Myths about Working Dogs & Training | SOURCE

Welcome to The Source Podcast, all things working dogs. I am Brandon, going to be the host today, joined with Keely. So we're gonna get some into some myth and, and some facts potentially, uh, or old wives' tales if you will. So I'm pretty excited about it. I think this was actually my idea. I'm glad Maya took my advice. I guess one of the myths that is popular is that working dogs are always working. Is that right? Is that how that's supposed to be worded, that working dogs are always working? Or is it just dogs are always working?

I feel like it's toward the dog.

Yeah.

You think?

You know, they're going to always be in service.

Okay. I mean, in theory, depending on what they're, they're doing, you know, a seeing eye dog is probably always working until their owner goes to sleep.

Well, they might even be working while they're asleep. What's gonna happen when they're asleep?

Right.

Don't turn.

Dogs gotta know. So working dogs are always working. Keeley, you wanna touch that one?

My feeling is yes and no. Obviously when they're in their kennel, not working.

Right. From a literal standpoint. I got it.

I feel like Simon's always told us that when he lets his dog out, his dog's always working in pattern. So in my eyes, I feel like that aspect, they are kind of always wanting and trying to work. Okay. Yeah. I feel like they are to an extent.

I would agree. I think that if you have a working dog and it's time to relax, the dog is relaxing. But also at the same time, if you have a dog that you just leave loose in your house, it's gonna find things for itself to do. And I think in that aspect it could be considered always working. It's always looking for something to do. Uh, I feel like a lot of these dogs need a purpose, and if we don't give them a purpose, uh, they can find their own. Uh, so that can always just kind of be one of those things that they're always working. It just depends on the dog specifically. You look at pets, I mean, if a pet doesn't know what work is, is it going to work?

To be what? I mean, my dog is always working, if you want to put it like that. She's always find something to chew on, right? And so like, it's not her actual toy.

What? Right. And so like, and you have—

this is so funny.

Training dogs are the worst. So I guess in the working world, you know, like if you're not giving your dog something to do and you have one of those working breeds, you could definitely find yourself in a situation where it's going to find itself something to do. And that would, I guess we can classify that as always working, uh, because it doesn't necessarily have a purpose, but the dog's brain is going, which in my head is kind of working. And I guess that kind of would lead into our next topic where we see it a lot of times where clients a lot of times will come in and say, oh, my dog would be a great service dog, or my dog would be a great working dog because it always sniffs all over the place. And it's like, okay, well, maybe that could be the case. It could just be investigating things. And I don't know that we would classify that as working, but that does lead into the next top or the next question. Any dog can be a working dog or a service dog.

As far as like detection work and fight work and actually having drive and prey drive like that, I would say no, not all dogs have that ability. But like with emotional support dogs and stuff like that, I mean, any dog could probably be an emotional support dog.

Yeah. And getting into, getting into like all the emotional support dogs is kind of a, there's a lot of gray area, if you will. I think there's some requirements that the ADA has on that. Like they can't be aggressive towards humans or other dogs. Things like that. We're looking for those drives. We're looking for all of those, uh, key indicators that tell us that a dog can be a working dog or a service dog.

I don't think that everybody's Chihuahua can be a working dog, or everybody's German Shepherd, right?

Exactly.

Yeah, does not care to find a ball at all, right?

And so if you've got dogs Even, you know, there's breed standards that come with Belgian Malinois, German Shepherds, that everybody sees them and they think police dog and working dog. Some of those dogs just don't have the drives to be a working dog. So ultimately, not every dog can be a working dog, uh, in the sense of what we do, um, but some dogs can be Emotional support dogs, even if they're not a working dog, or a drug detection or tracking and whatever.

He wants them to support him when he's emotionally distressed.

Emotional distress.

He looked at that dog and at first thought, I'm over it. He took over.

How many times has that happened, Kiwi? Don't answer that for legal reasons. Yeah, another good point to that is only pointy-eared dogs can be working dogs. I don't know where that myth came from or why that would be a myth. Uh, pointy-eared dogs are not the only dogs that we use for service animals, uh, or working dogs. Sorry, pointy-eared dogs are not the only dogs that we use for working dogs. Um, good example of that is we use German Shorthaired Pointers, which are floppy ear. We use Labs, Springers. I've seen Bloodhounds. Uh, Bloodhounds are great tracking dogs and they've got the biggest floppiest ears you've ever seen. They're so cute. You just want to squeeze their face. Um, Giant Schnauzers, that those are being used a lot right now for bite work. I've seen any— that's freaking awesome. They're huge dogs. They've got a great temperament most of the time, and so they can be used for working dogs as well.

We just had Cody come through, he's a flat beard.

Cody just came through as an explosives detection dog.

Nicest explosives detection dogs I've seen.

Yeah, worked really well. It doesn't have to do with necessarily the breed, uh, it's more along the lines of, does the— we mentioned this before— does the dog have the drives that we are looking for? Hunt drive, prey drive. Can we get some defense out of the dog? Sum that question up. Not only pointier dogs are working dogs.

Why do you tend to believe that?

Physically? Yeah.

I mean, you see the police—

sorry, but patrol dogs.

Yeah.

I think the most— I think it's like a stereotype kind of thing. Yeah. You just see a pointier dog and you're like, oh, that's a working dog.

Keeley, have you heard any myths in the working dog world?

That all working dogs are aggressive.

There has to be a level of defense and a level of aggression. And I use that term loosely because it's not necessarily aggression. It's more of a defense drive that we're looking for, for these dogs, for them to be a patrol dog. And once again, I mean, most of our floppy ears are like kind of space cadets where They have no— they just want attention and they enjoy the attention and have absolutely no desire to be aggressive towards anything or anybody. And a lot of these questions are dependent because, I mean, realistically, working dogs can, you know, not all working dogs are aggressive. Even bite dogs, there are some of the sweetest bite dogs in the world. Right. It's all controlled and it's in controlled environments. What is going on around that dog that could lead to that quote aggression? Um, but you're not necessarily, not every working dog is gonna be aggressive.

And if, if you wanna go off of the stereotype about 20 years about them being working dogs and them being aggressive, I've met some of the nicest 20-year working dogs in my life. They were full, full-service patrol dogs and You could just go up and give them a hug. And I mean, they, they didn't do it. They just wanted love.

Right. And so like to say that all working dogs are aggressive, we're making a very broad statement that's not necessarily true. Female dogs make bad working dogs.

Yeah, no, I disagree completely. I don't think the gender has anything to do with it. I know plenty of female working dogs. That have done great.

There are female bite dogs, there are female detection and tracking dogs that do great at their job. Female dogs can be working dogs. Um, Keeley mentioned a good point about them being in heat. We have found that can affect— if there is a female dog in heat around a male dog, it can affect the male dog working, but, um, not necessarily going to affect the female dogs. So female dogs, in my opinion, can be just as good working dogs as male dogs.

Actually, no, a lot of handlers prefer females.

It's a lie.

No, I have no idea. I think the males just want to bark. It just irritates their coals.

That's it.

Segue into our next myth. Patrol dogs are trained to bite and kill. What would you say?

I would say they're— this is a tough one for me. I would say their intent is to kill you.

That's their differentiating trait for it.

So We teach patrol dogs for it to be a game. And so in the dog's head, the dog is thinking of it as this is a game. I get to chase, I get to satisfy some of those drives. I get to satisfy the, the, the ball drive, if you will, or the chase drive, the prey drive, the hunt drive. And then I get a bite and it's a game. It's a game for our dogs when we train them.

In the bathroom with your friend.

On something positive, right? Because we're a positive-only facility. And so biting is a positive thing for our dogs. We do not train patrol dogs to bite somebody in an area that's going to kill them. We train our patrol dogs to bite in an area that's one, given to them, but also It's more of an apprehension tool. So it's not necessarily in order for the dog to kill anybody. That it's an apprehension tool that we use. It's, it's not to try and kill anybody. Now, I can't speak to what other people are training their dogs to do. I have no idea. All right. You know, legitimately trained patrol dogs are trained to bite an area in order to apprehend a suspect. That is, that is the truth in the way that we train dogs.

What do you think about titanium teeth implants to increase their bite depth?

Uh, that— I've never seen a dog with titanium teeth. Only time that I've heard of them using titanium is when a dog breaks his canine doing bite work, and that's the only time What? Or apprehending a suspect, the dog breaks his tooth on a bone or something along those lines. Uh, that's the only time I've heard of them using, replacing them with titanium.

I mean, if they have broken canine, then it'd not be, they don't get broken.

Right. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of, it's just like with humans and having cavities or a broken or missing tooth. There can be a lot of pain associated with that, a lot of discomfort when biting. So, and then not to mention infections and all of those things that can happen. And so replacing that canine with a titanium tooth after it has already been broken or dislodged, that can be used. Uh, they can be used in that. Personal protection dogs are trained to bite people when they want. Does that mean when they want to bite a person? Or when the handler wants to bite, he wants them to bite.

So this is on a run and run.

Okay.

Or being very threatened.

I would presume it's gonna, it means when the dog wants to bite. Yeah.

So personal protection dogs trained at Custom K9 Unlimited are trained to bite either on command or a perceived threat.

But if I just come up and beg your hand, though. Not bite me.

A good trained personal protection dog should have no issues with you walking up to me and shaking my hand.

And if I shove you, is it a different story?

Now, if you shove me and the dog perceives that as a threat, there's a good chance you get bit. Please don't do that in front of me.

Not a chance. Did it.

Okay. I'm good.

I don't want to take her bite. Her stories.

Think of the personal protection dogs. Handlers view their working dogs as gear or equipment.

I think this is one that we learned a couple of times.

Uh, you know, from a handler's standpoint, a working dog is a tool. It is an asset. But I do not know a handler that does not love their dog. Yeah, I mean, I don't know a handler who's not emotionally attached to their dog. You know, a lot of these guys, they are working dogs, but they're still part of the family. They're still part of the team. And they viewed him as a partner more than a tool. Well, more than a piece of equipment. They're not just They're not just some piece of equipment they can throw by the wayside. When these dogs retire, 9 times out of 10, they retire to the handler that has last had them. And so specifically if it's owned by the department. And so the majority of these handlers view their canine companions as a partner.

I know a lot where they would put their dog first to, like, in any situation. They would put their dog first and then they would never even put their dog in a situation where something would happen to them either.

Caitlin, if your dog were to pee in the house, would you rub your dog's nose in it?

No.

It's like, it's so cruel and useless.

It doesn't even make sense. Like, what are you trying to get to the dog? They can't use the bathroom?

Think about a dog's attention span equivalent to like a 2-year-old. And so if that dog peed in the house an hour ago and you go over there and rub that dog's nose in it, that's my pee. Why are you rubbing my nose in it? So it's like all you're doing is— what ends up happening is you're marking a behavior, which is what the owners think they're doing. They're marking a bad behavior, which is the dog urinating in their home, urinating in a place that they're not supposed to urinate. But what's really happening is now that dog is associating Anytime my owner walks over to me and has this angry look on his face, he's going to grab my nose and rub it in pee. Because all dogs associate a— is within like most 2 seconds right before what happened. Yeah. People will argue and say, well, if I catch my dog doing it and then rub his nose in it, once again, why are you rubbing your dog's nose in pee? Take your dog out to the bathroom. Yeah, if you consistently have a routine to where you're taking your dog out— first of all, kennel train your gosh darn dogs. And then when you're kennel training your dogs, have a routine. Your dog goes out after it eats. In 20 minutes, 40 minutes at most, take your dog to the bathroom. Your dog's in there sucking water down, take it to the bathroom.

The rule is for every month of age is every hour that can— they can be left in their crate for without using the bathroom. So if they're 6 months old, they can go 6 hours. Now, this doesn't apply to everything. You should probably let them out for 6 hours, but that is pretty much the standard that we kind of go by.

Kili is going to be doing a puppy training class if you guys are interested. Uh, that will be offered on Saturdays. Uh, we'll put the—

starts on the 29th.

We'll put the description for all of that, how to sign up in the, the description of the podcast. Uh, so that you guys can sign up for that. It's gonna be an awesome opportunity to learn a little bit more about training puppies specifically.

I think it's a crate. I think it's a mid-proof, but now, like, saving people disagree on why crates should be approved.

I see so many posts about people being like, "I never put my dog in a crate and he's just fine." Like, you shouldn't leave your dog in a crate while you're at work, like this and that. I completely disagree with it. I feel like the crate is somewhere for your dog to relax. It should be a happy place for your dog. They should enjoy being in their crate. I really don't see a problem with leaving your dog in a kennel. I genuinely don't know what it is with crates that people associate it with such a negative.

A crate is a— should always be a positive thing. A lot of people will punish their dog, go to your crate. Well, now you're associating that the negative thing, cuz the dog remembers within that 2 seconds you yell at your dog and then now it's in its crate. Now the crate is a bad thing. Kilian mentioned it. Crate is a safe space for your dog. The crate should be a positive thing for your dog. It's a place for— just like humans, we need some time alone to decompress. It's a great opportunity for your dog to decompress. It's a great opportunity to also help prevent bloat and things like that, so that your dog doesn't get ill and now you've got a $7,000 surgery because you decided to play with your dog right after slurped down a bunch of water. Or the other side of that, you leave your dog in your house, destroys your couch cushion, swallowed half of the, half of the fabric that's on your couch cushion, and now it's backed up, has a blockage in his stomach or intestines. It's, it's not— people think about it as a negative thing when realistically it needs to be one, a positive thing, but also think about it as it's keeping your dog safe. It— we can't read a dog's mind. You may have the best dog in the world, so you say, and you leave your dog alone, it destroys whatever it's going to destroy, eat your clothes. They like our odor, it makes them feel safe, it makes them feel, you know, loved, if you will. And they eat your clothes, and now we've got a problem. And so If we leave a dog alone to its own devices, it's going to find something for it. Crate training should always be a part of your routine when training a dog, um, making it a positive thing. I've got a client right now who says, oh, I can't leave my dog alone because it'll destroy stuff. Well, have you started crate training your dog? No, I haven't. Well, you need to start crate training your dog so that you can leave your dog alone so that doesn't destroy your house.

People in an office that are working on— what I guess is very— if I pull the Trump button, then you would have— yeah, I'll work for you.

The moral of the story is train your dog, take your dog to the bathroom, stop rubbing the dog's nose in its own urine and defecation, please. It does not work. It doesn't do anything. It just associates you with poo and a bad experience. It's almost like if your dog bites you, bite it back.

I just want to see the logic behind it. Yeah, in what world would I ever put my mouth on my dog other than to give it kisses?

I see one where somebody just wanted to find common— with the nervousness, and someone said Hey, what would you say?

I told you that dogs can smell fear.

I don't think it's a smell, really.

Okay.

I don't know how to go about that because like dogs can smell like blood pressure. Like if your blood pressure goes up, a dog can sense that. Like pheromones and stuff like that. I don't really know. They can smell fear. I know that, like, if you're handling the dog and you get anxious, then the dog can sense that because you're— they say your emotions travel down leash. But as far as them being able to smell it, I don't think so.

Yeah, I would have to agree with you. I don't, I don't necessarily know that it's a smell. I believe that they can sense fear. And it's probably like you were saying, traveling down the leash or something along those lines. Body language, body posture, those kind of things. Blood pressure, something along those lines. Which would then kind of lead into—

His tail is wagging, so it must be happy. What are we talking about?

Body language. So they're having a dog's tail wagging when chasing prey too, or when searching for drugs or explosives.

So maybe those are happy experiences for the dogs, and it's a happy dog because it's chasing.

Yeah, well, Dr. Martin South used to call it Yeah.

Yeah.

Also the wag.

There's different tail wags.

Okay. That's what I was trying to say. Like the wag is different.

You can have a stiff tail.

And wagging back and forth.

Wagging back and forth. But that, that is a sign of aggression.

And when the dog's tail is down, kind of tucked under, but it's still wagging back and forth.

It's fearful.

Could be fearful.

It could be a fear biter.

But also what if the dog doesn't have a tit?

Which way?

Their little buck wagon?

They go that way.

Just keep driving off there.

A lot of people think that all socialization is good socialization.

And on that same note, socializing your dog means introducing it to dog parks and zoos.

No, no, no, and no.

Please stop taking your dogs to dog parks.

Please.

They are the most infected, disease-ridden place on the face of dog community earth.

And they're extremely toxic.

Yeah. I mean, think about it. You got all these dogs running around, no leash, owners on their phones, and probably no recall. Probably no recall, no obedience. And you've got this dog that's just wandering around doing whatever it wants. Sniffing, picking up, doing whatever it wants, and not even being properly socialized. If you're going to socialize your dog with other dogs, it should be in a controlled environment. It should be positive control. Pop— yeah, positive control of both dogs. Um, and in the working dog community, we don't want our dogs necessarily aggressive towards other dogs, so there is a socialization that we do there. But as far as just letting our dogs play with each other, um, there is kind of a behavior that's known as aleomatic behavior. Aleomatic behavior can create bad habits because one dog's doing something, another dog is going to pick that bad habit up. And so what will happen in those instances is you're trying to, uh, just talked to a client about this today. When you're working with your dog, you need to be alone with that dog working with them. Dogs are pack animals. When they get around other dogs, they're going to act as if they are part of a pack. There's a hierarchy. There's, there's a pecking order, if you will. And so there still needs to be some socialization that happens. And, you know, especially with pets and things like that, You want your dog to be social with other dogs. I get that, especially if you've got more than one dog. Um, but at the same time, it's not necessarily always a good thing.

And then to even kind of pinpoint off of that, a lot of people will think that introducing their dogs to like a lot of people or bringing them into like big crowds, even like, oh, my dog is around all these people, like I'm socializing them, but that could also overstimulate them. It could be a bad experience if you're not making it positive enough. They can be overwhelmed and they might even come to a point to where they're actually scared of being around a large crowd of people and they get really anxious because you didn't do it in phases.

You just threw them into the world.

Those are aspects that can be trained out in some instances. Um, but that can go into over-socializing your dog, that can go into not socializing your dog enough. And so when you have one extreme or the other, can build what's known as an aggressive dog based off those experiences.

Um, no, one that we hear a lot is if you don't like going to resource stores, please, or keep the food away.

But like, and we'll, we'll touch on both of those together or separately. Stop putting your hand in your dog's food. Who on earth thought that that was a good idea? Hey, this dog has teeth that are bigger than mine and a jaw that is stronger than mine, and I'm going to put my hand in his food just to show them that It's okay. He doesn't need to buy it. Do you want people putting their hands in your food while you're eating at the dinner table? No. Do you want your dog to put his paw in your food while you're eating? No, I would assume not. So, I mean, some people might, but at the same time. So with that being said, let your dog eat in peace. Like, it doesn't need you to put your hands in its food. For you to show them that it's not okay to be aggressive. We can work through those issues when there is food aggression, things like that. But also, if your dog is food aggressive, there's probably a reason— resource guarding, things like that— that, that is not so much— it's not going to be fixed with you putting your hand in your dog's food. It may worsen it. Yep. Um, But also people feed their dogs together and then they end up with a dogfight.

That must be a lot of them.

Yeah.

People do forget that they're animals and that we can't verbally, like with words, communicate to them. Words don't have meaning unless we give them meaning to them.

Yes.

And so those kind of things, can just happen. You know, you can have the nicest dog in the world. One day she decides she's tired of your bullshit and turns around and bites.

Well, even though your dog never looked bad to me, and I would walk her, that makes her react in a more aggressive way.

Yeah. Sorry.

So we mentioned being the alpha with your dog.

Theory. Make sure your dog is your dominant one. Walk them behind first. You're dominant. Eat before your dog. You're alpha one.

Some of those things just don't—

yeah, like eating before. Yeah, it's like, I don't see how that gives any behavior. Like, hey man, I'm eating for you. Look at that.

How do you feel?

Some of that stuff's kind of weird, right? But the Some of these dogs, if you try to be an alpha with them or against them, they think it's a fight. And so you end up with a dog that is just gonna— you're just gonna butt heads with because now, okay, you're gonna impose your will. I'm more— the dog thinks I'm more alpha than you, I'm going to impose my will. We've seen it before. We're just simply outing a dog of a toy or a ball or something along those lines where dog thinks that every time he's going to get out, it's going to be a fun. And so it builds that dog up. It starts to amp that dog up because you were trying to be the, quote, alpha, and the dog's there to prove you wrong. Once again, it goes like putting your hand in the dog's bowl because you're the alpha and your dog's not going to bite you.

Please just grab a handful there.

Yeah.

Breakthrough. The one alpha theory is known as— I'm not following you.

There's a level of respect that has to be built, and it's not necessarily so much of an alpha. Think about it as a relationship with a significant other. There's a give and there's a take. You can't always just push, push, push. Without some pushback. So you got to build respect between you and your part— canine partner, your, you know, significant other. There's always got to be some kind of respect built, mutual agreements, uh, that need to happen. There are times when you can be a little more assertive, a little more alpha, if you will, but then there are also times like sticking your hand in your dog's bowl where being an alpha is useless. And it's not going to get you anywhere except potentially bit. And then there's also dogs that have had somebody push them and try and impose their will. We see it with different fear biters and aggressive dogs where they've tried to impose their will on this dog. And something as simple as toning it down, backing off, and just giving the dog the out command in a whisper instead of a harsh, harsher correction. Will actually be of more benefit than trying to physically fight the dog. One of the big things that we hear all the time, especially with our pet owners, is spaying or neutering your dog will fix all of your problems.

I actually went through this recently with a family member. They have a Great Dane Lab mix, and he's crackhead of a dog. He needs some training. But they, they told me we're actually going to get him neutered next week. I think it's really going to tone down like a lot of his behavior issues. And I, in my head, I was just like, eh, good luck with that. Because it's not really going to do much for the dog. The dog's not really going to change that drastically to where their behavior problems are just gone.

Keep in mind, we're not vets. We don't claim to be vets. Uh, but in the past, dogs that have been neutered continue the same behaviors. Or if he's the same, right? So he's got here. So he did end up getting neutered, he's acting the exact same way because these behaviors are learned. If you train your dogs from a young age to act appropriately, socialize them properly, get some basic obedience training, all of those things, that's what's going to eliminate most of the behavior. From my understanding, vets now are starting to wait to neuter dogs until they're 2. I've seen a year and a half, 2 years old, somewhere in there. The breed—

but I want to say their reasoning is just for growth. I don't even think it's right.

Testosterone is already developed in that dog. The dog's behavior is already learned. Taking the dog's testicles away is not going to fix learned behaviors. It's going to continue until you start training the dog. Your dog marking and things like that are not going to be fixed. Well, with that being said, marking is actually— so when a dog urinates, it urinates to relieve itself. But when a dog is urinating on things to mark its territory, There's some science based on the odor, and it's actually not a territorial thing as much as it is a communication. Yeah. So if a dog is— you take your dog on a walk, he pees on something, just a quick, quick little tinkle, it's leaving an odor there to communicate to the other dogs that pass by. That's all it is. It— there was a study done where dogs were left in— multiple dogs were left in a run together. And they actually found that when they're left together in a larger environment like that, they're less likely to mark because communication can be from one dog to another. But when dogs are left alone, they're more likely to mark, to mark for the next dog, hey, You know, whatever the communication is between dogs, like I said, we can't talk to dogs before, but whatever the communication is between dogs that goes on, it's an opportunity for them to talk to whatever dog has been there, whatever dog's gonna come back, whatever that looks like.

That kind of makes me curious of what it actually is, cuz we'll have two dogs down on the ground and they'll just like back and forth mark the same spot. That kind of, it just makes me curious what it actually means.

That is what we call a pissing match. No pun intended. As always, if you've got any questions, feel free to comment. If you do not already, please like and subscribe. Thank you for joining the Source Podcast. Enjoy your night.