Nick Pollard - The Real Cost Of People-Pleasing

Foreign.

Mr. Nick Pollard. How are you doing, buddy?

I'm good, man, thanks for having me.

Good, good. Well, I'm, I'm glad you're doing well and glad to have you here. Had some requests to have you on the show. Checked out a bunch of your work. Loved it. So I think it's going to be a great conversation. Let's just start broadly, which is. Is people pleasing really that bad? Is it that bad?

Is it that bad? Yes.

Right.

I think when you say that bad, I mean, are there, are there things that could be worse? Right. And sure, you know, you could be addicted to heroin. So I think bad is subjective. But when I think through the lifestyle that I led prior to kind of my own self discovery and, and starting to tackle this piece of being a really nice guy and living that kind of pleasing lifestyle, it was filled with a really tremendous resentment and a deep personal existential crisis and sadness. And man, you dove right in. I don't think, I don't think I've ever said it that way.

Something that I've really been working on is, is getting very real with where I'm at emotionally. I've been trying to really understand myself a lot better. And you know, looking back on that period of my life, which was a really long period, this was not a short period of time, you know, 40 years or so of constantly and overwhelmingly giving myself away to everything that wasn't me. I still to this day have that. Those kind of regrets. You know, it cost me a lot of. Hmm.

I've noticed that more and more men. I think this is sort of like over, like the last 10, 20 years, maybe 30 years that men have almost been encouraged to be more of a people pleaser. That there's kind of this push for men to be more docile, less assertive, less direct. So I'm, I'm hoping that maybe you can just contextualize and maybe I'm misreading that. You know, I think there's also this sort of rejection of that and you have the kind of pendulum on the other side of the spectrum of people that are, you know, guys that are just sort of like hostile, don't give a. I'm gonna say whatever the. I want, you know. Sure. And that, that can, that can be, you know, unruly, but maybe just speak a little bit to, and give some context for what creates a people pleaser, like what actually has to happen in life that develops this within a person almost universally.

And I'm gonna, I'm gonna try not to sound entirely Too psychological, because I'm not a clinician. So there's two ways. So in, in our generation, my generation, you know, kind of the tail end of Gen X, what we experienced was the latchkey kid sort of lifestyle, right? So in my world, what had happened was I had an abuse situation when I was a child, and then I had a mom that was present, but also, you know, trying to work and, and, and, you know, go out into the world and, and get a PhD and all those things. And I, you know, I love my mother. She probably won't listen to this one, but she listened to the other ones. She doesn't listen to man casts, I don't suspect. But what that creates is when you have, you have a guy, specifically when you have a boy, and he doesn't have a role model that will teach him about the hard world of the masculine. And the opposite of that, of course, is like, to get my needs met, I need to please the feminine, I need to please women, right? That's what creates kind of a nice guy narrative. Well, the other way you can create that is also is like a dad that's super present, but also has that kind of don't piss off your mother kind of world, right? So there's another way that it can be created. So I don't know that there's like archetypally a way that we, you know, across a through line that we can say, you know, this is what creates a people pleaser. But almost universally it's the presence of, especially in boys, a devouring mother or an. Or an absentee dad. So usually what we see is, or what I've seen in my practice anyways, I've got a dad that was either addicted or a workaholic or otherwise not present. And then we have a mom that made the child their whole world, right? And so what that teaches the kid, of course, is that dad, you know, I can't get dad's validation, so I'm gonna get moms. Because to be validated means that I won't get abandoned. And abandonment to a child is death, right? So it creates this kind of long timeline where you, you learn to either disappear or to be bigger than you are, or, you know, you create all these modalities of living that you transfer then into your adulthood. And where I get in a lot of trouble is when I make the assertion that people pleasing is selfishness disguised as kindness. And that's why it's so. That's why it's so damaging, because you're not giving From a place of generosity, you're giving from a place of your own needs that creates in the world around you transactional relationships. And those transactional relationships then come back to haunt you and you end up saying things. You know, the typical people pleaser burnout is usually pretty much the same. It's like, when's it going to be my turn? Or, you know, how come I'm always giving, nobody ever gives back? Or how come the women I'm with never love me? Or how come I'm never appreciated? And it's like this. And it's all this resentment of, you know, bad guy, past life, and that's how it shows up.

Yeah. It seems like there's a couple things that definitely contribute to it that, that I've noticed in working with men for so long now. One of them, which I think you're speaking to, is I need to take care of you first before you take care of my needs. Right. So I gotta make sure that you're fully taken care of. I gotta prioritize. You prioritize your needs, and then maybe, maybe somewhere down the line you will, you know, you'll be able to read my mind and know what it is that I need and then give it back to me in return. And then the other thing is almost like. Like an externalization of worth and value.

Right.

It's like my worth and my value is contingent on ensuring that you constantly and almost chronically feel taken care of. Would you say that that's relatively fair or what would you add to that or how would you change that?

I think I would add to the first one. And Dr. Robert Glover, who I'm sure has been on this show, I mean, if, if I'm here, he's been here, so definitely.

Yeah, a number of times. Number of times. He's a good friend. He's a good friend of mine.

Yeah. I'm flying down to see him next month. So Dr. Glover calls it a covert contract. Right. And I even take it a little bit of a step further, which is. So his assertion is that if I meet everybody's needs around me, then they too will meet my needs. Right. And that's the contract. I'll get all the sex I want, I get, I get all the money I want, I get. You know, everything will happen for me as long as I make everybody else happy. Right. The way I see it is that's all true, except for the expectation that you will intuit. What I need is where I add that. Right. I should never even have to ask. Yeah. But see, here's where it gets really weird, especially in men is like, we are taught. You asked me this earlier, like, how much of this is societal? Well, we've been taught as men to have no needs, right? Our need to have needs, to have wants or weakness. And I actually, I don't even like the word needs anymore. I don't think. You know, there are really only five or six core human needs. Like, you need food, eat water, you need shelter, you know, probably a fire to cook with. And, you know, and that's kind of it. Those are the core human needs. Right. Everything else is a want. And healthy people ask for what they want. And if you're unable to do that in the grand scope of your life, there's two things that are guaranteed to happen. Number one, you'll never get what you want, ever. Right? You might by accident, but then you. Then you won't believe you got it. And number two, you will develop resentments and then you'll blame everybody else for it. So, yeah, people pleasing is pretty bad.

Yeah, it's kind of funny because it's the. The reason why I asked that question initially is that it. It does seem that more and more people are becoming people pleasers. And then there's also this juxtaposition which that more and more people are almost like completely rejecting that they need anything from anybody and that they're. That their needs are so primary and so important that society and culture should completely alter, change, and bend to meet their needs. Which is almost like this. I've been a people pleaser for so long. Fuck the world. Now the world should cater to me. Or I've been, I've been raised in this sort of like, entitlement, that my needs are superior in some way, shape or form.

Well, we've taught an entire generation of people that their needs are special. And so I think the word need. How do I say this? I think the word need is the highest form of manipulation available in the world right now.

Say more. What do you mean?

So let's say my partner and I are having a discussion about my needs. Well, how do you. How do you say no to somebody's needs? Right. How do you disrupt that flow? So, you know, I work with a lot of men. In fact, my practice does this weird thing where it'll shift from men to women entirely. Like, I'll have all women and then I'll have all men. And I'm thinking probably leaning more toward men at this point just based on what I'm enjoying doing. But. But like, they'll say to me when they get on the phone, like, you know, I need my wife to give me more sex. Oh, you need that? Oh, I didn't realize I was. I was unaware that you would expire if you don't ejaculate. Right? So they have this. We teach people that if I frame everything as a need, then everyone is required to meet it. Right. It's much more powerful in my mind to say to my partner, I want to have more meaningful sex with you. Do you want to do that with me too? Right. It's a bigger ask. It's a much riskier ask. Or to say to, you know, somebody I'm working with, you know, I had. I did a client negotiation this month. He wanted more than I was going to give. And I said, listen, I want to do this with you, but I need you to meet me halfway. Like, there's. I want this, but there's going to have to be a give, right? If you want me to do that, I want to do this too, but there's going to have to be a given. I think. I think more often than not we frame things as a need, especially in the people pleasing community is like, I need more validation, I need more hugs, I need more touching, I need more. I need more and more. The reality is you want that and it's okay to want stuff, and that's. That's a really hard thing for, like, the people pleasers and, you know, to quote Dr. Glover, the nice guy world to understand is. And I hope that somebody's listened to me and hears that. I really do. Like, I've never said it that way. It's really. It's okay to want stuff. It's okay to want sex. It's okay to want to want a new car. It's okay to want to hug your wife more or your husband more. It's. It's okay to. It's okay to want more from your life. And I think we've demonized men in this way in a really big way where we're not allowed to have wants. I'm paying a lot of attention. I try and stay as far away from the manosphere as I can, but I keep getting sucked back in because Chris Williamson is the king of the manosphere right now. If I'm going to.

He's the good version. There's the Tate version, and then there's a Williamson version. I'm underneath the Williamson hierarchy.

He's the fairy godmother right now.

Right. So I think there's you know, there's two devils on my shoulder, of course, like, at all times in my life. And I think Chris Williamson's probably the nice one. He's the angel on the shoulder for me. I think the devil's probably Joe Rogan, but.

Work harder. But.

I think that's the challenge of our generation right now, is that we've taught men that our needs, that our wants more appropriately don't matter. And it's horseshit. My wants are as valid as anybody else's. You know, I wrote a video recently that I've been terrified to produce and put out, but it's about, you know, am I privileged? Sure. I was privileged to be molested as a child. I was privileged to have gone bankrupt when I was 33. I was privileged to be an alcoholic and lose a business. I was privileged to nearly.

When you. What do you mean by that? When you say that you've been privileged to have all those things or to experience or to have to go through all those things, what do you mean by that?

Without him, I couldn't be here talking to you. You know, it's interesting because I don't subscribe to the Freudian idea that our past defines our present. I'd say I'm more in the school of Adler, which is our present defines our past, you know, and what I look back on now is I was an alcoholic as a tool, right. Like, I needed to be a victim. So I used alcohol to make that glaringly apparent. Right. And anger is not an emotion in my vocabulary anymore. It's a tool. It's a tool and we use it for control. And so I guess the. When I think of what does it mean to be a man and a people pleaser, it is to deny yourself everything that is masculine and to pretend that you don't have wants and needs, and it. It absolutely cripples guys.

Yeah. I've said this on a couple of mini episodes on the podcast for the last couple years, that it does seem like what men want relationally has almost become villainized in the modern cultural conversation, you know, and that. That women's wants and needs in a relationship have become so centered, which I understand. Right. It's a kind of. Again, swinging over the pendulum to an end of the spectrum. But what men want and need is almost. Or what men want in a relationship has almost become like, well, you shouldn't want that. You know, that's not something that you should want. And I think a lot of guys struggle with this because a lot of men are trying to Be of service and, you know, that sort of protect, provide mentality that, you know, so many of us hold. There's this notion of like, well, I'll protect, I'll provide, and I'll just cast aside what it is that I actually want and it breaks down the relationship, you know, because you need to have some wants in a relationship, otherwise that's not relational. Right? It breaks down the relationship. And so I'm curious, do, do men and women, you know, because you've worked with both so much, but do men and women, how people pleasing shows up? Is it different? Do they express being a people pleaser differently?

There's some variance, but it's very similar. So if you look at. So I came out of addiction, right? I had a, I had a pretty strong alcoholic tendency and I was addicted to cocaine for a while because those two go together like French fries and ranch, if you don't know that. But that, but the people pleasing timeline and the alcoholic timeline are almost identical. It's fascinating. And I've done so. I noticed, so I really noticed this when I was in rehab. So I went to a rehab center back in 18 because I was just a mess. Oh, shit. I only had to go once. I feel like that's a, that's a win. Most people have to go a couple times, but I was just a mess. And I checked myself in this rehab center and I'd been a coach at that time for about seven years. And so I, I go through their program and I'm like, guys are missing a pretty core component here, which is the core belief systems and fears that are driving this behavior. So I, I end up becoming the coach of the rehab center. Well, so I started to chart how many people that were in active addiction that showed up that called themselves empath. And it was like 100%. It was ridiculous, right? And so I'm looking at this chart like, I mean, it's like it's literally 100% of these people. And, you know, there's been amazing research since I went to rehab. You know, Gavin Wate has done a lot with that. You know, I disagree with him on a lot. But, you know, addiction is very often a genetic issue triggered by trauma. And so you're dealing with a lot of people with a lot of trauma, and that's how it all kind of shows up. Well, it wasn't until three years later, in 2021, when I was, you know, detoxing myself again in an airbnb in Huntington beach, having fallen off the wagon after a breakup That I started to put the pieces together. I'm like, jesus, it's just people pleasing. There's no such thing as an empath. It's just a people pleaser under a different name.

And so I had this kind of moment where I'm like, well, that's weird. And then I started to look at the differences, right, between men and women. So men tend to. Men's addiction to stuff is different. So men tend to get addicted to things like going to the bar or video games or porn, right? So they tend to get addicted to that. And in my highly successful people pleaser set, you know, you see the workaholic, the universe working with a great doctor right now. And he was telling me he was doing something like 40 surgeries a month. Like, bro, that's too many. He's like, yeah, I know, I'm exhausted. I'm like, well, it stop. So, but so, so that's how men tend to do it. Women tend to get addicted as a people pleaser, as a, as a good girl to some interesting but also very insidious behaviors. They get addicted to people, right? So they get addicted to chaotic relationships. They get addicted to sex more often than men. And I mean, physically sex. Men tend to get more porn addicted and they usually act out sexually in marriages. So they tend to. They tend to have fidelity problems. The nice guy tends to have a fidelity problem. Not all, but, but a good chunk. And so you have that. And then. But women tend to get addicted to sexual behavior because it's validating. And they tend to get addicted to toxic relationships and toxic friendships. So the addictions. And interestingly enough, if you look at all addiction timeline, they all play out the same. If you look at the workaholic against a cokehead, the cokehead's timeline is shorter, but it all ends the same way. But you know, workaholic workaholism is vindicated in the world. And I think that's another problem in the world of men is like workaholism is, is idealized, right? Meanwhile, like porn addiction and alcoholism and, you know, drug addiction and sex addiction, these are vilified. But, you know, if you work yourself to death, that's good for you. So I think that answers your question.

To answer your question, yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I had like a thought of like the addiction to celebrities, you know, as you were talking of, like, women get addicted to, like, people and those types of things. It was like, yeah, that, that's always been a fascinating thing for me. Like the people that get addicted and obsessed with Celebrities. I'm like, what's happening there?

Sure.

Like what, what's going on? But there's kind of an idea, you know, idolization. What's, you know, we've been inadvertently addressing this, but I'm going to ask it directly anyways, which is what's the price or the sort of cost that a people pleaser is actually paying? Like, what's the impact on that person? And then the people around them, There's.

A physical toll that I think goes unnoticed. So, you know, if you can't prioritize yourself, you can't prioritize. You can't prioritize your health. So, you know, the, the types of food you eat. And you know, when I was in my, my most recent ex, I'm in a great relationship now, but you know, my ex most recently looked back, was like, I ate a lot of Wendy's. Like, I like, there's a good amount of Wendy's eaten because I would spend all my time with her and then I'd drive home and I'd be starving and I wouldn't want to, you know, disrupt what we were doing or whatever. So I would just get a Wendy's and go home. Meanwhile, I'm getting fatter and fatter and I can't figure out why. So there's a physical toll that comes, you know, just purely by lack of exercise and self prioritization. It's not rocket science just what happens. So you have that and then the emotional toll is, is crippling. I literally have seen it manifest in people. I hate that word like manifest. I manifested it. By manifest, I mean it showed up. It's not magic, but I've seen people that show up with like autoimmune disorders and rosacea and, you know, kind of these skin disorders. And, and when you start to prioritize yourself and you start to get, when you start to unplug that hardware of shame, that's really where this is all rooted, by the way. This is why addiction and people pleasing are on the same timeline because it's all shame based. But when you unplug that shame and you plug in, you know, masculinity or femininity or whatever it is that you need to plug into that, into that part of the hard drive, what you start to see is your body heals, right? And you start to prioritize yourself like, oh, wow, you know, if I don't eat like garbage, maybe I, you know, maybe I won't break out in hives. And you know, maybe if I go to the gym a couple times a week. My knees won't hurt. And then. And what you see is so almost universally with this set of people is the first thing we have to work on is fitness. We have to work on. On healthy habits. So, you know, I end up being a weight loss coach for about three weeks at every engagement. Start eating well, you know, maybe take care of yourself. Stop drinking, you know, two hours before you go to bed. If you're going to drink, just don't do it two hours before you go to bed. You know, I love a glass of tequila from time to time, whatever. So.

But yeah, I think you were trying to say eczema before.

Yeah, eczema, that's what I was looking for. Eczema. That's echinacea. Jesus. Yeah. Hey, you got echinacea. That's.

You've got echinacea all over your skin.

That's good. That sounds like you took a tea bath.

That's a different disorder. You know.

Proud of me? Proud of me?

Yeah. I mean, it's. It's interesting because I think part of this, you know, underneath for. I think for a lot of people pleasers, underneath, there's a sort of a very deep current of lacking self worth and.

Yeah.

And a real interruption, I guess you could say, of a. Of the development of, like, rooted self esteem. And I'm wondering if you can speak to that.

This is weird because I grew up. I grew up in the 80s and 90s, right. So I don't know how old you are. What are you, 35?

40? 41.

41. Okay. So I, I was born in 1980, which means I'm the. I am the dead center, last of the. Of the Gen Xers in the world, and all my brothers and sisters were Gen X. So I was basically raised feral. But during that time frame, like the 80s and 90s were all about self esteem, right? And I remember. Forget the guy's name, but he was the superintendent of my school district and he was my best friend or my brother's best friend's dad. And he wrote a book called Me, Myself and I. And he came and he presented it and he was very proud of it. And like me, myself and I. And that's what we. That's what we did, you know, we. We learned how to like ourselves or. Or how to have self esteem. Right? Self esteem on its own is horseshit, right? I can sit here and shout affirmations at myself in the mirror all day long and it's not gonna. It's not Gonna do much good, right? So I think what we see more than a lack of self esteem is a lack of defined and honest self image. So it's not so much that they don't like who they are, it's that they have never really defined who they are. So they don't get a chance to get to know that person. And like, you can't like and know somebody. You can't know somebody and like them without knowing. Like you can't just. You seem like a cool guy. I like you so far. But you know, you could be a jerk. I don't know. But if you don't know you, then you can't like you. Right. And if you spend your whole life trying to make everyone else around you happy, then you never get to know you. Right. I have interests that I didn't even know I had. Like, I love to tango. I didn't know that, but I had to go out and experience stuff. You know, I, I read the book the Four Hour Workweek 20 years ago and Tim Ferriss was like, I became a tango champion. And I would, I was 20, 21, late 20, 21, early 22. And I was like, I'm going to go to Argentina for three months. And I did, man, and I'll tell you, it was great. Like, I learned to tango. That year of, of my life that really turned around was 21 to 23 and those two years. And I mean I learned to tango, I learned to surf, I, I learned to make empanadas and I learned about grape wine and I learned what it means to hug somebody that, that you don't know and mean it. And I don't think I would have been able to be the person I am today if I hadn't decided to just get to know me, you know, like, it wasn't even about liking me. I didn't know if I was gonna like what I found. And I realized of course that, you know, if I don't like what I find, I can change it. But like, getting to know me was actually probably more important than learning to like.

Yeah. I think oftentimes the diminishment of self worth has come because of abuse.

Right.

It's like this being verbally abused, hearing, you know, feeling like a failure, et cetera. And it, and it leads to this image that who I am is bad or wrong or a fuck up or whatever it is. And so the, the perspective is who I know myself to be is negative, is bad, needs, you know, chronic fixing is a piece of garbage. You Know that we could just go, keep going. But I think that's one of the big challenges. And so, yeah, I think it's sort of like a double edged sword where on one hand we do need to go and look at what caused that erosion of a sense of worth. Then who are you outside of that perspective that there's something wrong with you? And so, yeah, I mean, I do think that that because one of the things that I've seen for a lot of people that are people pleasers, as you're saying, is that there's a connection between people pleasing and addiction. And oftentimes there's some developmental interruption that's happened in their life that stifled their ability to feel like I matter. You know, I have worth, I have value in the world. Other people give a shit about me. That is completely skewed in a lot of people that really struggle with people pleasing. So maybe give some context for what are some of the ways that people can start to step outside of this. If somebody's listening to this, they really struggle with it. They're like, yep, everything you're describing is me to a T. Where does somebody actually start with any of this? Because it can often feel overwhelming.

Well, your audience, I, I assume is decidedly male. There's a lot of ways to do it, there's a lot of hard ways to do it, and there's a lot of, you know, less hard ways to do it. The first thing I would, I would do is I would identify the top five women in your life that you give the most to. And this is going to give me a deep shit one of these days. I'm like, I keep saying stuff like this. I know I'm going to get shot in the face by a feminist. But universally, across every one of my channels, across all of my coaching, the number one problem men have is women. Number one problem, and where I think I differ is that I don't blame women because I'll take what I'm given too. Right. So I think that one of the things that you can really do to start to solve for how do I become less? And it's not about agreeableness, by the way. There is a massive difference between being agreeable and being a people pleaser. But I think the, I think the difference between or changing from this kind of pleasing, nice guy behavior is identify the top five women that you give the most to in life and then ask yourself what would happen if you said no half the time? And that's gonna scare the outta you. So that's Step one. Step two is to say no to everything for the week. Everything. Do you wanna go have coffee? No. Can you help me move? No. Do you wanna buy me a drink? No. Right. And this includes your own mother, by the way. You know, my mom loves my work. She thinks I'm hilarious. She loves what I do. She thinks I'm very insightful, but she's my mom, so I know she's biased, but I'm also probably a little insightful or I wouldn't keep doing things like this. But I did this with her years ago, where I was like, mom, I. You know, I'll tell you right now, you can tell everybody you're doing this. You tell everybody I'm playing this game. Like, I'm going to say no to you for everything for the next week. And then, you know, reserve the right, of course, to change your mind if you. If you want to. Like, if you want to change your mind in 90 seconds, do that, but wait 90 seconds and really start to see who kind of sticks around. And you do this with your guy friends, you do this with your girlfriends, you do this with the people that you care about. And that's usually a really good start because it gives you some insight as to how much your no actually means, which is usually not much, and how much your yes means, which is almost universally not much. And then you realize one bigger kind of more profound thing, which is a no is a lot easier to come back from than he is. Like, a lot. So I had said, hey, bro, I'll come on your podcast. And then, like, an hour before you and I were supposed to get on this thing, I was gonna. I text you. I'm like, you know, bro, I can't really do that. You'd be like, guys, guy's a dick. How do you get on? Williamson show. What the. Right? And that would be kind of your. Your response to me. And then if I was to say, no, really, I can't do it. And then you called me out of the blue. You're like, I really need a guest this week. And I was like, all right, yeah, let's do it. Well, I am a hero, right? So I think getting past the idea that you're afraid to say no is really important, especially when you're somebody that likes to please the feminine. You know, Glover equates that to, you know, trying to fill a bucket with a hole in it. And that's true. You know, I don't want to say that women are inherently unhappy creatures, but they have 60% more negative thoughts than men. That's proven scientifically. And you're dealing with a creature that has two main motives of operation, which is they're high in intuition and high in predation detection. So when your whole life is built around intuiting predators, things don't feel good all the time. Right. And the word no will actually get you laid more often than it.

Okay, say more about that.

Women don't actually want you to give them everything they want.

That's probably going to get you into trouble. More than the other part.

Probably.

That's probably going to get you into more trouble. What do you mean we don't want.

What do you mean we? You know, so I'll give you an example of this. Like, okay, so I saw a great reel on this the other day. It was like, women cannot be happy. The guy says, okay, well, how do you figure? He says, well, women with a straight hair want curly hair. They buy curlers. Women with blonde hair want dark hair. Women with big boobs want small boobs. Small boobs want big boobs. They're just not happy humans. I don't know if that's all true. It's just kind of a funny way that he said it. But being able to be rooted in yourself enough to say no when it's necessary provides safety. And safety is what makes you sexually attractive, period. Nobody wants to forgive the. Forgive the language, but nobody wants to a guy that's placative and are you okay? Everything. I'm sorry. Like you really want to sleep with that guy. No, they who you know, look at the books that are out. This is not rocket science. 50 Shades was the number one selling book of its genre of all time. Right? All three of them. And they were terrible. I read every one of them. And you know, one of the exercises I do with my guys that I think is really funny is I tell them, especially if they're married, you go home, tell your wife to sit on the couch, pour her glass of wine, tell her to put her feet up, rub her feet. Say you're going to tell me about your day for 15 minutes. Try it. Go home and just tell her what to do. Sit on the couch. Here's a glass of wine. I'm going to rub your feet. Tell me about your day for 15 minutes. Watch what happens. Next thing you know, you're snuggling on the couch. Next thing you know, you're in bed. Why? Because you created a feeling of safety. No means I can't do that. Doesn't mean I won't it doesn't mean ever. It means right now I can't. And I have to hold that line because it's not good for you and it's not good for the family. So, you know, when I first, um. When I first moved back to the States, of course I'm looking at mattresses because I've been on the road forever, and the girl I was with was like, can we buy this? Like, it was absurd. I think it was, like, 10 grand. I'm, like, not buying a $10,000. The answer's no. Well, why not? Because we still don't. We're not there. Right. That's not where we are. And you need to understand that we are not there. I'll get us there, but it's not today. So the answer is no. And she was mad and she was grumpy and she wanted it and all those things. And guess what? I still got laid that night. Why? Because I held my masculine frame enough to sit down. Right. So that's the answer to the question.

Yeah, I think there's something about the way I've framed this sometimes is like being a bit untamed and keeping a part of you that is just not tamable with a woman or with the feminine. And there's something about that that is. That helps to create the polarity. Because I think for. Because a lot of women's drives are so geared towards safety for, you know, all the reasons that we could talk about. There is this drive to make you as a man more tamed, like, more tame that she kind of like. And I've heard this in so many relationships, like, oh, I know you, and I know you so well, and I know all this, like. And that's always the moment I'm like, no, you don't. There's parts of me that you don't know, and there's parts of me that you wouldn't like, and there's parts of me that you're not going to have control over. And that creates this kind of, like, excitement, because there's something in there of like, well, once I have complete control over you, then I don't feel safe. If I can control every outcome that you know, every yes or every no that you are going to say, then I don't feel safe. And I think for a lot of men, that's confusing because I think for a lot of guys to get in a relationship and it's like, oh, you just want me to be fully accessible and sort of like this tame, docile human being, and super predictable. And then intimacy fades away, Resentment starts to build. Disconnection starts to happen. The guy's like, what's going on? Like, I'm. I'm everything that you've said that you want me to be. I'm super tame, very docile. I'm hyper agreeable. I say yes to everything that you want to do. But, like, why is the relationship. And you never say no. Yes.

So because. And I'm going to say again, like, women don't know what they want, and they think safety comes from a tame, docile creature, and safety does not. That's a. That's a safe creature. That's a house cat. Right? But I've seen my cats when it thunders. Do you really want that guy, like, protecting you against the dude with the sickle coming through your window? No. That's not what you need, Right? It's like the number one complaint I hear about marriages. It's like, well, I don't have enough sex. Okay, well, how are you showing up? Right? Like, it's universally. It's a. And here's the problem. And women may love this statement, it's our fault. Ultimately, the responsibility falls on men. Sorry, guys, but ultimately, if we're not having enough sex, it's our fault. Ultimately, if the relationship isn't what we want it to be, it's our fault. Accountability and responsibility are the way of the masculine. That is the. That is the frame that we operate in. And James Sexton talks about this. You know, the economy of, you know, marriage is, you know, women provide softness and love and caring and cookies and sex, and men provide money, and they bring home the bacon, and they're the warriors and protectors. Right? That's. And that's the economy of it, you know, to be around long after I'm dead. But if you're not getting the things that you. That I just mentioned, if you're not getting the cookies and sex, there's a reason, and that reason is that you are not showing up. And we live in a world, you know, too, that encourages women to be more masculine and men to be more feminine. So everything's kind of got their wires crossed. But the reality is, you know, so a really funny experience with my girlfriend last night. He was making dinner for my son and I, and she's in culinary school right now, which is really cool, and she's having a really fun time. But the culinary world, by its design, is paramilitary. So, like, if you look at a kitchen, it's a hierarchy, right? So she's in A very masculine frame all day long. And she's making this salmon, and I hear her go, I need plating. And I went, new. And she goes, what? I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That's not how we're doing this. Like, you can do that shit at work, but we don't talk to me like that. And she goes, I'm really sorry. Like, yeah, fine, but, like, I'm not going to say yes, chef to you. Just so we're on the same page, right? And we talked about it later. I didn't do it in the moment in front of my son. But, like, I told her about it later. She was like, are you okay? And I was pissed. Like, I was in. I was seething.

I.

And this is another thing I've learned just through being in this field and listening to Jordan Peterson guys like you, it's like, you got to have the thousand fights. And I'm laying in bed, I'm just seated. I can't believe. Say that to me, right? And she goes, are you okay? And I'm like, yeah, I'm fine. And the people pleaser in my brain popped out. Like, yeah, I'm fine. And I went, no, wait, I'm not. Don't ever talk to me like that in the kitchen again. Like, I am not a sous chef. I am not a line cook. That's not how we're doing things. Like, I love you, and I appreciate that you were just kind of in the zone, but you turn that off when you get home. And she goes, okay, I'm really sorry. And I'm like, we good? She's like, yeah, we're good. Like, okay, now let's go to bed, and we'll wake up and we'll have some sex. Because I'm angry at you right now. She's like, okay, fine. So the point I make is that that was not a pleasing conversation. But it was a. But method, you know, from a method. Methyl. Methodological point. Is that a thing? Yeah. Anyway, the methodology behind it is, I know that to be attractive means to be displeasing. I know that to be connected means to say the things that you don't want to hear sometimes. And the same is true for her, right? So if you're a guy in your relationships or you're. Or you're struggling to attract women, this is a really great one. If you're struggling to attract women, stop being so fun nice. Like, you know, what if somebody walks up to you and they're a. Just say, hey, you really don't need to talk to people like that and hold people accountable to what they are, men and women. Right. And you know, I was a. I guess I was a disciple of Neil Strauss for a while back in the. Back in the early 2000s. And I've met Neil a half dozen times or so. It's a really nice guy.

The reformed pickup artist. That should be his next book.

It really should be.

The reformation of. The reformation of the pickup artist.

Yeah, the pickup reform.

Yeah.

And you know, he talks about that a little bit, is. They called it shit testing in the. In the PUA world. And I read the book, I read it every now and then. The way of the superior man, time to time. By the way, that. That's a really great book until about halfway through when he gets really wonky and he starts talking about pushing his belly into the universe or whatever the fuck. Relax. But the, the thing I really love about that book is that it does speak to this. Like, you have to be willing to. To hurt people's feelings to be a real person. Yeah.

You have to be willing to disappoint other people in order to have some connection to yourself.

Right.

And, you know, that was gonna be my next question, which is, where does rejection fit into all of this? And like, what has happened to men that there's this kind of crippling of so many men's willingness to just be rejected?

So I think there's two things, and I hate that I'm going to say it, but I'm going to say it anyway because I feel like it's kind of the scapegoat right now. Social media, I do think it, but I do think it plays a large role. We live in an online world. Almost everything you do is in text. So a failure is not just a failure anymore. Right. It can be the end of a reputation. If you do this wrong in many regard and you see this in, you know, the women filming themselves at the gym and then shaming the guy who looks at them and like, okay, well, maybe don't wear your know, a pink thong and people won't look at you. I wasn't the only one. Like, I've watched women looking at women going, what the is going on here? You know, So I think in many ways what, what we see is the fear is compounded by another outside separate experience. So if I hit on a girl incorrectly, let's say I, you know, I'm a. Let's pretend I hit on girls still. 45. That's not really my game. But let's pretend for a minute that I was going to do that or I was going to instruct my son how to do that. That. And he goes and he does that. And they happen to be recording at the time. And his first approach is goofy and weird and kind of creepy because that's how it's supposed to be when you're 18. And until you kind of learn to formulate a bit of a talking personality, you're not gonna have much luck in that regard. Right. And it ends up online. And then he's shamed by all of his friends, and all the girls in his high school don't think he's cute anymore. And, you know, all that happens. Well, that's not fair. Right? And then, you know, there's also been a real narrative, and it's, I think fourth or fifth or sixth wave or final wave feminism has really done in our boys. I was talking to my son, one of my. My youngest son, he was saying, you know, I don't really want to date when I. When I get older. And I'm like, why? He's like, I. I'm one misstep away at all times from being accused of something I didn't do. So it's a very high risk activity these days. And then, you know, we've also created an entire generation of young men that are adversity phobic. You know, everything is trauma. And that again, I mean, everything is trauma. Give me a break. Like, most of these kids wouldn't know hard if it jumped up and punched him in the face. So I. I think there's. I think that's a big part of it is that, you know, we're anaphylactically allergic to discomfort.

Yeah, there is. There is. I've noticed that. I think the helicopter parenting style of really not allowing especially, I mean, just not allowing kids to take risks, I think has had a really damaging impact on young boys. And, you know, I've worked with a lot of young men, and I have parents reach out all the time asking me, like, how to support the development of a boy into a man. And I'm like, you have to let him take more risks than you are comfortable with. Oh, yeah. And you have to encourage him because a lot of these young boys are so sheltered that there's this real phobia of rejection. And like, you're saying rejection. Back in our day, like, if I approached a woman at a bar when I was 18 or 19, it wasn't going to go online. You know, she wasn't going to go tweet about it and pop outside.

I light up a cigarette, have a laugh with my friends, and I go on to the next thing.

But I think, like, you know, we used to, my buddies and I, this is a kind of a funny story. I don't think I've ever told this before, but my buddies and I used to go to the bar and we would take, like, the worst pickup lines humanly possible, the most, like, ridiculous pickup lines. And the challenge was like, can you meet a woman and actually get her phone number using, like, the stupidest pickup line? And, you know, by doing this, it's kind of like you are testing yourself towards rejection. You're building a little bit more of, like, a thick skin and you are, you know, you're kind of putting yourself out in these situations where it's silly and you have to kind of be thoughtful and, you know, charismatic. But, you know, I think back and it's like, it wasn't really about the success of talking to a woman. It was just more about getting over the fear of the rejection and, you know, the embarrassment and everything that comes along with that. And I think we've. We've raised young boys in a way to coddle them away from any type of embarrassment, any type of risk, any type of rejection, and it's really damaging.

And.

And for a lot of women, they're now inundated with men who don't know how to take smart risks, don't want to be rejected by them, don't know how to say no. And then they're not happy either. And then the woman's just like, well, you should know how to take some good, healthy risks. You know, you should be able to tell me no sometimes instead of saying yes to something that you don't want to do and then having resentment towards me for the next week.

Where do you think the part of women, because this is something I despise about the manosphere, is the blaming of women for everything. You know, read one good men's book and you'll realize, like, a good one. Not, you know, don't read the dates, but read one good men book or men's book, and you'll realize pretty quickly that this is really all on us. But there is a role for the modern woman in this way. So the girl I'm with is. Is 15 years my junior. You know, I managed to land at the very end of the millennial set and, you know, almost into Gen Z. And she's not one of these. So it so I'm curious, what do you think the part of. What part do women play, even if it's small, in the creation of this sort of subset of men that are just terrified of them?

Well, I would say probably. I think moms contribute to this, you know, inadvertently. And coming from a good place, I think a lot of moms want to protect their sons. And. And so there's an over coddling of them and not understanding that in order to be a solid, healthy, robust man, you almost need to go through a period of taking risks that I think to most mothers seem a bit insane.

Sure.

You know.

Yeah. Yeah, you're right. So it's that initiation, right? It's the correct. The. It's the father taking the son into the. Into the woods for the initiation into the hard world of the masculine.

Yeah.

There's a tribe that still does this. I want to say it's in either New guinea or in sub Saharan Africa. So right as the boy turns 13, all the tribesmen are out in the field doing their thing, and they kind of. They plan these things ahead of time. And the tribesmen all come in and they kidnap the boy, right? And then they take him out in the field, and the mother's weeping and she's wailing, and then she throws herself on the ground and she has this whole performance, right? And then at the end, you know, this poor boy thinks he's being stolen from his mother and he's crying, and then they take him out of the woods, they teach him how to hunt. They do all the shit. But at the end, the moms all get together, they laugh about it, and they, like, rate their performances and drink beer, right? Because they realize how important it is to create strong men. And the only way to create strong men is through strong men, right? So I'm just fascinated by that idea. I do think women have a role to play. I think. I think you're right, though. I think it's more the raising than, you know, the modern woman, so to speak. It was weird to me that I recently got an email from a friend of mine who said, what is a trad wife? And I went, I don't.

Traditional. The traditional wife. Yeah.

And I'm like, I don't have an answer to that. He says, put it into pornhub. And it's just a girl just cleaning a house. And I'm like, this is a kink now.

Like, interesting.

The trad wife kink. Interesting. So we've gone so far away from. From the feminist that we're like. Like Men are so repulsed by the ultra, you know, female feminist movement that now we've, you know, kinkified, for lack of a better word, you know, cleaning the house.

Yeah, I mean, I, I, I had this whole thing that I called the cuttlefish effect. And it's, you know, a male cuttlefish will fight for the sort of, like, rights to mate with a female. But there's this very interesting thing that happens that the smaller male cuttlefish, because he can't actually fight and win a battle, will let the larger males win, and then he will change his shape and his color to mimic that of a female. And, and so he'll look like a female, and he'll go and sort of like, snuggle up with this, with the male that won the fight and won the male to mate, won the female to mate with, and then he'll sneak in and mate with the female underneath the male's nose. That one, really.

Right.

And so it's sort of this, like, adaptive strategy of pretending to be more feminine and pretending to be more female in most way, shape or form to then get the possibility to mate. And I think that some of that is being incentivized within our culture, you know, and I think that a lot of men are just so confused about what it means to be a man because there's such extreme polarities telling them, come over to this side and sort of renounce anything that's masculine in any way, shape or form. And that'll mean that you're a good man. And then there's sort of the opposing force that's saying the opposite of that. And so I think for a lot of guys, it's just very confusing about where to stand in today's world. And I think that some of the modern dating conversation that's out there does not help. I do see some women sort of, you know, overemphasizing this narrative that men need to be super nice all the time. And yes, kindness is important. It is important. When you look at the data, women do want men that are kind. They also want men that can acquire status and that have financial acquisition. And on average, regardless of how much a woman makes, she still wants a man that earns as much of her as her, if not more. And, and so, you know, I think we're, we're, we're not really doing a good job of creating a society where those types of men are there. But I want to come back onto the people pleasing because I feel like we're like, venturing off into the dating world, which is great and I love that. But I wanted to come back and just sort of talk about, you know, for the guys that consider themselves or just for the people that consider themselves to be very introverted or more, more sensitive. How do you deal with things like setting boundaries, being, being more assertive, being more direct, when that might feel counter to your natural state or your natural quote, unquote identity.

Introversion, extroversion is an extremely dated model of being first. Every person wants connection, whether you're an introvert or not. So I think I want to first define that. Introversion is not reclusion and you need to be very clear about that. Right. So being reclusive is not introversion. That's avoidance. Right. So there's that. How do you. So your question was, how do you avoid the discomfort?

Well, how do you deal, how do you deal with the natural.

Because of the natural way of being.

Yeah, like part of what you. I think part of what I've seen you talk about is to get out of the people pleasing tendencies. You need to be able to say no. You need be able to set boundaries. You know, you need to be able to be a little bit more direct and assertive. And I think for people that are more on the people pleasing spectrum, some, for some people, I can hear guys like, listen to this. It's like, well, I'm more naturally just an introvert, you know, and I'm. Or I'm more sort of like sensitive. So how do I deal with that?

Fucking get over it. Like, I'm sorry, I really, I want to have a more philosophical answer than that. I really do. Like, I really want to be like, well, Alfred Adler was there, you know, in terms of Jungian psychology, I'd love to be able to say something like that to you and really give you some like meaty, you know, soundbite on this. But you're being sensitive doesn't excuse you from living up to your potential. You're a man. You not liking to go out as often as other people doesn't excuse you from the social contract. Being a part of a community. Sorry. And you know, so many guys, like, I've worked with a couple of younger guys. Most, most of them can't, you know, historically afford me, but there's a few that can. And when I talk to them, they're like, well, how do I get out there and date? I'm like, wow, this is. Okay, so first step, hard step, shower and then leave your fucking house. I don't. I'm going to Emote for a second. I spent a lifetime getting tortured. Like, I should be afraid of everything. Everything. Whether it be women, whether it be men, whether it be life. Like, I use the word molestation from childhood, but that's not what it was. There's a word we don't get to say as men that I, I can say physically and accurately. And I think, I think this question actually pisses me off because it's like, who are you to like, just decide that you don't have to participate? You know, who do you think you are? You know, and then you're going to complain because you don't have a girlfriend or you don't have any friends or you don't have any connection, like, because that's what happens. You know this as well as I do. They show up in a coaching forum and they go, I don't know how to meet people. And I go, okay, well, go out and meet people. Well, that's scary.

Well, yeah, it's almost like, are you willing to face the fear of getting what you want versus living in the loneliness and the isolation of what you don't want?

Sure. It's like, you know, I think it was in the 90s, I think it was a movie. It was called so fucking what? Like SFU or sfw. That's what it was. So fucking what I think was Ethan Hawke was in that movie. But give yourself permission to be irreverent, for God's sake. Like, stop caring so much about like people that you're gonna encounter once in your existence. You know, I can go right now as a 45 year old man and hit on any, any woman in any bar in America and I'm going to be perfectly fine with it. Why? Because I've done it a thousand times, right? And sometimes I'll be successful and sometimes I won't, but I'm okay with that, right? And Scott Galloway, who I love and I hope, if he's ever listening to this, I hope to go on his podcast someday. But like, if you are going to punch above your weight class, you better get really comfortable with injection. And there's just like, there's just no excuse for me. I, I, I hate to be that brutal, but it's like, grow up, man. You know?

Yeah, I think, I think that, I think the challenge is that a lot of those men are so crippled by fear and shame and that becomes a kind of like a debilitation. And I think, you know, I think culturally we have centered therapy speak as this sort of like supreme being within our culture.

Right. Everybody that disagrees with you is a narcissist.

Yeah, that, yeah, that kind of stuff. Right. And I think it's, you know, I, I, I do have a good amount of empathy for those types of guys because I think there's this kind of paranoia and like really lacking a sense of any type of safety within themselves. But that's exactly what they have to confront in order to move out of the behavior and sure, and I appreciate what you're saying because I think in a way sometimes that tough love is what they need to hear that they just didn't get. You know, like coming back to what we were talking about before, which is like, you know, if that man has grown up in an environment where he's just never been encouraged to take meaningful risk, like any type of small risk seems like this existential, you know, anxiety inducing thing, which is a very real thing for a lot of men. And I'm curious if you can maybe just speak a little bit more to like, what are some of the things that, that people are going to have to face? When you begin to put yourself first, when you begin to step out of this people pleasing mentality and behavior set, what are you going to have to be, have to face? We're going to be confronted by the.

Hardest one is probably not what you think. I think most people are afraid everybody's going to run away from them. And that's a pretty common misconception. The hardest thing you're going to face is how much people don't care. Like the hardest confrontation that you're going to come up against is how little this matters. And the reason that's hard is because you will have invested a good chunk of your life in it. So I talked to, you know, when I work with, and I do get, I get a chance to work with some amazing men, you know, CEOs and doctors all over the world. And I've just had this incredible last four years has been wild. You know, the people that count on me for expertise. And I think in that set there's very often like a sunk cost fallacy. Like well, you know, got me this far, maybe I should double down on that. So the next hardest thing you're going to realize, so the first thing is you're going to realize how little this matters and how little people give a shit about you and your actions. That's going to suck. The second thing is going to be how much it's cost you. And then the pivot happens. So that's usually the Progression. It's like first you realize how a little it matters, then you realize how much cost you. The pivot usually happens in kind of the third area, which is when you start asking, what has this been protecting me from? And universally it's going to be everything you want universally. So it'll be. It's protected me from starting a business and failing, right? Taking the risk I always wanted to take. Or it's protected me from being the top sales guy I've only been number five. Right. Or protected me from starting that podcast that I dreamed about. I could have had it for the last 10 years. Maybe I just didn't do it in my world. It protected me from making content. That's no joke, man. Like my first six months as a coach, you know, back. So I've been a coach for 15 years, but you know, when I started again in 21, it took me six months to get out there and make content. And by the way, if you ever want to have a really funny time, rewind to the very beginning of my content. It's ridiculous. And so that's, that's the, that's usually the pivot points. Like when you ask yourself, like, what has this protected me from? And you're going to realize that this protected you from everything you've ever wanted. From the beautiful woman you wanted to date, from the big blue eyed girl you thought was cute, from the business you wanted to start that you knew was a million dollar idea, right? From everything as silly as taking your friend to Panama for a bachelor party or everything that you've ever wanted this thing has protected you from getting. And so which kind of leads you to the fourth point, which is if I stop living by my default, what is the next step? Like, what has to happen now, right? It's a really painful question that's actually ringing true for me today, actually in many ways. You know, I put off a lot of things in my business in the last couple years because I was afraid. And, and I, and you know, I come on these shows and I, I try not to. Well, you know, that's a lie. I don't try not. I don't try to do anything. I just try to be real. And you'll ask yourself this question every day for the rest of your life if you do it right. And something that came up for me recently is I really wanted to teach publicly. I wanted to be in a, on a stage. It's what I've always wanted. I've wanted that since I saw Zig Ziglar. Since he became my mentor 20 years ago, like he was a friend. And I had to ask myself some really hard questions in the last couple of weeks. Am I going to just, am I going to do this? Like, am I going to do this or am I going to burn out again? Am I going to chase the thing that I really want? Or am I going to burn out again? Because the thing I really want is to speak. Is to speak. I want to teach bigger. I want to want to connect more humans, you know. And I realized that, you know, this people pleasing tendency still rears its ugly head. It's the cross you bear for the. It's like everybody has a thing, you know, Some people, some people are assholes and they have to deal with that their whole lives. Some people are people pleasers and they have to, you know, they have to kind of circumvent that and find workarounds and work with it in many ways and it can be really beneficial. By the way, like I can read emotions, I can read context. I can, I can sell better than anybody can sell. Like I am incredible and. But I think when you really ask yourself what's now, like what I have to do now, you're going to get scared. And that's going to bring you to the fifth part where you realize that you were never supposed to be unafraid. You will be scared until they call you brave. And they will only call you brave when it's over. Love that.

I feel like that's probably a good place for us to pause our conversation today. So much good, good stuff in this conversation, I think. Well, first, before I even go on, I would just encourage you to man it forward. If you're listening to this man, forward the conversation and share it with somebody that you know, needs to hear it. I'm sure that many people listening to this know a couple people pleasers in their life. People that struggle with just advocating for what they want. Nick, where can people find you and follow along with your work?

Easiest place to find me is let's point them to YouTube these days. I think that's more fun for me. The people displeaser at. On YouTube or Instagram or TikTok or Facebook, whatever medium you like. I'm the people displeaser on all of them or the people displeaser.com I don't know if I mentioned, but I'm. I'm writing a book and I actually have a deal, so that's pretty cool. So 2027 you can be looking for my book which will be published by. Thank you to Penguin Random House.

Awesome, buddy. Well, thank you so much for tuning in. Thanks, everybody that was listening to this episode and until next week, signing off.

Thanks for having me.