#117 Stop People Pleasing: How To Set Boundaries (And Say No) | Charlamagne Tha God

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You just genuinely gotta not give a fuck. We're all in verbally abusive relationships with our smartphones. Why would you go to a place where somebody's constantly telling you that you ain't shit? If you were married to a person like that, you wouldn't stick around in that relationship. So why do we take our monkey asses over to social media, especially Twitter?

Charlamagne tha God has built his career by telling the truth out loud and doing the inner work to handle the fallout. In this episode, we're going to get tactical about how to have difficult conversations, how to win, what it takes to win, how to deal with things when it's not going well. And we're going to break down the biggest lies people tell themselves about the world around them, acceptance, and how to actually make yourself better without hating yourself. What do you think the most important question is to ask in a conversation when you want to find the truth?

Oh, I definitely think it's why. In particular, politicians. Always ask the question twice.

I aspire to be this level of 50 Cent petty. Like, talk to me about what's happening there.

From the things that I've seen, I get it. Don't offend the wrong person. Yeah, that's one of the 40 laws of power. Do not offend the wrong person because you might have an enemy for life.

So I kind of want to start with the fact that you've interviewed all of these legends. For years, and I'm so curious when you're interviewing big names, one of the most interesting parts for me listening to you is like, you don't let 'em go easy. Like you got the hard questions almost always with like a lot of empathy, I think.

Nowadays. Nowadays more empathy.

Interesting. Back in the day you went at 'em.

I wasn't even thinking about it. It was just like, you know, I didn't even look at them as humans, so to speak. I was just, you know, I had a job to do and I felt like I wanted to ask these questions as a curious person. Right. And, and because, you know, I always wanna ask the questions that other people wanna know about. And so it was just like, I was gonna do that regardless. So I didn't even look at a person as a human. I know that sounds crazy, right? But I really didn't. It was just the subject of an interview, you know? And I didn't think about this person is going to leave here and they might have a whole family or kids or, you know, they're gonna be thinking about, you know, these things later on. Like, you know, so it's just like, I just used to ask the question.

Now do you think you're nicer? Are you softer?

Hmm. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I would hope so. I don't, yeah, nicer, softer. Like those aren't negative words, right? Like a lot of people like to act like those are negative words in this business. But I mean, some of the nicest, most softest people are known as some of the greatest interviews ever, greatest interviewers ever. Like, personally, I like the Larry Kings of the world, right? Because they just had an intellectual curiosity. I remember one time Larry King told me, God bless the day, Larry King said, the most important question you can ask asking to interview Charlamagne is why. And so that's a simple question, but it does help you to dig very deep. But then I love the interview style of people like Barbara Walters as well. It might have came off as intrusive and aggressive, but she knew that she had a job to do. And if that person is sitting in front of you as a fan of culture, you have certain questions you're gonna ask, but you also know that the people watching have questions they want you to ask. So I think it's a combination of both. So nice isn't a bad intention to approach, you know, an interview with. Like, you can still be nice and still ask the hard-hitting questions.

What do you think the most important question is to ask in a conversation when you wanna find the truth?

Oh, I definitely think it's why. And I definitely think when you're, you know, interviewing people, in particular politicians, Always ask the question twice. Because when you ask the question, they'll have a prepared answer for it, right? But then when you ask 'em again and say, but why? Now they really gotta answer from the human aspect and not the politician. We sat around with our team and these are the answers we came up with to answer this question. They really gotta answer it. So I think asking whatever the question is twice, but then when you ask it again, that's when you hit 'em with the, Why though?

Interesting.

Mm-hmm.

Do you, how much do you prep for an interview?

Oh, a lot.

What does that look like?

Like I said, I'm a fan of culture. And when I say culture, I don't just mean entertainment. I mean everything from sports to politics, 'cause politics is pop culture now, to spiritualness, mindfulness, like all of these different things. So I'm usually already kind of well-versed on whoever it is I'm sitting down talking to. But then when you sitting down to have an interview, you just wanna see what was really going on, like in that moment. Because usually like most people have something going on in that moment that you would want to talk about. If it's an author who has a book out, read their book. You know, if it's a, you know, person who dropped a movie or a TV show, watch the movie, watch the TV show just so you can be, you know, well-versed on that individual. But I also like the sense of discovery that happens in interviews. So you don't want to be over-prepped, right? 'Cause sometimes you'll be talking to a person and you kind of already know where they're going with the conversation. So you might be saying things before they say it. So it's like sometimes I just like the sense of discovery of finding things out, you know, in conversation.

Yeah. It's interesting. I think about it a lot. I mean, you have a giant audience, but I remember like it was just a few weeks ago when I realized, wow, one episode, if you consider shorts and, and YouTube too, is gonna get a couple million people to watch it.

Yeah.

And if that means there's a million hours spent listening to this moment, That's kind of fucking scary. I better value it. Yes. What if we waste their time? What if we give them a bunch of bullshit?

But that's the thing. What you just said, Codie Sanchez Sanchez, is absolutely true. But I look at it also from another angle of— and I know this is going to sound dark— but what about when these people die? Like literally, over the last 15 years, I've had conversations with a lot of people who are no longer here. So when I sit down with people, that's what I think about. What if this is just person's last conversation ever? You know, what if it's my last conversation ever? Like, but usually when you're talking to these people, God, yes. You know what I'm saying? But usually when you're talking to these individuals, these are moments in time that when, you know, this person gets older, they might use for documentaries, or when this person passes away, they might use for documentaries. These are things that people are, that other interviewers are going to reference when they sit down, you know, to have conversations with these individuals. Like, yo, I saw you on, you know, Codie Sanchez's show. I saw you on, Oh, you were on Breakfast Club with Charlamagne and you said this. So that's another way that I approach those conversations as well.

That's interesting. You seem pretty obsessed with what you do. Are you?

I think you gotta be.

Yeah.

I think you gotta be obsessed with whatever it is that you do to actually have success. If you're not obsessed about something, if you're not obsessed about being on these microphones, or if LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, God bless the day Kobe, if they're not obsessed with what they do on the basketball court, if you're a public servant, if you're not obsessed obsessed with doing the bidding of the people in the streets, right? If you're not obsessed with what it is that you do, then why are you doing it? That's why they call it a passion, that thing that you would do for free. Yes, I'm obsessed with communicating on these microphones 100% because I look at myself like a public servant. And because I know that I am serving the needs of the public every day, whether it's through making them laugh, whether it's through informing them, whether it's through having somebody body on that's going to say something beneficial to them, that's going to get them on a path of righteousness with spirituality, or decide to start going to therapy because we having conversations about mental health. Whatever it is, you got to be obsessed with what it is that you do.

How did you figure out what you were obsessed with, or how did you find this path? I think so many people, and a lot of people listening, they say that like, I don't know what I'm passionate about, or yeah, maybe I want to have a podcast, or is that just mimetic desire? How does somebody who's totally lost and not sure what they're obsessed in Is there a trick to find what you could become obsessed with?

Man, that is an amazing question. It's a layered question because I can only speak for me, right? When I started off, I was born in 1978, right? So I started doing radio back in 1998.

Gosh wee.

Right? I started off as an intern in Charleston, South Carolina at Z93 Jams in 1998. And the reason I even got there is because I was just trying to find something positive to do because of the way I was living in the street. And it's so funny that all of the things I would get in trouble for in school, being disruptive, talking too much, being the class clown, all of those things were actual qualities that when I got on the microphone helped me. Interesting. Right? So when I started off doing radio, Started off as an intern in 1998. I didn't get on the air until like 1999. I always gotta salute my guy Ron White. He texted me today and said, I think this is one of those times where you're ignoring me. Or got me on, got me, you set a boundary with me. And he's right. But salute to my guy Ron. But he's the first person to ever put me on air, right? 'Cause I was an intern, then I worked in the promotions department. So I would drive the van and put posters up and all of that stuff when the other, the actual talent was on doing their remotes. But then Ron was like, "Yo, have you ever thought about being on the air?" Right? And I'm like, "No, but what's up?" And so they started putting me on the air, and it was literally one of those things that I just knew this is what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. I remember the moment I was in the radio station doing overnights. Overnights is midnight to 6 in the morning, where it just hit me like, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. But I don't just want be a local radio personality, you know, doing the time and temperature, you know, in a city. I want to be a super jock. You know, the super jocks back then were the Tom Joyners, you know, and the Doug Banks, you know, God bless the dead. Salute to my guy, Russ Parr, you know what I mean? Howard Stern, Angie Martinez, Wendy Williams. Those are the people you thought about when you thought about like the super, super jocks. And that's what I wanted to be. And I, I knew that I wanted to be that since 1999. Wow. Oh, and I wanna add one more thing.

Get in there.

In my first book, Black Privilege: Opportunity Comes to Those Who Create It, New York Times bestseller.

Great book. I read it.

Thank you very much.

Of course.

I have a chapter called Fuck Your Dreams. And the reason I say fuck, it's Fuck Your Dreams is the name of the chapter, but the actual ideology is fuck your dreams if it's not your dream. A lot of times we see things working for other people and we say to ourselves, you know what, this is what I should be doing. But that's not what God has planned for you. Like God has something destined for you to unlock your greatness, but you gotta figure out what that is. Like you, it's not just 'cause you see everybody with a podcast don't mean that you should have a podcast. Just 'cause you see these people on radio having success doesn't mean that you should, you know, run to be a radio personality. Like, you know, you should, Even if you feel called to those spaces, number one, ask yourself why, right? What is your actual intention? If it's to, I wanna make money and I wanna be famous, that's not a real intention. What is your actual why to wanting to be in these spaces? And if you do feel called to be in these spaces, explore every aspect of this space. Like right now we're recording this podcast in this studio. Somebody had to set up these cameras, somebody had to set up these microphones, right? There's producers that are listening to us talk right now. There's all type of ways ways to be in this space, be in this business, and not be doing what you and I are doing right now. So, so that's what I would tell folks, you know, if you do feel called to certain spaces in certain areas, doesn't mean that you're supposed to be Codie, doesn't mean that you're supposed to be Charlamagne. Figure out what that means and why you're, why you're being called.

You know, you talked about wanting to be a super jock, and let's just call that like the greatest, one of the greatest of your profession. What do you think it takes to be the greatest in any profession? Like these days there's a lot of people that'll say work-life balance matters a Can you have work-life balance on your way up to greatness?

Yes. I might've answered that different some years ago, but yes, you can have work-life balance. I would actually tell people that, you know, in this profession, work-life balance is actually what's probably gonna make you have more success because for what we do, you know, on these microphones, being able to communicate life in a way that connects with people is what kind of makes people gravitate towards us. So you gotta live life in order to be able to do that, right? So when I'm, you know, like I just came back from Cape Town, you know, South Africa, and I was there throughout the whole holidays. And it's just interesting to watch people from other countries and how they gravitate towards somebody from another country just because they've been listening to them for so long. And one of the things that a lot of the people kept coming up to me saying was, "Thank you for embracing our continent the way that you do. Thank you for having—" They were naming different African talent that has been on the show, whether it's people like DeVito or Burna Boy, or me being friends with my homegirl DJ Cuppy, or Bonang. My man Casper. Casper. I'm gonna mispronounce his last name, so I'm just gonna say Casper. Y'all know who I'm talking about. But they were coming up to me because of the way that I connect with them and how I'm able to communicate my experience as a Black American appreciating what it is that they do and bringing them on my platform and having a conversation. So it's just, I think that, yeah, work-life balance matters. Like I'm able to go to South Africa and like experience that place for myself and then now come back to America and talk to my listeners who may never have been to South Africa. I've had the pleasure of going to Johannesburg and Cape Town, and that might make more people want to go to Cape Town and Johannesburg just listening to me communicate my experiences there. So yeah, I think you got to have work-life balance because you have to live life, right? And not even just in this profession, just in general. Like, yo, yeah, do yourself a favor and go live some life. You got 168 hours in a week. You know how much time that is? Like, 168 hours. You should have more than enough time to do what it is you gotta do as far as your living and your career is concerned, but also go out there and just have some time for yourself and your family.

You know what I think we should talk about that we talked about before? We were talking about time and I said a line like, "Ah, we ought to be done at this time." I worry about not respecting people and time. I'm married to a military man, so he really associates lateness or extension with disrespect, which is kind of like a military mentality. And so I was like, "Oh, I'm going to make sure we're out on time." And you had a really interesting take on a book you had read in two different types of time.

Yeah, it's this book that I love to read. It's called The Big Leap. I read it— you know, often, but it's written by Gay Hendricks, and he talks about Newtonian time and Einstein time. And Einstein time, if I'm saying it correctly, Einstein time is basically us realizing that we create time. Now, I do agree you should respect, you know, people's time, but when we say things like, "Oh, I don't have the time for that," yes, you do. You just don't want to do it, and you're using time as the scapegoat. And the example he uses is like, your kid might walk in and your kid might ask you to play, and you'd be like, "Oh, I don't have time for time for that right now. But if your kid walked in and your kid was, you know, cut and bleeding, you would stop everything and you would have the time to do whatever, you know, whatever it is to make your child stop bleeding, stop feeling that pain. And so it's just the way we look at, you know, what time is. Instead of treating time like it's something that's out of our control, or, you know, we're a victim to it. No, you have all the time that you create.

So do you not say the words, "I don't have time"? Do you replace it with something?

That's why I constantly read books, the same book over and over, right? I mean, when I'm really into a book, I read it over and over because you want to constantly try to practice these things that you are learning in that book. But yeah, there's no such thing as not having time. The other saying that we always say is, "You make time for what you want to make time for." So instead of saying, "I don't have time," I don't want to right now. Like, it's like somebody comes to me right now and is like, hey man, you know, I would really love if you would be at such and such, blah, blah, blah. You know, oh, you know what? Let me talk to my assistant so I can check my schedule and see if I can squeeze it. You don't really want to do it because things that you actually want to do, oh my God, I'm there. Like, yo, let's figure it out. Like, you know, then you hit your, that's when you hit your team and like, yo, this person wants me to do X, Y, and Z, be X, Y, and Z. Let's figure it out. And I think that's actually what it is. Instead of saying, "I don't have time," just be like, "I don't want to." That's my— yo, this year right here is all about the no. Wow. Like, that's really a boundary that I think that we are just afraid to set a lot. Like, we're afraid to tell people no because all of us are people pleasers, you know, in different ways. And we all want that validation from other humans. And we hate telling other humans no. Because we feel like if we tell them no, then they not going to look at us the same, or they not going to respect us the same, or they not going to speak of us in a positive way.

There is nothing wrong with telling somebody, "No, I don't want to right now." Well, it's good that you say that because I think if I was to just watch you on the internet, I might not think Charlamagne the people pleaser. That's probably not one of the things I would label you. And so I think people would say, "No, he probably sets pretty firm boundaries." boundaries. I bet he's really good at that. But is that even something that you've struggled with? Saying— Oh, absolutely.

I've been a people pleaser for a long time. And I mean, people pleasing doesn't always look like just allowing people to do whatever it is they want you to do. Sometimes people pleasing looks like being overly aggressive in an interview. You know what I'm saying? Bombarding somebody with questions because you're worried about about what the people watching are going to say about you. If you got a reputation, right, as this hard-hitting question asker, then you feel like you gotta ask the hard-hitting questions. That's people pleasing. If you're doing it because you're worried about how other people are going to take it, how other people are going to consider it, how other people are going to view it, that is people pleasing.

It's interesting because you've been at this game a long time and you've had I don't know, people hating on you for things. You've had people loving on you for things. You've had some of the same people who used to love you hate you for things multiple times. And so I'm curious to you, like, what do you do to stop caring about the haters? Like, what do you do when you're getting backlash? Everybody seems to be talking shit. Nobody likes you. How do you deal with that?

You just genuinely gotta not give a fuck. And I have two people in my life that gave me great pieces of advice that I always reference, even if at times I didn't always feel what they were saying. Like I didn't apply it, right? My man Cadillac Jack, who along with my guy G-Spin put together The Breakfast Club, Cadillac Jack told me early on in The Breakfast Club, I need you to remember the rule of 10. What's the rule of 10? The rule of 10 is 3 people gonna like you, 3 people not gonna like you, 4 people don't even know what the fuck's going on. And that is very true in life. Like, that is just the absolute truth. Like, you— we, we are so concerned about what everybody thinks, and we think everybody is paying attention to us. 4 people don't even know what the hell is going on. And then the 3 people that like you, they gonna like you no matter what. The 3 people that don't like you, they not gonna like you no matter what. But guess what? The algorithm don't know the difference. So when the 3 people that like you were talking about you, great. When the people that don't like you were talking about you, great. Wait, your name is just all throughout the algorithm. My daddy used to always say to me, you're never as good as they say you are, and you're never as bad as they say you are. That one I've always understood. I've always been like right in the middle with that. And I mean, that's really just life, right? Like, you have to be a very egotistical, narcissistic person to think that everybody likes you. And to think that everybody's thinking about you, right? Like, there is nobody on this planet, forget humans, there is nothing on this planet that everybody universally loves, not even God. Like, no, I want you to just think about that for a second. There is nothing, not even puppies, not ice cream, some of the purest things that you can think about, there is nothing on this planet that everybody universally loves. So for me, Hey man, I, I'm just happy I make you feel something. I really genuinely feel that. I, I, I make, I'm just happy I make you feel something. 'Cause I would rather be, you know, thought of in some way than to not be thought about at all.

This is a secret nobody shares. I've done thousands of deals, but until now I've never shared the most valuable 10% publicly because I wanna buy these businesses myself. Then I realized that if you guys buy the businesses, I get to do the deals with you. So this year at Main Street Millionaire Live, it is your chance to see our insider strategies. I'll teach you how we find, buy, and scale a business step by step with the frameworks that I literally use to buy all these businesses. So if you wanna go from an aspiring owner to someone actually running a profitable business, join me. I'll give you my blueprint. Then maybe we end up doing deals together. You had this conversation with 50 Cent, uh, before he put out the, the documentary. Mm-hmm. And you had like, You basically were prescient about what was happening in the world. And now, I mean, it's not really therapy for 50, but watching him hold this level of revenge is— Am I a sick person that I watch it and the memes that are like, I aspire to have this level of revenge that 50 Cent has?

Yeah. I mean— 50 is a Cancer. I'm a Cancer. I understand 50's level of petty. You do? I completely understand 50's level of petty. Plus I'm privy to like a lot of the whole backstory between him and somebody like Diddy. So I get it. Like people, and it's funny, I've been having, it's so, 50's such an interesting person to me. And I've been having these conversations about 50 for years. I remember it started with, I remember a long time ago, a couple of, Executives in the business was talking to me about 50, and they was like, "Why does he always gotta go after Urban Ja?" "Why can't he just finally—" God bless the dead. "Why can't he just let it go?" I'm like, he got shot 9 times. They've had fist fights. He got stabbed by them. Like, you wouldn't really let that go either. Like, yeah, that's not something you could just— I don't even think a therapist could tell you just to let that go. And they were like, you know what, you right. You know what I'm saying? So there's always, and I remember 50 Cent said this one time, 50 was like, people always see when I punch, but they don't see when the person swung at me first. You know what I mean? And I'm not saying that, you know, T, I'm not saying everything, you know, he does is justified, 'cause I really don't know. But from the things that I've seen, I get it. I completely understand it. And that's why you gotta just be very, don't offend the wrong person. True. Yeah, that's one of the 40 laws of power. Do not offend the wrong person 'cause you might have an enemy for life.

I would never wanna, like 50, just cut the podcast, edit it out.

And honestly, man, sometimes that's it. That, man, that is therapeutic within itself. Yeah. Like just saying, fuck a person. I don't fuck with you. Like who says we have to fuck with people? Yeah, I know. Like who says that? Like who, we talk about that statement, money is the root of all evil. Who told us that we gotta forgive everybody? Who told us that, you know, we gotta love everybody? Like who said that? Like nah, sometimes it's fuck this person and it's fuck this person for life and I don't fuck with them. And people be like, man, you exhausting too much energy on that person. Individual. Says who? Yeah. And what if I want to exhaust this energy on this individual? Like, what if I want, you know, to do exactly what it is that I'm doing and it makes me happy to do it? Who am I to tell that person that they're wrong? And, and by the way, whatever energy comes back to you from doing that, he got to deal with that. And I think he's fully aware Yeah. I think he's fully aware of it and it does not bother him in any way, shape, or form. And there's a certain level of freedom that I admire.

Yeah. It is. That smile when he does.

It's a certain— And by the way, I've had these conversations with him, like, you know. Have you? On air, off air, because I've been there. He's one of the most interesting, you know, people to me just because he's a Cancer and there's a lot of things that I relate to. But—

And he seems like a smart motherfucker. Oh, he's brilliant.

You don't come outta South Side, Jamaica, Queens, and achieved the things that he's achieved, you know, achieved things, lost things, got 'em back triple. And yo, not even having success in multiple industries. That's what he don't get enough credit for. Yeah, he did his thing in music, but he went from an artist, started his own label, had successful artists under his label. Like, I'm just another, I'm glad we're having this conversation as well. But he's another person that I really look at, you know, as a blueprint because that's what you're supposed to do. And I remember, and he says things that I remember, he said, I'm a general with G-Unit, but I'm a soldier when I'm with Eminem and Dr. Dre. That right there is a jewel because I hate when people say things like, yeah, but you work for a corporation. And I also own a lot of things on my as well. So what's the problem? You can do both. And to watch him go from a talent, right? To start his own record label, to having 4 or 5 successful artists, then having success with clothing, having success with his sneaker, then now in television and film. Do you know how hard that is? I cannot imagine. This guy has multiple franchises of various TV shows. Yeah. And he lost it.

That's the part that I think, like, coming back, like the mental fortitude to lose it, to be in bankruptcy, Like, you can make it. You can make it. Absolutely. But to lose it and get it back.

And to get it back. Oof. Yeah. And to remain himself throughout it all. Yeah. I actually think sometimes he does that just to remind himself, I'm still me. Let me go. Let me jump. I be feeling that sometimes. Like, you know, yeah, let me, yeah. Let me find somebody to really go at it with right now just to remind myself I'm still me. Like, I don't know. But I got a lot of respect and admiration for kids.

I'm gonna clip this out every time somebody talks shit. I'm gonna re-listen to you and I'm gonna remember this.

But listen, don't listen to me though, 'cause I'm a Cancer and I'm still dealing with my own stuff too.

But I can't hold revenge. I think it's a little healthy to be able to keep like a little bit of that edge.

Yeah. And I like anti-heroes.

Oh yeah.

That's my thing too. I like anti— Do you have one?

Do you have like a bitty? Like 50 has one? Um, do you have one? You're like, yeah, fuck that guy right now. I won't say his name, but damn.

Yeah, but I already won. Oh shoot. Yeah, I didn't won several. I, I've had a few, but I've won. I got— so it's like, it's, it's not the same, you know? I mean, there's nobody I really want to like, uh, stomp on them. Why they— I don't— and probably, you know what, probably I've never had one to that level. I probably never had one to that level. I've had— I've never had nobody try to like physically, like, well, you know, I'm lying. I have had people send people to physically harm me, but it's something like a punch in the face, like, you know what I mean? It's not like a shooting or a stabbing or anything like that. So yeah, but when I say I like anti-heroes, I like the Batmans of the world. I like the, you know, Tony Starks, the Deadpools, the Wolverines, you know what I mean? I like those type of anti-heroes. I'm the guy that, you know, I would, I root for the villain in movies sometimes, you know? And to me, like, 50 is the ultimate hip-hop anti-hero. What about you?

You know, you've been doing Breakfast Club for many years now. 15. You've been online for— how long have you been online before Breakfast Club? I'm gonna tell everybody how old you are, basically.

No, no, let me see. I mean, well, there's two different types. I'm old enough to remember that there's two different types of online, right? What was the first type? 'Cause there was the MySpaces. Oh, fuck, I remember that.

You know what else? Yeah, like the square people on your dial-up set. That's right. Uh-huh.

Hot Spaces, there was the Black Planets, but those weren't necessarily social media. Like you might be in a forum or a chat room, a chat, I forgot what they used to call them, chat rooms or something back then. But yeah, I remember Twitter. I remember when I got on Twitter so early, I didn't even know that people replied to you. I remember when somebody said, you gotta check your @s. I think it might've been Lil Duval or somebody I was talking to. And I'm like, I don't really like Twitter, man. You just be on there, like you just be on there talking to yourself. And he was like, "What do you mean you be on there talking to yourself?" I'm like, "I post stuff, but it's just there." And he was like, "Man, you gotta check your @s." I'm like, "The @s?" And then that's when you clicked on your @s and you started seeing everybody @ing you and you like, "Oh." Then you're like, "I wish I never knew that existed." That's how I feel about it some days. I stopped going on Twitter in like 2018, 2019. But we got on, I think I got on Twitter in like, oh, '07, '08 maybe. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, that place is a little wild.

Oh, it's not good for my mental health in no way, shape, or form. But you gotta know that though. So we're all in verbally abusive relationships with our smartphones. Why would you go to a place where somebody's constantly telling you that you ain't shit? If you were married to a person like that, you wouldn't stick around in that relationship. If you were at a job and you had a boss talking to you like that, I don't think you would stick around in that relationship. So why do we do that with social media. Forget just the block features and the unfollowing folks. I'd rather not even go over there. I'm a stern believer in if somebody be like, "Hey man, why don't you come over to the house? We having this party, we having a cookout." Who all over there? If they say the wrong people in the wrong energy, you not going. So why do we take our monkey asses over to social media, especially Twitter? I have no place I have no desire to be over there. That's really smart. A little social cleanse. I have not been on there since 2018. What about—

you've probably changed a lot since 2018. I imagine 15 years online, are there some things that you have said before, back in the day, you're like, "This is true.

I believe it with all of my being." And now, "Fuck, I was wrong." I remember talking to Malcolm Gladwell one time, and Malcolm Gladwell said to me, "There's a lot of things that I wrote in books like this." The Outliers, that I don't necessarily believe anymore. Interesting. And I was like, oh my God. Like, that kind of threw me for a loop. But then I had to think to myself, like, just because he wrote it in that book and he has maybe evolved and learned a lot more information and it's taken him someplace else doesn't mean that somebody else isn't going to pick up that book right now and it's going to meet them where they are.

Do you think about your books that way? Like, when I was going back through and I hadn't read One, I didn't realize you had multiple books. Mm-hmm. 3. I know. When I went back and I was reading, so I had read Black Privilege and then when I went through and I was looking at Get Honest or Die Lyin'. Yep.

That's my last one. My third one.

Yep. I didn't realize that you had such a focus on mental health. And I don't know why. I guess I had seen Breakfast Club and I'd thought of your persona a lot there. But I like asking you these questions because when I think about the person who's listening I'm always thinking about them maybe a little less than the guest. Like, what does Charlamagne have that I feel like every human listening is just gonna like, it's gonna blow their mind this week and it's gonna help their life somehow? And that's kind of how I think about you. It's like you have this amazing career, but it's mostly like, what do you got that they need? And when I think about your career in particular, there's a couple ways I want to go with it that I think could be really helpful with people. One, conversations, we're having less of them. You have them deeply. And even with people you don't, well, I don't know if you don't like them or not, but maybe you don't agree with everything. Maybe you sometimes don't like them. And I guess one of the questions I have for you is what do you do when you have a conversation with somebody you don't like or agree with?

You just agree to disagree. I don't think, I don't know if there's too many people I've had conversations with who I don't like because I don't know them personally not to like them. Yeah. I may not like their ideologies. I may not like some of their worldviews, but I don't know them personally to not like them. And I mean, that's what conversation is for. And just because you have a conversation with a person doesn't mean you're gonna end up liking them at the end of the conversation. But I feel like as human beings, we should respect each other enough to discuss. And even if we discuss and debate and argue, and we might even get to yelling in an interview, but I think that's just what happens when you are having a real healthy, honest conversation with somebody. So I think this is our job. I'm a radio personality, I'm a podcaster, I'm a media personality, just like you're a media personality. If I choose to invite you into my space and have a conversation with you, it is ridiculous to just then say, you know what, I'm going to slam dunk on this person. I've been fighting this person in my space just to slam dunk on them. If you get dunked on in the midst of the conversation, then that's different. But I invited you for a conversation. So have the conversation and see where it goes.

Do you get a lot of comments online like, "Why are you having this person on?" All the time. All the time. What do you say to the people who won't have a conversation with somebody? What if somebody's listening right now and this happens around the holidays, probably good timing for it. They're like, "I'm not fucking going home because Aunt Becky loves insert one political party." and I don't want to talk to him.

I think that's the most ridiculous thing in the world. And the reason I think that's the most ridiculous thing in the world, because, you know, politics are very fleeting, right? In the next few years, hopefully, right, if we still have free and fair elections, they'll be electing, you know, somebody else, and there'll be a lot of damage done because of the current administration, but the way people felt will kind of be a thing of the past, right? Maybe. You know, I mean, you know, Maya Angelou said that, you know, people will forget what you did, they'll forget what you said, they'll never forget how you made them feel. So, so maybe people will forget about it, but man, I've been alive long enough to have seen how this goes, you know, before. And I mean, this is, this, that's your family member. Don't blame who's in the White House on you not wanting to talk to your family member. You never liked this person to begin with. Like, cut it out. Like, because if you could just— if you could just cut me off or cut somebody off based on who they voted for, you never really liked that person. This goes back to what we were saying about time. Don't blame time for you not wanting to do something. You don't like this individual. You never really did. And now you feel like you got a valid excuse to not talk to that person anymore. And I feel like when it comes to just us as media personalities, listen, I've seen media personalities say, I don't know why Charlamagne talks to these kind of people, or why The Breakfast Club talks to these kind of people. They don't say that to anybody else but us. They don't say that to Jake Tapper, right? Historically, they didn't say that to people like Diane Sawyer, Barbara Walters, Oprah Winfrey. I grew up in the era of, of watching Donahue have the Grand Wizard of the KKK on. Yeah. Right? And I grew up in the era of Donahue would host us, not just Donahue, I mean everybody would talk to people that they didn't necessarily agree with. Right? Nobody said anything back then. So why is it such a thing now? And I would tell all of these media personalities, when you say things like, man, Man, I would've never done that. That's why you not me. That's just the reality of the situation. That's why you're not me. So don't ask yourself why you don't get the things that I get, you know, per se. Yeah. Because you don't do the things that I do. I have no problem sitting down having conversations with people that I may not agree with, but that's just because of the great personalities that I saw before me. They were doing the same thing. I used to, man, they used to do specials where they would go talk to Charles Manson while he was in prison. They talked to Jeffrey Dahmer, he ate people. Like, and you're not gonna talk to somebody just 'cause they got a different political— A Republican. A Republican? That's crazy. That is, that's crazy to me. I'm also old enough to remember when people hated guys like George W. Bush. Now everybody loves George, but they love watching George Bush with Michelle Obama and it's always so cute. Such a great relationship. I remember when y'all were calling George Bush the Antichrist. Oh, it's true.

Or if you go back to history, Democrats were actually Republicans, Republicans were actually Democrats, the whole party, they've changed back and forth.

They had different ideologies at the time though.

Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's kind of wild to see what used to be a Democrat today was a Republican at one point and same and vice versa. It's like we put these hard lines on it, but it's a really interesting point because you're right. I actually went to journalism school. I always wanted to be a journalist. I ended up in business and finance for all these other reasons. I guess we've come back. But I used to love Walter Cronkite for that reason.

Yeah. I mean, there was a time where you would want to get that interview. Like, yo, we saw freaking Barbara Walters went and spoke to Fidel Castro. Like, those were the type of things that we constantly saw the greats do. So who are we to be like, nah, I'm not going to do that. Nah, that's— So if not you, who? And why not talk to that person and ask that person the questions that, you know, the world may, may want to know. Yeah.

I wanna talk a little bit about like the business side for a second. One, congratulations. Amazing news recently on a huge deal you did. That's so cool. Thank you.

Resigned with iHeart, iHeartMedia. Yeah. Yeah.

And, and I think like not even to get into details on that, but like it's really cool to see. To see somebody do an incredible deal and do a re-signing and have it go really public and have it be in this new age of media, you know, which is, I think typically deals like that, you had to be with CNN or CNBC or some huge network. And now this is kind of you, you know, this is, you could move Breakfast Club, Charlamagne, anywhere and you're the network now. So it's really cool to see. Congratulations.

Yeah. And I mean, even salute to iHeart, you know, I've been with iHeart for 15 years, you know, started off as a talent. Client, then became a partner when I created the Black Effect Podcast Network, which is by far the largest podcast network for Black podcasts. I think right now we got like 50 to 60 podcasts where, but we wanted to create a space that was specifically for Black podcasters because that didn't exist. Like, you know, I'm the type of person, I like to look around the marketplace and see what's missing from the marketplace. And that was something that was missing to me. Yeah. I loved what Bill Simmons was doing With the Ringer, you know, I loved, you know, watching what they were doing with Smartless. I watched, you know, loved watching what they were doing with Gimlet. But I saw a lot of these Black creators who were doing two things, right? They were putting their podcast out, but it was like video first. So their videos were getting like tremendous views, but the audio wasn't necessarily reflecting that. Yeah, that's hard to grow. We all know that the money is in the audio. Yeah. So I was like, man, you know, what if we created this this network, you know, got these individuals who already have these, you know, podcasts, put us, you know, all under one umbrella and use iHeart sales team to really, really pump their audio. 'Cause iHeart is the biggest, you know, conglomerate when it comes to audio. Nobody does audio better than iHeart. I'm not saying that because I work with them. I'm saying that because it's the truth, right? So radio, podcasting, nobody does audio better than iHeart. And man, if I could show y'all the data of some of these podcasts who had these big video numbers, but the audio numbers weren't necessarily matching the video and how when they partnered with Black Effect and iHeart, how we were able to get those audio numbers booming to the point where we're at like 11 million, 12 million audio downloads a month. Wow. And that makes, you know, Black Effect, you know, one of the biggest podcast networks out there. Like that's very rare air to be you know, have a network getting 11 million, 12 million audio downloads a month. And, you know, things like that is what makes you a lot more valuable to, you know, whatever company you're with.

What's interesting, I kind of want to talk about that for a second. I don't know about you, but like I had a long period and I'm trying to, I'm thinking through it right now, but where I'm Latina, I'm a chick, and it always bothered me when somebody would reach out to me and say like, like, "Hey, we want to talk to you. You're a female CEO. We'd love to have a female CEO come speak about XYZ," or like, "You're a Latina CEO, come speak." And I kind of would be like, one, if it was female CEO, I'd be like, "I don't know what my vagina has to do with it. I'm just in charge of this business and I happen to have that anatomy." And I remember I did write that in one email and then one of my execs was like, "Maybe we I could not do that. But I kind of like took it personal. I had a little chip on my shoulder. Maybe I have less of one now, but I'm curious for you, like when people say like, Charlamagne, Black CEO, come speak. Like, are you like, yeah, fuck yeah. 'Cause I represent all these people. Are you like, who cares? I'm a CEO. I just happen to be Black. Like, how do you think about that?

That's a great question. I don't, when I pull up to Chick-fil-A, it don't bother me that, you know, they specialize in chicken sandwiches. I'm pulling up to Chick-fil-A 'cause they specialize in chicken sandwiches. Or if I want to go to pizza, if I want pizza that night, I'm not going to go to a burger spot. You know what I'm saying? So it's just like, for me, it don't bother me 'cause we are unicorns because we can't sit here and act like we don't understand the country that we live in. We live in the country called America. America is a country that was founded on white supremacy. Just call it what it is. Right? What people think of when they think of America. That's what they've always presented to us, right? Like a white man. So I don't have a problem being a quote unquote unicorn in this space. If you are a, you know, woman CEO who's done great things, hey, sadly we live in a country that doesn't think women can do amazing things. Like this is a country that, you know, just gave women the right to vote in our lifetime, right? So you know how they kind of already perceive women. So when they look at you as a woman CEO, They're looking at you like, damn, I can't believe she did all that. I can't believe she got that done. Why? Because you're a woman. Same thing with a Black person. Wow, I can't believe that a Black person could achieve those kind of things because of all of the things that this country has thrown at us historically. So things like that do not bother me. If you want me to come out here and be the bearded woman at the circus, I don't have no problem with that because I feel like by the time I sit down with you, and have a conversation, you're going to say to yourself, I understand why that person is in the position that they're in. Yeah. You know, it's interesting.

I think culture and race are— I don't think about it as much now because I'm like a little bit of a spreadsheet nerd. But, you know, as I've gotten on the internet more and then people, of course, they notice you like, yeah, he's Black and yeah, she's a chick. I'm like, okay, yeah, I guess that's part of the equation. Yeah.

But you've stayed novice. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

I'm like, all right. But then I realized, man, actually there was a bunch of stuff when I was growing up that we didn't actually do that I think hurt us monetarily and hurt, and by us, I guess I mean women or Latinos in this instance. When I was growing up, you know how they say you don't talk about sex, religion, politics? Politics, yep. For Latinos, religion's cool. Jesus is all around. Everybody could talk about Jesus, but you don't talk about sex. You don't talk about politics. You don't talk about money. Money's like, nobody talks about that as a Latino. And I think for that reason, it was harder for me to make money growing up, you know? Because I was like, no, we don't talk about it. It's not good. It's private. Rich people kind of suck because you had to be bad to get it. And so I had all these ingrained narratives. And I'm curious, in Black culture, is it similar at all? Can you talk about money in the same way? Are there things that hold Black people back monetarily that you're like, why the fuck do we do that? And don't do that anymore.

You know, that's a great question. I don't like to answer questions on behalf of the whole Black race because Black people are not monolithic. And there's a lot of Black people who don't like me, so I don't want them to think that I'm speaking for them. But from my perspective, yeah, a lot of conversations like financial literacy did not happen in the Black community, at least in my community. I don't want to say in the Black community, at least in my circumference. My father was definitely an entrepreneur, right? My father, he owned a fish market. It when I was young. So I would be there hanging out, you know, working. My father also did construction. So he was an entrepreneur, even though he did work for a construction company for a period of time. But for the most part, you know, all the money he made was, you know, doing things independently. So that was always kind of my mindset. But nobody taught me about, you know, taxes and, you know, you know, high yield savings accounts and stocks. Like I didn't learn about any of that stuff till I got into my Late 30s, early 40s. I think the not talking about money thing is interesting though, because of course none of us wanted to be broke, right? That's what led guys like me to start selling dope, right? Because you don't want to be broke, but money was never my motivation ever. A lot of the times, even when I started selling dope, I was just doing that because the people around me were doing it., and you would get clowned for being broke, but I never needed money to really get anything that y'all got. A lot of times these guys are trying to get money to impress women and things like that. I wasn't the best looking, but I could hold a really good conversation. I could make you laugh. Like, you know what I mean? The girls that y'all was I was trying to get, I was getting just being my natural broke self, right? So it's like money was never my motivation. What was my motivation was wanting to realize my full potential as a person on this planet.

Even when you were younger, you were never scared about being broke or not having money. That wasn't part of your equation. Were you religious when you were young?

Yeah, I grew up, my mother was a Jehovah's Witness. My mother was a Jehovah's Witness. My grandmother was a Baptist. My father was a Jehovah's Witness too till he got this fellowship. And then, you know, he started studying Islam. So I was getting hit from all different angles. I had my grandmother who was a Baptist, my mother was a Jehovah's Witness. So, you know, my father who was studying Islam. So I was reading Watchtower, Awakes, the autobiography of Malcolm X. Like I was, I had it all, but there was different things that motivated me to want to be successful. Like when I heard Biggie Smalls say, being broke at 30, give a brother the chills, like, right? Or when TLC made No scrubs. I don't want no scrub. A scrub is a guy sitting in his best friend's ride on the passenger side trying to holla at me. When Outkast and Goody Mob made, "I Want to Get Up," you need to get up, get out, and get something. Don't let the days of your life pass by. You need to get up, get out, and get something. Don't spend all your days getting high, 'cause you and I got to do for you and I. When you hear that, that's not necessarily about money. That's just about brothers. To get up and do something with your life, figure it out. And even back then, man, I had no problem. I thought about going in the military. There was a time I wanted to work at UPS 'cause I had an uncle who worked at UPS. And same thing with the military. I had my mother's first cousin, his name was Bruce, he was in the military. So I was just looking at all of these different things that could potentially get me off this dirt road in Moncks Corner, South Carolina. It wasn't necessarily always, is entertainment. I had no problem living what people call the so-called American dream. You just figure out something that can make you some money to be able to afford a nice place to stay, have some food on the table, and if you want to have a family one day, you can do that. But it wasn't necessarily, I want to be rich, I want to be famous, I want to be this multimillionaire. It wasn't necessarily that. I just wanted to not the life that God gave me on this planet. Yeah, it's true.

You have talked a lot about God on your podcast, in your books, here. What is your relationship with God? And like, how do you use that in your day-to-day?

Man, I'm only sitting here because of God. You know, whatever you want to call him, Jehovah, Allah, Jesus Christ. Like, I'm literally in this position that I'm in right now because from the time that I can remember, from day one, there was a higher power guiding me. I know we talk about these, we talk about having like praying grandmothers and praying mothers. I really, really had that. Like, I was a kid going to field service every Saturday morning, right? So, you know, as long as I can remember, I've been a praying person. And not just, you know, praying, like praying and asking God for guidance and direction and like literally feeling that presence of a higher power with me. That higher power literally guiding me and directing me and telling me to go do X, Y, and Z, go do this, go do that, like literally. And it was the times where I didn't listen to that voice the way I should have that caused so-called negative things to happen to me. And the reason I say so-called negative things is because I feel like everything is just a part of this process called life, right? The so-called good, the so-called bad, everything that happens to you while we're living this thing called life is just part of the process that led you and I to both be sitting here, you know, in this moment. But I just feel like the whole way through, it's just been God. And I mean, I remember last year I said, I said to God, I was praying, meditating, and I said to God, I said, God, I am ready for every single thing you have planned for me on this planet. I said, I want it all. And, and I know people might hear that and they might think, you know, monetary things are just the good things that come with success. No, I want to experience every single thing that God wants me to experience on this planet because I truly believe that. I truly believe that, you know, things don't happen to you, they happen for you. So I don't care what it is, I I take good news, so-called good news, the same way I take so-called bad news because it's just like, all right, well, what God got planned for me next? Even today, you might get some news from a business perspective and you like, hmm, I didn't want that to happen, but God clearly has something else planned. So I'm open for it. So interesting.

I have this line. I guess I was raised similar to you. I was raised with a lot of religious influence. It didn't permeate, or it did negatively at some point, and I felt like I had to break that. I became sort of agnostic, atheist, then I came back to faith. But there's a line that I always think of by this— she was actually a feminist back in the day, Emma Bombeck, and she has this line that I love, which is she says, When I stand before God at the end of my days, I hope to be able to say, "I have not one drop left. I used every single thing that you gave me." Yes. Yes. And every time I'm struggling, I think about that. Yes. And I was wondering for you, you're such a man of— you read multiple books a week and many a month, and you're such a man— like, you remember all these quotes. Are there quotes that you live by that you like when your faith is struggling that you repeat in your head?

Yeah. I got, uh, two, and these are ones that I actually made up, you know. Um, and I, I deal with really bad panic attacks, right? Like, I've got, I've got a handle on them, you know, in my more recent years. But like, when I was young, I used to deal with like these really severe panic attacks. And when I didn't know what they were, when I didn't know that I was having actual panic attacks, I would always repeat this mantra. I would say, I love Jehovah God and his son Jesus Christ. I love Jehovah God and his son Jesus Christ. I love Jehovah God and his son Jesus Fuck Satan, fuck Satan, fuck Satan. So I would say, I love Jehovah God and his son Jesus Christ 3 times. And I would say, fuck Satan 3 times. And the reason I would do that is because, you know, when you read in the Bible in the book of Job, you know, Job's wife kept telling Job, hey, curse God and die, right? Why don't you just curse God and die? So I used to always be like, why would I curse God? Like, I'm not gonna ever curse God and die. So let me just curse Satan. 'Cause I feel like this, what I now know to be anxiety, this panic attack is him. So I would say, I love Jehovah God and his son Jesus Christ, Fuck Satan. And yo, I can't even front, it would bring me back to center in a real way. I mean, now when you, you know, I've done a lot more work on myself, so I do meditation and things like that. So I understand mantras, right? Like you understand the mantra when you're counting your beads, when you're meditating, you understand how that can bring you back to center. I was doing that back then and didn't even know it. And my other motto that I always say is I always say, yo, keep God first, stay humble, keep working. Anything that happens in my life, I say keep God first, stay humble, keep working. And I'm glad we're having this conversation because one thing I've realized over the last few weeks, 'cause we're taping this like the first week of January, right? Yeah. I've watched a lot of people, like when certain things happen, like you just talked about my new deal with iHeart, I've watched a lot of people people have conversations about that. And man, it really makes me realize how much people don't believe in God and hard work. Yeah. Is that true? Because anytime you get to a certain level of success, they think that you had to get there by some nefarious means. They think that you gotta be in the Illuminati, you know, you busting it open on the casting couch. Men and women, by the way. It ain't just women that they think. It ain't just women they think is busting it open on the casting couch. Couch. Men and women, they think it's busting it open on the casting couch. And it just makes me realize how many people don't believe in God and hard work. Because if you believed in God and hard work, you wouldn't look at somebody else and just say, they only got that because they did some bullshit. You would say, man, you know, I've been watching that person for decades now. I've been doing radio for 28 years, like literally 28 years. Even if you don't count South Carolina, if you've been watching me from the time I started with Wendy It's been 20 years. You've been watching that person for 20 years. You've literally watched that person grow. You watched them evolve. You watched ups, you've watched downs, you've watched them go through fire. You've watched all of these different things. But the one thing you can't say is that person wasn't consistent and that person wasn't working hard. And then when that person, you know, achieve something, you wanna attribute it, you wanna give the devil credit for that. Yeah. Right. You wanna get, well, you don't wanna give God and hard work, any credit whatsoever. So what happens when you achieve a tremendous level of success? Should we just say, oh, that person only got that because of Satan? That person only got that because they were busting it open on the Catholic couch? I don't even think people understand the narratives they create that will eventually come back and bite them in the ass as well. So yes, I give God all praises, and I am only here because God has been guiding me all of these years.

It's so true. I remember one of my early mentors said to me, "If you hate rich people, then how do you think you're ever going to be rich?" And I never hated. I'm not really a hateful kind of person. Sometimes I wish. Sierra was here the other week on a podcast. I was like, "What do you do when you have a hater?" And she's a woman of faith. She's incredible. I've really come to respect her a lot. And she had such a good line. She's like, "I give it up to God. I don't worry about it." But she's I'd be keeping receipts though. And she's like, I'd be keeping some names. And I was like, I love that line. I remember, forgive, I'll remember though. But I think what happens with a lot of us is like, isn't it weird how we're wired from being young? Sometimes I'll be on a stage in a business thing and I'll say to the audience, blank is the root of all evil. What's the root of all evil? And they'll just respond. Money. Yeah. When did we learn that? It's not actually that in the Bible. It is the love of money is the root of all evil. But like, how are we programmed to think that? And so that's when I start realizing maybe it's not always their fault. Like, the people who hate on you with this iHeartMedia deal, I almost— it hurts my heart a little bit. I'm like, I know right where you are. It's that you still think that money is the root of all evil, and you've never questioned why that programming is in your brain. And you don't know where it came from.

Oh, I know. I mean, I know where it came from. Where do you think it came from? It came from being broke. Yeah. Like when you, when you, when you broke, you're going to be disgruntled. When you're broke, you're going to be upset about that. And you're going to say things like money is the root of all evil. People will say things to justify why they're not in the position that they want to be in. But man, I'm beyond, I know this gonna sound crazy. I genuinely, truly, I don't care about money. I care about being happy. I tell folks all the time, man, what is success? Success is you're doing whatever it is that you want to do and it makes you happy. Yeah. I know people right now that, you know, are making tens of millions of dollars and they hate their jobs or they hate, you know, what it is that they're doing. So is Is that actually success? I know people who are in South Carolina right now making $75,000 a year, $100,000 a year, but they got a roof over their head. They got food on the table. They could take a vacation every now and then when they want to, and they are genuinely happy. Yep. Success should be rooted in happiness, not in a, a monetary amount of, you know, like this should just be rooted in, are you happy doing what it is that you're doing? I am happy doing what it is that I'm doing. I love what it is that I do. I like, I love waking up in the morning to go do morning radio. This is literally what I used to pray for and what I used to dream about when I was in Charleston, South Carolina at Z93 Jams in 1999. I was praying for times like this. I wanted to be the super jock. You heard the people I named prior, the Tom Joyners, the Doug Bakes. Those were the nationally syndicated, radio personalities that a whole generation was listening to. I love being in the middle of one of my unanswered prayers. So there's no dollar amount that can make me any more happier than I already have been. I'm in the Radio Hall of Fame. I'm literally in the Radio Hall of Fame. I've been successful and happy. Me, not because of any money, but because I chose to do something and, you know, God allowed me the wherewithal and the skill to navigate my way to that point.

So one of the things that actually brought me back to you online is you had this post about the trades and you were talking about— The trades? Yeah. Like plumbing, HVAC, and blue collar. Oh, yes. Got you. Got you. I was like, "Oh, man. I totally agree." You were basically saying, I think, in so many words, blue-collar jobs are just as important and powerful as white-collar jobs.

More important.

There you go. I want to talk about this with you. What do you think about university versus trade school? What do you think about blue-collar versus white-collar? What would you say to a lot of my audience is a lot of blue-collar people who are working their way up? Like, gimme your take.

I think number one, you should do whatever it is that you're called to do. But I do think that sometimes we love to push people to what we think is the new trendy thing, right? Right now it's AI, you know, prior to that it was like, you know, just social media and the internet in general, right? Like you gotta learn how to code and all of these different things. Sure. You know, I do agree with that, but Man, the more things change, the more they stay the same. You still gonna need somebody to come through this building and install the plumbing. You still gonna need somebody to come through this building and install the HVAC. This building is going to need electricians, right? You're going to need those people with those skill sets. So I think what the future should look like is people who decide they want to go to trade school and then using some of this new technology to make their jobs easier. It's the, the next generation of millionaires and, you know, uh, tens of millionaires, maybe even billionaires, are going to come from people who know how to merge the two, the two worlds. Um, I was funny, I was having a conversation with one of my guys about this, and, you know, they were like, why you, why you always be telling people to go to trade school? You know, trade school, those are the, those are the Black jobs that, that Donald Trump was talking about. I'm like, those are the jobs that pay green. Yeah. Like, like, it's like, it's no, there's no, that's not a Black job. Like, we are not in this room right now without anybody who understands how to do things with their hands. Like every single piece of equipment in this room, the lighting, everything, the bathroom I used earlier was because of a blue collar worker. We can't exist without them. They make the world go around. So yeah, I do encourage, you know, a lot of people to go to trade school because everybody don't necessarily wanna go to, go to a university and get a degree. And I don't have a problem with that either. Some people want to go to trade school and do that for a couple of years and come home and start making money immediately. I got friends and family members back home in South Carolina who've been installing HVAC and doing electrical work for 30 years. Ain't missed a meal, ain't missing no paycheck. They not complaining about You know, recessions, nothing. They are making their money. Lawn care services. Like there is so many, you know, blue collar jobs that people are making six figures on right now.

And you actually, from what I understand, you have an endowment or you help with education as well in South Carolina. Yeah.

I have a, my mother went to South Carolina State University. I have an honorary degree from South Carolina State University. And I started this endowment fund called the Ford Family Scholarship. And so to, you know, a woman I call another mother of mine, her name is Nicole Brevard. You know, she was somebody who was instrumental in, you know, me even, you know, starting that scholarship fund at South Carolina State University. And it is for people who want to major in communications, of course, because I'm a media personality, English, because my mother's an English teacher. Or anything in the mental health profession. And I'm working on something right now that I think is going to really benefit people as far as like trade school is concerned. Cause I want to give people incentive, you know, to go to trade school. And a lot of people can't afford trade school either. So it's like, you know, let's help some of those brothers and sisters who want to, you know, go to trade school as well. And I'm just, I'm called right now to salute I wanna salute a young lady named Jordan. Jordan the Welder is her name on Instagram. The reason I'm saluting her is because she's like a Breakfast Club super listener. Like she supports us in everything that we do. Like, you know, I do the Black Effect Podcast Festival in Atlanta, you know, every year. I think we're on our like our third or fourth year and she always comes to it, but she's a welder. And I just find her fascinating because she lives a great life. She's married, right? And she's a welder and she makes a great living. Like I said, she comes and supports us. Help us at everything that we do. And she's a welder. So it's like, we don't always have to run to entertainment or athletics to live a good life. No.

In fact, there's way more people that are plumbers making $100K than podcasters, which is a crazy thing to think about.

Yes. And we need them.

Like order of magnitude.

Listen, we need them. Like I hate, man, that's why I always say treat the CEO the same way you treat the custodian. Custodian. Yeah. Because the reality is, in a lot of ways, the custodian is more important or just as important. Could you work in a building that was disgusting? No, absolutely not. You understand what I'm saying?

Yeah, you heard me. I was like, I heard a bit of noise back, back. You see what I'm saying?

If you knew that the bathrooms in this building was disgusting, you might not ever come here ever again. Yeah. So that's why people like the custodians and stuff are important because they make our lives so much easier. So we got to constantly find ways to make their us easier as well. Oh, it's so true.

One of my favorite people, I open the book with him, is this guy Wayne Huizenga. I'm really bummed that he died before I got to meet him, but he was a—

God bless the dead.

Yeah, he was a garbage man. That's how he started. He was a dropout from college. He went to the military. He became a garbage man driving a truck. Then he figured out, well, maybe I could buy one truck and I could start my little route. And that route turned into Waste Management, which became a multi-billion-dollar business, and then Blockbuster that he started and sold before it went sideways, and then owned a bunch of sports teams. What? Garbage dude. And so it's like all around us, I think the problem, the lie that we were told is that you have to stay the garbage man when you start as the garbage man. It's like, yes, start cleaning the toilets. That's sick. But then how much easier is it to climb the ladder from the guy who did the cleaning to the next rung, to the next rung, to the next rung if you're competent and then own the motherfucker?

That's right. I'm on board. And by the way, even if you don't want to do that, that's cool too. Yeah, that's true. But like I said, there's parking attendants that I look forward to seeing every day. 'Cause when I see 'em, they screaming my name, I scream they name. Like some of 'em might be singing songs. Like, you know, they might be talking to me about stuff that we was talking about on the air. Those are the people I like to talk to. What do we know? We've been doing— We do a lot of this. Yeah. Like I like talking to working class people. 'Cause yeah, I definitely, I still consider myself a working class person. I just do a different line of work. I used to work at Taco Bell. I did telemarketing. I worked at a clothing store. Me and my now wife used to work at a clothing store in the mall when we was teenagers. I did all of those things, but you really get to see what's going on in the world when you have conversations with working class people. They're the ones that can help you keep your boots on the ground.

Let's say we got one of them listening right now and they get to listen to you and they've come to the end of this podcast and you get to send them off. What are you saying to the person who's on their climb figuring it out, what would be the advice you would give them today? Or the thought that you would leave them with?

The first thing I would say to them is thank you. I am grateful that you decided to listen to the Codie Sanchez Podcast with Charlamagne tha God. Thank you. And thank you for whatever it is that you're doing every day that makes our lives better. And yeah, I would tell them, and the reason I'm saying thank you is because I would tell them, make sure that they have an attitude of gratitude. Attitude as well. Because man, when you wake up every day and you are genuinely grateful for where you are, like you say, God, thank you, man. God, I'm so thankful and grateful to be number one, just alive, but then number two, to be able to do what it is that I'm, I'm currently doing. You will constantly get blessed with more. I think that is what truly makes an individual happy, right? When you have true gratitude for where you are in life, you know, at the moment. Like, you can't wake up every day and hate what it is that you do. If you wake up every day and hate what it is that you do, please change what it is that you do. Like, you have to. Like, you cannot wake up every day and hate what it is that you do because you're going to project that negative energy onto everybody. Like, yo, don't be the the garbage man with an attitude, right? Don't be the person working at the fast food restaurant with the attitude. And same goes for us. Like if I wake up every morning with a negative attitude, I'm gonna get on that radio and I'm gonna project that onto the people. And trust me, I've been that before. I've been in that space where I've been that before. And God had to remind me quick, I can take this away from you. You do know that, right? Like I could take this away from you in 2 seconds. So you asked for this, you prayed for this. This is what you wanted. This is what you worked hard toward. How dare you come up here to every morning and project what you got going on, you know, negatively to the people. That's one of the reasons I started going to therapy. And when I started going to therapy back in 2016, I would literally come on the radio and tell everybody that I'm going to therapy every Friday at 3 o'clock. I started talking to the people about what it was I was dealing with because I owed that to them. They can't turn on the radio and hear me going off on somebody or hear me maybe badgering somebody in an interview. I'm like, damn, why is this person doing— why is he coming like that? It might be entertaining to some. Some might be like, what is up with this dude? I started to go do the work on myself because I wasn't happy with what was going on with me internally. And so me coming on the radio and expressing that, you know, to other people and tell people I'm going to therapy and trying to get a handle on my anxiety and bouts of depression and things like that, that became a whole movement of its own. And that just started with me being honest with my listeners and not wanting to take for granted the blessing that God had gave me, because I know he could take it away from me in a heartbeat. And that was 2016. So that was 6 years in The Breakfast Club. We still here 9 years later. I continue to grow. I continue to evolve. So clearly, you know, I did something right.

Last thing for you, like, what are you, what should people be following you on this year? I know you're working on a million things, but like, where should they be? Where are you like, I'm fucking excited. Tune into this, people.

Thank you. Yes. Thank you for that. Well, The Breakfast Club is coming to Netflix this year. Yeah. So, you know, you'll—

That's sick. So open up your TV. Open up your TV.

Yeah. Like right now, if you, you can go to Netflix right now, type in Breakfast Club. Up and you'll see it pop up. I think they say the video podcast start on January 26th. So you can set your reminders for that. And I mean, you know, a lot of people are having conversations about, you know, Netflix and they're saying Netflix is trying to compete with YouTube. I don't think Netflix is necessarily trying to compete with YouTube. I just think Netflix is doing what all of these, you know, streaming platforms are doing. Let's bring on content that people want to watch and let's just see if we can, you know, get as many eyeballs over here and have them them, you know, spending their time and attention, you know, with us. So I just think, you know, it's dope for the podcasting game, right? To see where podcasting has grown and where it's evolved to where, you know, a premium, you know, network like Netflix, you know, wants to have us on. And man, I just hope to do more of that. Like, you know, I want to, like, sitting here talking to you, you have a hit podcast, but what else does Codie Sanchez want to do? Codie Sanchez might have a scripted show. In mind based off her life or something. Codie Sanchez might wanna do documentaries. Those are the things that I'm thinking about with all of these streaming platforms. You know, Netflix has gotten in the game in a real way. I think Apple should follow suit. I think Peacock should follow suit. I think Amazon should follow suit and just tap in with us, right? These new media personalities who, you know, have a lot of different content and IP that we can bring to the table. So that's one thing, no Breakfast Club on Netflix. I also have a book imprint called Black Privilege Publishing, and 2026 is going to be a huge year for us because we have Arsenio Hall's memoir. I fucking love him. Yeah, which comes out in April. He's been one of my entertainment inspirations forever. You know, I have 4 huge entertainment inspirations. It's Jay-Z, Clarence Avant, a radio personality named Petey Greene, God bless the dead, and Arsenio Hall. And so it is, I mean, it's like a privilege to be publishing his memoir. So that comes out in March. March, I believe, but you can preorder his book now. My man 2 Chainz, you know, who you should actually have on this podcast because his business mind, he is, you know, a very, very astute businessman. You know, like one of my business ventures, which is the Krystal franchises that me and my wife have in South Carolina, I got into 'em because of 2 Chainz. You know, he has a—

What is a Krystal franchise?

Krystal is a burger spot.

Oh, sick.

Yeah. So they serve like, you know, they serve like little sliders. Like, so they're like the down south White Castle. Crystal. And so, yeah, you know, he has a role at Crystal. And my man Lil Duval, I saw him one day because Duval does this thing in his community called Duval Day. And I saw him with all these Crystal Burgers and I'm like, damn, I ain't see Crystal in a minute. Where you get Crystal from? And he was like, yo, you know, 2 Chainz is, you know, working with them now. So I reached out to Chainz and, you know, my guy Technique, that's 2 Chainz's partner, and they plugged me right in with my man, you know, Jonathan Childs, you know, who owns the Crystal franchise. So me and my ended up doing 6 of them. Salute to my guy Billy as well. And so we got 2 Chainz book coming out, "The Voice in My Head Is God." That comes out in April. My co-host Jess Hilarious, you know, on "The Breakfast Club," she has a book coming out called "Tell Death Do We Parent?" It's a co-parenting book that comes out this year as well. And we have some other ones that we haven't announced yet, so I can't announce 'em. But those 3 we've already announced. So you can go preorder those wherever you buy books now.

Let's do it. Preorders are so important. It's like, I don't think people realize, If you like one, if you like Arsenio, if they like you, if they like Jess, the best thing, it's such a gift to do a preorder because all the publishing nonsense you gotta get through. So hopefully you guys go buy some of those books.

Preorders are important, but I think that they're a tad, I'm not gonna say they're a tad bit overrated. I think the publishing company puts a little too much emphasis on 'em because people buy in the moment. People wanna buy right now. What does it mean to hit New York Times?

The shenanigans I had to go through. I agree. To try to, I was like, don't buy now, wait 3 seconds, only from this spot. It's fucking crazy town. It's my second book, I'm not doing any of that.

No, no, no. I care about selling books more than I care about the list. 'Cause the list is all politics, you know that.

I can't believe they let me on there. I thought for sure, no fuck, you know, Main Street Millionaire title about boring businesses making money. That's what people want. Yeah, but they don't, I don't think.

I'll drive myself crazy worrying about stuff like that. Seriously, because you just don't, I don't know how it works. Like, you know, it's all politics. With all of those lists. So I just want people to go out there, buy the books, learn something from the books most importantly, because all of those different books serve different purposes. Arsenio Hall's memoir is just for anybody who grew up on Arsenio and wants to see the ins and outs of Hollywood in the '90s and why he made the decisions that he made, because what he was doing was groundbreaking and revolutionary back then. So if you ever woof, woof, woof, woof, woof, You gonna love that book. 2 Chainz is literally, the voice in my head is God. So it's like a spiritual book that shows you, you know, why he made the moves that he made, you know, from child to, you know, now as an adult. And, you know, Jess' book is about co-parenting. It's literally about how her and her, you know, her first baby's father, you know, had a healthy co-parenting relationship. So we got a lot of different books for a lot of different people.

I can't wait to read them. Absolutely. Charlamagne tha God, thanks for being here. Thank you, Codie.

This is amazing. Absolutely.

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