Military Working Dogs, New Handlers, and more with Phil, a retired US Navy Kennel Master

This is The Source Podcast, everything working dogs. And I got Phil on with me today. I'm gonna let Phil introduce himself, but you know, it's great just to have conversations, right? And I think that's what draws me to doing this every week is the conversations, because I learn so much on these conversations, different perspectives and different ways. And when I quit learning, I'll quit doing what I do, because I think that's the thing that's carried me throughout my whole career, is I've always been open to learn from everybody. I've never been a subscriber to one way. And I try to teach our, especially our young trainers, that same thing. Learn from everybody, use it, put it in your tool bag, and maybe you can help somebody else out later, but also know the reasons why. So I'm excited about this conversation. So Phil, take a minute, introduce yourself, and of course tell us, you know, a little bit about where your background is and, and, and what you're doing now.

My name is Phil Kelman. I joined the U.S. Marine Corps in '97. I was in the infantry, got out in 2000 before 9/11 and joined the Navy because I wanted to be a SEAL. Got med dropped out of that. So they sent me to be a cop and then 9/11 happened and I ended up standing gate for the next 3 years. And then one day I looked over at some guys and I'm like, who are those guys? Now those are the dog guys. Why don't I ever see them standing gate? Oh, dogs don't stand gates. I was like, how do I get that job? So then I did my kennel support and I got following orders to K-9 and that was in 2004. So I went to K-9 school. A year later I was in Iraq, in Abu Ghraib Prison, which was after the scandal. So I saw the tail end of it. I saw the handlers that actually went to court martial. Then I came home for a while, went overseas. Did a few more tours. In 2011, went to Afghanistan. I did a year there, about 30 miles west of Kandahar in a province called Basimgar. And then came home from that. And then I started my leadership journey as supervisor, becoming a kennel master. And then I retired in, out of Washington, DC as a regional kennel master of the Washington, DC Naval District. And that was in 2020. So I stayed canine for 17 years.

Man, you know, amazing how time flies for one, right? You look back at your career and everything you just told us in a nutshell, but that time, I know looking forward, it seems like an eternity, but now looking back, I just can imagine that time just flying by to where you are today.

Some duty stations flew by, some not so much. That year in Bahrain was really long.

Okay. Okay. And you know, you've had this long career, Phil, and, uh, I think what's most interesting is how people come together in the canine industry. I remember this was probably 3 years ago. Well, right before COVID so a little bit longer than that. Me and another trainer, we were in Dubai in the desert having a meal with some, some people from, um, Dubai. and I told him, I said, it's just amazing to me where dogs take us. And it's— never would've imagined this leaving law enforcement and getting into this realm and just being able to have the opportunity and the blessing to travel the world. And I say it's because of dogs and it is absolutely crazy. And I say all that to say this, how I even met you was pretty crazy.

Yeah.

It wasn't like our paths crossed on purpose. Well, they sort of did because, you know, I just remember the day you came into the office and I was sitting in the, actually sitting in the store, knocking out some paperwork and you come in and said, hey, I want to get involved and I want to volunteer. And I said, nah, I don't think so. That's not what we do. Right. And so could you share that story a little bit?

Well, my son was going to go to school about 30 minutes away and I definitely didn't want to drive 120 miles a day to drop him off and pick him up. And so Custom K9 Unlimited was about a 5-10 minute drive from his school. And I needed to hang out in the area for 5 hours until he got off. And being a disabled veteran, I don't work. So there really isn't much to do in that town. But I mean, what am I good at? What do I enjoy? Right. I enjoy training dogs. So then I kind of looked at the different companies and training centers around the Humane Society. Couple of private vendors, shelters, but then I found CCU and came and talked to you and I really liked what I saw. I didn't see that it fell into the trap that a lot of canine vendors do, which is just getting— expanding so big and, you know, compromising their standards. So I asked if I could— hey, I asked if I could just hang out, right? Can I hang out? I'll spray some kennels, you know, whatever. Because the other thing I also know, you don't want to piss in somebody's Cheerios. You know what I mean? So it's like every vendor has their way of training and doing things, and they're very protective of that. And then here comes some schmuck who thinks he knows dogs and says, hey, over here, we did it this way and I do it that way. And you're like, okay, well, we have a training method here. So I asked to just, just clean kennels at first, and then I saw some areas where I could help out as far as training goes and just kind of crept into the pool a little bit. And once people started having a little faith and confidence in me and they let me do a little more each time. So, and for me, it's like seeing an old friend, you know, old men. I know those old men that go hang out in barbershops. Mine is at a K-9 school.

That's right. Well, that's the crazy thing, right? Cause it's very easy. And you touched on this, that it's, it's very easy for us to fall into that trap where it's my way and the only way. And I speak a lot about this because I think that we need to mentor these handlers and these trainers to have an open mind and to learn from everybody that they can, because you're really going to limit yourself when you don't do that. And although, yes, we have a set way, we have a way that we've developed over the years, we're not so close-minded that we can't learn from others. And sometimes we allow our egos to get in the way, and that really hinders us in a lot of ways from not just learning but also doing what we really love, which is teaching students. And in my opinion, giving them that perspective of 17 years in the canine industry from a military perspective just gives them one more tool in their tool bag that maybe one day they can use. And yes, we got to be cautious, right? Because you just can't let anybody come in there and start giving advice and giving their opinions. But I remember hearing you, and, and I say this pretty often, I listen more than I look. And I, I have trained myself over the years to really listen to what people say and then watch their actions. And that's really what I did with you for a period of time. Now remember, and I don't even know if you remember us having this conversation, but we were standing outside the kennel, me, you, and Simon, and we were just talking, and I asked you if you wanted to get involved in training a little bit. And the most refreshing thing I heard you say was, hey, I just need to get a manual. I need to really read and kind of study what you guys do here before I really jump into training. Whereas most people would have said, no, okay, yeah, I can do this, I can do that, let me do this, let me do that. But you did it. You took a step back and said, hey, let me fill this out a little bit. I don't want to teach anything that's contrary to what you guys do here. And, and that's just refreshing. And, and to take that approach really gave me more confidence in what you do. I don't even know if you remember that conversation that we had.

I do. And the reason I think it's a huge disservice— and the Navy or the military was really guilty of it, you know— hey, Simon told me to handle my dog this way or do this with my dog this way, and you're telling me to do something completely different with my dog. Which way am going here, you know what I mean? So we do a huge disservice to these, especially the younger handlers who are still trying to learn, and we're teaching them two completely contradictory things, right? And then what happens is, is that a lot of times they'll take a little bit of this and a little bit of that and try to marry the two, and next thing you know, they're messing up their dogs. And once you're going down a certain path with a dog, you have to see that path through. All of a sudden, hey, we're doing, I don't know, compulsion with this dog or whatever else like that. Next thing you know, no, no, no, just do reward. Right. So now the dog's all over the place. So that's where you coordinate. And that's why I said this is your guys' school and your guys' training program. So I didn't want to push anything out that is going to contradict how you guys are teaching them, you know? Yeah.

That's that veteran in you, right? Because you've seen it throughout the different schools you've been through and the different trainers that you've seen or other kennel masters that you've seen and run across. And because you have that experience, you allow that to shine through. But it was just refreshing because we definitely want to complement each other and not devalue what you're teaching or devalue what another instructor is teaching. We want it to complement each other. And again, that was refreshing to me to hear that without me prompting it. And that's really a lot of the ways that I find good trainers or I find good people that I want to be around is the fact that I listen to what they say and how they do things. And make sure that it's not going to be an ego thing, or let me show you everything that I know, like I said earlier. But it was just great. You're just really speaking what's in your heart, and I like that. I really do.

And you really got to know when to take a step back, you know what I mean? Like, hey, I might have a, you know, the greatest idea in the world, but you know what, this trainer has a training plan and he's got his steps or whatever else, and you have to do your best to support that. I mean, and then if somewhere along the way it's not working or there's some deficiencies, okay, now let's brainstorm or let's discuss how we can fix this deficiency, you know, but you don't want to just step in and be like, nah, nah, I got a better way to do it. And then just completely railroad over whatever they were originally doing. And especially if you don't allow the younger trainers to come up with a plan and to execute it, you're always No, no, no, I could do it faster. They don't learn. We're supposed to be teaching people how to, how to take our jobs.

Yeah, that's exactly right. Was that— I don't know if that's even a term, right? Like, let's make one up. I think that's field etiquette. Yeah, right. Yeah, whoever has—

I'm training my replacements.

Yeah, absolutely. And let them make those mistakes sometimes.

Absolutely.

We don't want to take their authority away because a student sees that, right?

They see—

yeah, I don't want to undermine.

I definitely didn't want to undermine anybody.

Yep. That's awesome. That's great. So now you have all this experience and, you know, I wanna talk a little bit about that. And if you can reflect back to when you got your first dog and you went through your first handler's course, I can still remember mine like it was yesterday. You know, there was probably some things that a trainer was trying to teach you and there was probably things that you heard back then, but you didn't take it to heart. Can you reflect a little bit on maybe some of those things that you wish you would've took more serious back then? Now that you're older and wiser, and give us a little bit of outlook on these are things that I wish I would have done back then, but I didn't. But now looking back, I see the value in those things.

Yeah, I think in the beginning, and I think every hand was probably guilty of it, I was a young hotshot, right? So I got my feet wet. I went to Iraq. And now I came back, successful deployment, had a couple finds, so I'm kind of feeling my oats. And I came back and there was this one MA-1 Hanson, and I'm like, my dog's awesome, right? So we go into a warehouse and our explosive scent kit has 9 odors in it. We take the kit out there and I'm expecting 9 odors, right? So I start out in the warehouse and I'm searching And I'm searching and I'm searching. And what happens when you start searching and you don't find odor and you know there's supposed to be odor in the area? Your pattern goes from like this to that. You start detailing everything. I got about 9 aisles in and my dog just all over the floor, right? And what I come to find out was that Hansen had put all the odors at the end, you know, the last 2 aisles, right? But I was just so conditioned at that point. Okay, taking the kid out, we're gonna find things here, here, here, and here at these intervals. So all of a sudden now, I guess I wasn't as good a handler as I thought, you know? Like, I, like, I thought my dog was king. First, last big lesson I learned was trust your dog, right? Like, you know, dog's 90%, you're 10%. Just do your 10%. Did you afford the dog the opportunity to find odor? Yes or no? You're not supposed to find the odor for the dog. So at that point, then I stopped trying to cheat the system or just play the game. It was, okay, how do I become better? How do I improve? Instead of just let me get my numbers.

Yeah, talking about that, that's crazy because I think too, as a young handler, we get caught up in What's the trend, right? What are these other cool things that I can do? And now with social media, I didn't have that coming up. Still not really a fan of it, but, um, that's why we have Voice of Reason, because she handles all that for us. But I say that to say really focusing on stuff that's operational.

Yes.

Things that are not even going to ever matter or come up, those are cool things. But when we're spending training time even if it's downtime, because I think every opportunity to train operationally makes us a better team. Um, we are really literally wasting time. I remember seeing, going to seminars back when I ran a unit, and I would see teams that would stay at the bite field for 5 straight days working on things like bark and hold. And I used to always tell my handlers, don't even waste your time. Because we don't do bark and hold. We will never do bark and hold. And you're going to spend time working on things that matter operationally and deficiencies you have. If you're perfect, then go over there and work at the bark and hold for no reason, but you're not. So go work on things that are going to help you in the field versus things that are never going to matter for you. And that's just one example. And but I'm glad that you brought that point up and making that point to these young handlers, like, spend time being the best you can be where you utilize that tool, and that's out in the field. That keeps you safe, makes you reliable, and all those good things.

To me, there's more value instead of teaching my dog 20 things, especially in a static environment like in the training field and stuff like that. Instead of teaching my dog 20 things, I would rather teach my dog the 5 fundamental things and be confident and know that my dog will do that in every possible environment, right? It's great that my dog will do this on the training field. He'll go and retrieve a gun or he'll go and guard us up. But will my dog out, will my dog stay, will my dog recall no matter what? Lights and sirens, people yelling, you know, kids running around, whatever it is. Will my dog still listen to me where I can exercise due regard and I'm confident that my dog will do exactly what I want to. I used to be in Naples. There was something called the Spine where everybody was going up and down and up and down going to work, all these offices. And I would put my dog Vixen in just to sit stay. That's all I want to do is sit and stay. But I wanted her to sit and stay and for me to walk away and all these people going to work, you know what I mean, ignoring her, and her just sitting there going, you know what, I, I don't care about these distractors. I, I just care about what does he want me to do. You know, versus all these other cool little pet tricks that as soon as stress and anxiety and that excitement and drive goes up, all those 20 little nuanced things that you, that you taught go out the window.

That's right. Yep. Absolutely right. Great. I mean, that's, again, I think that's a, a valuable point to give the people that are listening and, and you've made it so clear. Work on the 5 fundamental things that are gonna make you successful. Versus the 20 other things that don't even matter. And that, that's great, especially when we're working on— we work with dogs that depend on being reliable, right? Depend on working through distractors and working through the worst situations that we can find ourselves in a lot of times. And so we have to be prepared for those things. So to spend time doing stuff that doesn't matter, I just— it's hard for me to recognize that. And it's hard for me to, to kind of see the value in that. And you hit the nail on the head with that. Absolutely. So from now, starting out in the field and now getting into what you're doing now and seeing these changes in, in the field as a whole, can you compare the differences when you first started as a handler to what you see now?

In that vein, military and civilian, I'm seeing the flip side of the coin, right? In the military, you have very little operational experience. I mean, you're on a military base, you don't see a lot of bites, you don't see a lot of finds. But 80% of canine in the military, 80% of our shift is training, not operations, right? I'll go train my dog for 6 hours and only patrol for 2. But I've had my hands on so many dogs because of it. And we also let go of our dogs every 3 years and transfer to another duty station, and we have another dog. And so military training is all about, will this dog work for anybody? Because this dog is going to have 5, 10 handlers in his career, right? But now on the civilian side, here's your dog and you can have them for the next 10 years, right? And so you really get to know that dog, and that's great. But you talk to a civilian cop, a lot of them say, how many dogs have you trained with? 3, 4, especially if you have those really small departments. And so then they go, well, I only know how to fix this deficiency with my dog. This worked with my dog, but that may not apply. So now in the military, you saw so many different types of dogs, whereas in the civilian— for the civilians, they got all the operational experience. They know their dogs are really are going to perform. Now, when I saw out in Iraq, Afghanistan, probably about maybe 1 out of every 4, 2 out of every 4, you know, when push came to shove, a lot of those dogs didn't perform as expected. When we actually needed them to perform, they didn't. That's because a lot of guys just go through the motions. Get the kit out, get your 9 otters, pop, pop, pop, put them up. You know, there's definitely the pros and cons to that. There's those half that really are willing to learn and gobble up everything, and there's a half that just still want to get their quota. I don't think that has changed much, but there's definitely a lot more. I mean, back when I first came in, it was command of going to skate. That's what you got. That was the only way you taught. Now there's so many different training avenues, and now people actually start to care about behavior instead of just conditioning.

Yeah. You know, I, I always say I have seen a change even from the law enforcement side, cuz that's really where my experience comes with. Over the last 5 years, I've done more with the military on the Army side. And it was a shock to see, I think, cuz I had formulated in my mind what I thought military dogs were and how they trained and things of that nature. and I make the comparison between MWDs and the law enforcement side. And, um, although I seen a lot of similarities, I saw a lot of differences in the handlers. And, and I think my own formulation of how I thought a soldier was, and it was just different. And I, I can't put my finger on why, but in my head I was just— it just took me a minute to get my feet underneath me. It was just that I had formulated in my own head from what I had seen growing up. And when I first began to really work intimately with the, uh, with the MWD program, I— it just reshaped my whole— and me and my dad talk about this all the time because he's a retired, you know, 20-plus year soldier, and I just had a different outlook. And I guess because I had been away from it so long in my adulthood, I just had a different outlook of it. I guess I'll say this because I can— it wasn't all about compulsion. And, and I've seen a lot of learning, a lot of the soldiers wanting to learn. And like you said, learning more behavior, which I just, for some reason, I didn't expect that. I just didn't. And I guess that's what I'm leaning more towards, where more law enforcement. You do as you're told and you just follow a trainer and they'll tell you what you need to do. And I got more questions from a lot of the military handlers about behavior and why. And maybe that's because of the turn of the military working dog program per se over the last 5, 6 years. And it was a little bit more refreshing than I thought it was gonna be as I began to get into that.

It's a rare opportunity for a military handler to be able to speak to an outside military entity, right? Because we'll get the same answers from 10 different ways from the guys who went through Lackland and, and this is how we do things, right? All of a sudden we get exposure to someone else outside of the military and oh man, yeah, it's a different world. I went to K-9 school obviously at Lackland in the military. But then when I went to Special Forces, I also then got to go to a civilian Special Forces K-9 school, right? And so where this one was color by the numbers, this one really pushed me, hey, you gotta keep up. And so there was a very stark contrast between the two.

All right. That's, that's just shedding some light to those that are listening on the differences of the program. I say training's the same. Around the world, you get a handler and a dog. We all deal with the same problems. We all deal with the same difficulties. And, and I—

it's all principles of conditioning. At the end of the day, it's all principles of conditioning.

Yep. But even with that being said, if you're training a dog and a handler, a dog team period across the, the ocean, they're running into the same difficulties that we are right here. There's really no difference. As you are now being more exposed to this law enforcement side of things, I'm sure you see some of the same difficulties with handlers and the things that they don't like to do, like inflecting the voice, what we were talking about today, or us having to reinforce, get a pause in there, command, let the dog think about it, and then give the out command. But I'm sure you saw a lot of the same things in the military realm as what you're seeing now in the training field, right?

I think every handler, I think, is guilty of it. You know, when you're a young handler, you try to manipulate the dog into being what you want the dog to be. And then when you actually understand how to make a dog perform and get the best out of the dog, you understand that you manipulate yourself. You change yourself to, to bring the best out of the dog. You become what the dog needs you to be. So if I have a hard-headed dog, I'm there to kind of keep him straight, keep him in line. If I have a more soft dog then I'm there to be the encouragement, the supporter, the cheerleader, right? You have to change the way you handle depending on the dog. And when you're a brand new handler, you only know how to handle one way.

That's great, that's great. Yeah, I didn't even think about it that way. You know, we say set your lines and make sure the dog walks in between the line, but you're absolutely right on making those adjustments to fit the dog versus the dog forcing the dog to be something that it's not, you know, or the vision you want it to be. But then you become, like you said, the encourager or the disciplinarian that keeps the dog in line or whatnot. And you're 100% right. That's, that's great to hear because I didn't even think about it that way at all.

And I think once you start getting more dogs under your belt, yeah, you understand, hey, this isn't working for this dog. I, you know, this worked great for this, my dog, but now they're having this new dog. And these things that I did aren't working. How come? You know what I mean? So then you all of a sudden you have to start manipulating yourself so that you can meet your certification, so that you can find training aids and maintain your standards.

Yeah. Or you can just come up with excuses that it's everybody else's fault.

Yeah. Oh yeah, that, you know, that's too high, the wind's blowing that way, there was this mop bucket right there. Yeah, you hear them all.

My trainer didn't prepare me.

Yeah, yeah, he didn't tell me to do that. All right, he said my dog was fine. Yep, maybe his dog was fine with him. Maybe you kind of did something between now and then.

Yeah, yeah, it's funny how we all, no matter where we come from, we hear the same stuff. It's crazy.

But my old— the older guys used to say, do you have odor-seeking goggles? Like, then stop trying to find the odor. That's your dog's job.

That's right. That's right. It's funny. I wanted to reminisce a little bit with you on just the old days because we have a little bit of experience under our belts, right? We've seen a lot of things. We've been involved in a lot of things, but we also know a lot of people and, you know, we hear stories. So I listen to your stories about dogs and about handlers. And it teaches me something. We have to have those ears open at all times to learn from every avenue, I think, to really be the pro that we should be. So it's good to sit here and reminisce a little bit about some dog stories. And I hear handlers joke quite often, oh, I guess it's story time now. But really, we learn a lot from story time. The differences of what you did with this particular dog or what this handler said or did and what made the difference to get through to that handler. I learned so much from that.

So I like to reminisce a little bit and, well, it starts a conversation, right? Where then all of a sudden the questions start coming out. Well, wait a second, how do you do this? How do you do that? I have almost a similar scenario. What would I do about that? Next thing you know, it became, it builds into a lesson.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And I, I really enjoy that. You know, I spoke a little bit about going and spending a little bit more time in the military working dog program, which I really, really enjoy. I enjoy meeting new soldiers, young handlers, and really trying to impress upon them the importance of what they do and the importance of what they do for our country, but also really shed some light on the civilian world. Now you get to experience that a little bit now, right? Because you've made that transition over to this civilian world. And I always hear, it seems like these young guys, they all want to get out of the military. Probably a small percentage, and I would venture to say about 10% I have a chance to talk to, want to stay in and make a career out of it. So they all want to get out, they all want to live the dream of the greener grass on the other side of the fence, right? But now that you've experienced kind of both ends of it, and we know now that you've spent a long career in the military— I say long career, but you did your service to retirement— what advice would you give these soldiers that want to get out? Because I encourage them to stay in, to be honest with you, because it's not as good as they think it is out here in the real world, right? It really isn't. Not in my opinion. But I encourage them to stay in. I encourage them to make a good career out of it because now looking back, you kind of living pretty good, uh, now that you did your time. You're still young and really you can do what you want to now, right?

Absolutely.

So what advice would you give them now, these young soldiers that may be listening to this, and you've spent this long career? Would you have taken that back and gotten out after 4 years or after your first term or what?

You know, it's funny, I never intended to do more than 4 years in the military, and then I re-enlisted. And then I never intended to do 8 years in the military, and then I re-enlisted. And I was like, nah, that's it, 12, and that, that's got to be my breaking point, otherwise I got to go to retirement. 12 came, I realized, I guess I'm going to retirement, right? But being a society of instant gratification You're a booter and everybody's telling you what to do and where to go and how to do it. And you see all everything that you don't have instead of everything that, what you do have. And so everybody who gets out, they go and work for usually some private security company. And, uh, I mean, back when Iraq was really in the heat of things, a lot of people made a lot of good money. They were making over $100,000 a year with their dogs.

Right.

And that's great and all. And even those people, all they love it at the time, but now you start to get to around third, late 30-somethings, you know what I mean? And you're starting— they're starting to see the people who stayed in are starting to get ready for retirement. And then even then you get older where it's like, man, now looking back on it now, I wish I would have stayed in because then I could have got paid for the rest of my life. I could have had medical for the rest of my life. People don't realize how much medical is because when you're young, you're immortal, right? And then all of a sudden about 35 hits and now you start aches and pains and nickel and dime you down. I never have to worry about that ever again. And you're right, at 41 I retired and I never have to work again a day, a day in my life.

That's amazing, man. I really do. I envy that. I'm 40 plus. I can't give you guys my real age because I don't look it, you know. I look about 22-ish. Yeah, just don't feel it. But even my dad, he retired at 41, 42 years old, thereabouts, and he's set for life. Like, really, he's still in his prime. Basically half his life now he can live and not have to worry about working again. He's a bit older now, um, but my point to that is he was just like you. He, he spent his time and now he's reaping those benefits. And I hear, I hear this conversation because a lot of these younger guys think that when they get out here in the real world, they're not going to have people telling them what to do. They're not going to have people telling them when to show up to work. They're not having people telling them this or that, but it's absolutely not the case at all. It's still the same thing.

You're just still got a boss. You still got people who you think you're better than that are in charge of you because they've been here longer. You still have the same resentments. You know, but I'll tell you what, what I can't put a price on— I never have to do anything I don't want to do ever again. I never have to be told what to do ever again by anybody. My life is completely my own, and I do it— I live by my own, my own means. So you, you can't put a price on that.

No. I get to see the time you get to spend with your son now, and your son's still young. You're going to see him grow up. And it's just amazing. I know I try to give that advice just because I've lived it through my dad. And now I'm still working at my age. He was already retired and, you know, didn't have to work if you didn't want to.

So see, even then I say good on you, you know what I mean? I think half the canine guys that retire, I think they're going to start their own canine business and stuff like that, and half them do, and then they're all done in a year. It takes a special ambition, not only just to start your own business, but then to keep it going. Like, like I said, at 40, I had no desire to start my own business and then to all the worries that come with building it, marketing it, you know what I mean? So yeah, God bless you. It's something I could never do.

Well, I don't wish it on anybody. I say if it's in your heart to do it, do it. And I was telling the guys today, I was teaching record keeping, and one of the things we were talking about, one of the guys asked me why I left law enforcement to do this, and I just gave him the short story. But at the end of the day, we gotta do what's in our heart and do what we love to do. And obviously the saying, you don't work a day in your life if you do that. But I also say that it's a blessing to meet the people I have an opportunity to meet. You know, I have 3 total on this call. And really, I would've never met you if it wouldn't have been for this. And it's a blessing to me. It really is. Same thing with Voice of Reason. I would've never known her if it wasn't for dogs. And I count that as a blessing every single day I have that opportunity. And, and it really does touch me to be able to have that opportunity. And that's really why I do it every single day. And I, I don't have stress in my life. We really don't have problems. We have solutions. But it's not for everybody. I, I also get that it takes a special person to be able to withstand some of the things that you have to withstand as a business owner and things you have to deal with and the personalities and everything else that comes along with it. But I wouldn't change it for the world. I just wouldn't. And I really do love what I do every single day that I have that opportunity.

And it shows. I mean, you can see those who are just in it for the money. I have seen those vendors, and you could see the people who do it because it's the right thing to do, because it's for the love of the mission. So, yeah.

Well, I really appreciate that. That means a lot coming from you. That's, you know, that advice given to those young soldiers, that's important to me, and that's important that us as older— and I hate to say that because we're not really that old, but As the older, wiser, I always try to give them that advice because I would like every single soldier to be sitting where you were one day or where you are one day and go, man, you know what? I'm glad that I stayed in because it really made a difference. And the armed forces are not paying us to say that, but I've seen it firsthand. And really we're tasked with being honest and really giving the best advice when we have that opportunity. I think that's what a trainer needs to do, right? Even if it's to the detriment of ourselves. We should give the best advice. We should give what's best for the handler, for the dog. We should always put that best foot forward and always be honest with them.

Yeah, and be honest with them. I, I'll be honest, I, I probably hated more days than I enjoyed in the military, you know what I mean? There were, there were hard duty stations, hard times, and more often than not, I was, I was hating somebody. I think my funnest 2, uh, years were deployed. But it's an investment, you know what I mean? Just like investing your money. Yeah, it'd be fun to spend it right now, or I can invest it and reap a much bigger reward later. And they have to learn the concept of investment. You're investing your time, you're investing yourself to get a bigger reward down the road. You know, how many— what marketable skills do you really have? Or are you going to get out and go work at Starbucks?

Right, that's right. You look at the discipline, you look at the, the structure that the military gives you. I just see a lot of perspectives, and I, I understand the grass is always greener on the other side, but even when I was in law enforcement, I wasn't one to switch departments and try to find the next big thing. It's all government work no matter where you go, right?

Yep.

So it's really up to us to make the best out of it. And a lot of it's our own mentality. If we think it's terrible, it's going to be terrible. We're going to find a terrible thing about it. But if we make it a good thing, we can also have a positive influence on others that are around us. And it flies by. And before you know it, you're sitting there with your arms crossed like Phil, and you don't have to work a day in your life, and you can do everything you want to do. Oh, it's great.

It's definitely what you make of it. I, when I got med dropped out of BUD/S, out of SEAL training, I was so angry and pissed off and bitter at life because I was supposed to be a Navy SEAL. Now I'm stuck in the Navy. So my first duty station was Iceland, right? Who gets to go live in Iceland? You know how many things I saw in Iceland? I think one thing. I was just so angry. I just stayed in my barracks room and I went to work. Granted, it was after 9/11, so we worked a lot more than normal, but I wouldn't have done it anyways because I was just like, this shit. I let a golden opportunity pass me by to see this, this beautiful landscape, this beautiful country, and I just didn't care. Because I was determined to be miserable. By the time I got stationed in Italy though, I went and saw everything because I was gonna make the best of it.

Mental perspective. That's a great lesson for all of us. So let's get back to a little bit of dog stuff because today's numbers, they say the military has, or the armed forces and as a whole has about 1,600 dogs in the programs according to the Department of Defense. And you've seen quite a few dogs in your career. Can you shed some light on one of the most challenging dogs you can remember?

Well, there's a lot. There was one dog named Leo who had just been beaten down so much by, by every handler before him, you couldn't grab his choke chain to take it off. Like, it was a cardinal sin. You don't leave a choke chain on in, in a run, right? Um, And this was when I was stationed in Bahrain, and I would come in in the morning and Leo's choke chain's on. I'm like, what the hell? You can't do that. We couldn't get it off him, you know what I mean? Because as soon as you grab for the choke chain to take it off, he would stiffen and that scorpion tail would come up and you're like, it's crapshoot at that point, right? Even me as a handler, I would have to bend down and, oh, you're such a good boy, as I'm working the choke chain.

So yeah.

It's inheriting. Like I said, you bounce from dog to dog to dog, so you're always inheriting other people's mistakes. But it's pretty universal, you know, problems with drive, right? Yeah, if you have a low drive dog, hey, you need to keep this dog certified. They become hell or high water, this dog needs to stay certified, right? And so you're doing everything you can to up the drive of a 10-year-old German Shepherd who's just over it. You need to be certified in 3 months on patrol and you've got a dog who doesn't want to do anything but bite. So the frustration that comes with it, you're under the gun. The hardest thing is what, who do I need to be to bring the best out of this dog? So for Leo and his aggression, I had to really be creative. Okay, he doesn't like his reward taken away. Well, here's another reward. Right? And then here's another reward, and here's another one. The next, I start distracting, but he starts letting go of it. And then, then I could slowly pick it up because he doesn't know if he's getting the other one back. So once you learn those principles of conditioning, you learn— you come up with your own training ideas on the fly. I need this behavior, how do I get there? So, okay. But yeah, Leo, Leo was a challenge. We had a dog named Block and he deserved that name. He was dumb as a fence post. He was a challenge because he knew odor, but he had no pattern, and he was just real, like, slow and dopey. Getting him to actually become an asset, that was rough. But yeah, it's all— detection is usually more frustrating than patrol is. Every dog wants to bite, right? Not every dog wants to search.

Okay. And taking some of those dogs that you had challenges with and you think through 'em throughout the years, and as those names of those dogs come to mind, can you give us two things that you learned from those dogs that somebody that's listening today could take and apply it to similar dogs that they come across?

I think one of the biggest things I've learned is the, the, the most surefire way a dog is gonna do something is if he thinks it's his idea. For instance, I want a dog to sit, right? And he's not because he's so amped or whatever else. Yeah, I could pull up on the choke chain and he can, you know, straighten them up and then eventually his butt will drop. But I forced the dog to do that. The dog's thinking, he made me do that. Right. You know, as opposed to, let's say if I tap the back of his leg and then all of a sudden the elevator goes down, cause he kind of just, his hips move forward just a little bit. And so he sat thinking that was his idea. I mean, handlers see it all the time when they have your dog in the sit and stay and the dog was in the heel, right? All of a sudden the dog's kind of looking away and you take two giant steps back and that dog's like, whoa, like I'm in the wrong position right now. And he runs back to the heel, right? Because that's what felt natural to him. It was his idea to heal, not mine. So The, the most concrete way you can get your dog to perform consistently is if the dog thinks, I want to do this, I want to heel, I want to sit, I want to recall, I want to out, because that's what feels natural. So, right, that's the best thing you can do is, is whatever direction you come at your dog to train your dog At the end of the day, you want the dog to think it's his idea.

Okay, and that sometimes takes some creative measures.

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, and that's why I said you have to manipulate yourself to be what the dog needs you to be. The dog's really an alpha, like our SEAL dogs, right? They're alpha. So you know what, at the end of the day, we won their respect and we never had a problem with them They needed to be put in their place and understand, okay, I'm following you. Give the dog what he needs and he'll perform. But at the end of the day, it's his idea.

Yeah, and that's good. Obviously not hurting the dog or anything of that nature, but putting out those, I guess, those parameters. And we said this on the street a lot in law enforcement. Some people need to be cussed out, right? Because that's what they understand, right? And some people need to be talked to and coddled, right? And they get that, right? Some students need to be yelled at to get the point across, and some need to be counseled with a piece of paper. It's tapping into the mind of the dog in a way that they best learn.

Because what's the ultimate goal? Ultimate goal is to accomplish the mission. So if I can get more out of you with honey, great, you know what I mean? Sometimes I get more out of you with, with vinegar. What do I need to do to accomplish the mission?

That's right, that's right.

And I don't think I have corrected a dog, and I— well, we'll say as a gross generalization, I have tried not to correct the dog in the last 10 years. Right. The dog is self-corrected. I have had a dog self-correct a ton of times. Right.

Yeah.

So when you correct a dog, now you're my enemy, not just the decoy. So now I have to keep an eye out for you as opposed to, let's say if I'm walking and he's looking this way and I heel away the other way and he's self-corrected right now, he's beating himself up. Now he's going. I wasn't paying attention. I'm going to do a better job of that because he went the other way. I didn't see it. So next thing you know, instead of the dog looking at butterflies while he's in the heel, the dog's walking in the heel kind of being observed, but then he looks at where you're at. He's always checking where you're at, right? I always will put the dog in a situation where I could have them self-correct.

I understand. That's great, great advice. A lot of people think And, and I hear this all the time, right? Well, it's only positive training. I'm a 100%, I'm on board with that statement, 100%. But what is positive? Is positive giving the dog something that they don't like? Because it's adding.

Positive is adding. Positive reward, positive punishment, right?

Right. That's right. So I think there's a lot of maybe handlers or maybe even just people listening and I won't even use handlers as a generalization, but those that work with dogs that think that positive only comes from a food, that's absolutely not true. It's tapping into how the dog best learns and giving them what they desire. And sometimes dogs want that command or want that direction from the handler.

Yes.

Feel confident in that in that arena with the handler that's actually directing them or taking control of the situation, if you will, and giving them that clear line of sight. And then sometimes they do need the food or they do need the, the toy to help become the best that they can become. But I like that we were— the statement that you're saying is letting them correct themselves because then they're teaching themselves how to do it.

And they're not holding a grudge against me. But yeah, if you're all just positive, positive reward, negative reward, right? Giving reward or withholding reward. Well, what happens if that reward loses value? So drive goes up higher than the reward. Next thing you know, that food doesn't mean anything, or the withholding of that food doesn't mean— hey, I'll give you a treat if you let go of that bite sleeve. That dog's like, no, I like this better. Well, I'm not gonna give you a treat then. Cool. I'm gonna keep biting. Right. Training method come in.

Yeah. Yep. It's hard to get people to understand that sometimes because they're directed down a path, but there's certain—

that need balance.

Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes that animal has enjoyment or finds enjoyment in other places. That's counterproductive to the mission. And with that, we have to devalue that and put something else that's higher than that value. Because when they enjoy the biting more than they enjoy the letting go, and there's no balance there, then we have problems.

We want the dog to speak our language. I would rather always get rewarded for something than not, right? So we want the dog to speak our language. No, we have to speak the dog's language. Hey, you know what, you've gone outside the boundaries. I gotta pull you back in. I gotta check you in some kind of way. And it's for your own benefit because I don't want you to get hurt. I don't want you to hurt yourself. I don't want you to be in a position that is too big for you. So that's how you teach their boundaries. You have to speak the dog's language, not have the dog speak human.

Well, that's where you come in and go— and that's what you were referring to earlier about us making those adjustments. Yeah, to get to the dog's level versus making the dog come to our level. You're absolutely right. Right. Well, last thing, I'm gonna give you an opportunity to impress upon one handler that's listening right now. And if you had to give a piece of advice to that one handler that you're speaking to face to face, what's the one thing that you would tell him if you could only tell them one thing that would make them successful?

I think my big life lesson that I've learned in K-9, you start out as a handler, right? And as a handler, you only know the what, right? I say seek, the dog looks for explosives. I say get him, the dog bites, right? I say this, the dog does that. That's the what. You get your feet wet as a handler and you start to get into that beginning trainer mindset, right? Now you start to learn the how. So I saw how this guy got my dog to out, or how this guy got that dog to out. So now you're learning the little tricks of the trade. So I saw how I can get a dog to go high on detection or sniff buried aids. I saw the how, right? And then you graduate from the how, and then once you start getting to that advanced trainer level, that master trainer level, we'll say, then you're more concerned with the why. That's behavior. How do I— and to me, that's the biggest source of pride I ever have in training a dog is if I can modify or change behavior. So therefore, now with principles of conditioning, I want my dog to search buried odor. I don't know how, or maybe there's this new thing that I've never seen how it's done. I have to formulate my own way. And so therefore, I want this behavior, and I know this leads to this that leads to this, right? So So you go from the what to the how to the why. And when you do the why, you come up with your own training methods. And then what happens? You become famous for it. And next thing you make a whole K9 school vendor out of it with that method. So take your time, try to get your hands on as many dogs as possible. Don't expect success every single time. Look at those frustrations, look at those failures. And see how it failed and why it failed. Okay, I learned something from this. Now next time I know how to manipulate behavior. Learn to manipulate behavior.

Unfortunately, we have to end it on that. And I say unfortunately because I think we could talk dogs.

Yeah, probably.

Yeah, like we really could, because I just love the perspectives. And it's so crazy to hear that advice, to hear that experience. Phil, I can't thank you enough for joining us on The Source.

It was great, good times.

I appreciate it very much. Go!