Manipulation Expert: Success Isn’t Luck, It’s Rigged | Robert Greene

I don't want you to crush your enemy totally. I want you to be aware that that happens in business all the time.

I have wanted to interview this man for years. He is one of my favorite authors of all time. He wrote 48 laws of power.

At this very moment, there are vultures circling around. We're going to buy your business out and crush you. It's a merciless environment and what that signals is you're weak, we can play you, and the next time around, we're going to negotiate the hell out of you. I don't want you to be like that. I want you to be open.

And what do you think is the most underrated human truth that a young person should know who wants control or power?

The most important skill that you can.

Have is wow, is there something that you do when you are feeling absolutely no way you can write well?

You know, it's almost a question that makes me want to cry. I'm so sorry.

This is the Big Deal podcast and I'm Cody Sanchez. I am so excited, you guys. I have wanted to interview this man for, for years. He is one of my favorite authors of all time. I even embarrassingly told him that today. And if you, like me, want to understand power. You want to understand how do you seduce someone? You want to understand how do I get my way? You want to understand why is it that this person isn't doing what I want them to do? Are these people actually out to get me? What is the truth of the situation that no one will tell me? Robert Greene, I think, is one of the few people in the world that will tell you the truth. He wrote the very famous book 48 Laws of Power, which he gave me a copy of right here. He wrote another favorite book of mine called Persuasion. He's actually written seven books that have sold millions of copies, all about this idea overarching of how do we communicate and how does power exist. We talk about human nature through the decades and centuries, the things that are true consistently, what to do in order to not be anti seductive and what a young person should know that no one else will tell you. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Robert Green as much as I did. I hope you tell me in the comments how I did because I was very nervous and I didn't sleep last night thinking about this interview. And hopefully you give it a ton of views, likes, shares and you subscribe so that I can have him back because I have about 452 other questions for him. So if you have questions for Robert, too. Put them down below. I promise you, next time we'll go even deeper. Without further ado, the one, the only, Robert Green. Do you think best when you write or when you speak or when you read?

Wow. I mean, when I'm reading, I'm. I'm doing a lot of thinking and I have a very active way of reading. I. I take notes and I write in the book, in the margins of the book. And if I don't like a book, which happens every now and then, I'm like, crossing everything out and I'm writing fu on the margin stuff. I argue and I talk the book as I write it. But, you know, when I'm talking, sometimes I don't feel like I'm bringing my ideas as clearly as I'd like to. So I really think best through the form of writing. But I've always handwritten my first drafts. Now I can only handwrite because I can't type. I used to be very fast typist. Now I can't because of my stroke. So I hand write. And there's something about. Because, you know, you're younger, people who are younger, they don't even know what handwriting is anymore. It's like something that you know from. From thousands of years ago, as far as they're concerned. But when you handwrite, it's a different feeling than when you type. There's more of a direct connection between the hand and the brain than the computer. So I feel like when I'm writing, I'm kind of scratching on the page. Something that's in my ear that I'm hearing. It's getting a little bit hard to describe right now, but I'm actually going through that as I'm writing this chapter at home, which I'll be returning to when I leave here.

I love that I actually. I feel similarly, I think best when writing. And that ability to. Yeah, it's almost like an emotional transfer via the pen is hard. I mean, you could type hard on the keyboard, but you can't get outside of the lines. Right. There's some, like, sort of structural process to it that you're bound by within the computer. Whereas with a pen, you get to. This is your sword. You get to do with it as you will. You can't really constrain you. Yeah, and I always liked that. Same. Same thing. You know, it. It's funny because the last time I reread your very first book, 48 Laws of Power, it was on the computer or I guess on the iPad. And so I forgot about the.

Yeah. I don't know. The iPad or the ebook. I don't think they do include the.

They don't.

Couldn't.

Yeah.

So.

But this is so magical. It's actually astounding. More people don't copy you. In this age of everybody copying everything with this really signature margin you have that. It does almost feel like I'm talking somehow to you. And this is your personal book.

Yeah.

How did you come up with that idea?

Well, you know, it's. It's 26 years ago or more than that, 28 years ago when I started writing it. So it's. But it kind of came together in this organic way. I remember I'm Jewish and I was bar mitzvahed when I was 13 years old. And before that, you have to go to Hebrew school. You have to read the Torah in Hebrew. So I learned Hebrew. And when you read the Torah, there's the Torah, the passage from the Bible. And on the margins are commentaries of the passage written by authorities from thousands of years ago. That idea must have sunk in my head as kind of authorities on the margins kind of commenting on the material. And I've read other books that have. That have done that. It's very rare, but somehow I felt like there were these amazing fables and stories that I had researched, but I can't incorporate them in what I'm writing. I want to have several voices going on at the same time. So each of the material on the margins, which are quotes from books, they're fables. They're all. They're from all different sources. They're like a conversation that is happening with what I'm writing. I'm, like, commenting on it through them. So there'll be a famous fable from. From the ancient Greek writer Aesop's Fables, that explains in a kind of very elemental, almost childlike way, a story about power. And it relates directly to what I've written there. I just find that a very powerful form of writing. Right.

Yeah. And it sticks with you. Yeah, it does. Yeah. There was one of them. You just handed me this beautiful version of the book in its 25th anniversary edition. Is that what this is?

Well, it was 2023 was the 25th anniversary. We're already in 2025. So it came out a year and a half ago.

We are getting old. And there's this one I was going to start somewhere else, but I want to start here.

Yeah.

A story about Kissinger that involved a report that Winston Lord had worked on for days. And after giving it to Kissinger, he got it back with a notation. Is this the best you can do?

Right.

Lord rewrote and polish and finally resubmitted and came back with the same curt question. And after drafting it more time once again getting the same question from Kissinger, the Lord snapped, damn it, yes, it's the best I can do. To which Kissinger replied, fine, then I guess I'll read it this time. What, what are you imparting with that story?

Well, sometimes the best kind of communication isn't necessarily direct. So if I tell you exactly what I want, Cody, in some report or anything, you might get a little bit rebellious. You might go, hmm, I thought I'd written it perfectly. You know, if I tell you exactly what to do, you're going to be just mimicking me or something. But if you signal to somebody else that what they wrote may not be quite right, it makes them think, right. Instead of I just criticize directly. And they get all emotional and upset and you say something directly about what you didn't like. If you just say, is that the best you can do? It makes the other person go, no, maybe I can make it better. Right. It's a form of communication that's very powerful and I'm very interested in that because we're people who are too verbal. We tell people exactly what we think, exactly what we want. We give instructions to people. But if you can be clever and you can kind of indicate and you can kind of send them in a certain direction, it's a much more powerful form of communication. Kissinger was kind of a master of that. Yeah.

It's an incredible story. You know, I was pushed out of two companies before. Both times it's because I violated rule number one.

Oh. But. Well, I have, I believe I violated it several times before I wrote the book.

Interesting. So the first.

So what happened? Tell me what happened.

Well, the first rule is never outshine the master. Right. And. And both times I almost like a small child with a painting that, you know, you hand drew to give to the parent. I kind of, you know, won an award, grew a business line for another business and brought it like this little excitable child to the, the larger partner at both firms that I was working at. What kind of firms are these finance firms? Private equity. And, and basically thought that this was me showing what I'd learned and how smart I was to this person and isn't this great? And look at what we're doing. And quickly realized, oh, they wanted to be on the COVID and not me. And me Taking that I should have instead brought it to them and said, you should be on here, as opposed to taking it for myself. And so it took me literally two go rounds until I finally realized, well, what happened?

Did they fire you or.

Well, no, both times it was more subversive to your point. It was, you know, little workarounds and, you know, let's put resources to this company and not Cody's segment of the company.

Yeah, exactly.

Non direct communication. And I didn't know to play the game. I was so linear and so direct and missed so many EQ signs.

Well, you know, that's, that's what the. What's why I wrote the book. You know, I wasn't somebody who had a lot of power when I wrote the book. In fact, I was somebody didn't have any power. You know, I had many different jobs. I. I worked in Hollywood. I didn't. Wasn't very successful. But what happens with a lot of people like myself is you enter the work world. Naive. Nobody tells you anything about. These are the rules. This is how people can be so tricky and political. They have these egos that if you say the wrong thing or you step on their foot in some way, you're going to pay a price. Your parents don't tell you these stories. College professors, for God's sake, don't tell you these stories. The people your bosses never want to talk about this. Nobody wants to talk about it. So sweet, little, innocent Cody enters the work world or Robert, and you just, you're just being yourself. You just think, I'm going to impress them. Aren't, you know, just doing a good job? Isn't that what matters? No ego, politics, playing, you know, making other people look good. That is 90% of the game, especially when you're starting out. Nobody talks about. It's like a dirty little secret. Well, it's not a secret. It's really how the world works. That's what I wanted to reveal in there. So I violated law number one, because naturally, like you, I had a job on a television show. I was a researcher. And you were, you were judged by how many stories you ended up having produced through your research. I was by far the best one. I had like well over 30, where the next person had like 10 or so. Right. And I thought I was just doing fantastic. And then I was fired. And I was fired because in a meeting, the person above me was thinking, Robert has an attitude. He's not listening. He's not being respectful. She started, she started laying into me again and again. And again, until she finally fired me. I didn't understand that it wasn't about researching hard and coming up with the best material. It was about playing the game the way she would, making her look better and not me look better. I learned the hard way. And so I want other people to understand it's okay to have ideals. I don't want to make you all cynical, but you have to be realistic. You have to understand that the people you work for have an ego. And you have to feed their ego and not violate it and not make them feel insecure.

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Wow. It's so true. And I think it's hard for people to take that in because like you said, it's almost like you're violating rule number one to the masses by exposing the fact that we don't talk about this. And yet it's true.

Yeah.

And so I know you got a ton of pushback when you came out with this first book. I also saw it. I was going back through old articles with seduction, the same thing. You kind of said the quiet part out loud. And. And I was wondering, do what? When you're young, what percentage of people do you think actually realize that there is this undercurrent of how reality works that is true? Like, is this something normal for people to understand now, 25 years later, after you wrote this book? Or do people still not understand that being direct isn't always going to get you what you want?

It's, you know, if I had to put a percentage on it, and I've thought about this, and it's not scientific, by no means. I think about 5% of people actually understand these laws intuitively. And I can't explain why. I don't think it's genetic. It's just there's something to it where they understand, for instance, always say less than necessary. Law number four, they understand that if they talk less, they're not going to say something stupid. And people are going to look at them as if they have an aura of mystery. And they're powerful. They know that they don't need to read Robert's book. They Understand, it's in their DNA. And they're people who generally, you know, get very far in life. Okay. And they can often be a little bit more amoral and unethical, you know, than the rest of us. But the majority, the 95% of us, we don't know these things. Right. Because some of them are. Seem counterintuitive. One law that people have actually criticized me a lot for, I think it's number 10 is infection. Avoid the unlucky and the unfortunate. And they assume that I'm saying just avoid people who've had bad luck or who are victims. And that's not at all what I wrote. And you have to read the chapter to understand. But the idea is sometimes people enter your life and they're all dramatic and they're very charismatic and they have all these stories to tell. And usually the stories are about how somebody did something terrible to them. They're the victim, right? There's all this drama surrounding their lives and it seems kind of interesting. And you become their friend, right? And slowly, slowly you get embroiled in all of their drama. They have arguments with you, they turn against you, then they reconcile and you find yourself getting infected with their ugly energy. And down and down and down you go. It's counterintuitive to think that somebody who's super dramatic is actually masking, they're creating the drama that is surrounding them. We don't think that way. And I'm trying to show that you have to be a little bit wary about people. You can't just take them at face value.

Well, you know, you've, you're shaking your.

Head like you've had that experience.

Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, not only have I had the experience, I've. Well, there's a lot of data that supports it. Right. You know, there's data now that shows. I saw a study done on a thousand companies where if you sit within a 25 square foot radius of somebody who's considered a high performer, you're 15% more likely to outperform. And if you sit next to a low performer, you are 30% more likely to underperform. And so there's actually even just a more aggressive downside to those who are negative or infectious in that way. And I was wondering, when you start researching this, where do you think, where is the data the most important? And where is history most important? Because in all of your works, it seems like there's an interweaving of the two. You know, there's a throwback to Churchill And a story about World War II. And then there's also the scientific data that we cover about findings and studies that show the reality.

Well, back when I wrote the 48 laws of power, there wasn't really the Internet. And the studies about power, if you can do studies about power and have data, weren't very. There weren't very many of them. Right. So I had to go through a pretty intensive research process. Hundreds of books, reading all about the most famous people, you know, like a Kissinger. And that was my form of data.

Yeah.

So when I read all these stories of very powerful people, kings, queens, courtesans, financiers, you know, the whole slew of them, I'd see trends, and that trend would signal to me a reality about human nature. So the two are. Are interwoven. My research and my going through history was the evidence, was the scientific material that I based it on, as well as my own experience. So I, you know, I've said it before, but prior to writing the 48 laws of power, I was not a successful person, I have to admit. I had 50, at least 50, 60 different jobs. My wife and I once counted, and we went back, and I think there's even more that I forgot. And I had so many bad bosses, so many people who were so political, so stupid, so incompetent. Not all of them, of course, that I had all of this material. Right. I had stored up all of these stories in my blood about these people who were so manipulative, and I had studied them and I. And I had the pain inside of me of having made these mistakes. So the book is a combination of my own kind of personal pain about the work world. It's not all bad. There were some great things, too. My own personal pain and this deep level of research. So if I found a story from 3,000 years ago from ancient China, that revealed something about one of the laws and I saw something in the 1970s, I go, well, there's something very true, very real about it. There's something deep in human nature that confirms this particular law. So does that answer your question?

Yeah. Yeah. You're almost like an anthropologist in a way, kind of going back through human nature over the decades. Yeah, well, over the centuries. What about. Do you think. Do you think that those who are maybe how they would be labeled today, narcissists or sociopaths or dark triad, Are they the type of people that understand this undercurrent of humanity better than a normal person? A quote, unquote. I don't even know What a normal person is. But do the darker aspects or. Or avatars of human nature, do they understand these laws more than a normal person?

That. I made that comment earlier that there. That some of that 5% may be people who are. Who are what you're. You're talking about. I don't think all of them are. I don't think everybody who's really good at power and has a good feel for it has these dark qualities. It's a mix of things. But there's a very famous. There's not a. There's a man who's quite well known on the Internet. About 15 years ago, I don't know where he is now, named Sam Vacman. I don't know if you've heard of him. Sam Vacman admitted that he was an incredible narcissist. A very dangerous, dark narcissist who manipulated people terribly. And he came to a point where he saw this about himself and he realized he can't control it. This is who I am, but I'm going to educate everybody about what narcissism is. And he's very brilliant and his self analysis is extremely accurate. But the thing is, he's very rare. So people who are like this, they don't think that they're narcissists. They don't think that they're evil. They don't think that what they're doing is manipulative or they're even operating by laws. They. These are just things that come naturally to them. So, you know, that makes it easier for them to do the things that they do. Right. So, you know, and so not all of us. I don't want to imply that in doing this book, you're going to turn into a narcissist. You're going to turn it. You're going to have to have these very dark qualities. You know, it's just that you want to be aware of them. So these other people, they're not aware that they're behaving this way. I don't want you to crush your enemy totally. I want you to be aware that that happens in business all the time. And not be naive with your company that you've. As an entrepreneur, this business that you created, at this very moment, there are vultures circling around who are going to buy your business out and crush you. Because that's how business works. Right? It's a merciless environment. I don't want you to be like that. I want you to be aware of it. I want you to be aware that there are people like that out there. That is sort of the point of the world book.

One of the lines, I don't think it's a law per se, and I can't remember which one it was related to, that I go back to often, is Sun Tzu's give them a golden bridge. Give them a golden bridge on which to retreat. And I can't tell you how many times I've used in deals and in business, the opposite of what you just said, which is crush your opponent, which would be like a positive aspect from this book, and persuasion, which is actually for your enemy. Let them look like they have a win. And that's like a beautiful way to actually do the opposite of what you said. And I've gotten out of many of a deal because of you. Actually, I owe you some checks.

Really? How are you applying that? I'm not quite sure I understand.

So, like, for instance, we had a deal that we wanted to close, and the guy had committed a little fraud. He had done a few things inside of the business.

On your side or the other side?

On the other side, yeah. So we had done a transaction. They had said a bunch of things on paper were X and Y and Z. And then once we had dug in, we were like, ooh, that's not correct. So whether it was, you know, that they realized it or had written the numbers incorrectly, who could tell? And one side of us wanted to do, you know, we wanted to go do a lawsuit. So one of my partners was like, well, we have them. This is incorrect. We could own way more of the company. Let's go after them. But instead of doing that, we kind of said who? We think there was a miss up, a mess up in these numbers, and somebody wrote it incorrectly. And it's not a big deal. We can work around this. We've got to change the math a little bit on how much of the company we get. But, you know, actually, I think we can just change this number. You guys can walk away. We can walk away. And so we gave them this kind of golden bridge on which to retreat. We could have sued them.

You mean you cut off the deal?

Yeah, we kept the company and kept some economics, but let them walk away without a lawsuit, huh? And that.

I don't mean you were buying them out.

Yeah.

Huh.

And I think a lot of your book, people talk about the manipulative nature of it, but I don't think that's always the case.

No, no, definitely not.

There's a lot of really beautiful aspects of the book that are so relevant to business.

Yeah. I mean, if you're alienating everybody, if you're crushing all of these people, if you're just having lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit, there'll be a bounce back effect where you won't have many allies next time you're in trouble. Right. People will resent you, you'll have more enemies on the horizon. And when you slip up in this media crazy era, all those enemies will suddenly come out of the woodwork and they'll be on social media and you know, the mobs will come after you and you'll suffer for it. So there's an aspect of power where you have to play the soft game. We have to please as many people as possible, make allies, make them think that they're doing what they want, but in fact they're doing what you want, which is the art of seduction itself. You know, and so, you know, that is a, that's a huge part of the power game. It's not all about. It's not a book about being aggressive and violent and pushing people around. It's the opposite. It's giving the impression that you're a nice, generous person, but that somehow you get people to kind of do what you want through being clever.

For young people today who maybe are not even going to be able to get through this whole book or persuasion given attention spans, what do you think is the most underrated human truth that a young person should know who wants control or power?

Well, you know, it's a good question. I mean, there's many aspects. You mean like a particular law of.

Power or could be, or it could be something that sits with you that you're like, I want to talk about this more. I think young people should think about this more.

Well, okay. Well, what I would say is the most important skill that you can have in the work world, in the business world and in life is knowing how to observe people and not be so wrapped up in yourself and be outer, directed. So when you're in a situation like you've entered a job for the first time, your tendency is to be all insecure and think, did I say the wrong thing? Am I doing? Am I dressing correctly? Am I fitting in? And you're not observing, you're thinking about yourself. Right? And the whole game is to be observing. It's like you're observing the world, the different games that are going on, what people are doing, what they're like, their tastes are like, what the boss is like. There are all these levels of power going on. You Want to get outside of yourself and simply observe. Right. And not be thinking about yourself as much. And if you become a really good observer of people, which is something that I developed over all of these different jobs that I had, I wasn't necessarily the best person figuring out the game, but I was very observant about people and their nature and their flaws and such. If you become an astute observer of the people around you, you will have this. The game will be much easier to, to manage. Right. You will know this is a person who is insecure. I cannot offend them. I cannot say the right, the wrong thing to them. This is a person who's strong and secure. I want to be with them. I want them to mentor me. They can, you know, you want to be able to take criticism from other people. In other words, be less insecure and be more a kind of outer, motivated and paying attention to the people around you.

And so it sounds like sort of half the battle is sort of naming what other people are so saying like, oh, this, this happened. Robert did this thing which tells me he cares about how he's perceived. Perception and relevance is important to Robert. So I'm going to name a person like that, right? And so often when you're young, you're just thinking, I, I, I, me, me, me. You don't even know to name another.

Right.

Interesting.

Well, the thing also that you want to understand is everything is a sign. So when you're observing, another thing is enjoy this aspect of it because it's actually a lot of fun. It's like watching a movie and observing people and understanding them. But everything people do is a sign. So if they showing up late at meetings or they're not returning your phone calls, it's not some innocent event, it means something. It's coming from some place within them. They're telling you something about themselves indirectly. If their desk is a mess, right? They can't organize their desk. It's a sign of something else going on inside them, right. If they, if they're not returning your phone calls, on and on and on. Every little thing that people do, I sometimes when I read an email, I can sense that there's a little bit of anger as an undertone. You can sense people's tone not just in what they say, but in how they write something, right. There's a lack. There's not this usual kind of polite tone. There's a little bit of a sharpness. There's a word or two that indicates that they're upset, they're angry. Every little thing that people do is a sign you're not paranoid because it's actually a lot of fun and you're decoding what's going on. Because people wear masks, they smile and they say, I love your ideas, Cody. You're brilliant, you're wonderful. But inside they're thinking something else. And you have to be able to pick up all of these signs.

Yeah. It seems like a lot of us have lost a lot of that gut intuition. Like we don't. We're told to not trust your first instinct.

Yeah.

You know, we're told to not cross the street when we feel a certain way because that could be rude to somebody else. We're sort of continuously being told to mask this feeling we get in our gut. How do you reopen that again? Like if you're sitting in a room with a bunch of people in the workplace and you're trying to figure out how to play this game, what is the mental game Robert plays to sort of pick up these undercurrents that somebody might not be able to see?

Well, I wrote a book called the Laws of Human Nature, sort of my last book, and I have a very long chapter in there about non verbal communication. And it's extremely important skill to develop. And what that means is people can say anything they want to with words. In fact, they generally do. They never really exactly say what's on their mind. That's how it is in the social world. Because if you said what was exactly on your mind, you would be offending a lot of people. Right. So we don't ever really say exactly what we feel. But our body language does not lie. It's very difficult to lie with your body language. Even the finest actors in the world find it very difficult to lie with their voice because the voice reveals people's feelings. Right. So you want to be observant. We're very good at picking these kind of cues up. So you may not realize it, but you sense that something is wrong about this person that you've just met. This is something that in the. I talk a lot about in the Art of Seduction. I've dealt with with women who've written me back. They had a gut feeling that this man that they met was wrong. There was something bad about him. They got a bad feeling from it. But what happens is you don't trust that feeling. And then because you're not, as you say, in our culture, it's not something that we value. And then we go on, we have a relationship, and then we find the hard Way out that our original gut instinct was the correct one. So you want to trust these feelings. They're very valuable. We are animals. We think we're all so intellectual. We've got our frontal cortex that governs everything. But inside we operate on emotions, on instincts, on feelings, on sensations. It's a nonverbal form of communication. It comes out in people's gestures and how they move, how they stand. Right. They're at a party, you're talking to them, but their feet are pointing in a different direction. They're not so interested in you. Their eyes reveal if they're really listening to you or not. A real smile lights up the whole face. A fake smile is all kind of tight. That's wonderful. I really like. Right, yeah. On and on and on. It's insane language. You can understand exactly what people are thinking, but you have to do this to be able to reach this kind of level of understanding. You have to shut off your own mind. You have to shut off all your internal chatter and you have to observe and you have to see. You know exactly what. Try and read and detect what that particular sign means. And you won't believe how often you are very accurate with it. You can detect people's resentment, people's envy. And I, as I said, I wrote a whole chapter about signs that you can look at tomorrow and learned about this language. It's just that you're not paying attention and you don't value this form because we're so verbal. We think everything has to do with words. But doesn't.

Yeah. You know, you said seduction is a form of deception, but people want to be led astray.

Yeah.

What do you mean by that?

Well, when you're a child, you, you were kind of really interested in stories, right. We're all, we still are interested in stories. But what you like about stories from a very early age is the fact that a writer is leading you in a certain direction. But you don't know where they're going, where they're taking you. Right. And you want to be led and they're creating an illusion and they're taking you along this journey. Okay. And so they're seducing you through a story. And you can call it lies, you can call it fantasy, you can call it illusion, but reality is kind of harsh, it's kind of difficult. And we all want more pleasure in our life. That's why we go and see movies. That's why Hollywood is so successful. We want to be taken out of our day to day lives. We want to be led. We actually want to be deceived. We want illusion, we want fantasy, we want pleasure. And so you want to be the person that's supplying that fantasy, that's giving people that pleasure, because if you do, it gives you a lot of power, right?

Yeah. It's so true. And yet not said ever, which I feel like is a consistent thread through all of your books. It's. Where's the quiet part that we can say out loud that we shouldn't say out loud in every single segment of our life, which I love. And it also. Another line of yours that I love is we, when you meet a swordsman, draw your sword. Do not recite poetry to one who is not a poet.

Those aren't my words. That's somebody else's. But, yeah, you've got to know the people that you're dealing with, right? And you have to understand, as you said, you're naming these people, which is the way you put it, which is a very good way of putting it. And some people are vultures. Some people you can't trust. Some people are tricky. And if you treat them as if they are somebody that you could trust, you're going to be in a lot of trouble. Okay? So you have to understand who the people are that you're dealing with. What is their nature? You know, are they somebody that you can actually trust? And sometimes you think that you can trust them because you're not really paying attention. You're not paying attention to those gut things that we're talking about. So I think that comes from a chapter about know who you're dealing with and know exactly the kind of energy that you're getting from people so that you. You're not dealing with a swordsman and reciting poetry, in which case you're going to get, you know, stabbed and killed. You have to know each person that you deal with.

You know, you're really a student of history in so many ways and human nature in that vein. It seems like today more than ever, we value directness and transparency. And they're very direct, and they're authentic, and authenticity wins. And this is sort of this narrative of today. Has that actually always been the narrative? Like, have humans always said, we want to be authentic and dereal and wrecked? So this is kind of a new phenomenon, even though it might not be true?

Well, it's a pattern. So history goes in patterns, so I'm not going to bore you with too many history lessons, but in the 18th century, the theater was the. Was the main metaphor for being Social. So you never wanted to be exactly yourself. You were playing a role when you entered in the social world. When you entered a cafe, you were playing a part. You were an actor in a play. You didn't want to reveal who you really were. It was the opposite. And then later there was a reaction against that in the early 19th century among the Romantic movement, where we have to be authentic. We can't be. We can't wear these masks anymore. It goes back and forth, back and forth, back and forth throughout history. So right now it's all about being authentic. In 10, 20 years, people are going to react against that and they're going to be more into fantasy and role playing and wearing those masks and having fun in the social environment. But I would say to this is nobody is ever authentic. It's a myth. It's bullshit, in fact, and it kind of is annoying because to be a human being is to be social and is to wear a mask is to be an actor. As I said, nobody ever tells you exactly what they think. That person that you think is so authentic is actually creating the effect of authenticity. They know how to act like that. Right. But they're not saying or doing exactly what's going on in their mind. So understand that we're all actors from a very early age. As children, we are learning to play a part, how to please people, how to make them like us, how to say the right things. So the person that seems to be authentic is actually playing that part of being authentic.

So if somebody called you authentic, would you like that? Is that a compliment?

Well, yeah, I think it's a compliment. I mean, there are degrees, don't get me wrong. There are people who are very fake in this world, and there's absolutely nothing authentic. So the person that we perceive as authentic, there's 40, 50% of them, is actually true, is actually coming out. They're not faking it. But I'm never. What I'm trying to say is they're not a hundred percent authentic. There is always an element of playing it up, of laying it on a little bit thicker, of trying to look a little bit more authentic. I'm not saying it's completely fake.

Yeah.

But there's an element of role playing in it.

And I guess maybe it also is just like a play, as you mentioned, because if somebody is authentic, what you really say is you're playing your part very well. That appears to be who you are. You're a great actor.

Yeah.

And if somebody's fake, what you're really saying Is you're not doing so great. I can see right through whatever mask this is. It's uninteresting.

Yeah. Actually, you put it very well.

That's fascinating. I've never thought about it that way. I also.

I mean. I mean, there are. There are politicians who we think are authentic. And I see them on television and I go, God, no, they're not authentic at all. They're just really good at giving the appearance of being authentic. They know what they're doing. They've learned over the years by various successes and failures and trial and error that this is what gives the impression of being authentic.

Yeah. Yeah. We were in a room at a political fundraiser for somebody that I actually think has done a good job as being a politician. But then he answered a question, which is the question was, who is your biggest role model in the world? Who do you look up more to than anyone else? And his answer was, you know, his mother. And this sort of story about his mother that just came off so scripted.

Yeah.

It almost negated everything he had done prior and the fact that I even liked his policies.

Yeah. Yeah.

And so the downward or the downside of even a moment of pure bad acting or fakeness.

Yeah.

Can be actually quite large.

Yeah.

So if you don't know how to play, which kind of. There's another line, and I don't know if this is yours or. Or from a quote, but the most ethical thing you can do is win. And to win, you have to play the game better than the villains.

That's for me.

Yeah. This is from your Twitter. What do you think about this line? What do you think is meant by that? To win, you have to play the power game better than the villains.

Well, so I'm not sure because it's not exactly something I've ever written, but what I think the person who wrote that is trying to say, my social media guy, who I'm gonna have to talk to after this. What I think I'm trying to say is you out there are probably a little bit naive, as most of us are. Like, I was right. And there are other people out there who aren't as ethical as you are. They play the game differently. Right. They're not so concerned with the rules. They bend the rules, and you obey the rules. Right. And they have the advantage over you because they're willing to do more than you're willing to do. You have to learn a little bit about their game. You have to play a little bit about what they're doing. You have to play a Little bit of hardball back at them. And you have to do it better. Because what's wrong with a lot of villains are. Is they're actually not as smart as you think. They're operating on emotion. They're pushing people around. They're powerful. They think they're so great. They're egotistical, they're grandiose. They think that they can't do no wrong. You need to be strategic in dealing with people who are manipulative. If you can be strategic, then you have the upper hand. Right. Because I don't think a lot of times villains aren't as strategic as you think. I think that's what I meant.

And a lot of times it seems like we. We just act. We don't actually think about what our actions are. We sit, we speak. We don't think about what we speak. We're sort of this. This, you know, hit. Hit a knee. Hit yourself on the knee. And you have reflex. Yeah, this reflex action. And so if you're a type of person who overlays man, 10 or 20% of. Let me ponder my interpersonal communication more than the next person, you might win more often.

That's right. Right. I mean, I look around me and I think the. The main fault I see in reading the news and in dealing with people is they don't think long term. They're just reacting in the moment. And in the book. I wrote a book about strategy, my version of the Art of war called the 33 strategies of war. And I call this tactical hell. As opposed to being strategic in life, Tactical hell is you're continually just reacting to what other people are doing. If you can lift your head out of the moment and think a few steps ahead and think, what is it that will actually bring me success? Not just immediately against this person, but three or four steps down the road. Elevate your mind above the battlefield and think ahead and game it out. And sometimes what you think is going to work immediately is actually the worst thing you can do. I've taken a political example right now that's in the news, and it had to do with the recent possible shutdown of the government. And Chuck Schumer, as we all know, eventually folded and he agreed not to shut it down, and he voted for the budget, and he said that the shutdown would have been the worst thing that could have happened. Okay. But in strategic thinking, which is something that I study very deeply, that was definitely the wrong move to make. It was reacting. It was being tactical and not being strategic. When you have leverage in a situation, in any situation in life, you have to use your leverage. And what a lot of people do, they're afraid of the leverage that they have. They're afraid they're going to offend the other person. They're afraid they're going to go too far and they, they kind of compromise and they don't use what they actually have. And what that signals is, you're weak. We can play you. And the next time around we're going to negotiate the hell out of you. We're going to beat you. Okay. You have to signal to people sometimes that you're going to use your leverage, that even if it means something bad is going to happen, like a shutdown, I'm signaling to you that I'm not weak, that the next time around you have to negotiate with me. That's long term thinking. That's getting out of the immediate reaction, going, the bigger game is long term. Right. And I want to. There's going to be more and more situations where you're going to be conflicting. You want to signal to them that you're not a pushover, that you can resist them, that there's something else going on.

Yeah, it's. It's such a superpower and it's so hard to do. I remember the first couple deals I did, I was scared. I didn't realize. You said it perfectly, which is you're scared of your own leverage. And I think it's also you're scared of people not liking you.

Yeah.

It feels like especially today, likability is another thing we want. We want authenticity because we think that it will make people like us. And if we're not liked, we think that that is bad. Whereas, you know, the, the guy on the other half of this book, Machiavelli, famously, he was the one that said it is better to be feared than loved. Right. Do you think that's true?

It's. It depends on your situation. The thing, the reason why Machiavelli wrote that is if people love you, love is very ephemeral thing. So people can like you and love you, and that's great. But the next day something happens and they don't like you as much. You don't do something that pleases them as much and that love turns into something else. But if they fear you, that fear ain't going away. It's strong, it's stable, it's there. They can't change it because they know that if they cross the line, they're going to pay a price. You're going to hit them, whatever it is. Right. So fear is much more stable, it's much more powerful. But you can go too far. If you're an employee, employer of a company and everybody's afraid of you, then they're not going to tell you the truth. They're going to, they're going to nuance everything that they say to you. So you're going to be, you're not going to know what's really happening in the world. Everyone's going to give you news that's going to, that they think is going to what you want to hear. They're not going to tell you what you need to hear. They're not going to be as creative, they're not going to share their own ideas. So you can go too far with that. Right. So for specific situations, I always tell people and clients that I consult with, you want to have the touch of fear. You want them to think that if they mess with you, they're going to pay a price, that they can't push you around. That's not the only thing they fear feel about you. They do like you. But there's a little undercurrent of, I respect that person and if I don't do certain things, I'm going to pay a price for that.

Interesting. So in practice, would that be something like. I remember reading Netflix's sort of their manifesto on how to run a business. And they, they kind of famously wrote this PowerPoint about it and shared it. And they had a. They basically had a zero policy policy, which is like, they tried to have almost no rules at Netflix. And they were like, we trust you guys to be employees. You can take as much time off as you want to. You can spend whatever you want. No hotel minimums, no plane costs. If you think you need first trust or first, first class, take it. And so that was their policy. But the way that they enforced it was interesting because they said, do whatever you want as long as it's in the best interest of Netflix. And so how I think they enforced it would be like exclamation points of fear. So they basically would say, well, this person spent a bunch of money on themselves and, you know, didn't go to meetings that they said that they went to that was thus not in the best interest of Netflix. And then they would sort of publicly fire this person and talk about it and say, this is why this person was fired. So is that like, is that an example of how to be. Yes, we can be generally loved from having this wonderful open policy but upon, you know, somebody doing something wrong, exclamation, point of fear is, this person was fired. And we will do a public showing of it.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's very powerful. I've seen that in sports. Vince Lombardi, who was a great coach of the Green Bay packers back in the 60s, probably one of the greatest football coaches ever, he had a policy of treating everybody equally. There were no stars on the team, even though there were players who were better than others. Everybody got the same equal treatment, which made the people who weren't making as much money feel very good. And it sort of created a team spirit. But if one person stepped out of that, if one person did something that was showed that they weren't being part of the team. Right. That they had an ego, he would punish them really hard. He set an example. And so what you want is you want a cohesive team, you want a group of people around you who are all working on the same page. But if you spoil them, if you let them do whatever they want, then they will do whatever they want. But if ever, occasionally you set an example, you punish someone, you show that there are limits to what they can do. It's a very, very effective means of management, of controlling people, of giving them leeway. Because you want people to be creative, you want people to enjoy their work. It's something that I practice as well with people who work for me occasionally. I want you to know that there are limits. You cross them, I will get really upset with you. Right. But generally I try to be very nice. But that occasional use of the whip is much more effective than if you're whipping people all of the time or if you have no whip at all in your hand.

Yeah, kind of like Pavlov's dog. At some point, if you just keep shocking them consistently, they just lay down.

Yeah, yeah.

Interesting. So right now you're writing a new book.

Yes.

What are you obsessing on currently? Like, what is in that mind of yours today?

Well, I'm. I'm finishing a chapter. It's a book about the sublime, which is, you know, I had a stroke and I had a near death experience. I came very close to dying. Somebody basically saved my life, my wife did. And I maintain that that kind of experience changes you, changes how you look at life. The things that you took for granted, you no longer take for granted. And so when I look at the world, when I'm being alive, just being alive as I am right now, it's actually a very strange feeling to be alive because I came very close to death. And it made me realize that despite all the horrible things that are going on in the world, it's actually incredibly insane that we humans are at this moment in history. That in the course of 30,000 years we went from being, you know, whatever we were to having all this incredible power. We are these insane animals. This consciousness that we have is this unbelievable gift. We have these brains that are by far the most complex organisms in, in the universe. Scientists, scientists have demonstrated that, but we're not aware of any of these things. We take it all for granted. And it's a book that's trying to open your eyes up to all of the sublime aspects of just being alive, of the history of the cosmos, of ancient history, of what it was like when we were children, of how our brains are formed, about our relationship with animals who are have consciousness that we can interact with other species with love, and how sublime love can be with history, with death itself. And so it's a book that's kind of making me feel better about all of my limitations. But I want the readers to go away and think differently about what it means to be able to transform them. And so the chapter that I'm writing now, that I'm going into just now is about willpower and energy and how we have capabilities that we don't even tap into, that we're only using a small part of our brain, that we're only using a tenth of the energy that we actually have. Right. It's our minds that are holding us back and that we're gifted with these powers that are, that are not being used. And I have examples of, of humans who've been in situations that are incredibly stressful, incredibly difficult, and they overcame them. They were able to tap into those powers because they were facing death. Essentially. They were facing something very terrible. And a kind of courage came up, came to them. So there's like a story of a plane crash in the Andes. And in the worst part of the antes and the mountains in the middle of winter, and these boys who are on a rugby team, they somehow manage in the course of three months to save their lives, more than half of them died. But how they did it, the guy who narrates the story is so incredible that anybody who afterwards, when people said it's absolutely impossible what you did, you climbed these 18,000 foot mountains that even mountain climbers can't climb, and you did it without any equipment. It was, he called it a miracle. And so we have these powers that we're not Even aware of and circumstances will force us upon. Force them upon us. So if you're facing stress, if you're facing difficulty, you will feel this other energy that flows through you. That's very human, that's very powerful. So that's what I'm writing about now. And that's what I'm kind of fascinated about.

Interesting. You know, it's actually funny because I was thinking about what does somebody like you, who's such a prolific writer, who's written these books that.

Well, I'm not very prolific, actually. I take four or five years to write a book.

Well, that's true.

I wish I were prolific.

You are, instead, a very profound writer.

Okay, thank you.

Okay, I'll meet you on that one. So you're a very profound writer. You write these deep works. I imagine there are moments where you feel uninspired.

Tell me about it.

And you need to dive in. Is there something that you do when you are feeling absolutely no way you can write well?

You know, it's almost a question that makes me want to cry. I'm so sorry. But before I had my stroke, I wrote seven books. And I would get those moments. And what I would do was I had to get out of my mind. And I would go take a hike up into the park and all these great ideas would come to me. Or I would go for a long swim because I was into long distance swimming. And then I'd come out of the pool and wow, my mind was just sparkling with ideas. I can't do any of it now. I can't hike, I can't swim. I can't do the things that got me out of my mind and my body. And I'm writing a book that has to be exciting, that has to excite the reader. Every single page, every word. I can't write a dull book about the sublime. So what I do is I have to go through. I have to work on my head. And so I'm sitting there writing this thing and it's not coming out right. I have to step back and I have to put myself in the mood, and I have to go. This is an incredible privilege you have, Robert, to write this book. Let's get into the spirit of it. Let's feel what you're trying to write. Let's not be intellectual. Let's not write something. Let's feel it first and then write it. I have to go through a process. I have to listen to some music. I have to look at my cat who's walking by. I have to Talk to my, you know, just look at my wife or see something and then I feel it and then I can write it. But it is difficult because all of those things that I depended on before, I don't have. So just like I said, when life turns against you, you have to adapt, you have to learn. It brings the best out of you sometimes because we're normally, we're in a rut. Things are so familiar, we don't work on ourselves. But when things turn bad, like they turn bad for me, you have to change, you have to adapt, you have to become a different person. And it makes you grow and it makes you learn, which is what I've had to do. I have to. I have to force myself to be inspired. Literally.

Wow. And in a completely new way. It's hard enough.

Yeah.

Even to do it the way that you've done it for decades, but to find a completely new way. It's fascinating. Yeah. And I guess you, the universe kind of keeps pushing you to become the next level of the game player.

Well, you know, the sublime is a concept that I've kind of created. But there are books, my way of thinking about. There are books that are out there about the concept, but they are so dry, they're so intellectual, they're so like academic speak all this jargon that they're so unsublime. Right. I want this book for people to read it and really feel it and feel like there's an experience out there that they can have. And I'll tell you one thing, Cody, when I first thought of writing the book, which was 16, 17 years ago, before I had my near death experience, I was going to go cross the Gobi desert. I was going to go to Tierra del Fuego in Antarctica. I was going to see all the sublime parts of the planet. I was going to swim with dolphins. And I was going to experience this all and write about it. And here I am. When I finally get the chance to write the book. I can't do any of those things. Things. But the book will be better for that. That's what life is about. I call it amor fatih. The things that happen. You are the best things that could ever happen to you. So having my stroke made the book better because I can't do those things. But 99% of my readers won't be able to do them. I'm showing you how you can have. You can look at life sitting in your office, sitting in your chair, having your breakfast, and you can have these experiences in your day to Day life. You don't have to do things that are extraordinary.

Yeah.

Because life is extraordinary.

God, it's so beautiful.

Yeah.

You know, it reminds me. Do you like Bukowski at all?

Very much.

Me too. I mean, I like the Kazakhski, but I love that about him. You don't think so? A little bit, no.

He's a wonderful guy. He's a local LA people I knew people who knew him.

Oh, that. Really?

Yes.

Oh, I'm going to be such a nerd about it. His. His. Like the poem that he did on becoming a writer. Was that what it was? And it's how he talks about. Well, actually, I have a quote in here, from him, I think. Yeah. The. I remember when I was writing my book, but then when I write the stuff that I only write for me, you know. Do you ever do that where you just write things that nobody will ever see?

Yeah. And hopefully nobody will ever see.

But I loved that part where he's like, if it doesn't come bursting out of you in spite of everything, don't do it. Unless it comes unass out of your heart and your mind and your mouth and your gut, don't do it. And how he talks about the libraries of the world have yawned with books such as yours. I always loved that because it's. It's basically him anti selling the entire time. So he's saying, don't write. Like, don't write. We don't need another book that has no purpose except for your ego.

Yeah.

Like, only. Right. If it comes bursting out of you. If it would. If it would kill you to not put pen to paper.

Right.

Which it sounds like this is that book for you. You're like. You have. You feel like you have to write it.

Well, you know, I guess I'm maybe slightly neurotic in that, you know, or a hypochondriac. I always think that I am going to die, like some illness or that I'm going to have an accident and the book will never get finished. And so I tell my wife, if I'm dead, this is how I want to finish it. You know, I'm not, you know. I know these aren't great things about me.

Have you always been like that?

Yeah. Yeah. So this book I have to finish, I can't let myself die before I finish it because it means that much to me, you know, and so sometimes I. I'm a little bit of a daredevil in that I used to. My hiking and swimming and mountain biking. I would do things that were a Little bit risky, because I like that. And so now I have. This is. This is so silly. I don't even know why I'm going into it, but I have a special bike that I can use because I can't ride a normal bike. It's my only outlet in life is this recumbent bike. And I go whipping down these hills. You can't pass cars and everything. And I decided, I don't want to do this today, Robert, because you might get crushed by a car. And then your book is finished. But then I forced myself to do it anyway. But this is a book that I have to get out. And I'm on chapter 11, and they're 12 chapters, so I just have to live another nine months and I'll be okay.

I'd like a little bit longer, but I like. Does your wife laugh when you say that?

Yes, she knows. She's been putting up with it a long time.

For a long time. It's funny because you also have a line that's like, never whine, never complain, never try to justify yourself. And it seems like you live that a bit, too. What does that mean? Why do you tell people that? Never whine, never complain, never justify.

Senseless nothing. There's nothing to complain about. Everything happens for a purpose. Yeah. In the moment when. When something. Somebody does something irritating, my first instinct is to complain and even whine a little bit. But then I calm down and I go, it's not important. It doesn't matter. You don't need to complain about this. In fact, there's something good about it. So this morning, to give you an example, I'm meditating, right? I meditate every morning. That helps me a lot. And there's noise going on that's kind of interrupting my thoughts. God damn it. I want to yell at that person. And I'm meditating. You have to have a thought like that when you're meditating. Then it makes me go, no, Robert, it's just a noise. Just think of it as birds singing. Calm down. Don't be upset. It's actually training you to not get upset. So the bad things that happen to you are training you to not take them so seriously or to find a way to use them. Nothing is ever really bad. People often ask me in these interviews, if you were 20 years old and you knew who was gonna have to your life, would you go back and tell yourself something and do something differently than the way you did it, you know? Or do you have any regrets, Robert? I have no regrets. I wouldn't change anything because everything happened for a purpose. Everything lined itself up for a reason. And it all came out the way it should have come out because I embraced it and I found a way to learn something from it. So even when I had a bad job, my attitude was, I'm gonna learn about people. I'm gonna learn about what I hate and what I love. There's no wasted time in life.

It's such a good point. I saw this meme the other day that reminds me of your bird song. I don't know if you've seen it. It was.

You saw what a meme, you know.

Like a little graphic. And in it, it was this woman in her window and she's looking outside and birds are singing and she's like, the bird song, it's so beautiful. Right? And then it was the two birds, and it was one bird yelling at the other bird, I've eaten all your children. I'll be back next year for the next round.

And that's pretty good.

It made me kind of chuckle because the perspective from the woman was, this is lovely. I have learned to associate birdsong with something magical. And the birds are simultaneously murdering each other, and that's their language. And so it kind of takes me to that idea of nothing is good or bad except really by comparison. And it sounds like you've lived that.

Yeah, I mean, you know, if I had to think of one thing that's wrong about. About humans or about us is that we think too much. We over analyze everything and in over analyzing and thinking too much, we ruin things. We ruin what could be good, what could be pleasurable, what's normal. So if we think and think and think, I think we're inevitably going to find something negative to uncover about that. So, you know, we. We think and we create things that are good or bad or whatever, but they're just things that happen. They're not good or bad. They just are events that happen and we think of them and we make them what we want to make them.

Yeah. You know, this is something in your book seduction, but kind of a theme throughout them. You had this idea of anti seductive, which I had never thought of this before. What is somebody who is anti seductive like?

Well, I hope you're not one of them. No, I don't think so.

Depends to who, I bet.

Well, you know how some people are good seducers and it could be not just for sex. It could be socially or politically. They're very calm, they know how to tell a good story, they have charisma. They have energy, their face lights up, they know how to say the right things and they, they attract you. Okay, but there are people who do the opposite. They say the wrong things, they do the wrong things, they dress the wrong way, they take you to the wrong places, they repel you. They are anti seductive. Nobody wants to be around them. Right, and so what are the qualities that make a person anti seductive? So one of them are people who talk too much, who are always bragging, who always have a story to tell. You know, in the realm of seduction, women often complain of men who explain. They explain everything. They explain exactly what you're doing, what you mean. Right. They call it mansplaining. Okay, so people who tell you everything we're doing, 95% of the talking, they don't think they are. They're extremely anti seductive. People who moralize, who tell you you're wrong, this is what you need to do. This is what's good, this is what's bad. That's anti seductive. Right? They preach to you. People who are always bragging about themselves, like they're so great. That's a very anti seductive quality. I think being vulgar is an anti seductive quality because it's like you have no self control. You don't look at yourself and realize what you're saying or what you're. How you're dressing or how you're looking is actually kind of off putting. Right? So a seductive person is self aware. They're self aware of their body language, of, of, you know, the clothes that they wear, of how they talk. The anti seductive person has no self awareness. They enter life. They don't look in a mirror, they don't think, think about what they're saying. They just think they're being natural and they offend a lot of people. Rince takes your laundry and hand delivers it to your door, expertly cleaned and folded, so you could take the time once spent folding and sorting and waiting to finally pursue a whole new version of you. Like tea time, you. Mmm. Or this tea time you. Or even this tea time you said you hear about Dave. Or even tea time. Tea time, tea time, you. Mm.

So update on Dave.

It's up to you. We'll take the laundry rinse. It's time to be great.

Yeah, we've def. I've definitely met all those types and been all of those types at varying points as well.

No, you have.

I try not to.

I don't believe that.

Well, I think, you know, I think as you get older, like a little bit, you start to realize, oh, you know, that story isn't, isn't so necessary to share so broadly. Like being so loud isn't so necessary all the time. You know, just the other day we were talking about how even being too familiar can be in some ways anti seductive.

Yeah.

And that's kind of what you go back, you, you talked about before, which is this little bit of. There's almost like a, some sort of removal, a slight, what would you call that?

A little bit of air. Mystery.

Yeah.

So I know I was talking to a celebrity. I won't mention names. Who is saying, Robert, you talk in seduction about mystery, but in the era of social media, you have to be out there all of the time. Right. You talk in the, in the 48 laws of power of creating distance and absence, using absence to create respect and honor, which is one of the laws. How do you do that in the era of social media? You always have to be out there. You have to be familiar. And I say if you do too much of that, I'm not going to use her name. People will become so familiar with you that you're going to lose that aura of being a celebrity. They're going to take you for granted. And you might shine for a year with being out there and having all of your posts and doing all these things, but after a year, they'll find somebody new who they haven't seen before and you're not so new anymore and they'll find them and they'll leave you and it'll be very painful for you. You have to keep people on their heels. They can't know everything about you. And what I said is disappear for a couple weeks. Make people talk about you, make people wonder, why is she not posting as much? Why are we not seeing what she's wearing in the morning and having for breakfast and all these other things. I said Beyonce did that. She disappeared for like a couple of years and then she comes out with like a country western album that nobody expected. Michael Jackson did that. He would disappear between albums for three or four years and it just made people go crazy and talk about him and wonder who he was. That was before the era of social media, I grant, but you have to disappear sometimes so people don't take you for granted if they know everything about you. It's human nature that you become too familiar and they're not interested in you anymore. It's a certain point. So you have to create mystery, man.

Do you think you have to do that in interpersonal relationships too? How does one create Mystery, let's say.

In a relationship, well, it's that you think of doing something that's going to surprise the other person. Now, nobody knows you completely. Your husband doesn't know every single thing about you, Cody. He didn't know. He didn't know you before you got married. He didn't know all your previous boyfriends and. And everything and some of the naughty things that you've done in your life.

Robert. No, no. Former boyfriends. Perfect saint.

Oh, right, right. Like I believe that. So he. He doesn't know these things. He doesn't know you completely. So if you give him a sense of. I'm sorry, what's his name?

Chris.

Chris. I meant. I mean, I forgot. Chris. You show him something that he didn't know about before because, wow, I didn't know Cody. I was taking her for granted. I wasn't, you know, I think I knew everything about her. She showed me something that surprised me. Maybe the surprise isn't something good, but at least it, like, keeps him on his heels. It makes him think about you. Because in a relationship, people will take you for granted after a couple of months. Right? They were so interested you in the beginning, and now it's kind of dwindling. They take you for granted because they think they know everything about you. If you surprise them, if you say something different, if you take them to a place where they never thought that you would take them to, if you dress a certain way, that seems a little bit out of character, not completely out of character. They go, wow, that you need to do that in a relationship constantly. Otherwise it's just going to fizzle. All the energy is going to go out of it.

That's so beautiful. It really feels to me what I'm reminded speaking to you and every time I read your books, is it. Is this like. It's this beautiful game, you know, Whether it's a play that we all are playing, and if you do it in the right way, that is somehow how you want to play the game too. You can have outsized outcomes without that much additional effort.

That's right.

Which is a beautiful thing. I cannot wait to read your next book. When is it out?

Yet to have you read. Because that means it'll be finished, I bet. Just careful on your bike rides. Huh?

Said careful on your bike rides. We need you to stick around. Check in in nine months.

Make sure you still go on one tomorrow. But I will be careful.

Okay?

It will be out. Lord Blessing me will be out in fall of 2026. So next year Fall.

Wow. Okay. Well, we don't know the name or anything yet. That'll come out next year.

It's called right now the Law of the Sublime.

I like it. Robert Green, this was so amazing. I love learning from you. I'm actually going to go back and reread a couple of your books because I've realized how much I've forgotten in them. But thank you for bringing these ideas.

I really enjoyed it. It's a great conversation.

Me too. Minus the drilling. We have to go murder somebody back.

I don't think that was.

I know. I just. I was pretending I couldn't hear it. Yeah, exactly. Small screams. Robert Green, where do you like to point people these days? Obviously I'll do your intro and everything and get it right in that.

Well, I have, I have a website that goes back hundreds of years. I believe it's the same.

You have a great Instagram and Twitter too.

Do you prefer people go to the place where you know everything? Yeah, it's Power seduction and. And war.com, my first three books. And there you'll find my Instagram, my ex, Twitter, whatever you call it. YouTube, tick tock, the whole shebang, huh?

Are you doing tick tock dances?

No, but I have like close to 2 million followers on TikTok. Just doing videos of, you know, just like our conversation.

They're really good, by the way. Do you know that you. You probably already know this, but you are one of the highest ranking guests for YouTube podcasts of anyone. Do you know that? Across almost all channels. Like Stephen Bartlett, Chris Williamson.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know Stephen Bartlett. Yeah. I don't know why.

It's good information.

Yeah, very grateful for it. Because it's helpful. I love the world, world of podcasting. I can tell you. I know we're finished here, but before, before podcasting, a writer had to go on mainstream media. Man, that sucks so much. I hated that.

Three minutes and you don't get to say anything interesting.

That's speaking of inauthentic. It's like.

Yeah, I agree.

I love podcasting. I love podcasters. I love that world. You just get to be yourself. There are people who actually read your books.

Yeah.

You know, and it's like a real interaction. So, yeah, I'm very grateful for all that.

So the last part, this podcast, the idea is what would you say to the young Robert listening out there? But you, you, if you could go back, what would be your words of wisdom and then whatever you feel comfortable writing and then we have you just read a message to young Robert. And it's sort of a reminder that even those on high, you know, at some point, they were young and lost and all the things we all were.

Okay, So what I wrote was, listen, young Robert, everything was going to turn out fine for you. So stop worrying and feeling so depressed and enjoy your youth more because it goes by way too quickly. You'll have plenty more to worry about when you're older and things start falling apart. So try to enjoy yourself much more right now.

It's beautiful. Thank you for sharing, Robert.

That makes sense.

Yes, it did. And I think that's true. Even on your worst day when you're young, it's kind of your best day, isn't it?

Yeah.

I wish we.

I mean, it's. It's good being older. I don't. I don't regret that. It has its own advantages. I don't take things so seriously, but, man, I had so much more fun when I was younger, you know?

Yeah. Yeah, I think you did say, too. God, what a bummer that would be. You said it more eloquently, but what a bummer that would be if everything worked out right on the first attempt. Yeah, I think that's true.

To learn. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, Robert, this is amazing. Thank you.

Thank you so much for having me, Cody. Sam.