Secure Act 2.0 Explained on Roth Conversions

Welcome to another edition of the what's Next Retirement Podcast with Craig Weir. Life is full of transitions that have a financial impact now and in your future. When finances are affected, there are always questions to ask and choices to make. As an independent certified financial planner for well over 30 years, Craig has helped Americans make decisions that give them their best financial futures. The experiences with so many clients has given him a unique perspective to help with what's next for you as you navigate the unknowns of your own life. What's next? Answers to the retirement issues on your mind.

Well, hey there. Welcome to another episode of what's Next in Retirement. This is Craig Weir. I'd love to come to you with these podcasts and these short presentations to just kind of give you some, some information, give you some advice to some degree and how to think about a lot of the different aspects of not only retirement, but Roth conversions, taxes, and how all these elements kind of come together in your life to give you the opportunity to have a much greater retirement and one that's hopefully more free of income tax. So today I'm going to cover kind of a different little subject in that I'd like to be able to help you to kind of understand impact that the new Secure Act 2.0 has had on Roth conversions. So spoiler alert, it really didn't hurt anything. What it really did is it gave us a lot of reasons to really accelerate what you're doing, to feel good about doing it and to really get after it and make some things really happen for yourself because there's an incredible amount of taxes to be saved. So I'm going to kind of go through some of the highlights of what we're going to share in this particular episode and I want to show share just some of the applicable highlights of the Secure Act 2.0. I want to kind of talk a little bit about how should you respond to those changes and when should you respond. And I'll give you the kind of the bottom line impact of a sample strategy that we put together a year ago or something like that of a client that came in that we helped out just so you can see the notable impact that this can have on your financial life if you get it right. And then I want to talk about the most urgent issue facing Roth conversions. And then we'll talk about also I'll give you a few frequently asked questions that I get a lot about the subject. So maybe if you have some questions, my guess is that you're probably going to have questions similar to other people so I'll do a couple of those toward the end when we get there. So let me just share my journey with you. It started 13, 14 years ago. A guy that I like to call Mr. Leonard, just to protect his privacy. He came into my office one day after listening yet another week to a radio broadcast that I did down in the Houston area. And he came into me and he said, craig, I retired at age 60 from a major oil company. I'm 70 and a half years old. That million dollars that I had in my 401k is now worth 2 million. And I just had to take my first required min minimum distribution. He said, My first RMD was $80,000. He said, I don't need 80,000 bucks. I said, well, Mr. Leonard, that's kind of the deal you made with the government when you save taxes all those years, and now it's just time to pay the piper. Which, incidentally, is the impetus for the title of my first book, where that Came From. Just a little side note. So as we got to talking, he said, yeah, I get that, Craig. He said, I've heard that now from three different financial advisors and my cpa. They said, I've done a little bit of napkin math, and I think you guys are missing it. I think there's more to it than this. And he said, because now all of a sudden, 85% of my Social Security is going to be taxed. And now in addition to that, my CPA tells me my Medicare premiums are going to go through the roof in a year or two. He said, so I'll pay you to help me figure out the answer to this. I said, well, look, you don't need to pay me. Let me just go figure out what the right answer is, because if it's good for you, it's probably good for a whole lot of my clients. So I did that. And over the course of the next month, what I discovered was shocking because he was the first person who ever forced me into actually doing the math. And he hit me at a right time in my business where I had the time and the energy and the desire to actually go figure out the question and to kind of challenge the status quo. And here's what I learned. If you're an IRA millionaire, income taxes are going to be your single largest annual expense for the rest of your life. Not travel like you had hope, not entertainment like you desire. It's going to be income taxes, folks. Those large IRAs are going to cause a significant challenge in your life. And I'm going to demonstrate some of that today. But the facts of this are really undeniable and they're totally quantitatively verifiable if you just really wanted to go do the math on it. But if you're an IRA millionaire and your financial advisor or your CPA are telling you not to convert, or they're telling you to stop short because of a Social Security threshold or of a particular tax bracket, then I will just submit they're great at what they do, but they are simply not up to speed with Roth conversions and they're not experienced with this. The industry paradigms hold all of them back as they did me for many years. So some of those very widely accepted but false ideas that were that have to do with Roth conversions have to be dealt with first so that you can see the impact of the secure act on your life. And so for those of you that are watching this podcast, as opposed to listening to it up on your screen, I've listed the four of the biggest false beliefs, or I call them false paradigms that the industry has and that you read about and that you may have yourself. So the first one is this false idea that you should delay distributions as long as possible. I'm going to let compounding work for me and I'm going to pay taxes as late as I possibly can. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that from people that have called in to talk to us about helping them develop a strategy. The problem is, while that sounds logical, it actually works against you and you'll end up wasting. If you're an IRA millionaire, you'll waste easily a million dollars of taxes that are going to go out the door. The problem is with all, with most of these paradigms, you have enough money that retirement isn't going to be impacted. And so you likely will never know that you didn't have the best strategy unless you ran across our material or you got you found a way to get the optimal strategy, whether we did it for you, whether you figured out yourself. But in order for you to get the optimal strategy, you have to totally change all of the preconceived ideas that you may have about what you want to do and what you think is best for you, because the math will oftentimes prove you wrong. The second false idea is that if is that you shouldn't convert if you're going to be in a lower tax bracket in the future. It's not just a tax bracket now or tax bracket future issue. I was reading an article by One of the thought leaders in the financial planning industry, and his whole point of this article about Roth conversions was that it comes down to what do you believe about future tax rates? And that's absolutely false because of the excessive amount of taxable income that you're going to receive over the rest of your lifetime and the ensuing damage that does to taxing everything else in your life and causing higher Medicare premiums. That's the wrong metric to look at. The other, the third one that I've listed here is that you should never convert at a higher tax bracket than you're currently in. Folks, I'm here to tell you that that is also just a bad, bad way to look at it. The only way we found we get the maximum amount of tax avoidance and best net worth for our clients is to go up at least one, if not two or three tax brackets so that you take control of the timing of all this and you pay taxes at the time that's best for you instead of being relegated by the tables that are provided by the irs. And like I said, all this stuff is quantitatively verifiable. And if you have a spreadsheet that says something different, then either you're not an IRA millionaire or you're spending a significant amount of money out of your IRA each year, or you just haven't considered all the elements. The fourth reason or the fourth false idea or paradigm is that Roth IRAs are going to be changed by Congress and they're going to lose their tax benefit. And that's a lot of what we're going to talk about today. That and then the other three will kind of flow into it. But as I've already kind of tipped my hand, The Secure Act 2.0 actually is much in favor of Roth IRAs. And there really are two Roth relevant points of this new Secure Act. The first is that RMD's required minimum distributions have now been delayed. So age 73 is the new age 72. Meaning if you're age 72 and age 2023 or later, your RMD age is now age 73. And if you're going to be age 74 in 2033 or later, your RMD is now age 75. So if you're 64 years old or younger, you're not going to have to take RMDs until you're 75 years old. So what do you see and read all over the Internet about this now? What are the financial media telling you, man? Happy dance. Good times are here because you get to kick the can of paying taxes down the road another year, which is exactly the wrong idea. You want to pay the taxes sooner. I'm going to talk about what a gift this Secure Act 2.0 is in just a minute. But you want to get the taxes paid sooner. You don't want to kick the can. The can and down the road is what got you into the position of having all these taxes. You've been not paying taxes your entire career and that was not a mistake, by the way. You probably saved taxes by contributing to your 401 plan or your workplace plan at a higher tax savings than your current rate is today, even if you're in one of the higher tax brackets. The second Roth relevant point of the Secure act is that Roth accounts are boldly embraced. And this speaks directly to this concern that Congress is going to come in and change all the rules, right? Well, let me tell you what they've just done. What they've just done is said, Look, Roth 401ks are a good thing. You no longer have required RMDs out of a Roth 401k like you do in an IRA or a regular 401k account. See, if you left your workplace and you just left the money there, if you had money in a Roth 401K, you would have to take required distributions out of it. Even if it's still sitting up in there now the Roth account looks more like a Roth ira. Previously you would have had to take that money out of the Roth 401K, roll it out into a regular Roth IRA to be able to not have to take RMDs and distribute that tax free money. So that's a really good thing. The other thing is that catch up provisions that exist within 401k plans are actually increased and in such a way where employers now can make matching and non elective contributions to designated Roth accounts. So not only is Congress saying, hey, you can do more in the way of catch up provisions, but now they're saying you can actually do these and your employer can make matching and non elective contributions into Roth. And certain employees based on income have to direct all their catch up provisions to Roth accounts. So these acts that Congress just has taken are not really the direction of some movement to get rid of all the benefits of Roth accounts as some people may fear. And for them to come back at a later point and to make such significant changes that some people are afraid of would be political suicide on their part. I mean, one thing we can trust about our politicians is that they want to get elected next time they run. Well, you're not going to get elected by smoke and mirrors and pull the rug out from underneath people. And I know, I know you're sitting here saying, yeah, but they kind of changed the rules on stretch IRAs. Yes, they did, but that wasn't as dramatic as saying you can't do IRAs anymore and that it's all going to be taxable at one time. They just changed the feature. They changed an element. It's not anywhere near as high level as somebody taking away your Roth ira. So for my money, I'm not worrying about it. I don't believe that that can happen. There will be changes, of course, but I don't think it's something at all to be concerned about that they're going to actually do away with it. All right, so what do you do with this? Right, you've been given this. I think it's a gift by Congress. It's not a, it's not a huge gift, but man, you know, gifts from Congress don't happen often. So jump on it. And the gift is in the delay. You have another year or more to get the conversion done without the risk of an RMD during your conversion strategy. See, when you, when you hit RMD age, you have to take the RMD first before you do a conversion. So if you don't get the amount of your total converted before your RMD age starts, then you can't convert all of it, number one. And number two, you have to pay tax on the RMD first before you do it. So the optimal conversion strategy, however, is really not dependent on your RMD age as I've been talking about. It's really a calculated and an optimized strategy. Your RMD age certainly factors into it, but we have a lot of people that, I mean, their conversion strategy lasts for a few years beyond when they start taking RMDs, because to do it faster would mean that their net worth would go down more than it, more than it should or even has to at all by doing Roth conversions. So if you're focusing on, well, gosh, I'm 70 and now I have to take RMDs in just three years. I probably am too late. That's, that's, you're not too late. There's plenty of time if you're, if you're thinking, okay, well, I'm 65, so now I've got an extra two or three years before RMD age. Also the wrong way to look at it. You want the rest strategy for you, regardless of RMDs. That is an, that is a data point, but it is not the target, nor is a tax bracket the target, nor is the Social Security threshold the target. The target is how much of my total should I convert, at what rate or pace should I do it, which defines how much dollars happens and dictates the tax bracket. But it's not on some pseudo line in the sand that has nothing to do with the optimized mathematics of the program. A lot of people say, well, okay, I'm gonna, I got all year to get this done, so I'm just gonna wait to the end of the year and get it taken care of. Have any of you guys ever built a custom built home? Was that process one that you went out to a subdivision or found your piece of land and the next day just started building your house? No, it wasn't. It was one of the largest investments that you probably made in your lifetime into a piece of property. But you got a, you took the time to design it first. You maybe worked with an architect and that architect put together a blueprint and then you found a builder and then you got bids on what the costs were and then you fit. Then you, if you did it yourself, you went out and you found subcontractors, you got insurance, you got, maybe if you didn't pay cash for, you got some temporary financing. So there were things that had to occur. If somebody would have said to you, you have to build this house tomorrow, you'd have made a lot of mistakes, you'd have figured it out, you'd have got a house built, but you'd have made a lot of mistakes. You'd have moved in the house and you said, darn it, I wish we had taken some more time with this or that, folks. We're talking about developing a long term tax strategy with a significant part of your financial net worth. Why would you wait till November or December to come up with a game plan? A blueprint happens before you implement conversions. And a blueprint gives you clarity to what your goals are and what the course of action should be before you act. And a blueprint is going to spotlight specific strengths that you have in your financial dealings. And it's going to also put a spotlight on weaknesses and, but overall, that blueprint is going to help you with the timing decisions, help you with how much decisions, help you with what tax bracket decisions. It's going to help you with a host of other things too. That probably as for another presentation or another podcast, right? But Your Roth conversion strategy is the blueprint to a more tax free future. So do it sooner rather than later and just don't procrastinate it. You know, getting that blueprint now is going to prepare you for the right timing of your conversions for this year. If you know what Your plan is 30 days from now, then no matter what markets do, you're prepared. No matter what Congress does, you're prepared. No matter what happens in your tax return, you're prepared. You know what your parameters are, you know where the curbs in the road are. You understand how much is too much and how much is too little. And now you have time to react. Also getting your that blueprint done sooner rather than later, you'll know how much and for how long. And that gives you insight into a variety of other things that I've been nibbling around the sort the edges of the timing of your Social Security, if you haven't already both started it, it'll give you an advance awareness of what your Medicare premium changes are going to be and it'll help you with cash flow and budgeting needs and a lot, just a lot of different things. But as much as anything this blueprint we found that with the clients that come to us to have us do this for them, it highlights specific blind spots they may have like converting too fast or too slow or maybe an inefficient game plan for distributing income over the rest of their lifetime from their assets. Or maybe it points to a greater need for estate planning. I mean IRAs are a really big terrible estate planning tool to most attorney. Most estate planning attorneys telling so you have the window now that you can prepare, so why don't you do it now as opposed to wait? Right. But there is one really urgent issue that I want to talk about and it's a big deal and it's an urgent issue that has specifically do with Roth conversions. It has to do with a lot of things in our life, but the way that it impacts Roth conversions is pretty pronounced. See, the most urgent issue is the Tax Cut Job act going away in 2017. I mean it started in 2017. It sunsets December 31, 2025. All the tax rates that exist today go back up to what they were before. So that means it's going to cost more tax for more years. The longer you wait, you take your million or 2 million or 3 million now and you wait another three or four years for some other pseudo event to occur. Now you got a lot more money to convert, you have shorter period of time before RMDs and you got higher tax rates to boot. So for those of you that are watching this as opposed to listening, what I'm displaying on your screen now is the actual change in the tax rates between now and January 1st of 2026. And you'll notice that for most of us mere mortals, you're looking at a 14 to 25% increase in the total taxes that you pay because of this sunset. For higher income people, you still have 3 to 7% increase in the amount of tax that you're going to pay. Well, 7% more on a, on a two and a half million dollar IRA is another $150,000 of taxes that you're going to waste if you wait. So that's part of why it's a big deal that you get doing something. And I've got just kind of summary statistics on a sample case. I just call this Chuck and Kathy sample because they've become kind of the standard sample that I like to show people. And they're real life people. They retired in their mid-60s. They just came to us, they just retired. They had about a million and a half in Pre tax accounts, 401ks is what they had. And they had very little savings outside the company plan. Which is why I like to use them. Because one of the myths out there is that you should never convert if you have to pay the taxes from within your Iraq. And that's just not real life. There's still plenty of opportunity if the only resources you have are to pay the taxes from within your ira. Chuck and Kathy could live almost entirely off their Social Security and pensions. And both their parents lived into their mid-80s. So if they did nothing and we use about a 5% rate of return on what we assumed were going to happen in their investments, their total lifetime required minimum distributions were going to be almost three and a half million dollars over their lifetime. Their projected taxes over their life. Just assuming that tax rates didn't do anything other than what's already written into the tax code, which includes the sunset of this tax cut Job Act. Their lifetime over their taxes were going to be about a million and a half and they were going to leave enough money sitting in their IRAs, their kids are going to have another $900,000 to somehow dilute mom and dad's IRAs to pay the taxes over the next several years their Medicare premiums are going to be about $367,000. So that's what their story was. So if they'd have just gone out and done their fancy Excel spreadsheet and come up with their best guess and stayed at the top of their current tax bracket, they would have realized about a $459,000 tax bracket benefit. Had they done the math to calculate that, they would have felt really good about it. Most people maybe won't do the math to calculate it, but they know they're saving money and they're feeling good. Their RMDs went down to a million three instead of three and a half million. Their taxes they saved over their lifetime were going to be about $220,000. And they would have saved the kids about 240,000 of taxes over their lifetime. I mean, as beneficiaries. And their Medicare premiums dropped about $80,000. So not a bad deal, right? I think we could all agree if you can say $459,000, not bad. But look, the savings during their lifetime was only a couple hundred thousand dollars of taxes and $80,000 of Medicare. We can do better than that. We went to work for them and we found that optimal strategy and the math on getting this not hard. It's understanding all the 20 different things that are impacted. Once you change one variable when about Roth conversions. So you have to have a good understanding of those, then you have to be able to lose your blinders of all the things you think you already know about this to just do a very exhaustive calculations in a variety of different tempos. And then you need to be able to think outside the box of just, just tax brackets and think about other things. So we did that for them. And for those of you that can see the screen, you'll see that their RMDs went from three and a half million down to just $38,000. Their lifetime taxes, we picked them up a million dollars of savings during their life and almost $900,000 of savings for the kids dropped their Medicare premiums $145,000. And so they had total tax avoidance of $1.8 million instead of their current tax bracket. What they're comfortable doing 459,000. If this doesn't point to the obvious, that there is an optimal sweet spot for every person out there and it is different for everyone. If this doesn't point to it, then, folks, there's nothing I can say to you. You've already made up your mind to just get it wrong. And I don't, I don't offer that in an arrogant way. I offer that in a way to wake you up so that whatever you have to do, you go get this money back from the doorstep of the irs, you've left it on. And if I have to shock you a little bit by a little bit of a terse tone, then so be it. But this is real and it is big. And if you think it's not and you're an IRA millionaire, then odds are you're wrong about something and you have adopted a paradigm that is false. So I trademarked a term called Rothology. And it really is just my recognition that getting the right conversion strategy is a combination of getting the science of financial planning correct and getting the art of financial planning, in other words, the right way to implement what the science tells you. And we've gone so far as to develop proprietary tools that allow us to display that in ways that our advisors all across the country that work for us can really relate to. And in a way where our clients can see the information in user friendly ways instead of geek speak all the time. And yet we provide all the geek speak for all the geeks that we work with. Perfect candidates for Roth conversions usually have around a million dollars IRAs in their household. Sometimes you can sneak it down to around 750,000, but normally it takes around a million dollars to make it really significantly worth your while to do this. Worth your while means is it worth me paying the taxes over the next several years instead of just letting the money grow. So if you're under age 59 and you have large non IRA savings accounts and brokerage accounts, you're probably a good candidate if you've got the million. If you're between 59 and age 74 and you got the million, you're probably a great candidate. You're really the sweet spot of most the people that we've seen great success. And if you're over 75, you're probably not going to see a tremendous amount of tax benefit for you. But if it's important to you to leave your kids not holding the bag for a tremendous amount of tax that they're just going to have to dilute your life savings that you left to them with, then you're probably a good candidate also. Well, how big a deal is this? Well, our average IRA millionaire client avoids $3.2 million of taxes. That's the most up to date numbers. That average client also saves at least $80,000 of Medicare premiums. And most of the time it's more than that. But you know, most of our game plans we develop are plans that occur over somewhere between four and 10 years. That's not a bias on our part. That's just how the math tends to work out. So if you go figure out based on what you're doing on your conversions, how long is it going to take? And if it's 10 years or more, you're probably going too slow. If it's 10 years, that doesn't mean that you nailed it. And if it's seven years, that doesn't mean that you nailed it. The only way you'll know that you nailed it is you did the math for every variety of opportunity out there and you optimized it to make sure that you got the biggest amount that you could that's available. And most of our clients actually in a number of years see actually a higher projected real net worth. By real I mean considering the fact that taxes are still going to be owed by your spouse through RMDs or by your heirs over time. So, you know, a lot of times I give this information out and people email and call with questions. So I'll handle a couple of the big questions. Do I need a CPA to help me once I have a strategy? It depends on your own understanding of taxes. I talked to a guy last week that was using the most prevalent software out there, which the name will remain nameless, but. So I don't get lawsuits and defamation and all those kinds of things. But that software didn't get it right. The software didn't understand that Once you're over 59 and a half years old, there are no penalties for taking 100% of the amount that you converted out immediately if you need to. So those commercially available tax things, you know, probably aren't going to work. So a good CPA will make sure you pay your taxes on time and will make sure that you pay the estimated taxes next year on time. And to me that's worth, that's worth having a good CPA involved to get you set on the right course of action. Talked to another guy a week before last that was just too frugal. I guess I'll use the nice word to go pay a cpa. And he ended up talking to me about the fact that, well, I didn't make estimated payments like I probably should have. Well, his penalties alone are going to, are going to be well within what he would have paid a CPA to just get it right the first time and have some accountability to it. So look, folks, don't cheapskate this. We're talking about your life savings in a lot of people's case, don't find the cheapest way out, find the way that gets you the best outcome. It's going to be whole lot money better spent. Whether it's paying a CPA to get it right or paying our firm to help you with the right game plan. This is your life savings. Now is not the time to step over hundred dollar bills to pick up dimes on the road. Should my Roth strategy include more than just this year's plan? Yes. You should be able to answer three questions. How much of the total should I convert? How much each year for the rest of my life should I convert? And what is my optimal tax bracket? All those things we provide our clients. So you should be able to get the same thing. And if they're telling you well, stop at a tax bracket, stop at a IRMAA threshold, or you make too much money, you shouldn't do conversions then. They just don't understand this. You need to go find somebody else that does understand it. What other costs should I incur when implementing a conversion strategy is another question that we get right. You don't need to buy financial products to do Roth conversions. You just simply open up a Roth account at the existing custodian if that's where you want the money to be. When you're done with this, you don't need to buy annuities, although you can, but you don't need to pay commissions to do any of that. Annuities could have a certain that you own, could have a surrender fee. You need to be aware of that. You don't have to buy life insurance to do a Roth conversion, although some people may be very well served to buy life insurance from a good financial professional who knows how to set those things up the right way as a partial use. So instead of putting money into the Roth, you maybe would put it into a life insurance policy instead. And I'm agnostic on that. I think every situation is different. My wife and I have a large life insurance policy that we used because we're self employed to create a kind of a pension, if you will, for us. But it's not the best for everybody by any stretch. No additional management fees need to be charged to your account because you do Roth conversions. You need to know that you could have a capital gains tax off of your non IRA accounts that you maybe would use to pay the taxes with. But look, the highest rate of capital gains is only 20% and the amount of capital gains that you recognize does not count against your tax bracket. That's a really important point that most people do not know. So I would rather pay a 20% capital gain to distribute assets that are just going to continue to create a higher tax for me later because of dividends and other capital gains that could occur. I'd rather pay that 20% than to go in and pay 24, 32 or 35 or 37% by taking extra money out of my IRA. A lot of people balk at using that non IRA money for two reasons. They don't understand the five year rules once you're over 59 and a half. And they don't put into perspective that that capital gains tax is a lot less than taking the money out of the ira. So when would you need to reconsider a Roth conversion strategy? So let's say you found the right strategy today. Is it forever? Maybe. But maybe not. So if your marital status changes, if you go from single to married or married to single, that's going to cause a real big change. And there's something called the widow's trap that I talk about a lot that puts a real reason why you want to get this done sooner rather than later. Another reason would be the balance of your accounts drastically change. If a dramatic increase or decrease in the stock market or your investment balances happens, then it might cause you to need to amend your game plan. And if the tax situation change, I mean, if Congress comes along and they make dramatic changes to the tax structure that are not already included in your calculations, then you maybe want to take another look at it. So my firm, the name of our firm is Q3 Advisors. And Roth Conversions is really Roth Conversions is our primary activity, but it's wrapped in a wrapper of comprehensive fiduciary financial planning that we do for our clients that want it and need it. We begin our relationships typically by doing the Roth conversion strategies for people. But we often are asked to stay on a very low retainer basis because we're fiduciary only people. We don't want to manage money. We don't have any products to sell. We only provide advice to people and put all the pieces of the puzzle together in order to do that. In every state and in our nation, we are registered investment advisors. The term would connotate that we manage money and we don't. But we have to have the right certifications and licenses and regulatory oversight to be able to do what we do. So if you have more questions about this, you know that I've got a lot of resources on my website and the website is Craig Weir Wear. Com. But if you know that you need some help, then we'd love to. I'd love for you to set up a time to talk to one of our CFPs. If you already have your game plan and you're satisfied with it and you just want us to tell you you're doing a great job, I'll just tell you now you're doing a great job. But please don't take our CFP's time away from people that really want the help. We get a lot of phone calls of people that just want us to validate that their data is right and they've already made up their mind it is right. And so they're not going to. They oftentimes really want to hear that it's not. But if you genuinely are interested in finding the right path and you want to talk about how our fees work and what we can do for you, and maybe see a detailed example of what we do, if you're genuinely interested in engaging somebody to help you, then schedule a call. There'll be a link in the show notes below the podcast. Or you can. You can schedule a call and find out more about what we're all about. And that first call is complimentary. We just want to help you figure out if you're a good candidate for accelerated Roth conversions. I've given you the qualifications here, but there could be some things about how much you're spending or your charitable intent, those kinds of things that could change it. And we ought to be able to tell you why you're a good candidate. And if you are a good candidate, then we would talk about one of our consulting services that maybe could be of some help to you. So I hope this information has been helpful to you. I appreciate you joining in and I hope that you'll kind of smash the button to subscribe to the podcast. So next time information like this comes out, you'll be able to be one of the first to know. Share it with people around you. Let them know as well. Certainly you got somebody else in your life that's got a million bucks or so that you think sitting in an iron that maybe needs some help. So thanks again and we'll talk to you on the next episode. Take care.

Investment Advisory Services offered through Q3 Advisors this presentation is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended to be individualized financial, tax or investment advice.