The 4-Step Process to Influence Anyone – Insights from ‘Persuade’

What's up, my good people? Welcome to the CJ Moneyway Show in association with Believe Network, the podcast that brings you stories behind success. Today we have on the show managing partner and author Andres. Hey, welcome to the show, Andres. How you doing today, man?

Good, good. Thank you for having me. How you doing today?

I'm good, man. Thank you for taking the time out your busy schedule, man, to come on the CJ Moneyway Show.

Uh, I'm excited to chat.

I appreciate it, man. Appreciate it. So let's start by getting to know you a little better, Andreas. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and about your background?

Sure. So I think, uh, the first thing is, uh, my name. If it's a bit troubling to, to pronounce it, it's because I'm originally Venezuelan, uh, and then, uh, so Venezuela, then, uh, Canada and then the US. So kind of been a little bit everywhere, but I guess mainly in the Americas. And, you know, so now I've been in the US now for a little bit over 15 years. I came here for graduate school and then, like many others, found it to be an incredible place and have stuck around. So I've kind of lived all over the country at this point, but now settled for many years in Baltimore, and it's now where I call home. So I— one kind of side shoot story that You know, I just— you never know the way the world's going to work. But I came to Baltimore to work with Ron Shapiro, who founded the company that I manage now, and we could talk more about that in a bit. But I, I was actually rented a place by the week because I was going to be here for a project that was supposed to last a few weeks. And that was about 15 and a half years ago. And so I told my, you know, was not my wife back then, don't worry about it, I'll be back soon. And so, boy, was I wrong. So I guess you never know where life's going to take you, man.

That's true, man. You never know what life's going to take you. And one thing they always say, never say never, because you never know, you know what I'm saying? Like you say, what paths you may have to go down. It may not have been something that you was planning, but it was something that was destined and something that was meant to be. So that's pretty cool, man. Um, so I ask you, Andreas, what inspired you to pursue a career in negotiations and consulting?

Yeah, so for me, it was a little bit of luck and then a little bit of, you know, strategy, let's call it. So when I went to graduate school, I got my MBA and a Master of Sports Administration. And during that process, kind of leading up when I was in college in those years, I got a lot of different internships. So I knew I wanted to work in sports. That was the one thing I knew. At first I thought I wanted to be an agent. And so I had the pleasure of working with, with agents. And what's interesting is I'm one of the few people I think that can say in this world that I worked for 3 agents and all 3 were really, really incredible people. They loved their clients, represented them well. They were great people. You know, I would trust them with anything. So I was very fortunate. That's not always the reputation that agents have in sports. And this is across a lot of different sports, big and small. So, but with that experience, even though it was a good one, I didn't particularly kind of— I didn't get as much satisfaction for getting a good deal when you're the player because it kind of felt like you're setting up the family. But it didn't get me as excited as what I was seeing happen the other side, which is when they developed great relationships with their players. They kept great players, they got great deals, they built great teams. They really kind of— they won championships. It felt like there was more there. It was more interesting to me. And so I wanted to figure out how to do that. And essentially then I went to graduate school. And I kind of serendipitously ran into Ron Shapiro, who started this company. And I was looking then at, you know, if you ask me what I want to be, I want to be the GM of a sports team, the general manager. So it's the same thing on the other side of the table. And by chance, Ron was negotiating some contracts as an agent, but also was advising teams in other sports. I thought this could be interesting. And that's actually what I mentioned. That was a, you know, it was renting a place by the week because it'd be quick. And what I found is I learned so much from Ron, who had already been so successful in sports in so many different areas for 30 years, that I stayed here. I felt like that was a continuation of my education. It was kind of a— you know, I had gone to graduate school, but now I was getting the practical education. And so it was such a good experience that I stayed. And then very fortunately, about 7 years ago, he took a step back and then I took over the company. But so, you know, there was a sports piece that was very important to me. The negotiating piece is very interesting to me, but it's kind of figuring out what part of that I want to do and what roles actually exist that allow me to do that. And so now I get the best of both worlds, which is we work in sports and out of sports. In sports, we advise teams on player negotiations, sponsorship negotiations, and then we also work with team— with organizations outside of sports. So it's kind of a happy mix. And that part I got very, very lucky with.

Man, that— there you go again. Uh, what we talking about earlier, you never know what life gonna take you to, huh? You know, it is— you met this man, what, 15 years ago, you say, and now he stepped back and you stepped in his shoes. I'm pretty, pretty sure you didn't see that, you know, when you first started in either, you know. So life been good for you, man, for sure.

And you got to be appreciative, you got to be grateful, because I mean, the luck involvement is You know, as much as I want to say it's hard work and doing the right things, and there's some of that, I think you get more dice rolls in the game of life if you do the right things and you put in the work. But, you know, luck has a big factor too, that's for sure.

Yeah, you know, just listening to you and sound— you're a smart guy, so, you know, you put all that together and mix it up in a pot and then this is what you're gonna come out, you know, great success, man. And so, uh, So, so, uh, I think about, right, you talking about your mentor, uh, Andres, tell us, man. So you co-authored a, a, a book entitled Persuade. Uh, could you explain a little bit about the 4-step process of to influence, uh, people mentioned in the book?

Yeah, for sure. And, and so what we found was it's based on our influence training. And so what we found is Aristotle back in 350 BC, had found something that really today continues to be really powerful, which is how people make decisions. Is what he found is ethos, pathos, logos, which means credibility first. So, you know, in this conversation that you and I are having, for folks that are listening and watching, you know, if you and I are deemed to be credible, people are going to care about what we say, listen and care and put it into action, right? It's kind of a 1-0. But if they don't, there's so much competing attention, you know, noise and things for our attention that we simply don't care, it just kind of goes in one ear and out the other. So credibility is the first, you know, the really most important thing to get things started. And one crude example I like to bring up is if you look at any toothpaste commercial, you're gonna find someone that either is or looks like a dentist in the TV commercial. And that's because they're building credibility with you, right? Oh, this person's an expert, so I should listen to them about the toothpaste. So the next is emotion. So first credibility, then comes emotion. And the big breakthrough that Aristotle had is that people make decisions emotionally and then they justify them rationally. And that's really important to really think about, because what happens is most of the time we're selling something, we're trying to influence others, we're working internally or externally for an entrepreneur, we're trying to get people to do something through logic. These are the 3 reasons you should do this. We've worked with 500 other people, or it's usually through kind of data. But with a big— he had is you actually want to compel others emotionally And the data, the evidence, storytelling, that helps you to kind of justify it. So the third piece, after credibility, emotion, then comes logic. So there definitely is a time and a place, but it's about how to do it as compelling as possible, but also when to do it. So that's kind of where Aristotle stopped, and he was certainly ahead of his time and brilliant. And so what we found though is there needed to be something else added for it to be practical. And so the fourth step we added in this is facilitate action. And that's really how do you create an environment that's as likely as possible that the other party is going to take the action that you desire, right? And so if you can think of any time where, you know, CJ and I are talking, what do you think, is this a good idea? This is a great idea. Okay, good. And then 2 weeks from now, checking, hey CJ, did you get a chance to do that? Ah, sorry man, life got in the way. And so what happens is there's a few things you can do to make it as likely as possible for it to happen. It's not that you didn't want to do it, it's that 2, 3, 4, 5 other competing priorities happen, life happened. Family, other job priorities, whatever it may be. And so there are certainly ways you're going to take some control and make it— you can't guarantee it, but you can increase the probability those things are actually taken into account and actually done. So that's really the 4-step process of credibility, emotion, logic, and action, man.

You know, that, like, like, especially that last one, like you just said, uh, a lot of times what we call it procrastination. You want to do it and you intend to do it, you plan on do it. Like, you a lot of times something, I got my mind set on doing this, and then other things just coming away, and then I forget about it, you know. And so I, I like that concept that you talking about where it'll keep you where you, you know, it's not guaranteed that you do it, but it can keep you on track, you know, not to forget it as much as, you know what I'm saying, that sometimes when you just got it on your mind, but you know, it's Putting it to the wayside, as like I said, like we used to say back in the day, procrastination about it, you know, just putting it to the side and just, uh, not, not, not really focusing on what, what you need to focus with, uh, at hand. Oh, so, uh, Andres, tell us, man, tell us about your involvement, uh, involvement with, uh, Shapiro Negotiation Institution and again, how did you get started there?

Yeah, so, you know, a little bit about us. And so I mentioned kind of how I got here, which is the sports piece. So Ron was an agent and he ran the Shapira Negotiation Institute, which was really kind of a training and consulting firm in the areas of negotiation. So he started it about 29 years ago now. And so for those first kind of 15 years, it was really focused on negotiation. But 15 years ago, right as I was getting here,. It started to really open up the influence training area, which is really what kind of Persuade is about, that, that book we just talked about in the 4-step model. So it's a negotiation, influence training consulting company. And so really it's kind of split into two parts. There's the sports work that we do that often gets a lot of attention. It's kind of the sexier piece because we're helping teams negotiate player contracts that are super public or sponsorship negotiations that are really, really high dollar. And, you know, a lot of— there's a lot of passion in sports. And so While most people probably won't know the CEO of every company in the Fortune 500, or really very few of them, you know, most people will know certainly the head coach and the best players of the, you know, the football team they follow or the baseball team they follow. And so it's just kind of more public. But that's, you know, that's a portion of it. And actually, over time, you know, that while that piece stays the same, we do a lot of work there. It's the non-sports side that's really grown. And so I think what we're seeing is lots of companies investing in negotiation training because It's a soft skill. And over time, as technology takes a bigger and bigger piece of it, communication skills, negotiation skills, leadership skills— these are all skills that appear to be more and more valued over time. And so there we're training kind of Fortune 500, Fortune 5,000 types of companies. And we do it globally. So we actually train in 7 languages. So I'm excited about both. And I've really come to enjoy both. I got here because of the sports. But we do a lot of work outside of sports. And I find that just as meaningful.

So talking about training and, and, and things that, you know, you guys have implemented, you think the things I've been doing over the last 15 years, the company was founded in 1995 and have trained over 250,000 professionals. What makes Superior Negotiation Institute the world leader in training, consulting, and keynote speaking?

You know, it's a, it's a great question and one that we get asked often, and I think We end up fitting into this really happy medium that seems like a really good fit, that we are big enough to do very large global implementations, to work with the Fortune 50, Fortune 100, that we can handle really large scale. We're training thousands of people and we're doing it globally. And so there's really kind of that ability to run a very large program for a very large company, which not a lot of organizations can do. Right? That's number one. Number two, we're very focused. So we work in just about every industry. We've talked about sports. We work in tech. We work in manufacturing. We work in a lot of life sciences, so medical device, pharmaceuticals, banking. But we only focus on negotiation and influence training. And so that's the second piece. And I think the third is all that's combined where we're still the size kind of boutique style where we are kind of white glove service in the sense that we're tailored, we're customized. And we really kind of are able to get to know our clients and adjust our offerings based on that. So there's lots of other organizations that offer this type of training, but that combination of being large enough to play with the big boys, but small enough and nimble enough to really kind of tailor things and make it really relevant regardless of what industry you're in, and the 29 years of focusing on really only two things, right, negotiation and influencing, I think that's the combination that really kind of sets us apart, or at least that's what we hear from our clients.

Nah, that's pretty cool. I mean, you know, and, and I like the concept that you, that you just brought up. Like, we can play with the big boys, but, uh, you said nimble, but I heard humble enough where we can tailor things to those that's, you know, said that's not Fortune 500 companies or, you know, Fortune 50 companies of that nature. And we humble enough to tailor our, our, our needs and our services to those that actually need it and trying to grow their business and not You know, I think that's pretty cool, man. And so what you guys over there doing? So Andreas, tell us, man, how can, how can you share a bit about, can you share a little bit about the founder Rod Shapiro and the vision that he had for the company when he first started?

Yeah. So, I mean, I think the vision and kind of what he had in mind is perfectly encapsulated by how it started. So he was a really successful baseball agent. Represented the absolute who's who of baseball players, the Kirby Buckets and Eddie Murray, Cal Ripkens, all these top, top players. And what was happening is he was negotiating really large deals. But unlike almost really any agent at the time, but certainly any agent of that size, he had very good relationships with the teams. And so what happened is when he started the institute, it was the same teams that he had been negotiating with. So not against, but with. Those owners were asking him to do training and keynotes for the companies that they had outside of sports. And I think that encapsulated— so he wrote a book to launch the company, which is called The Power of Nice. So it's kind of behind me here, the dark blue. And so the Power of Nice is really the negotiating philosophy, which is the power is key, right? When you're negotiating, you're maximizing your objective, right? If you're an agent, you got to get your client whether it's paid in the right location and a good environment., you know, the right number of years. You got to be thoughtful about the total deal and you got to negotiate the best deal possible. If you're in pharmaceutical sales, you know, there's product that you have to move, but you want to do it the right way. The right way means deep discovery, caring about what the other side cares about, having empathy, right? And so it's, it's really having a genuine interest in the other party. And so I think he was really kind of unique to that. And so that's really what excited him is he always talked about kind of empowering and he felt like it was the ultimate equalizer. You had some folks that might naturally be better at negotiating, but really what he taught, which is skills and a systematic approach, that's what he felt most passionate about. I can't tell you how many times he would talk about that. He talked about preparation as the only aspect of a negotiation over which you have control. Right. So that's what excited him, is that anybody could improve their negotiation skills and you could really empower them to perform better.

Oh, so as we talked before we got on, uh, on the show, so he represents the Iron Man, huh?

I mean, he represented the Iron Man.

Oh man, man, I remember them days, man, back in the '80s. That was a bad boy shortstop, then went to third base, and he was a bad boy back then. So, um, so Andres, tell us, man, what are some key differences negotiation tactics you use when negotiating on behalf of professional sports clients versus, let's say, negotiating with a pharmaceutical company?

So it's an interesting question because the, you know, here are the differences, the similarities. So the similarities are we talk about our process. So all of our negotiators kind of follow this 3-piece process: prepare, probe, and propose. And the thinking is Preparation is the only aspect of a negotiation over which you have control, as Ron would used to say. And so you want to, you want to be really efficient and effective with your preparation. And so there you got to know the comps, right? Like, just like you would never buy a house without knowing what that house sold for before and what your neighbor's house sold for, you certainly wouldn't be negotiating for a player or in pharma without knowing the comparables. And there's a bunch of other areas of preparation that are important, but that's a, you know, a good example, I think. The second is probing, and probing is about asking lots of questions to uncover what the other side really cares about, right? What motivates them? What do they really care about? And as we always talk about, it's beyond their positions and onto their interests. Sometimes what people say first is important to them, that might be a position, but it's really understanding why that's so important to them. It typically helps to kind of uncover the real needs. And then finally, making proposals in a way that maximizes your objectives but satisfies the other side. So the 3 Ps are really kind of— that's the piece that we do in every negotiation we're involved with. But then the differences are, you know, depending by industry. So obviously the biggest difference, for example, in sports and just about every other industry is how public they are. Right. So, you know, to give context, we don't typically negotiate on behalf of— we advise. But everyone that we're working with when they're doing a very important deal in sports, you know, that's going to show up in the newspaper the next day. Right? So the trade they might be working on could be leaked and could be all over ESPN one day, and the next day it'll be all over the, you know, the front page of every newspaper when some athlete signs a $250 million deal, or, you know, a very large trade is done. And so that's not the case in pharma, and so that has some adjustments, right? So for example, in sports, if you're doing a trade with a team that always leaks information, you got to be really careful and adjust your strategy. But in the pharma space, that would never happen, right? You know, no one really pays as much attention to it. So I think the public nature is the biggest difference between sports and all the others, but the rest of the principles always apply.

Yeah, I mean, you know, not to just on that subject a little bit, because as you were saying, the negotiation, because we had a lot of them, especially in football, you know, this, this, this year with, um, CD Lamb And then you had the guy from the 49ers and things of that. So let me ask you a question just on the inside tip of that. And so, 'cause like you said, a lot of things become public. And so like somebody like me can see that CeeDee Lamb don't want to sign a $28 million contract because Jefferson signed one for $38 million. You know? And so he wanted to get, So how do that, you know what I'm saying? Like, do they use the public or is that to their advantage to use the public, you know, when they negotiating contracts like that? So say like he had, or I think Marquez, right? I think he like more years on his contract, you know, on his rookie deal or whatnot. But he's seeing all these other receivers getting all this money and he's one of the top receivers, if not top 3 receivers in the league. And so he feel as though he should be getting paid as what they do, uh, what they're getting. So, so do they use the public, you know, saying opinions to, to actually try to negotiate these contracts to get what they're looking for?

Uh, you know, it's a, it's a great question and there's a lot there. The first answer is an easy one, and yes, some definitely use the public, you know, and they're very careful about leaking things, right? So what gets leaked is sometimes real, sometimes not fully real, or, you know, you may be getting, uh, shells of the truth. So that's number one. So you got to be sensitive to that. I would say generally I find agents will do more of the using of the public than teams. And I think teams in general tend to less— they tend to be a little bit more conservative that way. I think there's a lot of reasons, right? They're kind of thinking of the broader picture of the team. And so what happens is it's a closed system, right, in, in a way, right? So if you think about it you know, there's about 30 teams in every league. And so you get a reputation as a team, you know, and there's a few major power players in the agent space. What happens, you get that reputation and that affects you, right? Like in baseball, for example, you think of something called signability. And if you have an agent that always holds out and makes it very difficult to sign, then that player may get picked later in the draft because you don't want to waste your 7th overall pick for someone who's going to be, you know, egregious in their asks. Now, it's definitely gotten better because the MLB's done a lot of things, but That's an example of the agent having an impact on when a player gets picked because the team's not sure they can sign them. So perception— so that is even broader, right? It's not just that they're playing the media and leaking things, but it's also the fact that the perception of the agent or the team might impact things. So they're definitely doing it. Um, and it's just a matter of— I would say generally Ron was, was of the mind that you typically don't want to go public because if you really care about what the other side cares about, you're trying to come up with the best deal for just the two of you. The moment it becomes public, there's some uncontrollable forces at play, right? So if you and I negotiate, you're the player and I'm the team, and we're negotiating, the moment you bring in public perception and the scrutiny, it makes it harder for us to do a deal because there's all this noise. But if I really want to give you the best deal possible, we got to work through salary cap issues or, you know, year maximums in the CBA or whatever it may be. Thinking through the comps, you know, that's something else. And one last thing I'd say, just as an insider thing, that in particular in football is always key— I laugh whenever you read a total dollar deal for a number, that player's never going to see that, you know, $150 million over 7 years. The reality is 3 years he's going to get X, and then he's going to get waived, get restructured, the guaranteed money. So, you know, that's one other thing too. And so that's a race too. Agents will often use that. I got, you know, the biggest deal in sports, it's $300 million, but you know, in, in football. And now in baseball, it's— that's real, right? He's gonna get every penny no matter what happens. But that's something else to be aware of.

Hey, so, uh, I just got one more question because this, this kind of interesting to me. Uh, so, so say like you got agents, like you said, like with Ron, and, you know, I know Scott and people of that nature, you know, high, high-level agents, and they get these big dollar deals. Is it— so say like somebody like Lamar Jackson that represented himself, or like the guy that just came to Chicago, or, you know, they represent theyself. Is it better to represent yourself in some circumstances, or is it better to hire you an agent that's gonna go in there and negotiate with the team on your behalf? Because I know it could be a conflict, you know, how you deal with the player, because you know, you plan and now you gotta negotiate with them and they telling you things that you probably really don't want to hear. And you, you know, so how do that really work just, just from your insight?

Yeah. So I, I would say the way I always answer this question, I think it's a really interesting one, is that in my opinion, an agent in almost any place, an agent to buy a house and certainly a sports agent to represent you, if they are very good at your job, they're worth every penny. Right. So just to simplify, let's say that an agent is making 3% of your deal. And yeah, $250 million deal, that is a lot of money. But here's the thing. If you think about all that they do, if they're very good at what they do, I'll give you an example. Number one, you're a player and you're negotiating your own deal. The psychological toll it takes for the weeks, months, or longer that it takes while you're negotiating, it's impossible for it not to. Let's say you made $20 million in your lifetime or $10 million. And you're about to sign a $250 billion deal. That's one, is wealth. The next one is multi-generational wealth beyond, you know, that is a 10x multiple increase. So it is, of course it's going to affect you mentally. Now some thrive under the pressure, some, you know, are able to manage it, some, but some it can make them, you know, give just too much pressure. And so I think, I think that's number one. And then you get number two, all the auxiliary advice. For example, you can get insurance, and an agent would know that. And you can, you know, there's and all the negotiations about playing time and adjustment. Maybe you lower preseason work because, you know, you, you don't want to get injured, but you do it in a way that you're not holding out of camp, and so you can be managed. And the third is, if you think about this for anybody, you know, CJ, if I told you I need you to go get me $100 million, you would be able to do that with a lot more confidence than if I told you go get yourself $100 million, right? It's a lot easier because you don't feel like you're being greedy. I mean, you're, you're representing me, and I'm the best of the best, and you know, you could explain it away. And it's a lot easier for you to make the ask than it is for yourself because it's hard for you to make that big ask. You sound greedy, you feel greedy. And so what happens is, for those 3 reasons, in my opinion— now there's, you know, like anything else, any profession, there's good doctors and bad, there's good engineers and bad— but in my opinion, a very good agent, from all the experience I've had on the agent side and the team side, is absolutely worth their commission. And if they're not worth your commission, then I think you just need a better agent more than I would— I think I would represent myself. Personally.

Yeah, I, I think that's kind of, kind of hard, but you know, some people, some people do it. I know that, you know, when you do that, you put people around you like family and things of that nature. So I know that it probably can be, like you say, uh, mentally, you know, a little more difficult or, you know, different than— like you said, I think you made a good point. You said if I ask, uh, Andres Hey, Andres, go out there and get me $150 million contract. And then, or me said to myself, let me go out here and get me $150 million contract. You know, I think I'd be better off asking you to go do this, speak on my behalf because I, I know, so if I football player and you an agent and this is what you do and so there's more things in life that you know or, or about this profession that you know that I don't know. Out, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's a lot of—

and the relationship, I love that. And the relationships too. I mean, people don't— you know, you don't want to admit to that, but the reality is, if I'm very good friends with your GM and we've made some really good deals before that were fair, that were great for the player and good for the team, right? We, we worked the structure out so it gave them flexibility, but we still got the player a ton of money. That's worth a lot because under pressure, and when you're dealing with $200 million, $300 million, $400 million, there's a lot of pressure. That goes a long way. And so, you know, I love what you said there because that's the other piece too. There's relationships matter. And so it's difficult. And then there's a locker room impact. And I mean, it's a lot there. So I don't want to say, you know, I don't think they're greedy for doing it. And I love the fact that they're being thoughtful about how to capture every dollar. But the way I would describe it is this: adding an agent, if they're good, is growing the pie. I think they're able to get you more and not only in dollars, but they may be able to get you more in the sense that For example, that same agent could help, you know, shape your PR a little bit so that negotiation maybe isn't as negative. And so now you can get another sponsorship deal that you wouldn't have gotten that makes up for some of the money. And they could also potentially help you get insurance, and they could potentially, you know, like, and they help connect you with a financial advisor that can make you a lot more money, you know, and that can, you know, that's trustworthy. And so there's a lot of those things. And I think the noise, it really caught my attention, you said, is I don't think anyone understands how much noise these athletes have. I can't tell you there how many people are around them all the time, some good, some neutral, and some bad. And it is unbelievable the pressure they face. I mean, I think if anyone faced that, they would be a heck of a lot more empathetic. Like, people just think, oh, look at this player, he's being so greedy, he wants $28 million, not $30 million. You telling me that $28 million isn't good enough? And but what they don't understand is they got 15 people chirping at them every day and And they got, you know, it is unbelievable what goes on behind the scenes for these athletes.

Yeah, I mean, just, you know, just sit back in the position that I sit in and looking, you know, like I see somebody like, who was that? Antoine Walker that played for the Boston Celtics back in the day. You get all money, like you say, you know, you got this entourage around you, you got all these people. And so behind the scenes, we really don't know you know, the money you spending, you know, I like Allen Iverson back in the day, although he, whatever deal that he got where he feel to get paid, you know, from Reebok, uh, this big, this big contract. Let me ask you a question, man, because I know, uh, Big, uh, Glenn Big Dog Robinson, right? And so when he came out, he asked for $100 million, and at the time, at the growing rate, and it's just my opinion, At the growing rate, I think, uh, I believe Webber came out the year before that in '93, the number 1 pick. And it seemed as though that all the picks was coming out at that time was getting, you know, the price tag was going higher and higher. So if Webber got $85 million '93, was it wrong for the Big Dog to ask for $100 million?

So, I mean, that's, you know, I think off the cuff it's so hard to say because I think the two variables I'd look at are the comps. And you talked about, you know, Weber got the year before. But the other piece, if you think about all of these leagues, is the TV money is the big driver and you got to track what the TV rights were. I'll give an example. So, you know, now years ago, I have to look what year it is, probably 7, 8 years ago, but I can't remember exactly what year it was, '15, '16, '17, somewhere when the TV deal jumped. I mean, it's going to kind of jump a little bit again, but the NBA TV deal jumped. So that year there was more money than ever in the, in the market. So, you know, in this example, for a second, let's imagine you're Chris Webber, you got $85 the year before, and now you're Robinson the next year. I would have asked for $125. And so, you know, what am I worth? I'm worth $125 because I'm worth, you know, the increase that year to year, like every year you're getting, let's say, it's 5%, 10% more. But then let's say the CBA— well, geez, now the you know, the salary cap's up 25%, so I want a 25% boost to what happened last year. So I think, you know, if I had to oversimplify it, I'd say if I was the agent back then, I'd be looking at, you know, what's the revenues of the league, and the salary cap is kind of a good indication of that. So if it jumped, I'd be asking for more than $100 million, but if it stayed the same or barely moved, $100 million might be a little much. But again, also what's publicly being asked for and The way it's being asked are very different, right? You know, you could say it's $100 million or nothing and I'm not negotiating until you write that check. Or you could say, look, $85 million, I want $100 million. And you know, those are very different things, man.

Yeah. So yeah, man, thanks for your insight on all that. I couldn't get off that. That was fun. So, uh, Andres, man, let me ask you, so you also teach sports negotiation courses at Johns Hopkins University. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Yeah, I love it. I started, I think I just finished my 10th year. So I run a class in intercession and I enjoy it. I love being on campus. So sad. You know, we teach a lot in person or online, more in person, but we do both. But I got to admit, when we went online for COVID, you know, I didn't get as much out of it because to me it's the energy of students and, you know, the fact that they'll question everything. I enjoy it. I use this kind of as a laboratory for trying new exercises, simulations, and ideas and case studies. So I love that as well. And so for me, it's kind of a way, you know, I enjoyed kind of, you know, my university, whether it's college, you know, and then going to the graduate school along the way. And so we have it in our own backyard here. And so when I was, you know, humbly asked to do it one time and for whatever reason they keep asking me to come back, so I keep doing it. But I really enjoy it. To me, it's kind of being on campus, trying new things. And I think, you know, it's a lot of work if you do. I will say this. And I think this— I've got two young kids too, so these remind me. But I think teaching a class at any level, like I said, my two young kids, when I interact with their teachers, and then teaching at the college level, you know, I think everyone should do that once. It's like same as service industry. I've worked in the service industry, you know, I was kind of coming up in high school, because I think you— the empathy you have and your appreciation for these roles goes up dramatically. To be a really good teacher at any level takes an immense amount of effort. And I mean, it's, you know, because you could be a teacher and just kind of run the same program every year and not care at all. But to really care about your students, grade them and give them real feedback, individualize, adjust and update every year your information, and really put it— is an unbelievable amount of work. So I'm just very appreciative, I think, of, you know, whether it's at the high school level, grade school level, university level, people that do that and, and really put their heart in it because it's— it is hard work.

Man, you, you wear a lot of hats, man, because like you say, to do all that, to be a teacher, you know, so that's one thing in itself, then to do the other things that you're doing, man, I think that's pretty cool. And then like you say, you got kids yourself, so I gotta, you know, do, do the father thing, the husband thing, and this and that. So hey, so, uh, let me ask you this question. I only got a couple more questions for you, Andreas, man. Uh, I was speaking to a salesman, a salesman recently, right? And he said that anything can be negotiated. Now, in your opinion, is that true? Can anything be negotiated?

I think conceptually, I think, uh, there's nothing wrong with it. And I like the concept that I think really should open people's eyes. There's some things you don't think can be negotiated but can. Um, so that's the short. The longer is I would say it's not so much can it be negotiated, but does it make sense? So here's the example I'd give you. So you go to the convenience store, you buy a pack of gum, and the pack of gum is $1.50. I mean, so, you know, the cashier has no skin in the game. They don't care if they sell that, you know, pack of gum or not. They're getting paid hourly. They got no skin in the game. They don't care. And it's $1.50 total. So not to minimize that, $1.50 is real money. But, you know, if you get 10% off, that's $0.15, probably not going to change your life. And it'd be very difficult. You're gonna have some people behind you probably mad that you're holding up the whole line to save 15 cents, and you're very unlikely to negotiate a better deal. So that's probably where it doesn't make sense, right? But then all of a sudden you start to think about, you know, what I do like is inspires people to negotiate their salaries, or I do inspire people to negotiate when they're buying a house or leasing a place, or they're buying a car, or in some places that you may not think, right? And so there's You know, I'll give you another example. So we've had, I mean, some good luck because we're healthy. We've had some bad luck with, uh, you know, some like, uh, we had a, you know, some years ago we lived in a row home in Baltimore and our house, a neighbor's house burnt down and basically destroyed ours with fire and smoke. And we had to rebuild our house. That's another example that a lot of people get private adjusters because they just don't have to deal with the issue. But you got to negotiate for everything there. Even the good insurance companies, they're trying to save every penny. So that's an example that if you told the, you know, average person, they wouldn't be thinking about— you got to be negotiating with the contractors, with the insurance company all the time. And if you don't, you know, the person that doesn't is going to get 10, 20, 30% less, right? And so I think that's an example, I think, that, you know, to inspire folks that you got to think about whether it makes sense, right? The dollar is big enough that it makes sense. Is this something that— is the other person willing to engage, right? If they're a cashier, you know, they don't care, they got no skin in the game, the dollars are too small. But I think that's what I like about that. You know, everything's negotiable. Someone said that to one of our facilitators, and they— that's, you know, same thing. And, uh, and that's what I would say to folks is that keep in mind, like, there's, you know, if the dollars are big enough, you should at least think about it. Is this something I should be negotiating? And negotiating doesn't always mean more dollars. I can't tell people enough, like, negotiating salary, they want more salary. What about paid time off? What about 401 matching? What about your title? What about how many days you're in the office? What about your car allowance. I mean, all these things. So I think there's, you know, that's the thing that I like about that statement.

Okay, real quick, uh, Andrea, negotiating no trade clauses, and because a lot of people don't have that in their contracts, but a few that had a no trade con— uh, no trade clauses in there. How important is that, you know what I'm saying, as far as the negotiation side of it? To have for an athlete to have that in a contract?

I think the short answer on that is if you're giving your hometown or the team that you want to play for a sweetheart deal, you should get it, period, almost regardless of what your level is, right? If I'm representing a player, whether they're a $30 million guy taking $22 to leave Caps for a better player, or a $7 million guy taking the minimum wage because they want to win the championship, I'd want no trade clause because you're getting a better deal because I want to be there and I don't want you to be able to move me. But I would say otherwise, I, I mean, I, as a team, I wouldn't do it, right? I disagree with it because the reality is, you know, players both ways are assets. And again, if you think more in the NBA than anywhere else, one player can make a difference. They'll go wherever they want, they'll sit whenever they want, you know. So the, there's a lot of power being the player, and I get that. I mean, their services are particularly unique and special, but what happens is that's, that's a protective mechanism. And so I, I would be very leery of giving it away ever again unless, look, if I'm pitching CJ, I want you to be here with the White Sox and I want you to be here for the last 3 years of your career. You know, we can't pay you $10 million, which you're getting offered elsewhere. We can only give you $5 million a year. Well, if you take that deal, you should get a no trade. You left $5 million in the year on the table because you want to play for the White Sox. So I shouldn't have the right to trade. But if you're getting the max deal in the NBA, you know, I know the leverage is a different story. Should you get it? What do I feel? If you're the, you know, LeBron James always has plus-ones with a player option and no trade. And, you know, if you're one of the greatest players in history, you can do whatever you want to do. And it's a matter of, you know, what team is able and willing to offer that.

Yeah, like you said, that gives you, that gives the player a lot of leverage too, because we've seen it with LeBron over the years, a lot of leverage over a lot of teams. So my last question, just really enjoyed this, um, So lastly, man, tell us about the national media outlets that you contribute to and how your expertise in negotiation has been featured.

So, um, yeah, I, uh, we do a little bit of everything. So we do some things in the space we work in. So there's, you know, magazines around sales and procurement that we're typically in. So like, uh, in trainings, we do a lot of work like the training industry or Training Magazine or Selling Power. So these are kind of more publications in those spaces, the industry publications. And then kind of more broadly, you know, we're fortunate, we're often featured, whether it's, you know, in the kind of local news, you know, nearby for us, we're headquartered in Baltimore, Good Morning DC or a place like that, that will get coverage, but also the CNBCs of the world and Forbes of the world that contribute to Forbes from time to time and on a council there. And so a little bit of everything. And so it's just kind of a matter of what resonates Recently a little bit less in sports, but, you know, often was contributing to Sports Business Journal. Same, a lot of the questions we talked about today, right? So when baseball was looking like it might be a strike or a lockout, we would get some questions or, you know, there's a lot of interesting things. One of the things I like the most is people are interested in sports and you can learn a lot from that, right? There's a lot to learn from these negotiations about managing emotion, team leadership. You can learn from it in sports, you can apply it in your job. And so I think a lot of sports publications kind of, you know, rely on that. It's a great way for people to learn something that's practical. In a way that they'll understand and be interested by.

So man, like I said, I appreciate you coming on today, man. Uh, as far as the book, we talked about your book. Where can we, uh, find your book at and go buy it?

So, uh, you know, it, uh, when we published the book a few years ago, I found out just how big Amazon was as a huge amount of sales. But I wouldn't be doing all the other stores a plug, you know, if I didn't say that it's also in Barnes Noble and all these other bookstores. And so hopefully, you know, physical bookstores don't go away. I love books and I love bookstores. So I try as much as I can to continue to support them, but certainly on Amazon. And that's where, you know, a lot of those sales go. And then oftentimes folks are buying them as a way to kind of get us to do keynote speeches. So I wrote it with my partner Jeff Cochran, and Sean Diggins is a PhD who co-wrote it with us and ran a lot of the research. So Jeff and I will do a lot of keynotes kind of around the topic that we talked about, the The 4 steps. And, and so that's kind of another common way to bring us in to speak to organizations.

So, so what can we, what can we follow you at, man? Your social media handles, are you on Facebook, uh, Instagram, LinkedIn?

So, uh, I am on LinkedIn, uh, not as active as I should be, but I'd say the best place is probably our website and our company LinkedIn. Our website has a lot of resources, so shapirenegotiations.com.. And then if you look up our company on LinkedIn, that's probably the best place for all of our blog content and resources on there. So that's probably the best place, probably better than my personal one, which like I said, is, is not as active as, as it should be. And as much as our marketing team would like me to be.

Oh man, that's cool, man. I know, busy man. You got wearing a lot of hats, man, you know? So I, I get it. We time, you know, to be doing things, you know, on, on that level, especially when you got a whole lot of other stuff on the table. So is there anything that you would like to share with us in leaving, uh, entrance, man?

Uh, you know, it's a great question. I think we've covered a lot. It's, I feel like normally I might summarize some of the biggest takeaways. I might start with the 4 steps, but I think it's been a pleasure. I think, uh, you know, I'd almost go back to me for the, for the theme is, uh, what you said earlier is you never know, you never say never, you never know where things are gonna end up. And so I think one of the things that I've learned from kind of a lot of my mentors is, having that flexibility, you know, to kind of know when to take advantage of opportunities and knowing that you can never close the door on anything. And the other word you brought up, kind of being humble, you know, in a sense that I think I was surprised that the more successful people I worked with— not all, right, some of them are as arrogant as could be— but a lot of them were unbelievably humble. And I was so appreciative of that, right, that early on in my career they'd give me the light of day. And so, you know, I love what you're doing, kind of peeling You know, it's, you know, we're kind of pulling back the curtain and the stories behind folks because like you said, you know, I was born in Venezuela. I would never have expected, you know, any of the things that happened. And I'm very appreciative and grateful where I am. But I think the humility to know how many other people along the way had, you know, a big impact on you and being appreciative of them, paying it forward. But also, you know, that doesn't mean you got to cross your fingers and hope someone's there to help you. You got to kind of You know, manufacture some of your own luck and some of your own goodwill.

You got— hey, so I appreciate you coming on the show. Hey, like he said, go get the book, man. Check out his website. You can find all their personal stuff on the website, a lot of resources, uh, supiernegotiation.com, I believe you said it was, or institution in there. Okay. Hey, go check out the book. Go grab the book from Amazon. Way, 4-Step Process, with my man Andreas Lawrence. Hey man, I appreciate you coming on the show. You have been listening to the CJ Moneyway Show with your host CJ Moneyway. We out of here. Peace.