Non-Verbal Expert: Master the Secret Art of Charisma & Influence

Sometimes a mistake I see entrepreneurs make is you say, so what's your business? What do you do? And they give you the most complicated answer I've ever heard in a million years. And you see people like, okay, cool. They're not contemptuous of you. They don't understand. And they are contemptuous of that.

Right?

So if you're introducing yourself, you're explaining something, you're like, gosh, Vanessa, I'm seeing this contempt everywhere you are over complicating it. You need to go for clarity over confusion. People should be able to very quickly understand what you do and who you are and what you want from them.

So, obviously, I love creating content. We post like 50 pieces of it across all my platforms. And if you've ever created content, you know the uphill battle it can be to ideate, write, produce film, video, and then you have to edit it all. So one of my favorite tools to use for this is Riverside. You've probably heard about it before, but I don't think people realize that it's revolutionized the podcast space by allowing creators all over the world to do the recording in 4K, regardless of Internet speed. But they've just released an update that I think any creator is going to love. So along with the high quality video and audio that they've kind of become known for, you can have editing software so you can edit any video content directly in Riverside if your team's a little bit more bougie like mine and wants to record the video themselves. And then you can upload it to Riverside so you can use their amazing AI tools afterwards. It can transform, transcribe your video, add customizable caption, analyze that transcript to cut out any dead space in the video. And my favorite part, they have this AI editor feature that will pull short form from clips from my content so we can squeeze all the juice of it out from the many hours it takes to create it. If you think time is money like I do, then Riverside has given me and my team back lots of time, AKA money. So I love these guys. And because I love you, I got you guys a deal. So try Riverside for yourself with the link in this episode's description. You can sign up for free using the link and discount code Cody at checkout for a discount on any paid plan. Welcome back to the Big Deal podcast. I'm Cody Sanchez and this podcast is for those of you who don't just want to be rich, but free and are willing to do what it takes to get there. Okay, this week we have on Somebody that I go to every time I am struggling with. How do I communicate with somebody with? Why isn't my team doing what I want it to do with? Why can't I get my husband to do what I want him to do? And her name is Vanessa Van Edwards. You guys might know her because she has one of the most popular TED talks of all time on communication and the cues we give with our body that tell people things without us even moving our mouth. She runs something called Science of People, which is a large psychology based business on how can we use behavioral cues in order for us to get what we want out of life, to live better lives, to be more successful. She also is a best selling author, times two, frequently on Good Morning America, cnbc, msnbc. You guys are kind of in for a treat because she has only done two podcasts this year, Mel Robbins and now mine. What I love about Vanessa is she talks about things that are applicable to our everyday lives that we can take away and take real action on, but all backed by science. And so she is like a walking encyclopedia of studies and experiments that you can then take and apply to your business. So in this episode today we go over how do you pitch somebody something so that they will buy it. We talk about how in your business do you communicate in meetings that is probably making people not like you and you to be less successful. We talk about how to communicate with members of the opposite sex to actually figure out if they're into you or going to be into you and vice versa. We also talk about how do you run a business or be successful in business if you're an introvert or if you don't really like people? And one of my favorite ones, how do you tell people no, but get them to thank you. So I think you guys are really gonna like this episode. Let's dive right in to a story that kind of blew my mind when Vanessa started. We gotta start with one of my favorite stories. Shark Tank. Ring. I'll say no more.

Okay. Ring. Billion dollar company now was a great idea. Video doorbell. Okay. Jamie Siminoff has this idea. He has lots of growth, lots of traction. He goes on Shark Tank, you think no brainer. He enters the tank, he does a pitch, not a good one, but does a pitch, shows revenue numbers, has really promising numbers and he doesn't get a deal. Months later, he gets an investment from Shaq Richard Branson. But he failed in Shark Tank. And it is the perfect example. And it was sobering for me. This was back in 2012, 2013 where he had a great idea, literally a million dollar idea, but he didn't know how to pitch it and it failed. And that is the problem. I think a lot of business owners have amazing ideas. It doesn't matter how good your idea is, if you don't know how to pitch it, it will not sell.

Let's watch a second of this clip.

Who's there? It's jamie here to pitch.

Who?

It's jamie.

Come in.

Sharks. Wouldn't it be nice to know who was behind the door before you let me in with my product?

You can. What do you take away from this? What are the learning lessons so that we can only be the ring founder after he became a billionaire during Sharkcake.

Okay, so here's a big mistake that people make when they're pitching, pitching on stage, pitching on a video call, pitching to an investor, is they prep their pitch and not their first impression. But people decide how smart you are, how trustworthy you are, and if they're gonna like your idea when they first see you, that is even before your opening line. And so what I learned in that was that his first impression was one of the worst first impressions I've ever seen. So what he did is he was trying to be clever, is he came in and he knocked on the door of the shark tank. And they said, who's there? And he said, it's Jamie here to pitch an idea. And he asked his own name. In that moment, I think he lost the deal. The reason for this is because an accidental question, inflection, when you accidentally ask your name or your number or your statement, people question you. And so I think in his opening line, and this is a mistake people make all the time, is they ask their name or they ask their number, and you're begging people to negotiate with you. I do tons of sales trainings, right? And here's what I hear all the time. We'd love to have your business. We'd love to work with you. And the price of that will be $5,000. You ask your number, you're telling people, I don't really believe this number, and neither should you. Those people have the lowest close rates, the biggest pushback. And also people lack confidence in you. So I think that the first impressions was the really big one. There is. It's before you even open your mouth or your very first line is actually going to set you up for an entire pitch.

Fascinating. So what should it sound like?

Okay, so instead you want to use what's called the downward inflection, and you Want to do this? It's much more authoritative. Is when we're speaking as humans. Well, can I share a really good study? Just a juicy study? Okay.

So.

So most people, when they think about how to pitch, they think about the words they use, maybe what they're wearing or their body language. But actually, our vocal power is a secret way that we can show confidence. And here's a study. They brought doctors into their recording studio and they had them record 10 second voice tone clips like this. Hi, my name is Dr. Edwards. I specialize in oncology, and I work at Children's Presbyterian Hospital. They took these clips and they warbled the words so you could hear the pitch, the volume, the pace, the cadence, but not the actual words being said. Then they asked participants to listen to these clips. And the gobbledygook sounded like, I worked really hard on practicing.

Nailed it. Yeah.

Yes. Thank you. So they listened to this, and they said, how smart is this person? Do you like this person? The doctors who had the lowest ratings in warmth and competence had the highest rate of malpractice lawsuits.

Whoa.

Which means that when you first say, hey, my name is Vanessa, how you say that is right. Then people are deciding how smart and how trustworthy you are. And so when we're talking about vocal power, the biggest mistake that doctors made is they ask their names. They said, hi, My name is Dr. Edwards. I specialize in oncology. I work at Children's Presbyterian Hospital. What would have been better is going on the downward inflection. So that sounds like this. Hi, My name is Dr. Edwards. I specialize in oncology. I work at Children's Presbyterian Hospital.

Oh, yeah, I believe.

Oh, my gosh. Right. Even I would hire me, and I'm not a doctor. You know, someone who was really good at this. Barack Obama. Barack Obama. There is a cadence he has to his voice, and I do terrible impressions. I will try it for you, but I do terrible impressions. He used to go down, or he still goes down at the end of his sentences, which makes you sit up and listen. So he. This is my really bad Barack Obama impression. Okay, ready? Here it goes. I'm going to talk about nothing. In our country today, we really have to work on something serious. If we don't work on this problem, we are going to have a major challenge. Right. Like, he is slinging his words down at you. And as humans, we think, whoa, if he's going that low and he's telling us what to do, it might better be real interesting. It almost doesn't even matter what the content is, but we hear that vocal tone. So when you're practicing your pitches, practice stating your name, practice stating your numbers. And whatever question makes you nervous. Like when an investor is like, so what's the competition in the market? Do not ask, tell.

Fascinating. Do you use this also in interpersonal relations? Not just pitches. Like what is constantly. What other scenarios would you use this in? Is this how you communicate with your team and also how you communicate with your husband?

Yeah. So luckily I have think about all these cues as a science, and they are happening all the time. I think there are about 96 cues that people choose from. Like they actually can pick these out and use them in interpersonal relationships. And it happens down to asking your husband where he wants to go to dinner. It comes down to telling your kids what you want them to do. I notice that parents who have kids who don't listen as much are asking what they want them to do instead of saying saying what they want them to do.

Gosh, you're right.

So this is an assertiveness issue. Right. When we talk about assertiveness in the workplace, at home, and interpersonal relationships, if you state your needs, people are much more likely to listen to them. And so it is happening all the time. But it's not just vocal power. Right. It's also how we carry ourselves. The kinds of words we use. In fact, the kinds of words we use change how people treat us. For example, there was a study, I love this study. They wanted to know if a single word could change the way people acted. They brought them into the lab, sold them into two groups. One group was told, today you're going to play the Wall street game. The second group was told, today you're going to play the community game. The trick was, the games were the same. They wanted to know if that one single word switch would change how they interacted. Everyone who was told they were playing the Wall street game shared an average of a third of their profits. People who were told they were playing the community game shared two thirds of their profits. That means that when we hear words like community, we are primed to actually act more collaboratively, to actually act more communally. When we are primed to act in a competitive way, like Wall street, we actually are less generous, but more competitive. So the words you're using with your kids, with your spouses, with your friends on your team, they are changing things. The biggest mistake I see is bosses send out meeting, video call, one on one. What a missed opportunity. If you are doing that, you are blending in I open my calendar multiple times a day. Call it what you want them to do in that meeting. You want a strategic meeting, call it strategic goal setting meeting, collaboration, team session, accountability call. That way, every single time someone opens their calendar, they're literally being primed on how they should act and behave in that moment.

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That's such good advice. I'm totally gonna steal that.

Yes.

You know, it's interesting because I was at an event the other day. Well, I was actually at church. And what I thought was fascinating is I went to two different churches over the course of two weeks because we're looking for a church here in Austin that I want to be a part of. You saw in the group text, and one of the ones I went to blew me away because of their priming. So they opened it up and they talked about how at this church, they were a community. So they used that word, one. Then they said, and at this community, the job is not for the church and the book to serve you. It is for you to serve the book and the church then. In fact, if you want to become a better person and if you want to achieve more of your goals and what you want out of life, that means you have to give first. And so it was funny because as I was listening to it, I was like, God, these chairs are sort of uncomfortable. You know, I was like. I was like, tash, the lighting. This could be like a better setup. I'm critiquing what's happening in church, which is totally not normal. But as I'm doing that. And he says, if there is something that you want differently, if there is something that you think should change, who should be the person to change it? If not you, then who. Who should be the person to change it? And everyone is like, me. And I was like, oh, that's so good. Because what does that do? The second you and your event in your company then feel like there's something that needs to change, your employees will feel like they're the ones that can actually help you make the change.

And that was a purposeful introduction. They thought and they said, what purpose are we going to give everyone? Because we are infectious, right? We are emotionally contagious as humans. And so you have to think, if I'm emotionally contagious, what contagion do I want to spread? Do I want to spread influence, power, persuasion, kindness, wealth, happiness? What are those things? You have to be purposeful? They were planning on what those words were going to be when they first got there. Same thing as your team meetings. What is the one word goal? Is it collaboration or is it get it done right? When you are starting a team call, here's my least favorite thing. People get on a team call, and they go, well, we'll get started in a few. We'll let everyone log in. No, that is a wasted opportunity, and it means you're not being purposeful. No. Your meetings start the moment you come on. If you're a boss and they start with your intention for the meeting. All right, everyone, today we're going to do a big review, and I want to get really clear on some goals. But first, I want to start with, tell me something good. Every team call, I do everyone on the team, because we're all remote. Two of us are in Austin. We say share something good because I noticed that we were starting accidentally on the negative. I think this is also if you're a leader, we can do good by being good communicators. And so if you are starting your team calls with traffic, the numbers, the problems, so stressed, so busy, so hectic. What a scarcity mindset that is. And you are contagious. You say you're stressed. You just infected your whole team with stress. Because moods usually go from the top down. So I would rather you be positively contagious. That sets up such a good culture. It sets up such good loyalty. So I noticed my team calls were, like, negative, like, accidentally so. So I was like, no, no, we are changing this so everyone share something good. You know what my team member told me? She said, every Tuesday, we have our team call, and on Monday, I do more good things so that you have so she has something to share on Tuesdays. And so I think that part of this is about being more charismatic and having more influence and pitching your ideas. Part of it is also let's spread more good. Like, let's be positively contagious. And that means being purposeful. That means no more accidental openers. Sorry I'm late. It's been so busy. Never ask someone explain what an accidental.

Opener is, because that is a beautiful line. I think doing an accidental opener is the worst way for a leader to lead.

Yes. Okay. Accidental openers happen when you have whatever is the top of your mind and it comes out of your mouth and you've just changed the nature of the entire communication or interaction. Right. So it's. This is the question that, can we please go on a diet no more been busy. Is it your busy season? Oh, man, was that bad thing that happened last month still happening?

Right.

You are literally juicing bad. Right. So I like purposeful openers. Right. So that's create a norm in your team where you're adding a purple open that people can prepare for that also respects your introverts. So I love my extroverted leaders, but extroverted leaders sometimes can actually turn off employees and lose them if they push them out of their introvert boundaries. So if you're like, we're gonna do a new icebreaker every single week for an introvert, they're like, please not.

Right.

So you have a norm on the team that we talk about something good or we share something we've learned or we do a goal review. Okay, next is in your interpersonal relationships is level up by asking better questions. You want to literally juice dopamine. Look, dopamine does a lot of things in our body. I will not over complicate it. But it is the chemical of motivation. When someone has dopamine coursing through their bodies, they are motivated to talk, open up, say yes, invest, do new things, say new things. It's the chemical of excitement. We can juice it with our questions. And an accidental opener. Mrs. Dopamine opportunities. So here's my favorite dopamine opener. Working on anything exciting these days. Yeah, Please stop asking what they do. I think when you ask someone, what do you do? First of all, it's a social script. You just told their brain, go on autopilot, I'm going to ask the same boring questions as I always ask. And second, if someone is not defined by what they do, they are answering on autopilot. And then they are. They have no dopamine at all. Right. Their brain is off. They're thinking about their to do list. If you ask someone working on anything exciting these days, you are giving them such a beautiful contagion, which is they get to think through their head, exciting, exciting, exciting, exciting. That is literally juicing dopamine from excitement in their own life. And it gives them permission to tell you what they want to tell you.

That's really good. Yeah. In a perfect world, too, then you never have somebody say, oh, I'm just a mom right now, which is also one of my pet peeves. Oh, my gosh. But that is my fault that I opened up the question in a way that made them go automatically to a just answer.

I think it's our fault. I think we're in charge of how people treat us. You cue people to how you want to be treated, and that's with the kinds of questions you ask, the kinds of words you use, how you're holding your body language, and how you're using your voice. So if you want to be treated with more respect, more likability, you got to spread it.

Let's talk about that. If you want to be treated with more respect, what do you do from a body language perspective?

Okay, so respect is a good one. So research has shown that 82% of our impressions of people are based on two traits, warmth and competence. It's not how attractive you are, it's not how tall you are, it's not how rich you are, it's not how successful you are you. It's literally how fast can you signal, I'm a friend, trust and you can rely on me. Competence. And so from a body language perspective, the faster you can signal those two things. The moment you hop on screen, the moment you get on a video, the moment you enter a room, the more people like you and respect you.

Interesting.

So it is a balance. So what I like to think about is like a recipe, is there are warmth non verbal cues, and there are competent nonverbal cues. So warm cues, these make sense, right? Smiling, authentic smiling. A warm cue, you're nodding. Nodding is a warmth cue. Right. When you do a triple nod, research shows that I will speak 67% longer. So when you're just going, oh, I gotta start adding, but not bobbleheading, which is this. No.

Oh, right. Too much.

Well, so that. That's also not good.

Right?

Too much. So if you do a slow triple knot here, I'll demo it for You. The other person speaks 67% longer. So this is a. Mm, mm, mm.

Stop. Okay.

Right. That is a non verbal dot, dot, dot. You're telling the other person, I hear you, I see you. Tell me more. Now the pace of this is also important. So you only want to do three and pause and you want to do them slowly. So slow is engaged and curious. Tell me more, tell me more, tell me more. Fast is impatience. Oh yeah. So a little secret here is if you want someone to like wrap it up or speed it up, not that you ever would, you can go, uh huh. It's literally a signal for them to stop talking. So warmth cues, Smiling, nodding, a head tilt. So watch the difference between a still face and a head tilt. So if I were to say, I have some news, I have some news. A head tilt immediately softens you. It immediately adds more warmth. That's a small warmth cue. Competence cues, there's like 15 of them, but those are the easy ones, the competence cues. Some of my favorites are like a steeple. So even this is just more wise and competent. If it feels natural to you, like some people look like, don't be Mr. Burns. So you gotta kinda be careful. This is on my book cover. And you love it. I know, I do love your book cover. Right. But I'm not. So you have to be careful with this one. But that's a high competency because your.

Book cover, you've got the cross legs. So it's like your dainty, but you're also smart. Dainty. Yeah. Cross your ankles.

Warm.

I feel like I always think dainty, warm, dainty.

I'll take it.

Yeah, it's a great book. By the way. The book's name is Q's give you a plug. But all of this is in there.

So the COVID is literally a perfect balance of warmth and competence, as are most of my social media posts. So if you look at my Instagram grid, it's warm, competent, warm, competent. Maybe it'll be warm, warm, competent, competent. We'll have a study post and then a post of me being silly and then a funny meme and then a really hard hitting study. So even in your business, like, can I give a business example, please? Okay, so Casper Mattresses is an interesting one. Like they kind of took the mattress market by storm and they could have had better mattresses. Sure. But their marketing was a perfect blend of warmth and competence. On their webpage, they would have like kids bouncing on clouds and they would have our research scientists in the Casper lab. And it was a Whole science section. And they would have like a quote from Vogue about like the best night's sleep ever. And then they would have someone in a lab coat testing a mattress. Literally you could count the warmth and competence and that for a human when they are looking for trust, reliability. Trust reliability is immediately helpful. We can do the same thing with our words. So for example, I love to guess someone's warmth and competence based on their email sent folder. So a challenge for you is.

Oh, no. Oh no.

All right, we're going to look at.

Cody's email sent folder.

So you can go into their email sent folder and I count up the warm words and the competent words. Warm words are words that trigger oxytocin. It makes us feel collaborative. So they're words like best. Both happy together. Cheers. Collaborate, team words that are competent make us want to get it done. They're words like motivation, efficient. Power through goal, mastery, achieve. So I can tell you how your team rates you on warmth and competence based on your email sent folder. Emojis are warm. Exclamation points are warm. Data charts, graphs, numbers are competent. And so when you're writing important emails, not all the emails, there should be a blend of both warmth and competence. Your LinkedIn profile should be a blend of warmth and confidence. Your landing pages should be a blend of warmth and competence.

I think I over index on the competence.

Yeah, yeah.

Although I think it's really interesting because you talked from a social perspective. We've noticed that lately too, that I am so high on the indexing for competence or what Chris Voss would call assertive too, that when people meet me to interview me, I had two. Well, actually, I think Chloe said it to me. She met me and she was like, gosh, you're actually, you're really nice and warm and kind. And I was like, yes, thank you. Yeah, it's a common thing. Because my content is very serious.

Yes, the same thing I was told you're so much nicer than you look.

Yeah, I get that too.

Why do you think I wear pink?

It's actually very smart.

You have to balance. And so this is what's really important is Oprah Winfrey is a good example of this. So Oprah Winfrey has a very, very high balance of warmth and competence. And we like people who have both. Right, but she has a dial. Right. It's like a thermostat. Right. Like we like it between 68 and 72. I don't want you to dial all the way. But like when Oprah Winfrey is with like A victim. She is crying with them, she is touching them, she's leaning in. Those are all warmth cues. When she's with, like a political commenter commentator, she changes. Her cues are much more competent. She's quieter. She's less facially expressive. She makes more eye contact. She's still with her body. She has less gestures. Those are all competent gestures. So you can also dial. And this is what I think the most advanced leaders do. And Jamie Simonoff learned to do this. Going back to Ring, he learned to do this. I think that was a bad pitch in Shark Tank, which, by the way, it's not obviously bad. Like, if you were to go watch the pitch, you would be like, I don't know what happened, but something happened. I think he learned how to pitch with both warmth and competence. As anyone can look at your slide deck, right in your slide deck, it should not be all numbers and competence. In fact, the research says, and this is a quote, competence without warmth leaves people feeling suspicious. People will be suspicious of your ideas and your numbers if you do not know how to add warmth cues. And that is what you are struggling with, is you know instinctively, if I come across as too hard or too competent, people are suspicious of me. And they are. And that is because we have to have a balance of both.

Yeah. It goes to trustworthiness. Yeah. A lot of our presentations, we use memes because memes are an easy way to transfer somebody else's warmth to you.

Exactly.

I'm not the greatest joke teller of all time.

You're good, you're funny.

No, thanks. But then when I can add somebody else's meme in there, then it softens up sort of the hard blows of business that are reality.

Okay, let's get practical. Right. So like in your presentation, I like to switch a warmth something into your presentation like every two minutes. So this is very practical. So competence in a presentation, data charts, graphs, research, science, study, warmth, memes, gifs, demos, fuzzy wuzzy, social proof, personal stories.

Quotes, quotes, good quotes.

I love quotes because they make you.

Feel something immediately and you don't have to come up with it.

And it's warm. Right. So if you can take that list and you can just make it so that they're even, your presentations will be so much stronger. Same thing on your social media. Same thing in your promos. Same thing in your ads.

Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah. I always wondered. One of the fun things I like to do is go into Facebook ad library and you can watch in my spare time so you can Go into Facebook library and you can see all the ads that somebody's running of any business.

Okay, what?

Okay, so if you want to try to understand the psychology of selling of any business, it's really easy to see in Facebook. And if the ads have been running for a long period of time, you know that the ad has been working. So if you look at the brand new ads, I don't know, maybe they work, maybe they don't. But if they've been running for a few months, okay, this ad is working. And then I like to go into the ad and see, well, why is it working? And oftentimes it's not what you expect. It's like, oh, this had something catchy in it and it was some sort of warmth and entertainment. And then finally it got to the content. It finally, it got to the close.

So this is the curse of smart people. This is why we have so many failed entrepreneurs and failed businesses, is because they're super smart. And that is actually a problem in communication. Super smart people have great ideas. They have data to back it up. They have the whole plan. But if you do not know how to pitch your idea or package your idea with warmth, people will not believe it. And so smart people rely very heavily on, I'm gonna put an ad and say, you know, 50% returns or 20% cheaper than the competitor. But people don't buy from just competence alone. They have to trust you first.

Yeah, that's such a good point. You know, speaking of trust, it also reminds me that as the bigger you get, the bigger the target that you have. And you know, we love David until he becomes Goliath. And one thing that we've talked about before that I thought was genius is thinking about how somebody like Taylor Swift stays so high on the warmth scale when she is a billionaire. She is highly competent, gorgeous, and she gets, you know, her tickets are 5x more expensive than anybody else, and yet people love her. Can you talk a little bit about what you see in T. Swift?

So you're so generous because actually I was totally making fun of T. Swift. Okay, I love her, but I was making fun of her because she does a specific nonverbal cue that just kills me because it is, here's what it is. Whenever she walks into a room, you watch her documentary. Half of the documentary is her doing what I call the humble cue, which is this.

It's true.

And so she's in a stadium, a sold out stadium with like whatever, 50,000 people, and she's like, how did you all get Here. Oh, my gosh. For me, that. We love it.

We love it.

We love it. Because she's. We're like, she's so successful. She so knows her stuff. But look at how humble she is.

Right?

This is why these documentaries are working. This is why so people are doing them, is because what do you see? You said, oh, he's so successful. He's on stage. But then you see him, like, making his own coffee.

Yeah.

Oh, he spills a little. Oh. Like, there are studies on this where Dr. Richard Wiseman had a model try to sell a blender in a mall. Okay. A blender. And he did two trials of this experiment. One where she did a demo of the blender. Hi, good morning, folks. We're going to demo this blender for you. Strawberry banana. Here's the blender. Smoothies for all. Okay. A perfect presentation. Then she had the second version of this. Same words, same smoothies and everything. But she spills the smoothie. Hi, everyone. So happy to sell you this blender, Strawberry man. Oh, no. Here's that smoothie for you. So sorry. The blender when she made the mistake. She sold so many more of that blender when she made the mistake. Because I think people were, like, real vulnerable. It's okay. And so when I talk about warmth, it's also vulnerability. It's also admitting the problem or the mistake or making a mistake or not having a perfect pitch, which for smart people, they are allergic to.

Yeah, it's true.

Allergic to it.

I have so much respect for Mel Robbins because she's so good at showing her vulnerabilities and being honest about some of the stuff that's going on in the world. And I think that people see that and go, okay, if she's willing to.

Share that, she must be real. Can I tell you how she does it also? So she does it verbally, but here's a nonverbal cue that Mel uses, and I should make fun of Mel for this. She's the only other interview I did this year other than you. So this is her nonverbal cue. Ready, guys? Guys, can I just tell you this one tip? She self touches her face.

Yeah.

Probably just like, totally messed up everything.

No, you look great.

Why does that matter? Okay, so self touching your face is a cue of anxiety or nervousness. It is also a vulnerability. So you will notice that I think Mel Robbins touches her face far more than any other influencer. And you know what? We love it. We love it because we know instinctively. I think Cornell found that four behaviors, non verbal behaviors. That trigger untrustworthiness. Like make you not want to trust a person. Touching the face or the hair is one of them touching the stomach, Rubbing your arms and I believe lack of eye contact, they just signal distrust. So when Mel gets on video and she self touches it immediately makes you think, oh, is she nervous? Oh, me too.

Ah, wait, but how does that work? So this usually makes you not like somebody or not says somebody.

I said signals untrustworthiness because we think of make they're nervous. But if she's giving us really competent advice, we're like, oh, she's nervous but she's giving us good advice.

Interesting.

I want to be very clear. All these cues do not have to do with your actual trust.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

Like we're talking about perceptions of trust and competence which are just as important as your actual trust and competence. And that's what I think a lot of smart people get wrong is they think I have the best system at the best business and I'm trustworthy. Of course people will buy. And then they're shocked why no one buys or they don't understand why their sales teams cannot close. It is because I listen in on these sales calls and I can tell you down to the queue why they are not closing. And it is because they can have the best pitch in the world, the best script. But if they are giving away their competence, people will not believe them.

Interesting. Yeah. And I think often when people try to sell in business, they try to maybe promise what they actually can deliver, which is like a good night's sleep casts for a mattress. And people go, that's too hard. There's no way you could possibly deliver that to me. And so they almost oversell the thing that they actually do. But they'd be better off saying a.

Pretty good night's sleep.

Yeah, a little bit better than your last night's sleep masks. And people go, okay, that's probably doable. And I think that's a great, that's a great point in marketing and sales too.

I think that their tagline was something like reliable prices with science backed engineering. Like even their tagline was the perfect blends of warmth and competence. Words. And they were very honest with like, here are how our engineers have tested this mattress. And so you could kind of see the process. So another way you can add warmth is you can show behind the scenes. Like I think that like when you're showing behind the scenes, people are like, oh, she's real.

Totally.

And so like that's the other way the other element you can add there is like real behind the scenes as well.

Yeah, I don't think enough people, we talk about this a lot here too, which is document, don't create. And it's really hard to do actually, because you're in it, you're working. But if you can actually document, okay, we're going to save a business today. Okay. We just closed on a deal right here. Then people actually can see you doing it. In a world with the lowest trust levels since before the age of the Internet, it's necessary, so it's smart. Now I want to talk a little bit about.

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Like I think a lot of times in first interactions, we're seeing scared. We're scared to pitch, we're scared for an interview, we're scared to sell. Can you hide fear? Does it matter? Can other people feel that?

You're not going to like this answer very much, but our emotions are contagious. And so if you're afraid, people will pick up on it. So there's a study that changed the way that I think about this, which is they brought people into their lab and they sold them up to two different groups. One group, they wore sweat suits and ran on a treadmill. So they got sweat into the suit and they collected the sweat. Second group, they said, you're going to skydive for the first time, put them in sweatsuits and push them out of a plane. They took the two samples of sweat. This is where it gets kind of gross. They asked unsuspecting participants to smell both of the sweat. They had no idea what they were smelling in an FMRI machine. Everyone who smelled the fear, sweat, the Skydiving sweat caught the fear. They had no idea what they were smelling, but their amygdala lit up where they were afraid. What this shows us is that when you are afraid, you are sending off all kinds of signals. You don't even realize not only your face, not only your voice, but also even your chemical physiology. And so this is why I think it's really critically important for my introverted entrepreneurs, my introverted business owners, is you gotta get yourself right before you walk into a room. You gotta know your stuff, right? Like, no one can fake warmth and competence. I can give you the cues to help. But if you are truly afraid that you don't know your numbers or you don't know your stuff, people are going to pick up on it. That, I think is the definition of inauthenticity, Right? It's like you're faking a number or you're faking warmth with someone. Now, I will say that I think that we can convert our fear into different kinds of social energy. So it's very important for people to understand, are you an introvert, ambivert, or extrovert? Most people think of just introvert and extrovert. There's actually a third category, and most people are ambiverts. And you have to be very precise about what causes you fear or drains your battery and what gives you energy. For example, I am an ambivert. I can kind of switch between the two. I know who gives me energy. Like, I leave being like, yes. Like, when we hang out with our group of girlfriends, I feel energized after. I don't feel drained. Whereas I have certain people where I'm like in a coma afterwards. Right.

We've all felt that.

Right? So you gotta know, who are the people, what are the places, who are the teammates or the tasks that drain you the fastest? And then you should divide your energy like a social battery that helps conquer the fear. Because being a little bit afraid because you're nervous is not a bad thing. But being drained and afraid, that's a deal breaker.

That's a great point. So basically, you could, even if you're scared, you could at least be prepared to be scared.

Exactly. And you can know, okay, I'm bringing my favorite team member, bringing my favorite wing woman. I love my deck. I just redesigned my slides. It's gorgeous. I have warmth and competence. That's gonna make me feel good. So even though you're a little bit afraid pitching out there, you know your stuff, you know your deck, you have your wing woman. And you're doing it at an ideal time for you, right? Like, you can begin to. We can game our energy in that way. And that's really important on teams as well. Like, you should know your team members. Who's introverted and who's extroverted on your team. Who's ambivered on your team. Your introverts never put them on the spot for collaboration. That's an insult to them. Right? If you want them to collaborate or share their idea, send them an email ahead of time and say, hey, tomorrow we're doing a strategy session. I'm gonna be talking about some big ideas for X in the fall. I would love your ideas on how we can do things differently.

Interesting.

That gives them 24 hours to prepare for that. Prepare for it. As opposed to bump, you know, in the room. They're gonna trigger fear, right? You're gonna say, what are your ideas on X for the fall? They'll be like, huh? Not because they're not smart, but because they're in a situation that makes them feel uncomfortable.

What personality tests do you use for your team in order to tell who is what?

Okay, so I highly recommend, if you're going to hire, do behavioral interviewing. So that's less like skill and strength based and that's more behavior based. And my favorite practice for hiring is doing Alphabet work. So this is basically figuring out what is your ABCD work and what is their ABCD work. Very simply, this is your A work is work that you are better at than most people. Like, what are you better at than most people? Where do you hit flow? What are you most productive in? A work, tasks and communication. B work. B work is the trick. B work is what trips up my smart people. B work you're pretty good at, but you're not great at it. You're not better than everyone at it, and you can get away with it, but you kind of dread it. C work, you're average. You do it just like everyone else. It kind of clunky. It kind of takes you a while, and you can get by. D work is work you are terrible at. You're worse than most people, and it's going to look terrible. The mistake that people make when they hire is they hire people who have their A work and then they hire the person. Then you both want the A work. You are better off hiring someone who is opposite to you. Their D work is your A work. Your A work is their D work. Or if you really, really want to be efficient, hire someone who you can give away your B work to B work, I think slows most people down. We were talking about this earlier is if you can give away your B work to give. Give more time for a work, you're so much more efficient. And so you want to think very strategically about what's the behavior of how people are thinking.

Yeah, that's really good. You know, in that vein, I think a lot of times in our businesses, it's not just, are they competent and can this person come in and do the task?

It's not skill based. That's skill based.

But it's also, who are they as a human? And I think about this in a way, like, what is better to have in your business as a coworker? Is it better to have a toxic co worker, or is it better to have sort of a fake co worker that you're a little ambivalent with? What's the difference between the two?

Okay, I have a very strong opinion on this, which is I prefer a toxic co worker to a frenemy. I prefer a toxic worker to a fake friend. Here's why. When we know someone is toxic or difficult, we are very clear in our head. We don't go to lunch with them. We don't need to catch up on the weekend. We know their strength and their skills, and that's what we go to them for. And then we create parameters around their difficulty. When you're fake with someone or you're ambivalent, and I call this like a fake friend. When you're like, do I like them? Are they doing a good job? Do they like me? This is people also with friends who. Who you're like, was that a neg? Like, was that passive aggressive? Or are they actually supporting me? That actually drains you far faster than a toxic person. There's a study about this. So they did it with police officers, and they categorized everyone's relationships in this precinct, and they found that the officers who had more ambivalent relationships, like relationships with the co workers, where they were like, do I want to go to lunch with them or would I rather eat a sandwich alone? Ambivalent. The more ambivalent relationships they had, the worse their happiness was. The more sick days they took, the lower their workplace satisfaction. Actually, police officers who had more toxic co workers were totally okay because they knew that's not my person.

Yeah.

So I think that a lot of this, especially as adults, is like, who are my people? Great. That's my person. And that's my person. And that's not my person. That's not my person. When you are very clear on that, that actually helps you streamline your social energy. If you are not sure if someone likes you, if you are not sure that someone's not doing a good job, Time to make a change.

That's so interesting. Have you ever thought that it wasn't working with somebody or that they weren't the right person, made a decision, made a change, let them go, moved on and regretted it?

No.

I know. Me neither. Isn't that crazy? It's actually fascinating because I've asked every leader, every time that question. No, never have I had a leader go, dang it. I wish I hadn't let that person go. Never. Dang it. I wish I still hung out with that person.

Same with friends.

Why do we wait so long and, like, beat ourselves up so much about it?

Because we're human.

If that's the answer.

I mean, we're human. We feel bad, you know, and also, like, we're hopeful. I am fundamentally a believer in the good of human beings. And so we really want to make it work. Like, we really try and we hope that they're going to change or we're going to change, but you know what, you're doing them a disservice.

Yeah, I've realized the exact same thing. And often you don't, like, you don't need to have a God complex if it's not working out for them with you. They are probably perfectly suited for something else and somebody else, and you're holding them back by keeping them with you.

That's how I feel.

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Okay, my favorite topic. So I love lie detection research. In fact, we've done a lot of research in our lab on. We've had people submit videos of themselves lying. We have a whole process for doing it. And then we analyze them for cues, looking for patterns. And there is no Pinocchio's nose. There's no one cue that says someone's lying. But there are statistical cues to deceive. There are cues that we saw over and over again in the lying answers. So here are a couple of those lie detection cues. So the first, most obvious one is when something's incongruent. So someone says something, but their body shows another. So I'll give you a really good example. One of the challenges we have them do is two truths and a lie. Where they say two truths about themselves and a lie on the lie. So many people shook their head no. Whoa. So if you'll see this, if you're like, so what do you think of the new girl? You know, she's. She's great. So a nod. Not in India, Pakistan and Bulgaria. So that's a cultural note on that one. I try to be careful with my universality. But for nodding, if someone says yes, they should be shaking their head yes or neutral. If someone says no, they should be shaking their head no. And you will often catch a lie when someone is incongruent. When they're like, my daughter, I'll be like, did you take an extra cookie? No. And she'll shake her head yes. And I'm like, are you sure? I know another one is. Another incongruent is people will flash a micro expression that is counter to what they're saying. Like a big one with lying is disgust. Lying makes us feel dirty. We do not like to lie. We know it can get us into trouble. And so oftentimes when people lie, they flash a disgust microexpression. Here's what a disgust micro expression looks like when we crinkle our nose up and flash the upper whites of our teeth like this. So you'll see it's very unnatural if you try it. You don't do this naturally, but here's what it looks like when someone's lying. So what do you think about the new girl? Yeah, you know, she's great.

Yeah.

And they're holding that discussed expression, which means not really. Not really. And that's your opportunity. So when you see something incongruent, you say, you know, it's totally fine if like you're not jiving. Like, I know it takes a little bit of time. Do you have any concerns? Usually just one question that clarifies gives them permission to tell you the truth. And so you want to look for incongruent nods, you want to look for incongruent facial expressions. Or like the big obvious one is a fake smile. When someone says they're happy, this is important for sales and important for hiring. Right. So if someone says, yeah, I would be so happy to work here. And their smile is on the bottom half of their face. The only true indicator of a smile is when these upper cheek muscles are activated. So anyone can fake smile. Right. I can do this all day long and not actually feel happy. But only 1 in 10 people can consciously activate these muscles up here.

What if we get Botox hard? So you might never be able to tell.

Don't go to California, although you've got.

A lot of expression overd.

Also, like, I don't think you can actually botox your entire cheek.

No problem. Well, I bet you could. Well, but I don't think you should.

Any activation up here is good. It's a good indicator of happiness because. So if someone. This is important, I think also for like looking for authenticity. So. Right. If someone's like, yeah, you know, I just, I love your company and I've just been following you for years and I just think this is like a dream job.

Do a real one. Do a real one for me.

I love your company. I just, I think it's so, so amazing. I've been following you for years.

Yeah, right.

Like that hit my upper cheekbones. I can consciously activate muscles because I've trained them, but a lot of people cannot. And so you're looking for like, why did she say she was happy but she wasn't actually happy? Same thing with contempt. So I think this is the most powerful of the micro expressions. It's one of my favorite cues. It's a one sided mouth raise. So this smirk, first of all, make sure you don't have it in your profile pictures. That is a micro expression of contempt.

Whoa.

So negativity, disdain, scorn. So if you're with someone and you say, you know, the benefits package actually only includes about seven vacation days, are you okay with that? Yeah, yeah, that's fine.

Not okay.

Not fine. Not fine. You're gonna get pushback on that. That's gonna create resentment. Contempt is a beast of an emotion because it is the seed of disrespect. So Dr. John Gottman, marriage and family counselor, he did a huge research experiment on married couples. He wanted to know if he could predict divorce. He filmed these couples. He did in depth history of these couples. He followed them for years. He found there was one single indicator of which couple would get divorced. And it was in the initial intake interview. One member of the couple showed contempt towards the other. So I can watch a silent video of a couple and tell you with pretty good accuracy if they're going to get divorced. He can watch a video, a silent video of a couple and predict with 93.7% accuracy if that couple will get divorced within 30 years. And that is because contempt, when it comes up, it's a better than it's scorn. If it's not addressed, it festers and it grows. And that's how you get at the end of a marriage. People can't even look at each other. And so if you have an employee or a friend or a partner who is showing contempt at you or something, you say, immediately pause and address it. What can we do here? How are you really feeling about this? Is there anything you want to tell me? That is an opportunity for you to find out what is really going on.

Brilliant. So you notice that somebody in your company has contempt.

Yes.

Because they're doing something like this. They're doing a fake smile.

We have fake smile. One sided mouth raise. Yep.

And then the next thing that you do is you note it. And without going direct at it, you don't say, you look, you say, you.

Can try that but not gonna feel great.

You say, what?

Okay, so you have two options here. Right. So you can just note it as a leader. Especially if it's like in a team meeting, you just noted it. Right. And also what it's about, sometimes people show contempt because they had a bad day. Maybe you mentioned the weekend and they don't like what they have planned for the weekend. So it's only if it's relevant to something that you can actually do or change. Also, you might not be able to change something. You should just note. Okay, they're gonna not feel good about that. Then you have the choice of how are you gonna pursue. I personally like just information gathering. Right. So, hey, I just wanted to follow up with you on the meeting either by email or in person, whichever you prefer. How are you feeling about this change? How are you Feeling about the update. I just want to check in with you and see how everything's going. Do you have any questions for me? Right, like that open ended is step one. Step two is what do they usually.

Say at that point? Do they usually.

Oh, my gosh. Usually they're like, oh, thank goodness you asked me, because let me tell you, I am not happy about this new rollout. And yeah, right. So that's option one. And almost always that works. The second option is you can try again. So you can be like, you can break up the option again. Just want to go over it, make sure it all makes sense. Sometimes people are contemptuous when they're confused. You get some people who are like, why don't I understand this? They're contemptuous about it. So sometimes just re explaining it again, you don't see the contempt. Good. Right. So oftentimes it can even be a clarity issue. Like, sometimes a mistake I see entrepreneurs make is you say, so what's your business? What do you do? And they give you the most complicated answer I've ever heard in a million years. And you see people like, okay, cool, right? They're not contemptuous of you. They don't understand, and they're contemptuous of that. So if you're introducing yourself, you're explaining something, you're like, gosh, Vanessa, I'm seeing this contempt everywhere. You are over complicating it. You need to go for clarity over confusion. People should be able to very quickly understand what you do and who you are and what you want from them.

Now I find myself smirking because you've done that so many times.

You're mirroring me.

I'm mirroring you.

Okay, so that's a funny thing, is also, like, mirror neurons are absolutely unconscious. And now you probably want to smirk because you can see I'm activating these muscles. Right? And you're even doing the same side, which is kind of funny. So that is a very human response. So mirror neurons activate when we see someone make an emotion. This is another reason why emotions are contagious. If you show up and you were excited about your business, excited about whatever you're pitching, that you're showing so many cues of excitement, and then you can't help but smile with me. If you are fake smiling, you are less contagious. Dr. Barbara Wilde found this. She showed people two pictures. One of people authentically smiling and one of people fake smiling. Everyone who saw the happy, the real smile caught it. Their mood got better. Everyone who saw the fake smile, even though they didn't know it was a fake smile, had no behavior change, no mood change. So when we are truly happy, we are literally more infectious. So, yes, I think our mirror neurons are a big part of, like, getting yourself right. And also, like, love your business, love your people, because it's real hard to fake it.

Yeah. Let's talk about the difference between men and women.

Okay.

Is there a difference in men and women and what you need to do to be attractive and likable?

Oh, my goodness. Okay, so two questions here. So there is big differences between men and women, and that is because men and women send off inherently different cues and different signals. Typically, not always. Women have higher voice tones, Right? Typically, not always. Women use the question inflection more. And that's cultural. Right. A lot of times women have been taught, be liked, so they're as parents. Not always, but their warmth, warmth, warmth. Whereas boys are taught, get ahead, be respected. So they're often taught competence, competence, competence. So in the research, by the way, this is Dr. Susan Fiske's research from Princeton University, she found. She calls it the stereotype content model, which is that women by default are seen as higher in warmth and lower incompetence. Men, by default, are seen as higher in competence and lower in warmth. Now, I say great to know. Like, I would rather know that. That is why I dial up my competence in my presentations when I'm corporate speaking. The name of my business is science of people. Right? Like, that is the most competent name that you could possibly have. Because I know I'm fighting a default that's higher and warmth. But I also use that to my advantage sometimes as well. So it's just important to know that default for you. And then you can purposefully dial up as you wish. You know, you have a higher incompetence and you have to work towards warmth. Right. Like, we gotta get you some pink, get you some lace. Right. We gotta work on it.

I'm doing the makeup and you're nodding.

You know, but like, but that's. That puts us in control. So I'm like, yes, let's know these biases because we are then in control of being able to dial up as we wish.

Yeah. How do you see women do it wrong? Because I've seen in the workplace, at least, there was a generation where, you know, they had to be tougher, right? They had to show super high levels of competence, otherwise they wouldn't get ahead. And then in my opinion, something went a little sideways there for a while where, because we had to do that for so long. Then we kind of overcorrected, and we went too hard. And so do you ever see common mistakes women make on the level of moving from warmth to competence?

Yes. And it is two words. Vocal fry. I don't know why, but there is an epidemic for women, more specifically, where they'll say a really great idea, but they don't deliver it well because they're a little bit nervous about it. And so they deliver it with a little bit of, like, vocal fry. So they change their voice tone. So, like, it's more like here, where you hear that kind of sizzling factor. Well, it's really hard to, like, believe an idea when it's delivered like this.

It makes me want to cry for some reason. I feel, like, uncomfortable for you. I feel like getting watery. It's horrible. That's awful.

And so I hear this all the time, and I think it's, like, a fear or a lack of assertiveness. And so that is one of the biggest things that women can do to immediately take back their vocal competence is speak louder. If you have vocal fry and you're like, how do I get rid of this? Just speak a little bit louder. It immediately gets rid of it. That is because the moment you add more breath, it gets vocal fry. Gross. Is your vocal cords rubbing together like crickets. That's what it is. So the moment you add more breath, it gets rid of it. If you hear someone underserving themselves, like an employee or someone is pitching and they're using vocal fry, say, hey, would you mind speaking up? It will immediately get rid of their vocal fry. So that. That's a really big cue that I see. And women don't understand why they're not being taken seriously or they're being interrupted or they're being underestimated or they're being passed over.

Interesting.

It's because they're accidentally giving it away.

What about men?

Hmm? Men. It's so hard to make universals with men. Ah, no, I know it. I know it.

Ugh.

This drives me crazy. Men think that to be powerful is to be stoic and unreadable. So recently, especially, I see men who are like, oh, Vanessa, I don't. I don't need cues. I have no cues. And they will be these leaders who are. They've gotten rid of all facial expressions. They've literally learned to keep their face completely still. They have no movement, no nodding, no head tilting. They literally sit and listen to ideas completely still with no give back. The problem with that is no cues is a Cue in itself, we understand muting, like muting as a problem with charisma. So when you are mute or you under express, it immediately gets rid of your warmth and your competence. So I see these leaders who have trained themselves to go completely still typically male, and they're like, why doesn't my team open up to me? Why is everyone quitting? Why can't I close these deals? And I'm like, it's because you are so still faced. And this is something called the still face experiment. When you are with someone and I am completely still face and we still body, it is so physically hard for you to open up to me. Like if you were making no movement and no encouragement and no facial expressions, it would be physically hard for me to talk. And so a mistake that I see men make is they mute and they don't realize that they are losing. It's costing them loyalty.

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Oh, yeah, I've been.

You've been in there.

Yeah.

You're also. You're married to some amazing captain. Yeah. You know, because a lot of military men are taught that to survive.

Oh, for sure.

So I have so many amazing vets. We love our vets. And the problem they have is they've, they've gotten rid of all their cues because it was risky for them and so they used no cues to survive, literally. And now they have to relearn. What cues am I going to pick to do this? One of the first cues I teach men, by the way, if this is you, if you're like, oh man, I totally, I totally under emote. Like no one can read my face. People are going to tell you you're cold, intimidating, hard to talk to. That's how you know that's you. One of the first cues I'm going to teach you is visible hands. So this works also in the military. So a lot of folks that we have in the military, they'll use this because Visible Hands is an immediate trust signal. It immediately warms you up, especially in your first impression the moment you hop on a video call. Morning, good to see everyone. That one cue, it wasn't a lot of movement, but it's very easy to do. It's a greeting, it's warmth. Right. When you're talking, the more you can have your palms out, palms visible. We love to see a palm. It's an immediate warmth cue.

Interesting.

And it's much easier typically for men than like, howdy, they're not going to do that with their face. So, you know, even like. Let me tell you about an idea that we have coming up. Just that, just that one palm flash. A palm flash is really nice for like, I'm open, I'm open to your ideas. I'm not concealing anything. It actually goes back to like a very primal part of our brain. We love to see a palm. We. At our lab, I analyzed thousands of hours of TED talks with my team, looking for patterns. And what we found was the difference between the viral TED talks and the least viral TED talks were. The most viral TED speakers used an average of over 400 hand gestures in 18 minutes, whereas the least viewed TED talks used about 270 gestures in 18 minutes. What's happening here? The best TED talks all start the same way, like this. Today I want to talk to you about a big idea. We're going to talk about three different ways it can change your life.

That is true.

They're all like TED Talk. And it's also the TED Talk voice, right? Like there is a TED Talk voice. And like for some reason, like, I can be like, I'm going to say something and it's going to be so important. And you just know that because of the words that I'm using. And that voice tone tells you that this is something that we have to remember. Because you know what? 30% of people believe that I'm not saying anything, but my vocal tone is cueing you. So there's a voice tone for TED and there's a hand gesture for ted. First of all, the best TED talkers, they greet everyone on stage with an open gesture, right? Big open gestures. And then they typically align their gestures with their words. The most competent, charismatic speakers are explaining their concepts to you with their visual gestures and their words. So if I were to say to you, Cody, I have a really big idea, it's huge. You're like, it's not. Vanessa. I can see how small it is. It's really small. And that is because your brain believes my gesture more than my word. They've actually shown that gestures carry more weight than words. Because it's hard to lie with our gestures. Like, let's try an experiment. I want you to say three, but hold up five. Okay, ready? Three. Horribly hard.

Hard to do.

Hard. You can try that. It's so hard.

I thought you gave me a little time. I pictured it in my head, and I can do it.

Your brain does not like lying with gestures. So very charismatic speakers, they get on TED stage, they have visible gestures. This is for all my stoic men, right? You have a visible gesture, and then you're going to align. So if you have three big ideas, just hold three big ideas. Right? If we have phase one and phase two, we have those two phases. It's very easy for you to picture that politically. You'll notice that very good political speakers, they are literally outlining their talk for you with their gestures. If they have a really small idea, they're like, this is no big deal. Look how small it is. Right? If they're like, this is a big problem. You're like, whoa, it's beach ball big. It's big, Right? Right. If they're like. And you'll notice, some people will be like, you know the other guys over here? And every time they talk about those other guys, they show disgust and, like, it's smelly, that hand. And you begin to associate that hand with those bad guys. And then he or she doesn't even have to say about those guys. You just know those horrible guys. So, like, that makes it easier for our brains to grok very complicated concepts. I'm getting ahead of myself, but I think that that's. It's important to think about it both.

How many views did your TED talk get?

Over 4 million, girl.

Yeah. You were, like, one of the most viewed TED talks of all time.

All time. All time. But that research got me my ted.

That's wild.

So that the research on TED and how we're contagious from stage is what got me.

So one other thing that I want to talk about is do you feel like we nailed the how you got tricked into a bad hire? The abcd? I thought we did, too. I did it with a different question.

I liked it.

What about the biggest mistakes that people can make in communicating their ideas internally to their company, not just externally? So we talked about how to open up meetings. We talked about how to do pitches. But you and I obsess all day when we're talking about how do we build bigger companies and how do we sell internally. And I don't think a lot of people think about that. So what do bad leaders do or what mistakes do we make when we communicate internally?

What people don't realize is that your internal marketing to your team is just as important as your external marketing. You've got to get your team on board on an idea and how you want. I think the mistake that you will make is they frame ideas or initiatives or phases as like vitamins, as like this is good for the team. So like a vitamin idea would be like, guys, our software is really out of date and we gotta switch to that new lms, we gotta switch to that new CRM software. It's gonna be good for the team. I know it's gonna be painful, but we gotta do it. What team member is gonna be like, yeah, whoa. You as a business owner can do vitamin things for your business. You can do things that are good for the business, that have long term, short term pain, but long term gain. Your team members aren't thinking that way. You're lucky if they're thinking six months to a year at your company. So you want to try to emphasize what is the painkiller? Why is this going to help us immediately? That's going to help them get over that short term pain. So the difference between a vitamin and pain killer vitamin is like, this is good for us. It's going to be really, you know, we should do it. A painkiller is like, you know how you're having lower close rates because we lose contact cards? That problem will be gone next week. Literally gone. Now we're going to have to set up some stuff. We're going to have to do the back end, but that will no longer be a complaint for you. It fixes the problem in day one. Now that's one feature of the new CRM or the new software. But if you know that is a complaint of your sales team, that's how you're going to your sales team. That pain point you've been coming to me about for the last six months, it's gonna fix it. Done. I prioritize that for you. Now there's 15 other things that has to be done. But boy, oh boy, don't you want to get rid of that headache? And maybe for the HR team, it's like, hey, you know how we've been? It's been a nightmare tracking all this, all the Contact with people. No more. This totally fixes all of it. It puts it all in one place.

Brilliant.

So it's. It's painkillers, not vitamins. Even internally.

Yeah. We talk a lot about issues with communicating with our spouses because we're actually buddies in real life. Yes. And we also have a friend who's, like, sort of a relationship guru person. So I know you and I typically don't love to talk about our relationships publicly, so let's do it, like, externally, but, like, these days, man, I mean, we have people getting married later than ever. We have people having less sex. We have people being in less committed relationships.

Divorce is up.

Divorce is up. I think it's hard for young people finding somebody. What advice do you have or what research do you have to show how to better connect with a member of the opposite sex if you're single?

Okay, so I want to actually answer this in two ways. I want to answer it for single people, and I want to answer it for coupled people. Okay, so this is amazing research. It changed my relationship with my husband and actually some close family members, which is. Dr. Dan McAdams found that we connect through three different levels when we're with someone we're trying to pass through. First, level one, general traits. What do you do? Where you're from? What's your value system? Very, very basics. Level two, personal concerns. What worries you? What are your motivations? What are your goals? Level three, the hardest one. We're not there with most people in our life. Self narrative. What is the story you tell yourself about yourself? And so in single people, I think what's really important is understanding those three levels and knowing how to break through from level one to level three. You can do this with 15 questions. So we've actually been diving into this research, and I found five questions for each level level that you can actually use to break through. So, for example, in the very first level, I want you to ask about, so this is not just, what do you do? It's what excites you. What's been the highlight of your week? What are you learning right now? Those are questions that are like, not just like, where do you vacation? Like, not just like, oh, what do you do for fun. Right. Like, they're questions that are actually beginning to untangle some deeper connective tissue. Then you want to try to graduate. Like, you want to actually move to level two questions. Level two questions are, you know, you're on level two with someone. If, you know, what do they worry about when they fall asleep at Night, what do they think about when they get up in the morning? If you don't know the answer to those questions, you're not close enough, right? Like, I think I probably know what keeps you up at night and what gets you in the morning. I think you know that about me too, right? So you should also be doing this with your friend, your friends. But literally asking, like, what worries you? What's the thing that keeps you up at night? What motivates you? What are you driving towards? What's your biggest goal this year? So those are value based personality questions. And the last level, and this is the hardest one, is what's the story they tell themselves about themselves? I think what's really important is you want to know what their narrative is. And in our research, and this is new research, I'm finding there are basically three different self narratives. And you want to know what you're getting into. The first one is my favorite. It's a hero self narrative. You want a hero if you can. In a relationship, a hero self narrative is something like this. I have challenges and problems, but with hard work and grit and determination, I overcome them. And that is their narrative for everything. Their childhood, their work, their workout routine. Like you have. Choose your heart. Like that is a self. That is a perfect example of a hero self narrative. You'll find something, conquer it, and then be done with it. Have success with it. You like that because in a relationship that sets you up for success, they know it's not easy, right? Like, they know it might take a little bit of hard work, but they want the success. Success. The second self narrative, I call a healer self narrative. This is typically someone who their entire life is giving. Like they're always trying to fix and heal. They're typically in social work, teaching, the medical profession. They are givers. And that can be a problem. It's not a bad thing. But it can be a problem because they typically are people pleasers. They typically don't sign up for themselves. They're also the friend who says yes to everything and then cancels last minute, right? Like, you know, because they cannot say no in the moment because they really want to, but they are so overextended. But you should know that going into a relationship that you might have stand up for them and they'll probably overextend themselves, right? Or you might be in a relationship where you want a healer. The last one is the one you want to watch out for, which is a victim self narrative. A victim self narrative starts like the hero challenges mistakes Problems that they couldn't overcome, that no matter how hard they work, they weren't able to change anything. They typically are the ones who feel they have very bad luck. And over and over again, these are the friends where it's like nothing's ever fixed. You give them advice, they can't figure it out. Woe is me. Everyone's against me. You want to watch out for that. Because they will never be able to get out of that if that's how they see their whole life. That's literally their narrative about how their life goes. So as a single person, if you can try to answer those questions, go through them, I'm happy to give them away. They're on my website. Ask those questions early. Send them to your group chats. Ask the first three and then the second three ask them on different dates because then you're purposely connecting and you're moving up the levels. If you're in a relationship, I highly Recommend do all 15 questions once a year.

Yeah, it's brilliant.

The answers change. It is amazing when I ask my husband some of these questions how his answers have changed. I've been with my husband for 18 years and it is amazing how much his answers and my answers have changed. And so every year on our anniversary, we ask and answer all 15 questions. And that has been a game changer. I'll give you one example with a friend. So one of the Level 3 questions is what book, movie or TV character is most like you and why? It's a value based question. So it's not like who looks like you? It's like, what character really has values like you? I had a really good friend I'd known for years. I thought we were super close. I was like, oh yeah, we're on level three. Mom of three, stay at home mom, funny, smart. I was like, oh yeah. Her self narrative is probably like a funny TV mom. Like, that's her. I asked her this question immediately. She's like, oh, Katniss Everdeen from the Hunger Games. I was like, what? She's like, oh, yeah. I feel like I'm surviving every day. We had the best conversation that we had ever had. She was living a life that I had no idea. True hero self narrative, which I knew, but I had no idea how much struggle she was having. And so these questions unlock aspects of people that truly can change and level up your connections.

That's so beautiful too, because all anybody really wants is somebody to listen to them and somebody to show them a.

Little love and someone to understand them.

Yeah.

You want to be listened to, but you also want to be understood.

Yeah, that's true.

These questions are seeking to understand.

Yeah, that's right. Because it's not enough to just listen. Yeah, I hear you. I don't really understand.

Exactly. So these questions are not just like, what do you do for fun? Oh, that's cool. I don't like that. Yeah, right. These are, like, questions that are specifically geared toward, like, what is the narrative in their head? And if you're going to be with someone in a marriage or a friendship, you want to know how they're talking to themselves, because you know what? That's going to be, how they talk to you.

Yeah, it's brilliant. Yeah. And also, I think, on top of that, how much more interesting are you if your conversations go that way? I mean, could you imagine a first day, you have those 15 questions prepped, you weave them in. Don't be a psychopath, and, like, you know, interrogate them through this. Through the questions. I mean, don't do it. I mean, I feel like. But if you weave that in with, like, the, you know, you can't start with.

And the level one questions are actually like that.

Right. You can't be excited about that.

What's your deepest fear? Date one. No, that's level two. And actually, that's a mistake that people make in dating is they are trying to speed up. They're trying to speed up connection. So they ask a level two question, the person is totally freaked out. No, level one questions are like sneakers. They're, like, sneaky questions. They're getting to a little bit of depth. They don't sound really bad. So, yeah, you want to weave them in. I also am a big fan of, like, listen, I watched this great podcast with Cody and Vanessa, and they had these 15 questions for new couples. Like, would you be willing to try the first three?

Cute, right?

Like, transparent. Warm. Vulnerable. Like, you're competent. You're listening to Cody's podcast.

Yeah.

You're warm when you really want to ask them.

Yeah, Right.

Like, I am for radical transparency. Like, you know, if I don't want to do something, I'm like, nah, I'm not doing it. Right. Like, you do. I am for it. And so, like, I'm like, you want to ask them 15 questions because you like them. Tell them, I like you so much that I want to go to level three with you. But we're on day one, so can we start with the first three questions? Right. Like, your face looks bad. Are you contemptuous of me? Please tell me, like, I'm for it.

Yeah, I'm for it.

And so that's, by the way, like, you asked about likable and attractive. And that's what makes us likeable and attractive, is we're asking, like, really intentional questions that are opening up the lines of connection in a totally different way.

Hey, y'. All, I don't know about you guys, but this podcast is killing me. She is so good. So if you are loving this podcast, like, I am like a little possum digging in trash, just looking for buried treasure, I think you should make sure to give this a. A review. We are obsessing on this one idea, which is, can we get a bunch of humans to tell us what you really think about this podcast, what you want, what you don't? I read every single one of the reviews on there. So put your little mitts on those five stars if you feel like it and give us some feedback. I appreciate every single one of you. Let's go back to Vanessa. I want to talk really quickly about introverts in business.

Yes.

Because you sort of specialize as being a self prescribed, recovering awkward person.

I'm a recovering awkward person.

And you talk a lot about how you can be awkward and introverted in business and it can be okay.

It's totally okay.

So I know this is a huge topic that you speak a lot about at Science of people, but if you had to leave somebody with a little sprinkling, as somebody in business who really wants to be successful but is introverted, what typical advice do you give?

Okay, so first things first, is you have to find your recipe for charisma. I think that I used to believe as an awkward person, this is what unlocked my awkwardness, is there was only one type of charisma that to be liked to be successful in business. I've been running my business for 15 years. Right. Like, I put my first video on YouTube in 2007, and I thought, to be successful on YouTube, I'm so old. I know.

Me doing my job, between the two of us. I know.

So in 2007, I thought the only way to be popular on YouTube was to be a bubbly extrovert. Yeah, I literally thought that was the only type of charisma. But actually there are different flavors of charisma. You can absolutely be the quiet, powerful introvert. You can be the empathetic healer. You can be the wise question asker. And I think once I was so awkward because I was faking being an extrovert. I am not an Extrovert. So the key is, stop pretending to be an extrovert. You do not have to be an extrovert to be successful in business. But you do have to find your flavor. So the question is, what is your social strength? Is it storytelling? Is it being funny and humble? Right. Like, I think Taylor Swift has a great, a great social strength of being grateful in a stadium full of 50,000 people. That is hard. Like Usher, when he walks out, he's like, what?

What?

Yeah, I deserve you being here, right? Like, that's his vibe and that totally works for Usher, but that does not work for Taylor Swift. And if she tried to do that, people wouldn't like it.

Comment if you remember who Usher is, if you're old like us, because I feel like you're also dating us now. The thing is, back when Bach is playing in Mozart this season. Oh no.

Mozart, my friend Mozart.

But you're right. So she can have a totally different vibe than a rapper.

Yes. And so I think, like, find your vibe. Like, social skills come small. Like, it's not just like presenting. It's storytelling, it's using memes, it's being funny, it's sharing a case study. It's one to one. Like, for example, as a leader, I know one to one, I do really well. Like, I prioritize those meetings because I just do better in them than like the big all hands kind of meetings.

But you're such a good presenter.

That surprises me on like a big stage for sure. But like on our team of like 10, you know what I mean? I'm like, are you okay? Are you okay? Are you okay?

Are you okay?

Is everyone okay? Like, it's actually like very hard. So we have one big call week. That's it. Otherwise it's one on ones with me. So, like, understand what your strength is. Like what down to the specific skill, is it presenting art, keynotes, being funny, Right? So like understand your specific strength and don't be afraid to be vulnerable. Like, I think a little story is I was at a really an invite only muckety muck event here in Austin with a lot of VIPs, a lot of really important people who live in Austin. Like the most important people in Austin, like, they were there, right? It was this huge mansion. And so I get invited and I'm like, why was I invited? I do not deserve to be here. And like I walk in like awkward penguin, you know, and they put us all in a circle. There was 30 of us, 25 of us. They put us all in a Circle. And they go one by one. We're gonna introduce ourselves. And I'm not joking, okay? Someone was like, well, I founded insert huge company that you definitely know. And I'm, like, a billionaire and I own the world. The next person was like, I cured cancer, and. And I'm curing future cancers that don't exist, and I am an amazing doctor. And, like, it was, like, insane, okay? Going around the circle, and I'm just like. Like, it's getting to me. I'm like, I'm a YouTuber. Write books and people like, you know what I mean? Like, just so it gets to me, and I'm like, I'm a recovering awkward person. And the whole circle was like. And starts to laugh. Like, everyone's like, oh, me too. Me too. Me too. And I was like. And I help awkward smart people connect. If you're awkward and you don't have anyone to talk to later, just come find me. I have a YouTube channel and a couple books. I will tell you, every single. Almost every single person after me referenced me. They were like, I'm awkward. Like, her laugh again. Cute laughter. And after the circle broke up, everyone in the circle came to talk to me, including the important muckety mucks over here, because they were also very awkward. And so it just. It made me realize, like, don't pretend. Don't fake it. Don't show off. Let people impress you. Stop trying to impress them and be a little vulnerable. It's okay to say that you wish you were home watching Netflix. Like, it's okay to say, you know what? I have a. At night, I do my passion project, and during the day, I drive Uber, right? Like, stop flexing. Like, I think it's okay to be vulnerable and be like, my passion. I'm doing this, and we're getting to the next level, but we're having some trouble with staffing, if you know anyone. Like, that's how we actually impress people.

You know what's interesting, though, is you do it in a way where you don't give up your competence. And so I think that's the really hard part. Like, I know when I was first getting on the Internet, after being in finance for a long time, and I didn't really want to explain that I ran a media company and I had this holding company. I would say, like, I make TikToks.

I was friends with you when you used to say that. I'd be like, girl, yeah.

And I think at that point, it was because I didn't want to explain more and it was like an out. It was a little bit of an out. But it's not a great out. Because when you're in rooms with those important people, you don't want them to go, oh, well, she's got an onlyfans. I think they did. They're like, oh, that bitch. Can I slide her and Bill later?

Gonna look you up. How do you spell your name?

CO D I E, capital D. Anyway, so I think the point is you really have to think about how can you be vulnerable without losing your competence. Do you have opinions or advice on how to do that? Because yours is perfect. You're like, I am recovering, AKA I'm not all the way awkward. Lots of people who are smart consider themselves awkward. I do X thing, which shows competence, followed by two really impressive things. Author and I have a big media company, but it's perfectly crafted.

You would not be watching this if you don't have a good business idea. Right. And so I think being vulnerable is being true and sharing your good idea. I also think if you can add a credibility marker, it helps. For example, I noticed that when I added Wall Street Journal's best selling book, it immediately upped my perceived credibility because anyone can have a best selling book on Amazon in the category of awkward people. No. So that was like, okay, so is there a way in your. For example, if I say, I'm a recovering awkward person, I have a TED Talk about being awkward. That's a credibility marker that I can very quickly say, or I have bestselling books through Penguin Random House. Right. Like, so in the beginning of my career, I was saying TED Talk. I was saying Penguin Random House. I was saying, like, the big credibility markers, like, I just got asked to teach a Harvard class. You can bet I'll be adding that into my bio. So the more that you can add them, sprinkle them in. Credibility markers are good. Right. And it can be the counterbalance to your warmth.

Yeah. It's brilliant. Yeah. I also think you can find one that's not so serious. If you're not perfectly skilled like Vanessa is. You could say, like, I am a ravenous pickleball player.

That's it.

Totally.

Yes.

Why could that work? Because pickleball. Nobody looks cool playing pickleball.

Right.

And if you add, no, you know, nobody looks cool. No, it's an ad. The Internet hates me for this. But. And then saying a word. They love you by saying a word like, I am a top tier pickleballer. I am a ravenous pickleballer.

Right. Totally.

It's an immediate chuckle.

Yes. Or like even like by night I do, you know, or like my day job is this. But like my passion project is this. Like, we like words like that. Passion project. Ravenous. Amateur. Like, you can say those things like recovering in its own way. Or like, I also love. I teach my students to do like blank turned blank. So I have a lot of like pivoters. I have a lot of students who are like, I was a lawyer and now I want to be a nonprofit runner or whatever. Nonprofit runner. Owner of a nonprofit. Like, I don't even know. Yeah, I have a lot of students who like have pivoted and they're like, how do I say? Like, I was legit a lawyer and I chosen this. I'm like turned. So like, I'm a lawyer turned nonprofit. I'm a student. But my passion project is that I'm build. I'm coding my own software blank. So you. That is a narrative, by the way. Like, I think people are afraid to in an elevator pitch. Or like, I teach my students. It's called a logline. Like a logline is like a one sentence phrase that gets people hooked. And every movie in Hollywood comes log line. And so you should have a logline. It should be a one sentence hook to what you do. And it should be a story and you can do it in one sentence. Like me saying I'm a recovering awkward person turned YouTuber. That's a story. That's an interesting. You're like, what? Like, I want to hear. So it's like, I'm a scuba dive instructor turned family law lawyer. Like, we like a story like that. And so I think that if you can do not. I'm a bleh.

Yeah, it's the hero's journey.

Totally. And you can do that in one sentence.

You know, former nerd turned spider man.

There you go. Exactly.

I think on my book they put in reformed Wall street investor turned small business owner.

By the way, her book is so good.

Well, you know why?

So I did get her own copy and I edited the shit out of.

It and it was had the best feedback also.

So good.

Guys, you know what's really fun is when you. When you know your friends, finding ones who their love language is some portion of what you need to like you. I remember you said explicitly to me, I want to be the best editing help of anybody of all of our friend group.

I'm highly competitive and I wanted to be. I wanted to give the best advice. I'm highly competitive and like it Was fun. It was fun for me to do it. And I said, am I the best? Oh, you were the best, Fernando. We have a friend.

We have one friend.

We have one friend who competed with me on the editing. But it is so good. Like, if you have not ordered it yet, it is so, so good. The edits I had were small in comparison to the book.

No, they were really important.

You know, the edits.

I think a couple of the things that you taught me the most about communication in general is one, that story's more memorable than stat. And so, like, make sure if you're gonna tell some statistics, wrap it in.

A story so can remember.

And then you also mentioned a lot about how this is about the reader. So, you know, we had a lot of diagrams and data and stuff in there, beautiful diagrams. And you're like, get to the point. And why do they care? Yeah, and we. So we did that really tight up front because I wanted to make sure that people lasted through that first chapter to get into the meet. And that was really helpful.

I also think, like, this is for anyone, whether you're writing a book or starting a business is like, you want to compliment the person who is reading it. You want to compliment the person who is buying it. You want to compliment the person who visited. Who deigned to visit your page. You want to compliment the person who opened your email. Like, I've been writing an email newsletter for literally 14 years. Like, it took me one year to get my.

And it's huge.

Moodletter is huge. I personally write every single word because I know that I should be letting them impress me. I should be over delivering. I should be aggressively helpful. And so I think it's the same thing as, like, how can you compliment your person? Like, how can you ask the right questions or set them up for success? Like, that is a way we spread goodness.

It's so good. Okay, I want to close out with something a little bit different that I don't think you talk about very much, which is you are one of the categorically happiest business people I know, and you have the best balance in your business while running a business with quite a lot of zeros. And so I know you're private about a lot of this, but what do you think the key has been to moving from somebody who did 452 videos, all of the different businesses, every speaking spot, to two podcasts this year that you've done? You know, taking an entire summer off. Really? Sabbatical.

AI take summer sabbaticals?

Yeah. Oh, yeah, You've taken now multiple. And you have two wonderful kids and a beautiful husband. Like, what's your secret?

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

It's an annoyance.

How often do I say that to you?

A lot.

A lot, a lot.

Every other day.

I don't have a podcast. I can do a podcast. Should I do a podcast? No, because I should go on everyone else's. That is better. I have a newsletter, and I put everything into that because I should be doing that, because that is a direct line of communication with my people. TikTok don't care. I'm on there because my team has forced me. Like, I shouldn't do it. I shouldn't be making reels for TikTok.

And you don't post it yourself. No, that's all done third party now.

It doesn't convert. And so I think, like, it's very important for a business owner to focus relentlessly on what is actually converting to your business. And I mean, dollars. Right? Like, I have a tight team. Like, we want to keep overhead as low as possible. Like, if it is not converting, if a job role is not converting, it is not a role. And so it's all the things you could do. Making a big list. Then every year we make a big list of all the things we could do. And then we play stop, start, continue. And this is my favorite game to play. And we do it all the time. It's like, okay, what should we stop doing? Is this actually converting this role, this task, this person down to. I realized that checking my inbox was not converting into actual work, and so I figured out how to outsource it to my assistant, who is amazing. Shout out Carolyn. So that she can actually go through my inbox and do everything that needs to be done with a very precise system. So that I'm spending now 10 minutes every other day on email as opposed to three hours a day. That was really painful. It took six months to get rid of my inbox, but it was not converting. So that went on the stop list. What is actually converting? That's continue. That's the shortest list. Right? Like, what you're actually continuing. And then stop is if it's not converting or it's draining your soul, it has to stop because it takes a while to undo things.

Yeah, it's so true. Totally selfish question for me. You get a lot of asks. Vanessa, come on this show. Come speak here. Come do that here. How do you respond to things and teach your team to respond to things? So that the person who gets your nose feels like it's lovely, thinks so highly of you. Everybody always loves you. What's the secret?

I'm like, yes, everybody knows.

They do.

No radical transparency and vulnerability. So it sounds like this. Thank you so much for this podcast offer. You know Vanessa is on a podcast Sabbatical. Because she hates them. Welcome to Walgreens. Looking for a holiday gift?

Sort of. My cousin Freddie showed up to surprise us.

Oh, sounds like a real nice surprise.

Exactly. So now I have to get him a gift, but I haven't gotten my bonus yet. So if we can make it something really nice but also not break the bank, that'd be perfect.

How about a keurig for 50% off.

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I did you. I did, Mel. Because I like you both, and this is fun. Yeah. Otherwise, I don't like it.

Yeah, right.

Like. Like, seriously. Or like, my favorite one is, like, if it's personal, like. Like, someone texts me and they're like, can you. Can you speak at my conference? I want to speak at your conference. That was the easy one. Like, I don't want to speak at someone and I say, you know what? I would love to. I'm so honored you thought of me, but my plate is as full as I like right now. Yeah, my plate is as full as I like right now. I also love the word sabbatical. Like, I am on a podcast sabbatical. I'm not doing new podcasts when I'm in summer sabbatical. I am on summer sabbatical. I maybe, maybe work five hours a week in summers because I want to spend time with my kids. And so, like, it's very. People understand it's not personal to you. I am literally on a summer sabbatical. I'm not doing calls. I'm Doing mini calls, I'm not doing pitches, I'm on email. I schedule all my content out. I'm off, I'm out. And that makes people feel like it's personal to them. So radical transparency and blaming a system. Blaming a system works so well. Sabbatical. Vanessa's not doing any speaking events in the fall. Sorry. Oh, you know, Vanessa's recovering from her book tour. She'll pick back up in December. That's a system. People cannot fight against the system. But that means you gotta have systems.

Well, that's a really good point. So that's basically the structure is if you want to respond to things but have the other person almost thank you for the response. It's first, profusely thank them. Gratitude, appreciation. Because that's honest.

Yes.

Second is have a system in place where you say, because of X system, Y action will or will not work.

Yes. Because of X system, it will not work. And it's nothing personal to you, but you can't fight it because it's a system or a very real and vulnerable thing that if I say I hate people, you don't want me to come. Like, for example, Nick, Rick, love, love Nick Ray. He invites me to some things and I go and I love it. But some things, I'm like, I don't like people same. And I literally write back and I'm like, I don't like people enough to go to that I'm awkward. He goes, I know, right? And like, that is a very real and vulnerable share. Or like, sometimes people invite me to things and I'm like, it's after 9pm I don't do after 9pm That's a personal system. It's like, oh, she doesn't do after 9:00pm and you know what? You wouldn't want me after 9:00pm Oh, a thousand percent.

You would not want me same.

And so I think if it's a vulnerable share that people wouldn't want that, then it's easy to say no.

Yeah, Vulnerable share and maybe even a little humor.

I've tried to be funny, you know, I try to be funny.

Yeah. Well, it makes a huge difference if you're like, you know, and I think trying to teach your team too. It's one thing we're working on in my team right now is like teaching your team how to say no super graciously, with boundaries and even a little bit of sense of humor. And I think that thing that you talked about, which is like a shadow, influence, blame. So it's like, I can't do this because system. I can't do this because promises to the business. I can't do this because whatever, then you're never the blame. They're not the blame. This other third party is the blame. Yes.

And one more thing I'll add there is. We found a lot of success with, like, you know what, Vanessa's on podcast sabbatical. We're going to add your podcast to a list so that if and when she decides to pick it back up or she has a book launch coming up, we can reach out to you.

Yeah.

And by the way, that happens, you know, like, when I have a launch, I'm like, you know what, time for some podcasts. And then I like it because I actually have things to talk about. Right. I have new research. I have new things. So adding a list really helps. Like, even, like, I'll have people who are like, I'm in Austin for the week. Do you want to hang out? And I'm like, no, because, like, it's a. It's a hard week. And so I'll be like, I'm so sorry. I'm in a low people season right now. But next time you come, please reach out. Like, it's the next time. So you can create a list and you have to be genuine about it. But I think that that also really helps people feel like it's not just no end. So if you have speaking event requests or podcasts, you can say, let me add you to a list when and if Cody can do it or I can do it. I would love to. But right now I am focusing 100% on the book launch or 100% on my people or I've also had friends who are like, this literally happened to me last week. I have a little girls dinner that I do, and I picked an expensive restaurant. And that was shame on me. I shouldn't have done that. And my friend said, I'm so sorry, I can't afford to eat out right now. It's been hard for the business. I was like, I am so sorry. How did I do that? And so she was super honest with me and was really transparent. And I was like, oh, my gosh, let's go to. Let's go somewhere super easy. Let's do a picnic. And then we had a really great, deep discussion. So even that being like, hey, I'm pinching pennies for the business. I can't go to Costa Rica right now with you. You. Yeah, like, don't make an excuse. Like, say the truth.

Yep, that's so Beautiful. Okay. It's tough out there in the world right now. We're getting communicated negatively everywhere.

Not my Instagram. We're very positive.

You are very positive on your Instagram and YouTube. I think the newsletter, like, if you're gonna sign up for one thing, it should be like Science of People, the newsletter.

I'm very proud of my artisanal, organic, handcrafted newsletter.

It's really good. That's how it feels, and it's so you should definitely go to Science of People. But what would you want to leave people with? To leave them on that little bit of a high note in a world that's a little negative?

Can I share a story?

I would love a story.

So this fundamentally changed how I interact. And it was about being likable. And one of the fears I have about awkwardness is that I'm deeply unlikable. That is something that I really fight with. And so I found this study, and what these researchers did is they wanted to figure out what makes someone likable. So he followed thousands of high school students across a variety of high schools, and he categorized them based on popularity. And then he looked at every variable he could think of. Athleticism, gpa, humor, attractiveness. Like, everything he could think of. And there was one predictor across all the grades and all the high schools. Yes, there were popular kids who were athletic or smart, but there was one that all the popular kids across all the schools had. They had the longest list of people that they liked, Meaning that if you want to be likable, all you have to do is go around aggressively liking people.

That's wild.

That's so cool. It totally reframed for me. Like, all I need to do is stop worrying about being likable or being impressive or being funny or being whatever. Actually, what I have to do is find ways to aggressively like the people that I'm with. Asking better questions, searching for good, assuming good, expecting good. And so what I would leave you with is, if you want to be more likeable, you need to be hunting for good in others, in every conversation, in every email and every discussion. It's like, how can I like this person more? That is such a better way to be internally, but it's also, like, a beautiful way to be externally.

That's so pretty. May I ask you sort of a personal question?

Of course.

Why were you worried about being profoundly dislikable? Where do you think that comes from?

I don't know. I think I'm different. You know, I think I'm a little Different. Like, even you will say to me, like, vanessa, like, you dress so weird.

I know you do, and I do. You have two of the same dresses in 42 colors.

That's it.

That's it. It's my Steve Jobs moment.

Okay. Like, you know, I just am a little weird. Like, I do weird things. I have weird hobbies. I don't dress like other people. I never did. You know, I was like, always the girl in school who, like, I had like, the bowl cut and like the plaid vest and all the other girls were wearing. Juicy. Aging myself, you know what I mean? Like, I was listening to like, Simon and Garfunkel while the girls were listening to like, Backstreet, you know, Like, I just like.

Which means now you're cool. Yeah, back then.

And so I think, like, I'm just a little odd. Like, I even do things differently than our friends do, you know? And so I think, like, that's wise because for a long time, like, that was a bad thing. And now I have people who love me for it. Like, when I text you, you're like, what are you doing? And I know that you love me, even though I'm like, let's go do weird activity. Insert weird activity.

That's interesting. So at one point that made you really scared and nervous and it literally turned people off.

Cause I was like, not with the right people. And when you're young, it's hard, you.

Know, like a 14 year old girl. That was a nightmare.

So now if I have a friend that's like, you do what for fun? I'm like, oh, we're not okay. Like, we're not gonna be friends. That's cool. Whereas, like, in a group of friends where they're like, well, good for you for doing that. I'm like, you know.

You know what the other thing is too, is now you doing that, I think has allowed our group of girlfriends to all bring weird things that we used to do.

Everyone's been weirder.

No one would have done that. No, for sure. Now you're actually kind of normal. You're a little basic now.

People have brought out we. It brings out the weirdness in people.

Totally. Yeah. Which is a beautiful thing to think about. Like, if that thing inside of you is so weird different, nobody's on board with it. What sort of magic do you shake out if you share it? Because I bet there's people that are even weirder than you.

Yeah, I'm waiting for you to be weirder.

Yeah, I know. All I do is business. I know. I Need some hobbies. I'm in the market for a hobby.

Yeah, we got to get some hobbies for you. But, like, not like shooting.

I know.

You know what I mean? Like, it's so hardcore. Like something like pottery.

Yeah, I know. You make the worst hobbies. Like, you're like, make a. What was the last wreath one you wanted me to do?

Yeah, Succulent wreath.

Oh, that. That. That Harry Potter thing we went to for four hours.

That was fun. And I brought chocolate frost.

You did not think it was fun.

You're Slytherin.

Yeah, I must be. Although I. I, you know. You are. I score as Gryffindor. No, I think you're a secret Slytherin. No, I'm not.

I'm a Ravenclaw.

Anybody who makes this, I'm a Ravenclaw.

I'm a Ravenclaw.

Was that one of those Flash.

Did I gotta. Yeah, we did go to Harry Potter Symphony Orchestra.

God, we were.

And I did make us dress up.

Although you wouldn't do it on the Internet right now. I did it.

You didn't dress up.

Yes, I did. I don't remember what I wore.

You wore one. You wore, like, a sock. And I was like, okay, it's under a boot. I wasn't gonna cape. Like, I had, like, spell earrings on everyone gifts.

But it's kind of endearing because how many scientists are like, a Harry Potter fan?

I know.

I'm actually a huge Harry Potter fan. I just don't project. Keep it deep inside.

That's why I say we gotta be weirder.

Okay, fine. I'll bring it on the Internet. Tell me if anybody else on here.

Is Harry Potter fans and what your house is.

Oh, yeah. And what your house is.

And that you think you know that, Cody Slytherin.

Okay, you can guess. What do you guys think I am? My Slytherin and my Gryffindor. I think we've actually found the real culprit here. And that's how we'll leave you on this podcast today. Thanks for coming. Be. That's quite a close. I can't believe I shared all of that on the Internet. I guess you guys could tell me in the comments which Harry Potter house you think I am. I have a clear house, so I hope you guys get this right. I think Vanessa was trying to dissuade you from what is the obvious choice. So maybe you can tell me what Harry Potter house you guys are in the comments and you can tell me which one you think I am. The second thing I was thinking about with the clothes here is when it comes to communication, there's some correlation between the better you speak, the more money is in your bank account. And I wish I had understood this earlier. It's actually not my biggest strong suit. I'm pretty good at one to many AKA content. Vanessa talks about how she's really good one to one and I think one of the keys in success in your bank account is how good are you like 1 to 5, 10, 15, 20 and your small teams. And so if you want to learn more about how to communicate well to small teams, let me know in the comments too, because I think we should put together a guide for how do we run meetings so that they don't suck and people actually want to attend to them. How do you communicate with your team even when things are scary and get them to do the things that you want them to do? Vanessa hit on a bunch of it today. I think we should go deeper, so hit me in the comments if you think so too. And in the meantime, I guess I'll end with this. You know, Maya Angelou has the famous saying that people won't remember the things that you said, but they will remember the way you made them feel. And if you remember nothing else, I think this is an opportunity for you to look yourself in the mirror and say, am I making people feel a certain way that they will remember and want to positively associate their next interaction with me? Maybe ask yourself that question. I'm going to do the same. All right, see you guys next time.