I'm. Oh, no, no, I'm not your lawyer. I know you hired me, but here's Bob. He's gonna be your lawyer. Like, people eventually get very mad about that. Like, if your therapist said, I'm not gonna be your therapist this week, I have Steve. He's come in. He's gonna do it. You'd be like, yeah, we're not doing that. You know, So I. I just don't know. Maybe they could have just spoken to, like, one actual divorce lawyer and made some aspect of it with the all star, amazing cast that they have.

I loved it so much. I told my.

I know.

Is that terrible? I'm a terrible person. But I live.

I gotta. I gotta leave. I'm sorry. I know I've never walked off of the show.

And, like, I was like, I think I'm a Kim Kardashian Stan now, like. Which is not something young Cody would.

Listen, I got no beef with Kim Kardashian. I really don't.

Cause you were her divorce attorney.

I really don't know. I was not her divorce attorney to California. I think she had Laura. Laura Wasser's amazing and a beloved colleague and a super talent. No, I think that she.

She's amazing at outrage, though. I think she planned it all. Maybe, like, even her. She did this post that I was like, God, the Internet fascinates me. Like, psychology of how people engage on the Internet. And in the same way, like, I find you fascinating because you seem to feed off of. You know, when people get amped, you're like, nah, it doesn't fucking bother me. And I think she's like that on the Internet, when people get amp. Choosing.

Well, listen, that entire family has figured out how to leverage people's emotional state into something very profitable. It's not for me. I don't want to try to be an armchair psychologist of Kim. But what I will say is I have a son who's 28 years old, and he's a lawyer, and I never pushed him to be a lawyer. I really was. Find something you love as much as I love what I do. Because I'm blessed to be one of those people that. One of those rare people that does not spend five days a week looking forward to two, you know, like, I can't wait to get back to work. I love it. And I get the feeling that because her father was a phenomenal attorney, her father Was an amazing attorney. I mean, he's legendary in the legal profession as his skill. He's a trial lawyer. Yeah, he's a criminal defense lawyer, but he was an incredibly gifted courtroom lawyer. Those are big, big. It's a big shadow that man casts. So my heart really goes out to her because I didn't know her father, but I can't imagine that he would not be incredibly proud of her. Like, she is such a successful business person. She's a mom. She's so many things so well. But I think there is still this piece that goes, yeah, but I wanna be a lawyer. Cause it would be something he'd be proud of. And so if that's what this comes from is this desire to keep taking the bar and trying and da, da. I'm cheering for her. You know, I'm cheering for her. I hope she pulls it out, but I don't think she needs to do it to have her father be proud of her. I think he's probably incredibly proud of her. I say that as a father.

I know it goes back to your big heart. I mean, one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about was prenups. Speaking of famous people.

Prenups.

Prenups.

You.

There was a video I saw where you gave Taylor Swift some advice pre Travis Kelce, which was one word a lot of times repeated.

Yep.

Taylor.

Prenup.

Taylor, tell me, obviously, do you think everybody should get a prenup? Yeah.

I'll take it a step further. Everybody has a prenup. Everybody has a prenup. It's either one that the government wrote or it's one that you and the person that you've decided you like. Other than the 8 billion other options, who do you think's better at. Have you been to the dmv? You ever walk into the DMV and go, oh, yeah, these people should be in charge of everything. This is great. Like, I've never been in any government office and went, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. These people, let's put them in charge of everything. Like, if you don't do a prenup, you've decided that the state legislature of the state in which you reside at the time you divorce. Okay, so not even the current government, a future government you haven't met yet, they'll do a better job than you and your partner. That's insane. Whether you're on the left or the right or the, like, you know, unhappy middle, I think we can all agree in the last 10 years, both sides of the political fence have said the government sucks. Right. In 2016, the left was like, the government sucks. 2020, the right was like, the government sucks. Like everybody suddenly, you know, okay, so can we all agree then that signing up for a contract. Cuz that's all marriage is, a contract, okay? You're signing a contract. Unlike, by the way, every other contract you ever sign, you know, as a business person, get it in paper. Sign contracts, yes. Handshake deals are important. Principles are important. Get lawyers involved. Putting this on paper, okay? 100%, all right? And you put them on paper while you're getting along, you don't go, my partner and I, we get along so good, we don't need to do every business that fails. And as the ugliest courtroom battle, it's because we were friends and we trust each other. We need to write things down. And then when it goes wrong and when it's successful, that's when it falls apart. That's when everyone goes, well, wait a minute, we'd agreed to that, but that was when that. So you get it in. Get it in writing while you're getting along. Okay, so are you going to say the state legislature in the future? I trust them so much that I'm going to say whatever rules they think are fair, I agree to. And by the way, if they change the rules, I'm okay with that too. And I can't opt out of the contract. Like if you lease, if you like, a simple contract is a car lease. So let's say you lease a Porsche and halfway through the lease, they go. By the way, your payment's staying the same. But now we're giving you a Honda Civic. You would be like, well, no, then I'm out of this contract. Well, imagine if they could say, yeah, sorry, you can't opt out of the contract. We can change the contract, but you can't change the contract. And you're in the contract no matter what. Well, that's what you're doing if you marry without a prenup. So I think the reason why prenups are so dramatically on the rise now, are they? Absolutely.

Like, what percentage of people get a prenup?

It's very hard to say because prenups are not filed anywhere. They're only filed when they're filed as part of a divorce. And when they're filed as part of a divorce, they're in a sealed matrimonial file. And people lie about prenups. Prenups. Because I will tell you, I represent a lot of celebrities and athletes and I Have more than once been watching, you know, Access Hollywood or Entertainment Tonight, and they're interviewing a celebrity who's getting married and they go, so did you guys do a prenup? And they go, oh no, we don't need a prenup. I'm like, you're lying. It's in my safe. Like it's in my safe. You signed it at my conference table two days ago. Why are you telling people you don't have a preference? Because I understand why. Because it's this like. No, that's how much we love each other. We just trust that we're never gonna get divorced. Which by the way, you know, again I tell people because I represent a lot of people in finance because I'm a divorce lawyer in New York City. I always tell people, don't look at marriage like gambling or like buying a stock. Cuz a stock, if you invest a million dollars, it can go to zero. Getting married is like shorting stocks. Like there's no amount, there's no stop loss. Like it's just like they could change the law anytime and really screw you and you can't get out of it. So there is so much value in my opinion. What's happening with younger people? They're pragmatic. When I say younger, I mean in their 20s, their 30s, the demographic that's getting married, they're just starting to say pragmatically like, yeah, we got, by the way, all of us, all of my colleagues, we all see a dramatic increase in the number of prenups that we're doing. And then there are, you know, it's also getting easier to do prenups. You know, one of the ventures I'm involved in is trusted prenup.com. and what we did is we basically used like AI, we used large language model and several hundred prenups that I've done in various financial situations. We fed into this thing that's brilliant. And we created basically like a vlog online, kind of choose your own adventure of how to do a prenup. We guarantee it's its airtight ability, its enforceability, and we basically say valid in all 50 states and we make it affordable to people. We've democratized prenups.

What does it cost?

$599 is the price point for it. If you want to have attorney review, meaning that you want to have an attorney licensed in the state in which you reside, review it for you and also have one for your spouse, it's still under $2,000. That's incredible to put that in perspective, the retainer most divorce lawyers take for drafting a prenups 15,000.

Oh, I remember.

So, yeah, so it's a much, much cleaner, easier way of doing it. And again, do I still think the old fashioned way of going and hiring an attorney and having your question answered? I think that's a great way to do it. But the way we did it on trusted prenup.com is I've counseled so many hundreds of people on prenups. We just made all these little videos of me answering the most common questions that people have about their prenup. And at each stage along the way, when you're trying to decide which option to take, you can watch a video of me answering that question. So it's a way to just sort of make this scalable. And again, we did it really to democratize prenups because everyone has a prenup. Again, it's either one that's written by the government or it's one that's written by these two people. And to me, that's a no brainer.

So good. What is the craziest prenup you've ever seen?

I mean, I've seen a lot of crazy prenups. I will say two. One of them I've talked about before, and that is there was a prenup where for every 10 pounds she gained during the marriage, she lost 10,000 doll a month in alimony. And it was enforceable. That was the funniest thing, is that a court upheld it. And the judge who upheld it, who was female, said, I want to say, I don't know why you married this man. This is a boorish clause. It's disgusting. But it's a contract and the two of you signed it and you had a lawyer and he had a lawyer and it's enforceable. So it was upheld. Now I tell you, here's why lawyers are weird. I mean, it's one of the many reasons. But when I read the provision, I remember thinking, oh, I could work with this because if I was her, like, you have to have a baseline weight. Yeah. So I was like, all right, just like put like pennies in your pockets and wear your heaviest clothes. And then if you get divorced, be like a pro fighter. Like, wear the sweatsuit, be in the sauna, get butt naked on the scale and like strip it down as much as you can. But, you know, here's what I'll tell you. There was something honest about that prenup because he was an ogreish fellow and he had A lot of money and she was beautiful and didn't really bring much else to the table. And I think they were honest about the economy of that relationship. Because I think relationships are an economy. I don't think that's a dirty word. I think that if an economy is an exchange of value, then you marry someone because there's an exchange of value. You give value, you receive value. And what value is worth what is a very subjective concept between those two people. And it's very hard to quantify, like, oh, how much is this worth or that worth? So that's the most crazy prenup I ever saw. I see a lot of prenups where people make insane demands. I'm seeing a lot of it lately and I'm seeing it more with women, where women are. Because I do a lot of prenups for guys in finance. So they're in their 30s or 40s and they've got, you know, 10 million, 20 million and they're marrying like a yoga teacher or they're marrying like, you know, someone who just does not have the assets that they have and is usually beautiful and brings that to the table and more fun than them because they've had their head down and been, you know, you've been at Goldman. You know, they got their head down and they're doing their thing, they're working the hours. And you know, they, the men very quickly are like, yeah, just. I want her to waive everything, like, unless it's in her name. Like, if it's in my name, it's mine. If it's in joint names, okay, we'll split it 50, 50. If it's in her name, it's hers. But nothing, nothing. She gets nothing. No alimony, no anything. And I have seen a lot more women now say, okay, I'll do a prenup, but I want. I have some things I'm gonna want, like I want in the marriage and some things if the marriage ends. Cause you can put in a prenup. Some of the things that we want in the marriage too. So I've had women that are like, oh, I want to push present if we have kids of no less value. I want this many vacations of no less value than this. I want a monthly personal appearance allowance that'll cover things I want for my self care. And they're being very pragmatic about it. And there's a little more pushback. And I think that that's an interesting thing to me. I think. I actually don't. There are probably some People that would be judgmental about that transaction. But I really do think, at the risk of getting misty eyed about it, that I don't think you can feel loved if you don't feel safe. And I think a prenup is about both people feeling safe. Like, I'll give, but do I have to give everything? Like, will I get my legs chopped out from under me? And, you know, I need security. Like, I need security if you're gonna be the breadwinner and I'm gonna be a supportive other and I'm gonna, like, diminish my lifetime earning capacity by not pursuing other ventures, or I'm gonna give you my skinny years, or I'm gonna. Whatever it is, like, I need some security. And I think a rational person who wants their partner to feel safe would go, okay, I get that. So what is it? Like? What's the answer? I don't know that the answer is half of everything I have. But there's probably an answer we can come to. And I think just having that conversation is potentially an opportunity for us to talk about some important things in this relationship and what we mean to each other and what we owe each other.

It's a good point because I've seen a lot of. So I went through kind of. I'm almost 40 now. I'm 39. And I remember, like, my first round of friends who all got married and we lived in Dallas and most of us got divorced. And for whatever reason, we all got married kind of young. And I was the first one. And then they would call me later, you know, and kind of be like, how does it happen? So you talked to a divorce attorney. How much does that cost? What do I do with the finances? I was probably one of the only ones that worked. And I was. I made the money then. And so they didn't know where any of the money was. You know, there was a lot of hidden stuff for them. You know, the men obviously felt like I did all the work, but they felt like they had all the babies because it was Dallas, so everybody was having babies. And there was like this massive amount of fear, I think, on both sides, which seems like it's not good for divorce because when you're both scared, then you do crazy things.

Yeah.

And I wonder how much better many of them would have been if they would have said the quiet part out loud first.

I think all of them would have been better. I think premarital education would have been really good for everybody. Like, all of the people that talk about, oh, no fault divorce Is bad for our culture because it makes it too easy to get divorced. I don't believe that for a second. But I think if you actually want to change the divorce rate, we have to create barriers to entry. Like, I can't get a driver's license without taking a written test, passing a vision test, then passing a road test, then having a probationary license for a certain period of time. Marriage, 50 bucks Elvis will marry you in Nevada. Like, that's it. You don't get a pamphlet. You just did the most legally significant thing you're gonna do other than die, and you didn't get a pamphlet. Like, the first time most people learn what legally happened when they got married is when they're getting divorced. Like, you don't have to be a black belt in Brazilian jiu jitsu to tell somebody the worst time to learn how to fight is when you're in a fight. Like, if I asked your husband, when's the best time to learn how to shoot a gun? Is it when I'm in a gunfight? No, that's the worst possible time. Like, literally any time in your entire life prior to that moment would have been a good time to learn, right? So why don't we just have some basic premarital education? Why don't we have some sense of, hey, by the way, you're opting out of the title system. Your estate rights have automatically changed on both the state and federal level when you got married. Most people have no idea. So why not? Why not have everyone asked to spend one hour with a divorce lawyer before they can get marriage license? That seems very fair to me. It seems like something that would be useful for people, cuz at least that way they'll know take this thing seriously. And I know what my downside risk is. And look, I think anybody. One of the beautiful things about being in a relationship, in my opinion, is the ability that you're not doing all of it yourself. You know, like, maybe you like to cook and I like doing dishes, you know, or maybe you don't mind taking the dogs out and I don't mind doing the laundry. Like, and there's this sense of like, hey, like, let's both figure out what it. But here's the thing. You should know how to do laundry. Like, I'm not saying, like, if I don't mind doing laundry and you don't really like doing laundry. Cool, I'll do laundry. Like, if you like. Let me tell you something. We were in a relationship. You can handle the finances, Knock yourself out. You're better at it than me. I'm a good lawyer. I'm not a great businessman. Perfect. Here you go. You're in charge of that. I trust you enough. You're in charge. Okay, but I should know where the accounts are. I should have some basic. We should have a meeting once a month where we go. Okay, babe, so you remember, this is all here. And remember, I invested in this. And here's what's going on with that. And just so you know, just so you know, if, God forbid, something happens to me, you'll know where everything was. But again, there's this sense that, like. No, no, it's like Voldemort. If we say it out loud. If we say, like, well, what if we ever split up? Or, what if one of us died? By the way, one of those two things is definitely gonna happen. Like, one of you is gonna die or you're gonna get divorced. Definitely. Guaranteed. Like, you're both gonna die. Definitely. That's just reality. So why not just say, hey, we need to both know how to do some things? Like, if you don't like to cook. I'm not saying you have to learn to cook if you're gonna be in a relationship. But, like, your partner's gonna be away sometimes you have to know how to, like, okay, I know how to, like, scramble an egg. I know how to do some basic girl dinner.

Yeah, yeah, something.

Some bachelor dinner. Like, learn how to make some little thing, you know, because again, otherwise you're creating a situation where there's this imbalance of power that I don't think is good. I don't think it's healthy long term.

When you talk to a judge, do you talk like that?

No.

You're really calm.

No, I have to do a whole character. Yeah, no, you have to do.

What's the character?

Well, here's what's funny. You know, like, there's a saying that fame is the mask that eats into the wearer. Oh, like, that's a bar. Some of these people know me now, so, like, I give them a little more Sexton. Yeah, I get to be a little more.

This is you.

Yeah, this is me. And I get to be a little more me. Yeah, it's a very polished up, non profane version of me. But there's a lot it depends on the judge. Like, I'll tell you, a good lawyer knows the law. A great lawyer knows the judge. And, like, I know which judges, like, enjoy the Sexton show. So there's some judges. When I'm trying cases, I Can pull some shit, you know, like, I can do the show. And, like, they don't want the steak, they want the sizzle. And then there's some judges that they like, they know that I'm a showman and they're expecting that and they don't like it. So they don't get that. They get the very. If it may please the court, you, Honor. You know, and at the end of the day, like, yes, I have this very performative streak, and I'm a trial lawyer, and trial lawyers are closet hacks. Like, we all want to be like, you know, comedians or actors, but I am a law geek to the core. Like, I love this job. I study the appellate division decisions as they come out. Like, I know my wow. And I love what I do. And I know the law. And I've memorized most of Black's Law dictionary. Like, hearsay is a statement made by the declarant, other than one by testifying at trial or other proceeding offered into evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted. Like, I have it all in here, but I still like to put on the show. But at the end of the day, if the show's not gonna work, okay. And that's what's interesting about this profession, is people will come into my office. It's the only job where someone will come into your office and go, I heard you're a ruthless son of a bitch. And they mean it as a compliment. Like, I was described by New York magazine as the sociopath you want on your side. Now I get misty eyed talking about dogs. I'm clearly not a sociopath. But it's like, sometimes that's what the tool. That's the task, right? Like, the task is like, there's cases where I need to be like, the ruthless, sadistic person who's going to cross examine you to death. And then there are cases where, like, my job is to be consolatory and friendly and keep the energy of it, you know, in a calm place. And, you know, there's a. There's a saying I memorized years ago from Rhesus because people used to say to me, like, how do you represent, like, how do you, like, eviscerate someone on cross examination? Like, how do you go at someone the way you have to as a lawyer sometimes? And I think anyone who's ever been in the military and had to be in combat, or anyone who's ever had to, like, do things that feel like, harsh or amoral or immoral, There's a line from rhesus Sardonicus, where he said, I've resigned myself to temporary complicity with evil in order to accomplish certain specific objectives for people whose suffering is more important than my need to maintain moral purity. And so I feel like in my line of work, I don't have a need to maintain moral purity. Like, I represent the good guy, I represent the bad guy. Like, I'm a weapon. And you point the weapon. And a weapon in the hands of someone who's a good person can protect and save. And a weapon in the hands of a villain is a very dangerous thing, but I'm the weapon. And I don't always believe in the client, but I don't just represent the client. I represent the system. And I always believe in the system. Like, I think our legal system is a good legal system. It's got problems. Like, we have the worst legal system, except for all the other ones, you know? And I believe in it. And I think you get to be part of justice happening.

Yeah. It's interesting, my husband always says this line from Ender's Game, which is great book about war. Yeah. And how we will debate the morals of war after we've won it.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I think there's a lot of similarities in some way.

Well. And I think your husband would understand what I consider to be, you know, the world needs bad men. We keep the other bad men from the door.

I think that's true.

And I think that that's something. What we have to do. And I think that a lot of the first 20 years of my profession was about becoming a weapon in a courtroom and honing that craft and honing that skill. And about five or six years ago, because I wake up at 4am every day and it's really quiet, I just started writing the book just as sort of something to do, to use a different muscle. And I started to write this sort of, like, reverse how to book. It was like a how not to. Like, how not to screw up your marriage. And I suddenly, like, had a book. I found I'd written a book like it. Like, if you write a page a day, in a year, you got a book, you know? And I remember thinking, oh, this is a completely different thing. And I wonder if this will hurt the world's perception of me as this, like, weapon and as this. And I'm very happy to say it hasn't.

No. Tell them the title in the UK Again. I really like the title.

Yeah. So the title in the US is How to Stay in Love. Practical Wisdom from an Unlikely Source. And in the uk, this is why I love the uk is how to not fuck up your marriage. Marriage, Which I thought.

I like it better, I like it.

Better, I like it better.

But I do like this cover a lot, too. And I think one of the interesting parts, too. I've met, like, we have a dear friend whose name is Roy Altman, and he is the. One of the youngest. I'm gonna get it wrong. He's a judge in Florida and I think one day, potentially will be on the Supreme Court. And he is an appointed judge.

Okay.

Federal judge. And anyway, his memory recall of both the law and quotes and scripts reminds me a lot of you in a different way.

It's a wild thing.

It's a weird skill you guys have, but it's in the book, too, and in your quotes, which is this interweaving of 25 years of experience from being an attorney, but also this, like, double life you have of reading all of these laws continuously. And then, I mean, I have to assume that you're a big. You've mentioned a few poets, You've mentioned a few.

Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I'm very. I read constantly. I love literature, I love poetry, I love film, I love art. I've always been a person who loved to travel and to sort of take in things from other cultures. So, yeah, I think that everything I do is infused, like my Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, my interest in feudal Japan and sort of the ideas of Bushido and the Warrior Code and things like that. That infuses my practice. My undergraduate degree in psychology and my interest in Carl Jung, my interest in psychedelics, like, all of the things that these have all infused what it is that I do. My upbringing, I was raised very religious. I was raised very dogmatically Catholic and then went all the other way and became a total atheist and then somehow found myself back in, like, this happy agnostic middle place. Yeah, I think that all of it infuses the way that I. I think how you do every Anything's how you do everything. I mean, I really do, I think, think that if we bring the fullness of ourself to whatever the task is, it's going to be infused with all the best parts of us.

It's so good. What is your favorite? Just as like a pure. This is a curious question for Cody, not even for anybody listening, but you've mentioned a few poets and a few action books. What are your favorites? What's your favorite poem of all time?

My favorite poem of all, is it the Prodsky probably would be a song by Joseph Brodsky. I think that's a beautiful, beautiful poem.

It's number one.

Yeah, I love that one. Gosh. Of poems. I think Allen Ginsberg, some of his poems are incredible. I would say let it enfold you by Charles Bukowski. Charles Bukowski, Yeah. So I would say probably my two favorite poems, other than a song by Joseph Brodsky, would be Bluebird by Bukowski. And let it unfold you. Let it unfold you. I think is, I still can't get all the way through Bluebird without crying.

Get out.

Like, if I read Bluebird out loud, I get halfway through it and start crying.

Oh, mine is on writing by Bukowski. Have you read that one? Especially as an author. You know that line about like, the libraries of the world have yawned themselves to sleep by another book as a business card. You're just like, fuck, you're right. Don't write a shitty book.

It's interesting. You like cynical Bukowski.

Yeah.

And I like. I like this world has exhausted me in some house. I haven't given up. Bukowski, like, let it enfold you is about, like, how broken he was and he still found beauty in the world. And Bluebird's about that too. So those are my two favorite poems.

But I don't think on writing is. Is cynical by Bukowski. Because the last lines about like, yeah, you know, either it'll die inside you or you'll die if you don't write it.

No, it's meant to be. It's meant to be inspirational. It's not.

But he was also a psychopath too. Yeah, some of his stuff. Yeah.

I mean, some of the greatest artists, I think are in all, genius. There's madness. I mean, I've represented some of these people and their divorces. Some musicians that are incredibly gifted and they're really disturbed people. But authors, I mean, I would say, I think the book that I find most powerful to me is all the Light We Cannot See by Anthony Dorwer. I think that's a beautiful book because I think what it's about isn't what it's about. I think it's about what does it mean to be human and love and the complex nature of human beings. I just read an amazing book by an author named Jason Green. It's a pretty new book. It's called Unworld. Arguably it's about, like, artificial intelligence, but it's really not. It's about grief and loss and love. It's still in hardcover. It's a brand new book. I bought it as, like, on a whim. Anthony Jeselnik recommended it. And I was like, oh, I'll get it. And I bought it. I was going to Vegas just for, like, to play blackjack and have a nice, fun weekend. And I'm sitting by the pool at the Palazzo, crying.

Yeah, that was good.

See that? Like, crying, like, crying, like, a little. Like. Like. Because there's some passages in it that are just so well written that I would get mad at it. Cause I was like, I'll never write anything that good. But also, like, some of it is just so. It's so moving of a book. It's just about, like, what is. What is consciousness? What does it mean to love someone and lose them? And I'm sitting by the pool at the Palazzo. Like. Like, really, like, tears coming down my face, trying to, like, look like, oh, no, I'm just. You know, I got sunscreen in my eyes. But it was so Unworld by Jason Green. That would be another one. But, yeah, I mean, poetry has always spoken to me. My mother was a very. My mother was very moved by beauty, and I was very lucky for that. I'm thinking about her a lot today. Cause it was 10 years today. And whenever I think about her, the longer that she's gone, the more I see the pieces of that are born of her. Because those pieces are, like, the only way I get to see her now. And something about her that was so amazing that I didn't understand when I was a kid is how she would just be moved to tears by things. Like, she'd be singing along with a song and just start crying. And as a kid, I was like, what's the matter? Did you skin your knee? What are you doing? And it was just that she's like, oh, it's just so pretty. And I would find myself going like, oh, wow. Okay. Like. Like. And. And that was okay, you know? And I. I never. I never let the experience of being a man beat that out of me.

Yeah. To still have the ability to have.

Yeah. To still be moved by beauty. Like, I would cry from beauty much more than I ever cry from pain, you know? And so I think poetry is still a way to, like, deeply connect to that.

With this book, who do you hope reads it and what do you hope they take away?

Gosh, there's a whole bunch of people I hope read it. I hope that people who are just getting into relationships read it. Because I think it could give them some skills that they can use early on. Because I think it's A whole lot easier to stay in good shape than it is to get super heavy and then try to lose all the weight. So I think it's a whole lot easier to stay in love than it is to be in love, let it fall apart, neglect it, and then try to find your way back. But I hope that some people find it who maybe are starting that slide and say, okay, is there a way to turn this thing around? I hope some people who are way down deep in that valley of it will read it and either realize, okay, maybe there's a path, or okay, there isn't. Because I think you and I have both found in our lives that sometimes happily ever after means happily ever after separately. And that the barn burns down and now I can see the moon. And I think that you are the sum of all of these things. And as two people who divorced and then found love after our divorce. And even my ex wife, she's been remarried for 15 years to an amazing guy. Our oldest son just got married a couple of months ago and we're all at the wedding together. And. And I'll tell you a funny story, we were sitting at the wedding together and my now daughter in law, they were law school sweethearts, my son. And she's this brilliant lawyer and she's beautiful and she's smart. She's just an amazing young woman. And they wrote their own vows. And so my son gave his vows and they were very lovely. He has some of his dad's performance skills and he. But he's more intelligent, he's more like academic and wonky. And then she started her vows. I'm gonna try to get through this without getting misty eyed. And she's like, you know, you're the strongest man I know. You make me feel so safe like you're. And I was like, oh, shit. Like I taught him, the cow says moo. I had some peace in that, like. And that this was the goal, like this was the goal to make that kind of man that a woman that amazing would feel that way about. And so she's reading these vows and all of a sudden, you know, just, that's it, you know, tears start pouring out of me. And my niece is sitting next to me, like very subtly hands me a tissue, you know, thank you. And my ex wife, who's sitting next to me, who I'm still friendly with, leans over and goes, you're such a. And I was like, yep, that's my life. That's my life right there.

You need both to be honest.

Yeah, yeah, It Was like the real yin in the end.

You got him.

Yeah, yeah. It was amazing. Amazing. It was an amazing moment. And I told my son about it later. He's like, yep, that's mom.

Mom.

That's mom.

I feel like I kind of like her.

Yeah, she's great. Oh, I do too. Please. What are my. There's a lot of people I love who wouldn't want to be married to.

Oh, same.

She would say that about me. She was like, oh, Jim's great in the rearview mirror. Like, he's a great co parent. I'm a great ex husband. By the way, the skill set for an ex husband, the resume for an ex husband, totally different than for a husband. Like, I'm bad at husband husband. I have to be like, tell me about your day. Oh, really? Like, I'm not. I'm like, on. We gotta land this plane. Like, let's go, come on. I gotta, like, skip to the end, you know, And I, I, but ex husband. Ex husband. Reliable, punctual, reliable. When it comes to the kids, the check shows up on time, everything great. I was great at being an ex husband.

I always joke with, with my husband. I'm like, nannies. I have a lot of rules when it comes to nannies that I want to end on this one, actually. I want to get your take on it. And my two main rules are I have age and weight minimum, and they're pretty high. They're pretty high because I've seen what people do with their nannies.

Well, you know, there's a chapter in my book called everyone's the nanny.

Okay. It's true. So am I right? Agent Weight minimums help.

Oh, what are the real. They don't help.

God damn it.

They don't help that much. I mean, definitely don't go for, like, the super hot Polish nanny. Terrible idea. Well, I'll tell you two two nanny stories very quickly.

Okay.

One is I, I, I, I tell in the book, there's a story about a guy, they hired a nanny. The husband decided to try to convince the nanny to have a threesome with he and the wife without telling the wife he was going to try to encourage her to do this and then went to the wife and said, oh, the nanny wants to have a threesome with us. And the wife was like, I don't think we should do that. And the nanny was like, I don't think we should do that. And he was like, no, no, the other one wants this. And da, da. And he somehow convinced both of them. And so they Ended up having three of them. It would happen to every couple. Couple of months. They'd have threesomes together. And then one night, wife is out, and he says to the nanny, hey, she's not home. Why don't we, the two of us? And she's like, whoa, that wasn't the deal. The deal was, I thought we were doing, like a group thing. And he was like, oh, no, it's no big deal. She'd be fine with it. And the nanny, a couple of weeks later, says to the wife, by the way, you know, the other night he approached me and said it would be okay with you. And the wife was like, yeah, that's not okay with me. The PS of the story, the wife left him for the nanny, and they lived happily ever after. Last time, this was like 12 years ago. They're still together.

That is the best karma I've ever heard in my whole life.

Yeah. So I was like, that is the risk of trying to convince the nanny to get involved in a threesome. But I talk about in the book what I call the nanny fascination. And I actually think that there's a fairly benign explanation for it, and that is that the nanny. The nanny, in some ways represents a lot of the aspects of the wife before you guys had kids. She has a life outside the home. She has interests outside the home. She is still something of a mystery to you, and you're a mystery to her. She likes the father. Cause he's like the dad, and it's kind of cool. And, you know, and he's also. There's a, you know, there's an economic aspect to their relationship that makes it very simple that it's like, I pay you, you take care of the kids. And what I said, the solution to it is actually not hire really unattractive nannies. Because there are some examples even of celebrities who have left for far less attractive people. There's a lot of celebrities who've left for nannies and a lot of non celebrities who've left for nannies. I actually think the secret is a pretty easy one, and that is reclaim the parts of yourself that were part of the nanny. I think that a woman, particularly when you have children, there's a tremendous temptation to spend a lot of your time and energy focused on your children, to take whatever time you have left over, focus it on your husband. And I think that there is tremendous value in really continuing to have the you, the me, and the we, and to take time to be yourself, like to do the yoga class, do the pilates class, go out with the friends, join the book club, do whatever it is that made you uniquely you and kept you as something other than just a mom. Because being a mom is such an all consuming task that of course, it's understandable to say I want to devote all of my attention and time to it. But there is tremendous value for you, for your spouse, for your kids, for the betterment of this ecosystem that is your home in maintaining your connection to your true self and who you are independently of the family. So I think that's the lesson that can be learned from the nanny thing. But, yeah, the nanny thing's a thing.

God, I knew it. This is so good.

Yeah, you gotta be careful with the nannies. So. Family member's always the best. Like, I've never. I've only had a couple of divorces where someone was sleeping with someone's family member. I've done a few of those, though. Cousins, sisters, brothers.

I was gonna have to not ask you some questions, you know, because I don't wanna know.

You know what's funny is I've been doing this so long that every once in a while, like, I'll. I'll share with somebody, like something that happened in a case and they'd be like, oh, my God. And I'll go, oh, I guess that is weird. Yeah, that's. But you just don't, like. You just don't, you know, to like. I don't know. This is what I do. Like, you just don't. Yeah, I just. See, I navigate this weird, weird world, you know?

Well, I just want to say thank you so much for coming today. I have loved going down the rabbit hole. I want people to follow you on all the socials. I find your tick tock and Instagram to be fascinating. I like the show that you're doing now too. Yeah. Where you have people ask you questions really good and then obviously read the book how to Stay in love.

Appreciate it. James, thanks for being here. Great to see you. Absolutely. Thanks, guys. And Doug, here we have the Limu emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. Fascinating. It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug Limu. Is that guy with the binoculars watching us? Cut the camera. They see us. Only pay for what you need. Need at libertymutual. Com. Liberty Liberty. Liberty. Liberty Savings Ferry Unwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates Excludes Massachusetts.