#12 What To Do If You HATE YOUR JOB in 2024

You are not meant to stay in minimum wage.

A study showed that job hopping beat inflation for 49% of job hoppers.

We shouldn't be trying to raise the minimum wage. We should be trying to get people out of minimum wage jobs.

Have you ever had an HR experience?

Bad bosses are the number one reason there are great entrepreneurs. A lot of people don't know how to quit. They don't know the right way to quit. They don't know how to ask for more money. They don't know how to move on to the next thing. Ring the band in. Let's go. Hey, it's the Big Deal podcast and I'm Cody Sanchez for those who don't just want to be rich but free and do what it actually takes to get there. Okay, today we got three good things for you. First of all, what to do if you're miserable and you hate your job. 2. Why corporations and institutions are something we don't trust very much anymore when it comes to jobs. Three, what can you do about it? We're going to break that down in all its detail today, so hang out with us. I want to share a quick business tip that I've been thinking a lot about lately. It's Eliminate automate, Delegate. So so if you do tasks in that order in your business, it runs more smoothly. I'm always looking for tools to help eliminate tasks, then automate them, and then finally delegate those that are absolutely necessary. One of those tools is Riverside. Not only can it record 4K video and audio remotely to make sure your podcast quality is top notch, but it's also drastically improve my team's editing speed with the text based editor, transcribes your footage, removes silences in one click, and creates these short clips just by selecting the text. Even better, if you make a mistake, which we try not to do, you can delete the sentence and the transcript will delete it from your video instantly. So Riverside has an in platform editor where you can upload your own content too. So it's not just footage recorded on Riverside that gets the special treatment. So how do people find new podcasts? Often from seeing clips. Right? You see a bunch of mine. Riverside gets this. And that's why I like their AI Magic Clips analyzes moments in your podcast that have the most potential to get traction online. That saves hours of listening to your podcast for the fifth time to find the perfect clip. Riverside's got you covered. We're always trying to remove automate, not add and complicate. But don't waste your time Doing what Riverside can do for you. I got you guys a deal. If you want to try it for yourself, get the Riverside link in the description and use the code Cody for an exclusive discount for y'. All. Our contrarian idea of the day is basically this, that young people these days all seem to hate their jobs and not like what they're doing and do videos like this on the Internet, which you guys might have seen, which went super viral. A 21 year old with a TikTok video that has been taken down because she got all this backlash. Everybody was talking about it. I want you guys to hear a part of it. And instead of bashing on this young woman because it sucks to be young in your 20s and broke, let's talk about what to do about this. All right, here we go.

I know I'm probably just being so dramatic and annoying, but this is my first job. Like my first 9 to 5 job after college and I am in person and I'm commuting in the city and it takes me forever to get there. There's no way I'm going to be able to afford living in the city right now. So that's off the table. Like duh. If I was able to walk to work and it'd be fine, but I'm not. So it literally takes me. Like I leave here, like I get on the train at 7:30 and I don't get home till like 6:15 earliest. And then like I don't have time to do anything. I don't, I want to shower, eat my dinner and go to sleep. I don't have time or energy to cook my dinner either. Like I don't have energy to work out. Like that's out the window. Like I'm so upset, dude, I feel that.

Rachel, you live in New York. I bet.

You know I do some of this. I don't work a corporate job. What are your thoughts on this? Honestly?

Well, I guess this is what I kind of would say if you were young, lost and broke. I realized the other day that I wish somebody had said to young me when this was going down that there's some truth that nobody really tells you, which is that the second that you leave school, you turn into an adult and you realize what that actually means. And on average you get what a challenging white collar college grad job. You're going to work eight to ten hours a day. You'll finish and be tired and stressed. You'll just want a glass of booze or weed and food and Netflix to do it all but then you'll find out, like, your fridge is empty, so you got to go to the grocery store. You go from fluorescent lights at work to fluorescent lights and banging carts to mindlessly wandering around because, I don't know, you can't even remember the right aisle for pasta. But then you find it, and then there's like 1500 options, except the one you want, so whatever you like, grab the fucking bag and you walk like cattle through a grate. And then the checkout line is, of course, so long, which is dumb because it's rush hour and basically the same every single week, so they should know the difference. But, like, you remember that it's not the checkout lady's fault, so you kind of fake smile at each other because the only thing more tedious and monotonous than your life right now is probably hers. But you got the food. So then you lug the groceries 10 blocks back to your house. The plastic is flimsied, so it's digging into your fingers, and the wine is punishing you with its weight before you even get to drink it. And finally you get home, you eat your pasta by yourself, but you rush, so it's still kind of hard. And then you drink enough wine until you can crawl into bed for another day of the same monotony while you wonder if this will be the entirety of your existence. That is what they don't tell you about your first job, is that it won't actually crush you with the difficulty. It'll crush you with the banality and torturous meaninglessness of it all. You don't get the right to earn to start. And even worse, you don't get the right to challenging problems. And this is the truth. And the only silver lining is that if you get through this, all the I numbing boredom and you prove that you are not just okay, but great, you will eventually get to do things you love and make more money than you ever imagined. However, it will feel kind of like slowly pulling off your fingernails one by one at first, and there is no other way. But the adults should have told you that they should have told this young woman that, because many of them are still stuck in the cycle and too terrified to admit it and unwilling to look your disappointment in the eye to tell you kind of the truth. So you don't need to ask them if they're happy or not. You can see it on their faces. And I think that's what I realized, that young people kind of say, we hate it here, but that's because they don't actually understand what here is and how long they have to be here. Your first job, it's like the dmv. It's shitty. Nothing makes sense. It's not efficient. You don't know what you're doing. They take an awful picture of you. They make you use it as a license. It takes way longer than you think to get out of there. But you're not supposed to stay there. And that's why you can handle the dmv. It's a hell, but it's temporary. I guess that's my long rant on what somebody should have told this young woman and what somebody should tell all of us about our first job. It sucks. Expect it. Adults who don't tell you that are lying to you because they are stuck in it and they know it. And it'll be okay because there's a way out afterwards. I obviously have no strong feelings on this whatsoever.

Obviously none at all on that. Let's get into the idea of the week.

Yeah. What is the idea of the week? This week.

You have to leave your job or you will make less money. Except if you do this. A study showed that job hopping beat inflation for 49% of job hoppers, based on a Federal Reserve bank of Atlanta report. For those that stayed, only 42%. Got inflation beating raises. So you are basically losing the game if you stayed in your role. So inflation is like 2 to 3% per year, right. So if you're a high performer, you could be seeing like 7 to 12% as a raise. That would be awesome. Like, that would be so sick. But if you're not seeing like at at least a raise that's 2 to 3%, inflation's beating you. So you're literally losing money by stay in that job. So on that, how much job hopping should we actually be doing?

You are not meant to stay in minimum wage. For instance, like, everybody wants to raise the minimum wage. And I think that's lying to us about what actually matters. We shouldn't be trying to raise the minimum wage. We should be trying to get people out of minimum wage jobs. That should be a stepping stone to a higher level job. And we should have more advancement in our careers as opposed to stagnation and expecting the stagnant levels of learning to stay at the same price or payment. I think job hopping is totally fine, but it shouldn't be lateral. So lots of different ways for you to jump a job. You can jump a job from side to side. You could jump a job from up and Down. And you want to make sure that as often as possible, you're jumping from down to up. And so if you look at my career, I think I stayed a year and a half on average for my first three jobs. I stayed that long because I pressed and asked for a raise at each job for performance. By the way, this doesn't work if you suck. You know, if you suck, you don't know if your performance is actually driving revenue to the company you're not in. Let's call it the top. You know, 40% of people that do the same job as you. You need to get better at the thing that you're doing right now as opposed to go try to negotiate for more. But if you are a top performer, then I think you need to be asking for a raise every year, maybe twice a year, depending on what you do. And then if you have no opportunity for you to make more money, that is when you jump. And that's what I did in every single jump. So I jumped for cash and then I jumped for title. And the reason jumping for title is interesting is because if you right now in finance, this is how it was, but it could apply to lots of different companies. So say you come in as an analyst, which is the lowest level. An analyst has a. What's called a pay range, right? So they're only really allowed to pay analysts within this band. And so if you want to get the next level of payment, you really got to go to an associate level. So I wouldn't just leave to go be an analyst at Morgan Stanley to then go be an analyst at Merrill Lynch. I would jump from analyst to associate. And with that title change, typically, what is the difference between one job and another with when it comes to title, it's responsibilities. Asking for a higher title is really just saying, I am willing to do harder and more work. That's what that means. It's not that you've been there longer, it's not anything besides that. So those are the two things I would think about, is if you can't get a raise, if you can't get a title jump and you are a top performer, it's time to move.

You were talking about how you've been enrolled for like a year and a half on average. What was that process like? Like the actual pros approach to going to your employers and asking for a raise.

Negotiation, one on one. If you guys want to make more money, learn how to negotiate. That's the name of the game. Chris Voss never split the difference. I think the Best way to learn negotiation is by listening to him. There's really, like, three things you need to know if you want to negotiate a salary raise at your company. The first thing that you need to know is you need to know what your job is worth. So how do you decide what your job is worth? There's two ways to do that. The first way is to go and look at competitors from other companies and see what they're willing to pay. If you are a graphic designer at a company, go look out. And in your sector and in your job responsibility and in your geography, how much do they pay another graphic designer At a company of similar size? You go to Indeed.com, you check out your competitive listings. Okay, great. Now you know you're paid 67,000. The average is 70,000. You've got some ability to negotiate between the two. The second way that you can determine how much you make is by figuring out how much revenue you drive to the company. How much value do you bring to the company? And that, I think, is the equation that most people do not have where you don't realize what you make somebody for every hour that you spend inside of the company. So I would try to figure that out. So if you're a graphic designer at a company, I would try to figure out, well, do my graphic designs help sell ads? You know, do these graphic designs go in books? And what would they cost them to do it somewhere else? After you understand how much you make, understand what makes your boss look better or cooler. And I don't want to spend that much time on, like, salary raises because for some reason, people just don't do it. I think there's something like 30% of people that will ever negotiate their salary on an annual basis. 70% of people just will never do it. You guys will never do it. I don't know why you don't want to hear about it on the Internet. It's the easiest way to make money is to make more money doing the current thing that you're already doing with one or two conversations. But for some reason, everybody wants to hear about side hustles as opposed to negotiating their salaries. And most people think that their bosses will not give them a raise. And I actually think it's the opposite. I think your boss will give you a raise. You just suck at asking for it because you don't know what you're worth. You don't know what the competitive landscape is, and you don't know what matters to your boss. But if you knew that your boss had a quota that he had to hit or your boss has, you know, revenue goals that they have to hit and if you could help your boss hit that your boss makes more money, then you could negotiate better. I'm sure in the comments there's going to be 472 people going, that must be nice that you could do that. But I can't. I don't know why that is.

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Have you ever had to negotiate before going into a role? So say you're doing one of those, like, lateral movements. Was there a way that you were able to make that actually move? That was a step up by negotiating before you walk in the door. I feel like that's an area where people get really nervous because you're like, oh my gosh, what happens if this new hire, a new employer, says no?

If you want to make more money in negotiating a salary when you're jumping jobs, one of my favorite ways to do that is using what's called a shadow influence. And so a lot of times we don't want to be the bad guy, right? And so when you go to negotiate, you go, hey, I really would like to make $75,000, not 70. And they're like, okay, greedy. Or at least that's what you think in your mind. What's interesting is I instead would say something like this, my significant other. And I will have to make some changes. Will either have to move because of this, you know, I'm going to have to do less work with him because of this. And so I've really sort of agreed upon the next role with him because I'm going to pour so much of myself into it. I need to make at least $75,000 for our next step as a couple. And so I've kind of gone back and forth with him on that. And so for that reason, I really need the $75,000. You'll find men do this all the time with their wives. Well, I've got to check with the wife. It's a brilliant move because you have a shadow balance, right? You can do the same thing. I've got to check with my partner. I've got to check with my significant other. You know, I really can't spend time away from the kids for that amount. We've said as a family, we understand sacrifices for our family based on this amount. But anything less than that, I need, you know, I need to spend time with. With my kids. So I would use one. A shadow influence. Really, really useful. And who can argue with you? Who's. They can't go to you and go, well, tell your boyfriend to go fuck off. That doesn't work, right? Tell your wife her opinion doesn't matter. So you've, like, put yourself as the good guy. Like, I would let me talk to the wife, let me talk to the other guy. It's really smart. The second thing that I would do is you could negotiate something along the lines of, hmm. When I look out at the competitive landscape, I see that this role is worth X. And for my experience level, when I've spoken to other companies, they say my experience level is worth X. Now I want to go with your company. I love what you guys do. You're my number one. No side pieces, just you. But I want to understand where the difference is between what I see the market is and what other people say my compensation is versus yours. Do you think that we could come up to that level since that's what it looks like market is? And that way I would feel really comfortable. I wouldn't even negotiate for something over what market is. Again, what are you doing? You're using a shadow influence, which is I'm going to. This is what the market says, I can't help it. This is what everybody else says, I can't help it. And at least that way you don't look greedy for no reason. You've got data to back up hard conversations.

Has anybody ever come to you and asked for a raise? And I want to hear about like the first time that happened because I feel like that would be kind of like jarring. Like somebody as like a business owner yourself, Somebody coming up to you being like, yeah, I don't feel like I'm getting paid enough. Like that must feel.

I don't think anybody does it well the first time. So like just feel better about that. And, and it's always going to annoy your boss because what are you doing? You're just saying like, I want to take more money out of your pocket and put it into mine. And like we're humans and so that's how they're going to respond to you, at least physically. So as much as you can put your on their side of the table versus on the opposite side of the table is really key. How it's been done poorly is like we had this one video editor that he had no idea what his job was worth. He had no idea what the market was, and he just threw out a wild number. He's like, I want to make this. And I was like, okay, cool. Why? And he's like, well, because that's what I think I'm worth. Why? Well, because, you know, I think that that's what the job is. And it's just like house of cards fell real quick right now. That one kind of pissed me. He wanted a crazy number. I think he wanted $200,000 to be a part time editor for short form videos. And he was living in another country. And I was like, the thing is, you've watched a lot of my videos and I've told you to negotiate, but you forgot the original thing, which is you have to understand what your role is worth. And your role is just simply not worth that. And so that's, that's point one. The second thing that can be, you know, kind of tough when people have negotiated with me before. The worst thing that you can do and think about this with your partner too, there's something called set and setting. So if you want to have a negotiation with your partner and you want to get what you want from your part, should you ask your partner when he's coming home from work, he's beat up, he's like tired, it was a long day, he's like schlepping his bags in the thing. And the second that he comes in the door, you're like, can you please take out the trash and like clean up. The house is a total mess. What do you think his reaction is going to be? It's gonna be like, get the out of. Get off me. I'm like, I just walked in the door. Calm down. Yet this is really normal. We all do this to our partners. And so instead you could get, you could have the exact same question. But if you set your set and setting more appropriately, you'll probably win. So if instead of doing that, when your person comes in, you go, honey, you have like a little cocktail for him. You, you know, maybe like come and give a big hug, you help him with his bags, you, like set it down, you give him a kiss. You're like, I love you. Then give him like 20 minutes, get him to chill out, get him to sit on the couch. And what do you do? Set in settings, you're like, oh, you've got a whiskey, I've got a whiskey. We're both hanging out now. You're more chill. Hey, you know what? Not right now, but like in the next like 20 or something. Can we clean up around the house? It's a little bit chaotic in here. And like, would you mind taking out the trash? That's too heavy for me. And what do you think your likelihood of him saying yes is going to be? Way higher. Right? And so it's the same thing with your boss. If you come in and your boss has just come out of a bunch of meetings and you've not scheduled it, and you come in hard and it's after negative earnings report, and you say like, I want to make this. Your boss is immediately fight or flight. Typically fight and it's not going to go over well. Instead you can do it the opposite. Wait until you're going to have some moment where you do something cool for your boss. So you're like, oh man, we just had an incredible launch. Look, the numbers are way up. Like, I'm so happy. Oh, we have this new hire bop, up, up. And then, you know, you talk to them, you celebrate and you go, you know, given this, I'd really love to talk to you about potential to earn more on a go forward basis. Would you be open to talking about how if I do X and Y and Z, I could potentially make this amount and because you set and setting right, you might win.

Say, like the raise is out of the question. And the reason being is because your manager is just really unattentive. Like the person watching you, like, they are the problem and you can't grow in that space. You can't get the new role. How do you expect somebody to go about leaving their job dead?

Well, I mean, I've done this like, I don't know, six times. I've left jobs that didn't work. I'm corporate as they come. Most people on the Internet are literally unemployable. Like, they've never had a real job. They don't understand people who have jobs. They tell you guys every single day why you should just quit and go all in and it doesn't matter. And they've only ever been content creators, and it's always annoyed me. And I'm the opposite of that. I was total wuss. And it took me like 12 years before I could fully quit and just go on my own. I remember I was walking with One of my CEOs at the time who ran a company called First Trust, a guy I still love and respect to this day. And I told him what I wanted to do and how I wanted to earn more money and how I wanted the business to grow. And he kind of told me, not your boat, not your oars. If you want to roll in the other direction, I welcome that, but it's not here. I was like, kind of gave me like a little bit of an ultimatum. You can either do this or you can bail. You know, get on board or get motoring. What I ended up doing is I finally decided that I would leave the company the second that I made enough money that I could replace what my monthly nut was. So the amount that I had to make every month in order to get my expenses covered. And so I started doing that by doing a little side hustle, which I called business buying on the side. When that got big enough, then I left the company, which is usually how I think about doing this. The moral of the story is like something like, you know, 60 to 70% of people, if they're going to leave a job, they leave it because their boss sucks. Because, you know, I think bad bosses are the number one reason there are great entrepreneurs. And if there are less bad bosses, there'd be less great entrepreneurs. And so if at the end of the day, you have an unreasonable boss, that will not work for you, you must leave. And when you leave, I think you have two, two ways to do it. You, collateral in order to get a little bit more pay and the ability to have a better boss in order to, hopefully, if your next job, you can't do it. In this one, you do an up and down jump where you get a higher pay, a higher title too. But at some point you do just have to leave, and that's okay.

I think we should now move on to Steal My Rich Friend, which is not going to be Steal My Rich Friend this week because the friends are actually people that responded to a tweet that you put up earlier today.

Oh, and by the way, you guys, if you're listening to this right now, we're going to start doing a bunch of Q&As with questions that we get on YouTube. So if you're listening to us on YouTube right now at the Big Deal podcast, go comment on the videos, drop your questions in there, and Rachel's going to keep pulling those. And so whether those are questions we answer or we do a list of them and we get those questions to people on the pod, it'll be a chance for us to kind of get to know each other.

When should you jump from doing a side hustle that's not working? So instead of quitting your main job, when can you quit that side job if it's just not working out? How much time and effort should you be putting into that?

Yeah, I failed like 3x the number of actual businesses that I've succeeded in. There's a saying and in fire in hiring and firing, which is hire slow, fire fast. It's the same with side hustles. It's pick your side hustle kind of slowly and bail on it quickly if you see that there's not product market fit. Like if you look at the reason why small businesses fail, something like 70% of small businesses, which would be like startups, fail because they never hit product market fit. And what does product market fit mean? Means nobody gives you money for you to give them X that you've created. So I would say a side hustle is one point at this stage of your career for you to make money. Right? So if it's not making you money, it's not a side hustle. It's called charity. And you can do charity, but know that that's what you're doing. And so for me, I got a 90 day rule which is if you can't start a side hustle and make money that is profitable dollars in your pocket after 90 days, then you bail on it and you could try the next one. And since this isn't your main thing, it's perfectly fine for you to have some shots on goal because you don't actually know what it feels like to hit a three pointer until you have tried and tried and tried and tried again. And then eventually you'll be like, oh, that's what it feels like when it's easy. And you won't know that if you don't have a lot of shots on goal.

Interesting that you say 90 because there's this rule, it's called like the 2190 rule and it suggests that it takes 90 days for a habit to become a permanent lifestyle change. So I like that you said 90. How long did it take before you hit break even from leaving and then growing further?

Oh, well, we were talking about this because you had a job, right? You don't think about all the expenses that goes into when you're, when you're doing it by yourself. You had a job working with a bunch of podcasts, right, where you were paid W2 and then you decided to go out on your own and then it took you what, about a month before you were gross revenue making more than you were previously. Right? Because you probably didn't keep a P and L. I would guess I did keep a piano. Look at you, nerd. So proud.

Yeah, I did, but. So it probably took like three months,

okay, for me three months for you to hit where you were making more than your previous role or where you

were profitable to when I was profitable. But that is because I started saving up really early for the things that I knew I was going to have to replace crazy early on. So while I still had my nine to five, I bought things for the company and was able to with much, much, much smaller, like selling my clothes on the Internet type style, making money, afford to buy things like a new laptop, like a home setup and things like that. If I didn't do that, I think it would. It would have taken me like six months. Yeah, definitely like six months.

What would you need to know that you need to know from the time you leave to at least 90 days after that, you're probably in the red. You're losing money maybe at about 90 days if you're a services based business like you are. So that means it's your trad generating, you know, your skill set and time for somebody else's dollars. Those are the fastest businesses that, you know, give you your cash on cash return right away, like give you your money back. You know, I didn't start making more money in my side hustles than in my main job for like years. I mean, because I made a lot of money. You know, I was making maybe a million bucks before I quit. So in order for me to make up a million dollars in annual salary, it took me A long time of investing in small businesses, of doing investments, of having a few of them pay off quickly. It's not like paycheck. So when you're getting a paycheck, you're like, I don't know, it's $5,000 every two weeks, $5,000 every two weeks and $5,000 every two weeks. And maybe you get a little bonus when you are running your own business. I wish it was that even it's not like, you know, we had a couple months where we lost money, we had a couple months where we made a ton of money. And so you also have to be able to do what's called forward projecting and figure out what you might do on a, on a go forward basis. And so if you're listening to this, assume that the six month emergency fund that you have, you're going to need more than that if you want to run a small business. And it's going to take a while for you to break even between the two. And so don't expect anything different than that. And otherwise I think you set yourself up for failure.

We got quite a few questions on people that were trying to balance high stress jobs while balancing families. And one of the questions I thought were interesting within there, the person was basically like, listen, like my job is just way too high stress. I'm going, like I am going to have to go too a lower paying job, like that's just how this is going to have to work for me. What advice do you have for people that are going to have to make a jump and in order like that trade off is going to be like more family time. Yes. And maybe less stress, but a lower paying salary. Like do you have any, any words of wisdom there?

I always ask myself, what if it was easy? And so the team hears this from me a lot. I think you sometimes need a mental reframe. You've said a statement that I am not sure is true. And the statement is that no matter what, in order to have less stress, I need to make less money. I would say back to you, what if you don't and what if it's in fact easy for you to not do that? And so once you start asking yourself questions like that, it just opens your brain entirely. And so now you might say something like, I might just be one hire away from a totally different business. For instance, let's say you're an attorney and so it's super high stress. You have billable hours, you're feeling a little bit trapped by that and you don't know how to get away from it except for you to have a lower paying job? I don't know, can you take some consulting on the side that is project based as opposed to hourly based? And can you hire somebody off upwork and a mixture of chat GPT to do a part of the job that's lower level for you? And so you're having to bill a bunch of things and hours at a law firm that perhaps you don't actually need to if you go out on a project basis, could you also structure something as a productized service as opposed to an hourly billable rate as an attorney? And so, you know, a lot of things in life for me are just are you asking yourself the right questions? And if you're asking yourself the right questions, you will often find answers that nobody else will. The problem is we get constrained in thinking that puts us inside of a box. Not even in first principles thinking, but in, you know, societal thinking. And I would want to break out of that mindset.

And last question, how to quit your job if you are the boss.

Yeah, you know, we just hired this a guy for a company called Biz Scout and he, he worked at a large marketplace and I bought this company and he's going to go in as the CEO and the sign that you have a great hire is that the company that he's leaving or she's leaving, they don't want them to leave. And so they want to extend their time. Even though they're saying I'm going to leave, that the company goes, wait, can you give us more time? And that's what they did with Bobby. Bobby did the right thing. First of all, he said, I would never leave a company and only give you two weeks. I'm going to give you four to six weeks. And if you need it, great. If you don't need it, great. And negotiating that between the two companies is a major move. And here's why you might want to do that. Because we found some statistics that basically show that upwards of 60, 70 or even 80% of people regret leaving the job that they had previously. And then another, let's call it 60% of people actually thought that they would get a better next job and hopped for something that they thought was better, but it actually wasn't. So think about that for a second. If it's the case that you might actually regret going back, why wouldn't you diminish that regret by not burning the bridge? Everybody always talks about you should burn all the bridges. I would do the exact opposite I would say to your boss, I love it here. I need to take a chance on myself. I want to go do this other big risky thing. I would never put you in a bad position. So let me give you somewhere between, I don't know, does three to five to six weeks work for you? If you only want two weeks, awesome. But I'm here for you regardless. And I'm happy to take, you know, sort of a one off, 1099 consulting thing if you need it on the time. I know it's hard to find good people. Your boss is going to go, that's awesome. Thank you. They'll say, good, you know, I need it, I don't need it. And if you want an even more pro move, you could say, I have a few people that I think would be really great for this job. So that's what I did when I left my, my, my last private equity company. I said, I'm leaving. I think you should hire my number two. That was my COO at the time and you should put her in my position. And she's still there to this day and she's crushing it. And I allowed her to become the CEO of a division and I allowed them to have a very easy transition. And now I'm still friends with the CEO and oh, by the way, this guy's a billionaire and wants to invest in my stuff. Don't burn the bridge, actually, even if you hate your boss, which at some point, sorry, Jim. I hated this guy and I hated the managers of this company. And I thought some of the managers of that company were the most chauvinistic idiots I'd ever met in my entire life. I had my ass slapped so hard I had a red handprint on it. At a company meeting in front of a bunch of other people, shout out, Mike, you know who you are. On the other hand, I learned a ton there. And so I actually gave a really smooth transition. I'm friends to this day with a bunch of the people there and some of them have invested in some of my companies. And so even if you hate them, I think, remember that most humans, all of us, are flawed. There's some people that hate you, there are many people that hate me. And so giving people a little benefit of the doubt is probably a good thing.

I think we should transition now to CEO story time. You have some pretty aggressive views on working from home. I work from home. I would love to hear your thoughts and really just rip into this topic.

I think one of the worst things we ever did was try to tell people that remote work was better, myself included. Now that we have an office here, really cool studio, you know, we've got our small group. There's no fluorescent lights, there's no drop ceilings in sight. We've realized how much more fun it is to be with a group of people who are crazily building something even into the deep hours of the night. And that there is something really invigorating about other humans being around you, doing the thing that you're going to spend more time in your life doing than almost anything else, except for maybe sleeping. I think if you are young, hungry, and you want to make big moves and make a bunch of money, you should not take remote job. You want to be in the office now. You want to be in a cool office. You hopefully don't want to have a 75 minute commute. You want to optimize a little bit for lifestyle, but you should try to be around other winners because it's way more fun. The thing that's interesting about your job is you're remote, but you kind of pop in and pop out of here, right? So you get a little bit of this and then you're in New York City, in the city proper, right. And so you're actually able to engage with a ton of people every single day. And so that makes things slightly different. But for most people, who here feels like you could have more Zoom meetings and that'd be really fun for you? Nobody. Like, how can you be inspired and want to do big things when you're just on Zoom 24. Seven? We are tribal, communal animals that need other people around us. A fast way to unhappiness and lack of motivation is sitting in front of your computer screen for 10 hours a day, Zoom meeting each other.

I've actually gone against this too. So I used to be die hard work from home and now I go into offices probably two or three days a week.

So by.

Right, yes, by choice, half a day. I'm not a full dayer and I do not plan to be, but I, I do think that, like, it's been since 2020 that I've been remote and it's 2024. Like, I mean, my first job was remote and it was really difficult, I'm sure, for other people as well. It's like, how do you get seen as somebody that's worth promoting if you are a remote employee?

It's kind of useful for us to know we were talking about this today. It's like you get to hang out in your pajamas for two years post Covid and you kind of forget how to put outfits on and how to do your hair and makeup and you know, you don't have to do all of the things that adults need to do. And so we, we had just hired somebody the other day and she had a real tough time coming back after a couple years off work. And so I think once you get out of the workforce, real hard to get back in. Even if you just keep your little tootsie in there, just like one little finger. I think it's really important to try.

So one thing as like a work from Homer, you have to have like crazy discipline. It sucks like sometimes like you really have to be on top of it. What advice do you have on people transitioning from working from home to a full time job? Do you have that don't have like that level of discipline?

Here's the tough truth. If you stop playing the sport for a while, let's say you stop running track and then you don't do it for two years or a year and then you try to get back on the team collegially, let's say college, and you expect to after not running for a certain period of time a year plus for you to get chosen and start winning is like basically never going to. You would never think that. You never go, listen, I haven't played the sport in two years or a year, I'm going to go out and I'm going to crush it. That's just not the case. You're not going to. So the tough part is I think if you haven't played the game in a while, you have to play harder than everybody else and longer than everybody else. And there's basically no other way around it. If you want to get back in the game of being an employee, you gotta employ harder than the rest of everybody else. The older you are, the harder that gets. Myself included. You know, if I was gonna go back into the workforce and have to work for somebody else, not myself, I would probably have to scale up pretty quickly. My ability to use chat GPT, I'm not really that good at that right now. I would have to scale up really quickly. How to use, you know, slack and integrations and all of that. I'm not that good at that. So just expect like a 20 to 30% work harder rate for like six months. Which means that, you know, you start a job as an executive assistant, you come in 20 to 30% earlier than everybody else and you probably stay 20 to 30% longer than everybody else and you're working quite a bit harder with less distractions because you're just not good enough yet. I only think you need to do that for 90 days to six months, at which point you've normalized. Anybody who tells you you can just jump right back in, it's probably not going to be the case. You're going to have to work harder for a period because you're just not as good anymore.

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about like just you. As you said before, you call yourself like as corporate as they come. I've never worked anywhere with an HR department. What has your experience been? Have you ever had an HR experience? These are the kind of stories I want to hear.

Oh God, the only time. So I think I've had six people leave me in my career running businesses and divisions where I didn't let them go or they moved on to a new division within the company. Like six people. And of those six people, all of them except one. It's too soon to tell. We'll see if she comes back. Have come back and wanted a job in some way, shape or form, which is really interesting. And I did rehire one of them who's been awesome. But the only one of them that really left in a bad way. Everybody else left totally pro. Total pro moves. The only one that left badly was a young woman and she went to HR as a partner at the firm. I didn't run the company at this time and basically said that she thought that I was paying less because she was a woman. And I was like, the thing is, I also have a vagina, and so I don't see why I would do that. And then it's a sales company, and so I don't actually determine pay. It's like, how much you sell is how much you make. And so one thing that I would be really careful of these days, turning yourself into a victim when you leave. And this is, like, tough advice that I'm sure the Internet's not gonna love. The reason that, you know, she wasn't making as much money is because she wasn't bringing in as much money, end of story. And she really dementimized her credibility by using a story like that. And at least for me, because, you know, thankfully I am a woman and a Latina, so I got the double check mark out there for all the PC world is that I don't really take well to. To being blackmailed on any way, shape, or form. So I wouldn't really be scared by somebody coming out and saying, well, I'm gonna say something because I'm a woman. I don't care. Like. Like, as long as we are not doing something wrong, if we are doing all the right things, I will stand up for our practices and our employees. And so that person, she's since come back, kind of apologized, talked about it since then. I would never recommend her again, and I would never push her on to the next level. Now, I think sometimes you do stuff when you're young that you wish you hadn't done, and I have plenty of those. Like, if I look back at young Cody, I think the first time that I asked her for a raise, I just assigned a percentage to it. And I asked it, like, after I had just gotten, you know, a title change and a little bit of a raise. So I've done it wrong myself so many times too, guys. But what I would say is it really never ends well. If you use the victim card, your bosses are going to remember it's not going to get you ahead long term. You're better than that. If that sort of stuff is going on, just get out. Go find a new role somewhere where you don't feel like that's happening to you. But I would never play the victim them. One thing we almost didn't cover that I want to make sure we do, is if you work for a big company or a company with a good name that can last you, like, decades. I haven't Worked at Goldman Sachs since like 2008. And I was like a peon analyst nobody back then. And yet the first thing people say about me still is that I worked at Goldman Sachs. You worked at a couple of companies that are really big name podcasts. We won't mention them, but I hired you because of that. I mean, also because you're lovely and you're Rachel, but, like, I didn't know those other things. And so the real problem that I think we don't realize is we have to like treasure the couple big names that we get because they can actually catapult you for the rest of your career. So what did you do when you quit? Because you're real fresh off of that to make sure that they didn't hate you and they would say nice things about you.

I gave enough time. I really tried to prepare like a notion page or like a doc of everything that I did explaining it. I watched a bunch of videos like this explaining, like, how I can quit my job in the best way. I had a really good. I liked my job. Like, I didn't quit my job because I didn't like it. So I think that's like a unique experience. I quit my job because I was ready for the next. The next thing. And the next thing I felt like was, was what I'm doing right now. So I think that kind of put me in a different. At a unique place. And I also did something that I didn't. I didn't know was going to happen when I quit. But after I quit, they asked me to come back. They asked me to come back a little bit on like a contracting basis just a few times. And every time they did that, I said yes as much as I possibly could. I even tried one time when I was like trying to work off Internet. That was so bad, I'm looking at it like I probably shouldn't have said yes. But every time they asked me to do something, even after I left, I tried to be as helpful as humanly possible because I really liked that, that role and I think that has served me well.

You can also leave your mark on an organization for years to come if you do sops of what your job is like, if you uniquely tie it up. One thing that I didn't realize back in the day is uniquely tying it up also gave me the frameworks to then use in my next job. So, like, I was like, oh, well, every single time I'm going to document how I reach out to clients. I'm going to document how I engage from the hours of nine to five. I'm going to document all the important phone numbers that I have. And that's actually really not hard. That is all very easy to do. It just takes some work and nobody does it. And if you wrap a bow like that for your last employer, your likelihood of getting an incredible letter of recommendation of them investing in you in the future, if you want, of them even introducing you to other people for other jobs is actually really, really big. And I was like a total. I really, like, believed my own bullshit for a lot of years when I was working. And so I was really, like. I kind of thought I was. I was. I was a badass. And so there were like. I think there were probably two times where I left a company in a not great way, you know, where I left a company and I said, you know, I'm out. I'm going to a competitor. Two weeks. See you later. You know, And I kind of had a chip on my shoulder. If I could have done that again, I would have done it differently on that.

I think that is a great way to end this episode.

Cody, we did this because 49% of people in the US right now say they want to quit their job in some way, shape or form, which is a lot of you. A lot of people don't know how to quit. They don't know the right way to quit. They don't know how to ask for more money, and they don't know. Know how to move on to the next thing. We have one deal here. We try to give you the deal, and we ask for one deal in return, which is that you seal the deal, that you subscribe to this podcast, wherever you listen to podcasts. I do think that you all are builders in a world of consumers. You're super rare. I see each and every one of you. To me, you know that I got it. No need to look all in a bag.