Redefining Leadership with Pamela McElvane

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What's up, my good people? Welcome to the CJ Moneyway Show in association with Believe Network, the podcast that brings you stories behind success. Today we had the pleasure of speaking with Pamela McIlvaine, the author of "The Skinny on Diversity Recruiting" and CEO of Diversity MBA. How you doing today, Pam?

Oh, I'm great, and thank you for having me. What a wonderful time it is.

Uh, thank you for taking the time out today to coming on, joining us today. So Pam, let's kick things off like this. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and about your background?

Absolutely. You know, I tell folks I'm just, you know, I'm a girl from the around the way rural, uh, Stockton, California. Grew up in the San Joaquin Asparagus Valley. I stayed there for most of my career. I went to Berkeley, University of California at Berkeley, a little time at Davis, graduated there from their business program and a few other degrees. And as I entered into corporate America, I actually spent an illustrious career, about 20 years, in insurance industry and lived around the country because of that. And then after living in every region of the country, traveled about 20 of this country and traveled about 20 companies globally, I had an opportunity to think about starting a business. So 1999, I'm celebrating 29 years starting a business. So I'm a mom. I have 3 boys. One graduates in June from University of Chicago. And middle son, graduate from Loyola University. And then my older son, he's a millennial, so he's out and about. So, you know, husband, he's retired, hanging out. And, you know, I love, you know, I love people reading and we do so much. I've been publishing for a long time. And so like yourself, you know, stories and how people are making things happen, ordinary people doing extraordinary things is what excites me.

Yeah, you know, I like that. Well, congratulations on the 29 years too, because I know in the business this is not easy. Plus with the things that you're doing that we'll dive into. I like what you just said because as we was talking earlier, that's one thing that I tried to base my podcast on when I first started, and I still do, ordinary people, you know, because as I looked around, Pam, I seen a lot of celebrities doing podcasts and things of that nature. And so I wanted to create a platform for the everyday man and woman, people that may not know of Pam, but all these great things and all these successes that you had in life, you know, these are the things and the type of people that I'm trying to highlight, you know, those that have a story, because not only celebrities have stories, we all have stories. And so, so I like that ordinary, you know, because it's all at the end of the day, it's all about trying to help and enhance people and give people a voice that may not be heard. So I like that. So Pam, yes, let me ask you, let's talk about Diversity MBA, the company you have led as CEO. What kind of services do you provide and what is the core mission behind the work that you do?

Ah, that's such a corporate question, CJ. So it's actually bigger than that. So Pino Group is a holding company, and within that we have 4 brands. We have a multimedia company that's Diversity MBA Media, and it's a full-scale media publishing, print, podcast, radio, all of that. And then we have research and benchmarking where we research best places to work, Fortune 1000 companies for diverse managers and women. So we capture that data on an annual basis. So we have more than 35,000 insights that we can share. And then our learning solutions organization, where we train everyone. We have certificate programs, assessments, consulting, training that we're able to provide educational platforms for the entrepreneur, individual, or corporate America. And then of course, we have the foundation, which is our impact and service side within the community. So 29 years has been a long time putting those platforms and integrated services together. I shared with you our business units. Within those business units, we have about 30 products.

Mm. Before we go any farther, because I'm interested in some of the things that you just said, where can we find your services online or anywhere where we could, you know, just overview and look at or maybe sign up?

Thank you for that. So this is a long one. So diversitymdamagazine.com. So diversity, D-I-V-E-R-S-I-T-Y. M as Mary, B boy, A apple, magazine, magazine.com. And the reason it's just not diversityinba.com is because we started off with diversityinbamagazine.com and Google said, well, you have millions and we can't— you don't want to change that. We're like, okay, we won't change that. So there you have it, diversityinbamagazine.com. And that's one website that has 4 multiple frameworks and websites built in. So it's a pretty robust site when you go to it.

Okay, make sure you send me that information so I can put it in the show notes, you know, for the audience to get and everything, plus myself. Plus I'll probably, uh, a lot of free stuff on there too. Okay, so Pam, the 50 Out Front initiative, I know you've, you know, you also been involved in that. Can you share more about the work you do with that initiative?

Absolutely. So that's the— instead of top 50, you know, people always hear about, hey, these are top 50 companies. We decided to name it the 50 Out Front companies. So the 50 companies are really the top 50 companies that are in the forefront for outstanding leadership in diversity, equity, and inclusion within their workplace. So, CJ, the way that started, we created 18 years ago a survey, 300-questionnaire survey, that more than 400, 500 companies on an annual basis participate in to benchmark themselves, to see how they compare competitively with other folks within the industry or the marketplace or other best-in-class companies. So from that, we have what you call a real-time insight in terms of what's going on within corporate America. And so what we recognize, we believe in recognizing progress, right? Because at the end of the day, nothing gets to absolute perfection. But you want to celebrate the milestones. And that's what we do. That's really what the celebrations and all the work I do. It's celebrating progress and the milestones because we have to. We have to celebrate ourselves along the way, I believe, so that we continue to have the progress. So we have, I mean, everywhere from the biggest blue chip companies, Walmart, even in its disgrace today, that participates, to the largest employers, wherever part of the world, your Advocate Health System, you might be familiar with that. The biggest healthcare systems. So we're a large survey company. Our regional companies are like Federal Reserve Banks of Chicago, Cleveland, San Francisco, Blue Cross Blue Shield. Those are the regional companies. So we're a big survey index and they're benchmarking in terms of how they do. They care about how they perform against the index itself. But also against other folks within their industry and that are not, that are just best in class.

You said something, and I know corporations and everything, like you said, we trying to see what competitors doing compared to what we doing. But I'm thinking as individually, something that you said as far as celebrating milestones, I know that like YouTube and certain things, they do that. They let you know, okay, what you did this year and you know what I'm saying? And cause a lot of times what it does, especially individually, visually, I'm just speaking for myself, when you see certain things, it encourages you to either want to do better or what do I need to progress in or what do I need to work on more at here and there. But when you see progress, it gives you that extra boost. Like, you know what, I can do this, or you know what I'm saying, or I can do it better. So yeah, I truly agree with the celebrating milestones and things of that nature because that's what pushes you to move forward towards the goal that you're trying to set. And, you know, whether it's negative or positive, you got to take the bitter with the sweet. You know, there's pros and cons to everything.

And we do that with our— as parents, we do that with our children, right? And I think particularly as people are doing good work and times are hard, it's important to find the small things to celebrate.

I totally agree. So Pam, let me ask you this: leadership in today's DEI landscape. With so much happening around dismantling DEI efforts in workplaces and schools across various nations, how does your leadership and expertise come into play with these situations?

So, you know, that's really a tough question, so I'm going to think about how to answer that. Take your time. Take your time. Yeah, because there's a lot to it. First, let me just say, you know, anything that is sensationalized by media, whether it's local, regional, or national media, has a spin in it that produces entertainment, sexiness, controversy. And while there may be some fact in it, it is not the absolute case in terms of what's occurring. So because we had leaders that talked about DEI not being something that— and trust me, they use the initials. DEI, and they never went beyond diversity. When you think about the folks that were weaponizing these words and acronyms, they really didn't mean anything to them. It was just a way to motivate another part of the population that didn't believe it in any way. So the first point, what I'm saying here is that you have to understand, you know, be able to recognize sensationalization. Things that are fads and what have you. And then we have a large part of the population that don't understand what diversity, what DEI is. So I typically say diversity, equity, and inclusion. And as a leader, the first thing I want to do is just ask you, so do you no longer care about diversity, the differences of people, their cultures, their opinions, their experiences? Does that mean nothing to you? Does that not matter with you in your workplace? And they're like, of course not. "that matters. We care about the diversity of differences and respect of our people." I'm like, "Okay, well, that's diversity." And I said, "Did you not want to ensure that everyone is treated fairly and when you're promoting them, that you're not just being fair, but you're also providing sameness and people can feel like they're included and belonging in workplace and a place they trust and want to grow and sustain and retire?" and develop? And they're like, of course that's what we want to do. I said, so equity, you know, inclusion and belonging, those are critical and part of your core principles? They said, absolutely they are. I said, so that is what diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging is. You know, it's something that's not new. It's something that started back in the Plan of Progress in the '60s with Lyndon B. Johnson, and then later, you know, with our civil rights movement where everyone was on the Black experience and been able to benefit women, LGBTQ, all other different ethnicities. And then corporate America with affirmative action just helped accelerate the process, and diversity just helped to ensure that it was prevalent and global. I said, so that's all it is. So you're either saying you don't basically care about human rights and equity of people, or you're saying, oh, I really didn't understand that. And I do care. So when you talk to them individually like that, it's important. And so I corner them and then I do that. But then you get the companies and this is just real and I'm here to say it, CJ, and I'm okay with it. Companies that can leave on, you know, with a little bit of disruption from someone else that it doesn't mean anything, it's meaningless anyway. Well, they weren't committed in the first place. They found a ship to jump on and to go out to sea. They found a way to get off the boat. And they did. They weren't committed or invested anyway. But those companies— and there's another half of them, if not more, that they're not talking about. There are 300 or 400 Fortune 500 companies they're not talking about, 1,000 companies that are committed and are vested. And they're the big names. And they're in it. And they're not leaving. Now, they may be reframing it and shifting it because they don't want to be caught up in the controversy of what's going on. In this particular moment, but they're there. So organizations that kind of are being reactive, and I'm just going to call them out, like Walmart. I mean, how do you basically react to something that someone, an individual political statement that they say that's causing, you know, everybody at some point in time will cause some ruffle and make a corporate decision to no longer support a group of workforce, a large workforce that you may have. You may not know who they are, but you've decided to alienate yourself. Well, guess what? They did it. And now they're like, hmm, that's what you call poor economics. They're not like, oops, we might have did it too fast because you're alienating people. You know, that's the core. So when, you know, I don't know why people may think DEI is a thing. And if we had a DEI president, man, I wish we did. I wish she was there.

Yeah.

But she's not. But, you know, and not to alienate anyone else's political point of view, but the point is women, women of color, you know, who have not been a leader of this free country is, you know, we still have some stereotypes and prejudices that we have to deal with here. So when you talk about what's happened, it's just surface. These are feelings and emotions that people have had. And I'm just going to say this about Trump. I love this about Trump. You heard me say it. I love this about Trump. He said, this is who I am. Now, you don't have to believe it if you don't want to, but this is who I am. So do not be confused. So I love the fact that he ain't lying about who he is.

Definitely who he is.

Okay, so, so, you know, you can't be mad at him. 'Cause this is what he said, I'm not changing. And so that part about him, I say, so when you're getting caught up and if you have a media system that's owned by the 1% and then they're controlling the narrative, so ordinary people may believe, well, wow, it's in Fox News, on Fox News station, it's in the Wall Street Journal, Washington Post isn't saying anything. So then you're like, well, there's gotta be something wrong with that. Whether they know what it is or not, but it's fundamental rights and systems. So CJ, you know affirmative action, how they got rid of it. Affirmative action is no longer here, but the systems and the processes and the methods in which it was founded on still exist. So diversity, equity, inclusion, the processes, the laws and procedures that prevent discrimination and unfair hiring and firing and these things, That's diversity, equity, inclusion. HR policies that are there to make sure that people are advanced equitably and fairly, to make sure people show up and have access. Those are practices that are in place. They're not going away. You can call it whatever you want to. It's embedded. It's within the systems and the practices. And guess what? Companies that are saying, oh no, we don't want to do this, we don't want to call it that, those practices are embedded in their stuff too, or they'd be in lawsuits every day. So that's the hard part that people don't understand about what it means. So now what did it cause the industry to do? If you want to call diversity, equity, inclusion, you know, diversity in industry, well, they're having to reframe it. They're having to reshape how they talk about it. They're having to be careful in the words and the language they use. And I'm going to tell you, I was a proponent when I was— when I speak to hundreds of diversity officers and leaders. And I was a proponent to say, you guys, be careful when you talk about targeting, you know, particularly my diverse recruiting book. You talk about targeting one group and excluding white men. Be careful. Make sure you're transparent in what you're trying to do. Make sure you're clear on that messaging. Oh, the reason we're focusing on Hispanics and Blacks in management roles, because there's only 15% and white males while we see an advancement of women, white women at 30%, which is great. You guys are holding 60%. Y'all kind of got the dominance. And so we're trying to level the playing field. But you don't tell them that. And you know, and John Doe in the field and the plant environment that doesn't get exposed to the least, fearful of the unknown and thinking, oh my, you're not including me. And yes, the good people, I believe, did make some mistakes in not making sure white men were not the leadership level, they are all in it, but the ones on the ground, making sure that they understood it and that they were champions. I call white men our most influential champions. They have to be because they're the largest part of the workforce. So when it comes to management roles, so, you know, so there's all this stuff. Now I'm going to stop talking, but there's all that stuff and why. So I'm— so what am I about? I'm about Educating folks, giving them a little bit of history if they'll listen so they can say, ah, understanding how valid their thinking is, not saying that they're wrong, but say, hey, you had good cause for feeling and thinking this way. And then say, this is the change that's coming. You can either be a part of it, you can stay in the middle, or you can stay behind it. So to be a part of it, that's where it allows you to make changes of those things you control and to have a voice and to have an input. In what can happen for you. And I will say this last thing. It's no longer about me. It's really about the next generation. It's about ensuring the sustainability of our country as a world leader for the next generation. And that's what we have to think about. So it's getting out of our own way and having those one-on-one conversations, right? Being part of these kind of conversations and listening Dr. John Powell, who is the executive director of the Institute of Belonging and Othering at UC Berkeley, California. He just did a book on othering, CJ, and belonging. And he— oh my God, he so eloquently explained what belonging is. He said people's most fundamental needs is to belong before food and water, is the need to belong. That's the number one. So when you have that, And you had— he calls the other group othering. So you have to have— if you really want people to feel and be a part of belonging, you have to be able to listen to what they have to say, whether you agree or not. And the othering could be, for us, trumpets. And we have to do that and then be able to see where we can have a common ground so we can move forward. And that was one of the best, best explanations that helped me define and believe what belonging and othering is. And we people get caught up in their cults and their groups and say, we all belong here, and then they leave the othering here. So we have to have— if we're truly want to be a country of belonging, we have to bring everyone, everyone along. So I'm going to stop with that. But who— I tell you, I got to think about how—

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I can't say it because it's so much.

Yeah, yeah, I know you got to protect yourself in case You know what I'm saying? Go off the—

but it's one thing. Oh no, no, no, let's don't be confused. No, I don't. I have all the facts and stuff. I can back it all up. You can ask me. I said, you just gotta stop me 'cause I keep going.

Nah. I like that, fam.

I am that expert. I got— I'll back it up for you.

Yeah, I like that. Hey, it was one thing, you know, there's certain things you just can't add on to because you've been in these rooms and you've talked to these people and you have the insight. And I appreciate you sharing that with us. And there's one thing that you said that really caught my attention and got me thinking about it even more, because it was said that they felt as though, when we talking about white men, that they felt as though they were being pushed out, you know what I'm saying? And so that's why a lot of things was occurring. But you said something that was valuable that I believe. You said that to include everybody so people don't feel left out, And then either you agree with it or you don't agree with it and things of that nature. And so with that being said, with people feeling left out and now saying we are what we are, now that makes more sense to me of the narrative that we've been hearing. I think that what you just, the insight that you just gave made it a little more clearer on why. Now maybe I might have to ponder on it a little bit to catch up with what you were saying, but I like that you brought that nugget out. So Pam, let's switch a little bit. Let's go to something, one of your little pet projects, something that I know that you're very excited about. Your book, okay, Skinny on Diversity on Recruiting, has gained a lot of attention. So I guess my question is, what inspired you to write this book?

Corporate America. So that's my first of 7. The second one will be out, the Skinny on Inclusion would be asked. So, you know, I realized and they realized it was— we were capturing data, best practice data on diversity recruiting, a very detailed level, and really weren't sharing it to the marketplace. We shared it to our corporate customers and those folks. And I had to think a long time about, well, if we are going to talk about this and just provide trends and insights, let me see what people are saying. And what I found, it was there wasn't anything out there. I'm like, oh, wow, I'm going to literally bring forward for people what diversity recruiting is and what that means. And so to be able to do that, and then I actually invited some voices. So we didn't just— well, the inspiration was because it was a gap. There was a gap in the marketplace. We were already training on diversity recruiting. We had many, many insights for about almost a decade. And then the recruiting organizations, the big associations, they didn't have anything around this. They weren't talking about it. And because we were capturing the strategies and the initiatives and the metrics, and they weren't so good, but we were capturing everything in terms of what companies were doing. And then we had some of those thought leaders participate in the book as well. And we created it. And I wanted it to be a guide. So I wanted it to be the skinny. So that it was thin enough that you can keep it with you as a resource guide and for you to be able to look at it and go back and see it because these are corporate strategies. You know, these are real things that companies are doing that are foundational so a new organization can do it. And so when I saw that companies were just using it as a reference and found it as a good way for practices, and then I just said, okay, this is great to share. And then I got excited let me get the second book done, which is done now. But I just think it was important, I guess, to share the data that we were collecting in a way that could be useful for people and to have insights for them to help them make decisions. And so I think it's done that.

So with this book, what are some of the key takeaways that you would like readers to walk away with?

So in the book, I try to tell some real corporate strategies, but I try to tell the story of you as an individual if you're on the individual side looking for a company to work for, you know, here, make sure they're the best practice company for you. Make sure you interview them the same way. You know, is this the culture I want to be a part of? Are there real advancement opportunities? You know, is retention high because nobody ever leaves, you know, the leadership roles? I mean, or the management roles or the opportunities, they stay, or is it high because it's a good company? And there's a lot of mobility and advancement within it. So I encourage people to interview these organizations they're going to. And then I would provide— and I guess for the companies and even for anyone that sits into targeted recruiting to understand what companies are doing and why they're targeting, you know, they're targeting persons with disabilities. Are they a true environment that's offering essential functions that allows you as a person maybe that has a physical disability to advance. So it's really helping folks to understand what companies are doing in these targeted recruitings and what that means. And then I think the last thing is that there's some real strategies you can, you know, people told me you can lay out your full roadmap. Yeah, we give it to you. I don't hold back. So as the top 3 things I think about, one is the individual. Make sure you leverage information you know and interview the companies as well as having them interview you. Two is, do you fit in any of those targeted recruiting roles? If so, understand what they're looking for. And then three, corporations that are— or employers that are looking to have a recruiting strategy, this will give you a roadmap to do that.

Oh, okay. So Pam, earlier you mentioned, when you talking about the book, you mentioned that It was something that you filled in the gap. Yes, it was a gap that needed to be filled. So addressing diversity gaps, when it comes to diversity and recruitment, how can businesses effectively identify and address diversity gaps within their process?

So let me ask you, do you want me to share the real truth, or you want me to put a little icing on it?

Whatever your heart desires, Pam.

Well, you know, I always like to ask before I share the honest truth. I always like to ask what you want to hear because—

I like it real. I like transparency.

There's two things. So when— so there's two answers to that. There's large companies, corporations, and then there's your, you know, 46% of our workforce are in small businesses and small businesses, owners of color and women. And white women tend to have workforces that are similar to themselves. And that's okay because collectively they make up 46% of the workforce. And so they'll be based on referrals. I would just say that, you know, referrals within your communities, just do the same kind of assessment you would with somebody you don't know to ensure they're bringing in the skills and competencies and proficiencies that you need. And, you know, I always say hire Hire slow and fire fast. So make sure you have your things in place to ensure for metrics, for performance in both ways. And most fundamentally, have an onboarding process and then you'll be okay. And there's so many tools and also with AI, job descriptions, performance reviews that you should have fundamentally in place when you're hiring. So for smaller organizations, just make sure you do your due diligence. And you'll also, you're going to bring in diversity. I'm not worried about that. They'll do that because they're doing it within that circle and those communities. Now, your large employers where you have 75% of white Americans on the front line doing the recruiting, and within that you have 67% white women. And I have to say this because if the lens and the landscape of who's doing your front line recruiting are predominantly white and then predominantly white women, there's inherent bias that's just there. Regardless of what's happening in the systems, it's there. So organizations have to have systems in place to mitigate talent that you may not get access to because of a person's perspective. That's reality. And that has been a barrier and obstacle for decades. So now that we're talking about it and bringing it in front, and we ask them, so what are you doing to mitigate bias? What are you doing to ensure not just on the front end, but once you get inside, What are you doing on an ongoing basis to do that? So companies, you know, they have established diverse slate process where for the leadership management levels, you're required to have, you know, 2 women, 2 diverse, 50% of it or 70% of it diverse and not just all white males.

So it allows—

and everybody's qualified. In fact, the diverse people are probably more qualified in most cases, but every— there's no limitations in the qualifications, but you now have a broader choice. And if you're trying to diversify your management ranks, and we know, and Harvard did the study, that if you have at least half of your slate diverse, you're going to probably hire a diverse person or gender different. So then the other issue, the other opportunity companies have, they have what we call recruiting panels. So they have, they'll pick people in different disciplines, ethnicities, and genders to be on the panel to review and interview different candidates. They also will have what they call blind resumes. So they're just looking at the skills and competencies and, you know, taking off that I'm a part of Black MBA Association, I'm a part of Hispanic MBA, you know, taking that out. So you can't look at ethnicity, trying to find the way as much as they can to eliminate bias. And without those systems in place, organizations are going to continue to do the same thing the same way and not have diversity. And those are the ones that have issues with it. So we give them a lot of tools and telling them, and that is the gap. Now, are they better with it today? They are. Your best-in-class companies have figured it out. And I'm not saying fire, you know, white Americans, but I am saying it's a best-in-class. To have at least 50% of diversity on your recruiting teams. And those companies have proven and we have demonstrated how successful they are in hiring. So they don't need a lot of other stuff because they have that lens, because people are just different, you know, idiosyncrasies. You know, if I give you my hand, I have too much lotion on, I stick my hand out there, you know, you just go grab it. And there's cultural things that people just don't know.. And so we want to make sure that we're able to represent that. And that's part of the gap. And so companies also are leveraging AI. And you have to be careful. Yes, in our data, I think our index, only about 60% of the companies do it because you have to— companies have to invest in the algorithms to make sure they take out the biases. But it is a tool that helps them go broader and further than they ever have. Leveraging remote. We have organizations that have been highly successful by auditing what positions in our organizations can be highly productive remotely and created diverse platforms and then been able to hire more. Like in Iowa, if you're looking to hire 50% of diversity in your engineering groups and you only got 5% of diversity in the population, it ain't going to happen. So you have to do some things.

Yeah.

And so where— Leaders are allowing innovation for diversity. It's happening. It's not— we're not guessing it. We have facts. We have records. It's happening. And so companies that don't, and they're still crying about it because they haven't made a decision to invest in it. And I'll tell you this too, CJ. The leading companies that say we're going to partner with HBCUs and HSIs, Hispanic— predominantly Hispanic universities, historically Black university, they have to invest in the infrastructure to ensure that those universities develop that pipeline that they can later hire. They may not get them, but someone in their industry will. That's the level of investment that's happening right now. And it has to, because if they don't go create and invest in that talent, we're not going to get it. It's not going to happen because we have influences that are coming in globally. And I tell companies, you don't get to count the non-US one person as diverse. You just don't. They may try to, but we call them out. Nah, those are global people and they're okay, but they global. And so, so that, those are, so those are the gaps. So there's still a lot, but if we can close that gap a little bit and each time a little bit, and on the flip side of recruiting and, you know, talent acquisition is retention. So if you can keep who you're hiring, And then hire, if you're hiring, you know, 5% and you can keep that 10%, you will diversify your workforce. But if it's rolling out as fast as it's coming in, there's something wrong within the culture. So it's really not news, but that's what's happening, folks. That's exactly what's happening. And people are people.

I love the insight. You like a walking Rolodex with the data. You say, you say 60% All right, this is 70%. I, I love it. I, I love this insight that you're giving us, Pam. I only got like 2 more questions for you, but before I ask you that, can you tell us where can we find you at on social media, your social media handles?

Okay, I have a marketing manager, but I have— so my website is pamelaanakobay.com. You can find all of our diversity, actually Facebook, Instagram, all of them. We're on all of them. And you can Diversity MBA, if you just go to Google and put Diversity MBA and ask for their social media handles, they'll all come up. I will get better at that. But I don't do my own hashtagging. But I do have my LinkedIn though. Pamela McIlvaine. I do have my own. I do know my own LinkedIn. Yes, because, you know, it's millions. We are on our website, diversitymagazine.com. We do have our streaming from WCPT, uh, Chicago Progressive Talk, 820 AM radio show. We have all of our shows there. And so you can, you know, find— see that level of diversity, which I'm going to invite CJ on now.

I love it. I would.

And, uh, so, you know, I'm all out there. I mean, there's— you just put Diversity MBA in and Boom.

Yeah, you know what, I don't blame you because one thing that they, you know, I've learned in podcasts that a guy say, he say you automate, eliminate, and delegate. So I don't blame you when you say that, hey, I don't know nothing about my social media handles, I got people doing that for me. That is cool. I can't wait to grow up and be like you, pal, one day.

Yeah, my people, me and my people get with your people. Yeah, yeah, come on.

I like that.

I am going to get it, but I did. You're right, it was automate, delegate, and what is eliminate? Yeah, and that is, you know, for those of them that are small business owners that are CEOs, even the scale at me, even as a 29-year entrepreneur, I go through CEO development too. And they told us if we can't walk away from our business for 3 months and it continues to move on, you are too much of an integral part of your business. You are not ready to scale to go to the next level. There's parts of my business, probably 75% of it, I could walk away from.

Mm-hmm.

That's awesome. That's what you have to— that's what you always have to strive to do is, you know, what is that, that next level? Right, kind of thing. Yeah.

So anyway, I mean, I love you. Not only are you giving us great insight on, uh, diversity and the gaps and everything, you're giving us great business wisdom as well. As a 29-year-old veteran, you got to sit there and take it and soak it up and take it in. So just let me ask you two more questions, Pam, and I'll let you get to your busy schedule. Common misconceptions. In your experience, what are some common misconceptions about diversity recruiting, and how can organizations overcome these?

Yeah, that's really good. You talk about the common misconceptions. I think I had a chapter on that one. And well, you said misconceptions. One is that people of color, particularly Black people and Hispanic people, are unqualified and hired by favoritism and are provided quotas. And that's furthest from the truth because companies won't make that risk. They won't take that risk. They won't allow that risk because somebody will be accountable and lose their job. So know that anybody that's going to be hired is going to be qualified. Nepotism, that was popular, I would, you know, decades ago. CJ, you're risking a lawsuit. So outside of your— even in your own privately held company, you're careful at how you do that. You definitely can hire your son, your daughter, you definitely can, but you're careful on how you do it. You're making sure that they're qualified, you know, um, you have some really specific things in place so that the rest of the employees feel okay and not just that this is something that they get, that the TV shows show that that doesn't happen. Very, very, very, maybe very, very, very small companies. But you're not going to see that happen in privately held companies, particularly family-owned. They're going to make sure. So that people side of it is one that I just need people to be real clear. Everybody can be sued. So that's a misconception. Misconception that you can't be sued. Everybody can be sued. Everyone, regardless of size, has to be hired by a— The other misconception is that majority of people don't believe in diversity, equity, and inclusion, and they do. They actually are okay with it. They just want to understand and have more clarity about what it is if they're not clear on it. They want more open expression. And that's now starting to happen. But, and I think the reason people thought different ways that were negative is because people weren't sharing. There's this closed, this closed circuit. And the other misconception is that, you know, anybody within an organization can be a recruiter. Recruiters are not hired as recruiters and trained as recruiters. Recruiters are tapped in. From other departments within the organization where the human resource department sees this person that's a good manager, that has a great relationship, personality, acumen. They know how to do team collaboration, and this will be a good person to be recruiting and externally representing our companies. That's how it's happened. It's tapped, you know, it's a tap. So the fact that people of color aren't there is because they don't think they have to be. And so, and that's an opportunity. So they don't have to be. It is misconception that they have to be white women or white men. It's just folks tap into who they know. So, so those are some of the, you know, the common, very fundamental ones. And then also that I would say is that the other misconception is that companies don't want to know what you want. From them, that too. They do. They do want to know, you know, where you look. They want to know that you went and looked and said, oh, y'all best-in-class company. Oh, I saw that y'all won. What does that mean? But how does that look like? How does, how does your role talking to the recruiters as people, you know, how do you feel your advancement opportunity? That's a misconception. People think recruiters don't want that angle. They might have a lot that they're doing, but yeah, the level of engagement. So I hope that gave you a little bit of insight.

Yeah.

In terms of the recruiting line, the front line of the recruiting.

Yeah, because you know, like my wife, she works for the hospital, and so she has a friend that does the recruiting, you know, one of the recruiters at one of the hospitals and whatnot. And something that you just said was, I never knew that, the engagement part of it when you're dealing with a recruiter, because you know, you're so nervous and everything when you Because you trying to get the job, so you ain't thinking about just having a conversation like, "Hey, what are the chances of me advancing in this company?" Just being confident. You just worried about the first step, like, "Can I get this aid job?" Or, you know what I'm saying? Or a cat scam job or things of that nature. I never thought about the engagement part of it.

Yeah, absolutely. How's their career has gone? How'd you become, right? You're engaging people. Yeah, absolutely. People don't think about that because you're absolutely right. You know, I thought there was something that the organizations said, we can't find the talent. I just wanted to say, can we hear that often? That, oh yeah, we can find this. That's because they're looking. They're not looking and they're not asking and they're not investing in the right places. So the misconception that they can't find it is just the opposite, is that they're not doing— they just elected not to do the work. So I just want to make sure we equate what that really means.

Thanks for that tidbit. Now, one more question. I'm going to let you go, Pam. I really enjoyed the insights and the wisdom that you bestowed upon us today. So stand on the a recruitment thing. So future trends in diversity recruitment. So looking ahead, how do you envision the future of diversity recruitment evolving, and what trends do you see shaping this landscape?

Okay, I'm glad there's only one more question, CJ Moneyway Johnson. Uh, yeah, so The future— first one, the future trends of diversity recruiting, it's not going away. Companies are still doing it and still investing. GE just announced the other day a major strategy that they'll be doing to go after diverse pipelines. Can't afford to. Companies can't afford to. It's been proven year over year over year, the success of diversity think tanks, diversity teams, innovate— how innovation is created, how tension actually occurs that creates positive energy. So organizations are continuing to have strategic plans to go into diverse colleges and systems. They still have relationships. They leverage their employee resource groups to continue to find strategies. Those are groups of, you know, the cultural teams within companies to help drive retention. And recruiting externally is helping to lay out different ways they can go out and identify different talent. I think what companies are doing, in fact, I know what they're doing, is they are being careful. So what they might not have done before is looked at potential risk. And now, you know, okay, what can we do to make sure we mitigate risk in our targeted recruiting? If we're going on campus to recruit persons with disabilities, what are we doing to make sure we're not excluding any group within that? What's the language look like that in our, in our job descriptions, in our job postings to make sure we're not excluding anyone? So it's a little more intentional and risk mitigation in the recruiting process than it ever has been before. I do see that trend. Legal is not necessarily doing oversight, but providing insights into operational areas that they just hadn't done before. And that's to try to help other business leaders mitigate risk and think about where they potentially, you know, could create lawsuits. And I'll just be honest with you there. So how do you do that? So some of it in the targeted areas, they may say we have preferences for Hispanic, but all are welcome to apply. We have a preference, you know, for this group, but all are welcome so that white males don't feel excluded. And also organizations are doing a better job with that middle workforce that felt the fear and why they felt excluded because they, they, it was a fear of unknown. So they're trying on the front end to do a better job in communicating and bring them along with you. And you'll see always leadership has always been there, but they're now finding ways to have more of them to be there with them and to help mitigate this temporary— and it is temporary, it will pass. But I don't think the legal, the litigious insight will go away. I think that will become a standard part of talent acquisition, exit interviews, different other internal components within the workplace, unfortunately. Just to ensure business leaders, you know, don't go off the rails in terms of accidentally excluding anyone. And so diversity recruiting. So with that, it's not going to go away. They may— some companies are changing. They are actually changing some of the language that's happening. They're not calling it targeted. You know, some of them are using intentional. They're using different words. That is happening right now and probably will sustain so that they ensure They're broadening the definition of diversity so that white men are included. So you can think of all the ways that they're included. And when you think about all groups except the groups of color, they are the largest group of veterans, the largest group of disabilities, the largest group in LGBTQIA. So people don't say that, but that's another misconception. But they want to be better at how they do that. And the opportunity to bring in corporate communications to help them for more inclusive, holistic messaging around talent acquisition is— you're going to see that as a major shift and trend that occurs.

So yeah, Pam, I think you gave us, as the word would say, more than enough. Okay, you probably have to sit back and listen to this podcast a couple times and get a notebook and pen to take some notes on so much stuff that you gave us today. I surely I appreciate it. I really appreciate you coming on the show today and giving us your insight on this diversity. I think you've opened up my eyes to a certain level on how some of the things work, and as far as what you were saying about the misconception and how the tool of involving everyone to feel a part of it. So I think you made that point clear. If you include everybody, although this group, We're hiring for this group, but everybody's included. We're hiring for this group, but everybody's included. And so nobody feels left out, and then we wouldn't have this void or this discord that we're looking at that we're facing right now. So I think you shed a lot of light on that, especially for me. And I believe the listeners would get that too, because we might have been thinking about it different, but hearing it from somebody that's actually in the trenches, that know these things, that got the insight, 29 years of experience. I'm going to sit here and listen. So, Pam, if you have anything else to leave us with, another nugget, we appreciate it.

Okay, well, one, I'm going to make sure you get your book, CJ. I think I had them sent to me, so I'm going to go ahead and sign it and get that over to you since it didn't come directly to you. And then the only nugget I will tell you guys, the way that I keep it going is resilience for that which I believe insistence for that which I know must happen, and persistence to ensure future sustainability in order to elevate and thrive to the next level. It's not about surviving, it's about thriving.

You heard that here on the CJ Moneyway Johnson Show with my new friend Pam. She says, 'Bout striving.' Hey, go pick up the book Skinny on Diversity Recruiting be on the lookout for a new book, Skinny on Inclusion. Hey, 29 years experience in the workforce. You heard all the things she had to say. Lady knows what she talking about, walking a Rolodex. Hey, you have been listening to the CJ Moneyway Show with your boy CJ Moneyway. We outta here. Peace.

Thank you for listening to the CJ Moneyway Show. Don't forget to share this episode with your friends, leave a comment, and drop a review. Be sure to tune in every Tuesday and Friday for more inspiring journeys. Who knows, your story might be next.

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