Running a Working Dog Kennel | SOURCE

Hello everyone, welcome to The Source Podcast. I'm Simon here coming live from Custom K9 Unlimited G1, and I'll be your host today. And I am joined by two very special people, part of our staff, and that is one of our trainers, Brandon, and one of our wonderful kennel techs, Madison. How you guys doing today?

I'm wonderful.

Madison, it's your first time on the podcast. Are you nervous?

Yes, I'm very nervous.

All right, well, what did I tell you earlier?

To not be scared.

Yeah, stop being scared. All right, it's not a big deal.

Okay, thanks, Simon.

Just a little bit of words of encouragement, right?

Yep, I'm encouraged.

Brandon, how's your day been?

It's been great, I can't complain. Yeah, another day working dogs.

Yeah, it looks like you got beat up. What happened there?

Yeah, I got, uh, what is known as ghee burn.

Yeah, so you've been walking around with the welts in your eye. Everyone thought you got beat up, but I guess you just wanted to brag about how you do jiu-jitsu. And that's awesome, Brandon. We love extracurricular activities here, and I always encourage my staff to go out and expand what they do. It doesn't just always have to be about dogs, but, you know, definitely if I'm ever in a dangerous situation, I hope I see you sliding across the ground to come help me, right?

I'll butt scoot all the way across the ground.

That's awesome. I figured you'd be a butt scooter. You don't look like you pass guard very often. So we got Madison here, and Madison, I want you to introduce yourself.

I'm Madison. I have been working with dogs for about 5 years, and primarily it was in kind of a doggy daycare setting, so just like pet boarding, stuff like that. So this is my second time working at a training facility, but my first time working with like official working dogs, police dogs, stuff like that.

Okay, so that, that's a pretty big jump going from the pet dog world to the working dog world, huh?

Yeah, it really is.

So it's been a big transition for you, would you agree?

A lot of people that own or work at doggy daycare facilities don't have, you know, as much knowledge about dogs and just kind of what dogs are capable of. And so you have people just kind of letting the dogs, you know, go wherever, do whatever. They don't really know the body language, kind of like the first aid stuff. And so just in my first 2 months here, Deb, the kennel master, she taught me basically everything I know. And I have learned so much just— and I've been here for about 6 months now, and I have learned more in the 6 months than I have in about 5 years of working with dogs. And I think that is a little bit sad but also very impressive to Deb and just this establishment in general.

Yeah, and we don't mean to glaze on Deb. I appreciate a lot of the hard work that Deb does put into the kennels. This is all lies. This is all off the record.

Oh, I was being serious.

Deb has a gun underneath the table right now pointed at Simon.

Yeah, no, but I'm thoroughly impressed with everything that Deb does down in the kennels and how well she manages it, because as you can see, during some days it does get pretty hectic down there. So you had mentioned that it seems like in the pet industry per se—

was that a good term for it?

Yeah, it's a little more carefree than our kennels down here, would you say?

Yeah.

Oh yeah. What do you think that's a result of?

For a lack of a better word, probably just ignorance. And, you know, people know like kind of the basics, like, oh, you shouldn't leave a dog in a hot car, or dogs need water, and just kind of basic stuff like that. They know the basics, but they don't know, like, hey, you should probably— or you need to wait 40 minutes after a dog has had either a training session or a vigorous exercise time before they can eat, or else that might cause bloat. You need to wait 10 minutes after exercise to give them water, and like wait 20 minutes after they eat, you know, just because of bloat. And like, no one at one of the jobs that I worked at, nobody knew about that. Um, and so me with my little knowledge of that had to explain like, oh, like dogs can, you know, their stomachs can flip and all that stuff. And obviously now that I'm a little bit more educated, like I didn't even know just everything about bloat and what can cause it, what to do if a dog does go through it, and heat stress. And again, ignorance on my part for not knowing this, but like, I didn't know that dogs could go through heat stress in the winter or like in an air-conditioned setting just because they rile themselves up. I had no clue. And that's another thing for certain, you know, doggy daycare places. The dogs are obviously running around exercising every single day for hours, and most of them don't even know signs of heat stress. And that's extremely dangerous, especially with pets. But like, that's for some people, like, that is their child, that is their baby, and your ignorance is going to get someone's baby killed because you don't know what you're doing.

Absolutely. And you know, sometimes people don't— aren't aware of those risks until they happen, right? And a lot A lot of what we do is because some of those common injuries occur, especially with the caliber of dogs that we have and the kind of intense training that we put them through. So it's, a lot of it is just based off of our experience. And one thing that Deb does a really good job of, and I'm giving more kudos to Deb, and we're gonna sit here and just love on Deb this entire podcast because of the wonderful training she's provided you and other individuals. It's stuff that we base off of our experience because they've happened before, and you— we want to be as prepared as possible when those things happen. And anytime we do have an incident, we review it as well and make sure that the proper procedures were taken at that time. And, you know, it's a common saying, but you don't want to get caught with your pants down, right?

I don't think I've heard that saying.

You've never heard that saying? You've never been caught with your pants down? Nope. I think I shared the story, was it with you? About me getting caught with my pants down. Yeah, one of my drill instructors caught me with my pants down. It was the first time I had to poop at boot camp, and it was like 2 weeks into it, and we only had 300 seconds to poop, and I went for it. And what ended up happening is that 300 seconds ran out, and then the drill instructor came in. And boot camp, there's no doors in the stalls, so it's just an open door, and they came in and he started yelling at me with my pants down, and I felt the smallest I've ever felt. And then he went in the stall next to me and saw that it was clogged, so he made me get up and threw a plunger at me, and I had to plunge that toilet that was stuck and get it unstuck. So that's what it means to get caught with your pants down. So, as you know, we base a lot of that off of our experience, and of course we want to be prepared for anything that arises, and and, you know, there's injuries that occur. You've seen the type of training, you've sat in and witnessed some of it. So my next question is, and believe it or not, Madison, we kind of have a similar background. Did you know that?

I didn't. Simon, tell me.

No? Okay, well, I started my career with dogs working at a pet hotel. Oh. So I'm pretty familiar with that. I actually worked at the PetSmart Pets Hotel when I was in high school. Oh. And they would put me behind this glass where it was like a little run and there was glass and customers would see me and I would monitor doggy day camp. And when dogs would act up, they told me to spray them. And yeah, and I never got training on any of those things that we've been fortunate to have training from, from the wonderful Deborah Clark. So yeah, I started out in the same kind of industry. Now I know what led to me wanting to— obviously it's been over 10 years since I was in the pet industry, but what led to what led to you making that transition from, hey, I'm going to work with pet dogs, to let me get some experience working with working dogs?

It was actually one lady that I worked for. She was a trainer, and she had a few working dogs that, you know, she trained herself. And it was really— it was just fascinating to me watching her work and watching the dogs work and seeing how much they loved it. And just seeing how great, you know, they can be when they have, you know, the right training in the right direction. Because my personal dog, I got him from a doggy daycare that also did training, and they did not do training in a way that I thought was appropriate for him. And So he was— had a lot of anxiety problems because of that and said that he was untrainable. And obviously I disagree with that. And so, you know, seeing her work with my personal dog and seeing how, you know, teaching me how to take the right steps to get him trained and seeing her work with her own dogs and other people's dogs That really led me into wanting to get more into this field because honestly, I feel like when a dog is trained, it has a better life condition, if that makes sense, because they have more of a purpose. And it's not just this little couch ornament that you just let out and feed every now and then.

That's really insightful. And, you know, I think as a trainer myself, you know, sometimes dogs struggle not only with just being able to read people but reading their environment. And that's what we see out of a lot of pets, especially pets that are reactive. They just don't know how to react to the environment that's presented to them. And being able to train them and teaching them how to cope and handle certain situations is vital, like you said, to their well-being. So training is a very important aspect. I absolutely agree with that sentiment.

So you said, you know, you had a little bit of experience with seeing civilian dogs, if you will, for a lack of better terms, get trained. What are the biggest differences that you've noticed from civilian training to what we do here at Custom K9 Unlimited with working dogs? Now, we do still do, you know, client dogs, civilian dogs, things like that, but what do you think the biggest difference is you know, going from pet kennels, doggy daycare, things of that nature, into working dog kennel, working dog training. What do you think the biggest differences was for you?

I think one of the main differences is at CCU, you're not blind to the fact that even if it's— it is a civilian dog, or even if it is like a Belgian Malinois or a German Shepherd. Every dog can bite, and everyone here knows that and takes it seriously. And so there's no room for— I mean, obviously bites still happen, but, you know, you guys take the proper precautions for that and treat the dog, treat every dog like it is a dog that can and will bite you. And at some of the other places, you're having people get up in their face and rile them up and, you know, do all this stuff. And you can clearly see— even some videos, you just see these people doing stuff to their dog, and you just read the dog's body language, and you're like, that dog is gonna turn around and eat you. Because you don't know what you're doing to them. Like, you're not paying attention to how uncomfortable they are, and people just think, oh, sweet little golden retriever Dixie, she's not gonna do a thing. And yes, Dixie will.

You're right though, you know, I think some of it— and you mentioned it earlier— some of it is just ignorance. As we know, ignorance can be bliss, and I think ultimately it's just like you said, it's how you view the dog. I think we over here at Custom K9, whether it's in training or in kennels, we view the dog as an animal and they have a mind of their own. And it's not that we're careless or we're, you know, uncaring or loving for the dogs. We provide love and care to them. I think you'd agree with that.

Oh yes.

Well, we don't just love on them, put our faces near them.

We're not gonna give them kisses on the lips.

Who's kissing dogs on the lips?

Oh, no one, but I'm saying you don't kiss dogs on the lips.

You say like you're speaking from experience.

Do you kiss dogs on the lips?

Well, my sister has a boxer and his lip sticks out, and when he's sleepy, you just kiss the bottom lip.

That's gross.

Madison.

So you shouldn't be kissing dogs on the lips, especially when they're sleeping.

No, sleepy, not sleeping.

So that comment is not a representation of Custom K9, anything that's within our protocols, and I would not recommend that whatsoever.

But take it out, Maya, take it out.

No, keep it in there. It's—

his name is Jimmy.

He's very well, but you know, there is at times carelessness, and we have to understand that certain dogs do have boundaries, and you have to be able to read and understand those boundaries. And oftentimes when we let our guards down and push those boundaries, dogs do react. And like you mentioned, it could be a floppier dog. We actually have a chocolate lab. He's cute as can be, and if you touch his paws and you're not aware What ends up happening, Madison?

You get bit.

You get bit, right? So you definitely, you definitely want to be aware of those boundaries. You want to read that dog's body language, and ultimately it's, you know, dogs can feel anxious, dogs can feel scared, and they don't understand. They can't contextualize things the way that we do. We may think that we're just loving on the dog, but the dog is perceiving it as, hey, I'm scared, and you keep approaching in my area and I have no other way to react other than maybe something that's worked in the past, which is lashing out. And then what ends up happening? They lash out, they bite, Madison cries, screams, and leaves, and then the dog learns a new behavior. And then it has to come to a trainer like myself or Brandon.

Let's kind of flip it back into what goes on a little bit more in a kennel because that seems seems to be a little bit more of where your experience is versus talking about training dogs. As far as canine behaviors go, what do you think that one of the biggest or the most notable differences are from working in a pet kennel to a working dog kennel?

In the kennels that I have personally been in, it is a lot less people interaction. And more dog and dog interaction. And so, you know, you just kind of let the dogs out and let them do their thing and you're just kind of there, you know, making sure fights don't break out, which they always do. Doesn't matter if your dog has never bitten another dog in their life. If they meet a dog that they don't like— dogs are just like people. There are certain dogs that your dog does not like. There are certain people that I do not like, and I'm not gonna go near them. That dog is not gonna go near them. But if the dog that they don't like comes up to them, what do you think is gonna happen? They're gonna be in a fight. And, you know, they just kind of let them do whatever. And obviously, kind of like I said before, they don't really know how to read dogs' body language. And so if a dog is scared out of its mind, which in all kennel settings there are going to be anxious dogs no matter what. And the only difference is here with working dogs, there are ways that you can work with them. Kind of like a dog that we have now, you know, she was anxious about certain things, um, but the more that they worked with her and showed her like Hey, like, this is not that bad. This is not that scary. Obviously, I'm not there when they're doing training, but just seeing her in the kennel setting, taking her out, feeding her, you know, she's a lot more open. She's a lot less fearful. You know, she's running around more and she's just a lot happier. And that can— that just helps on training side But for kennels, most of the time they don't have a trainer there day to day to help that dog get over that anxiety. And instead what they do is they try to bond with the dog to get them to like them.

So I think the reason we— I'm sorry, that was so long— why we ask our kennel staff not to bond with the dog is because ultimately there's training that goes into that dog and the dog has to understand, you know, we can't carelessly praise and love on the dog without understanding some of the aspects of conditioning. And we don't want to reinforce certain things, like for example, dogs jumping on us, right? So tell me about some strategies you use when dealing with some dogs that may be aggressive or may have the potential to be aggressive. Tell me about some of those.

I think the first thing you should probably do is, number one, just kind of— when you're looking at that dog outside of the kennel, just kind of read how they're reacting to you. And just kind of— some of the dogs that we had here not too long ago, you know, you go to feed them and you just kind of stand there for a minute and obviously they start growling at you, stuff like that, that's when you're like, "Mm, okay, maybe not." But we also have another dog who is aggressive that I can feed no problem because he's trained, and you just tell him— you put him in a down position, you tell him to stay, and you slip the food in there. "Okay," and shut the door and you're done. But with you know, dogs that you have to handle no matter what, obviously taking the time— if you have someone with more experience that's more comfortable with the dog, if you're not comfortable, let them handle it. But always slip first, keep them at a distance with the leash. Don't give them an opportunity to grab onto you or grab onto anyone else. We kind of the name, just kind of a con— a positive control position, you know, two hands on the leash at all times. One of the points that in training that you get when you get a job here, it's never get comfortable with the dog. And so with all of the dogs, you have to kind of, like you said earlier, you treat them like they will do something. You know what they are capable of. They are animals, and so you have to treat them accordingly. And so always positive control, two points of contact with the leash, and walking them, never putting yourself in a compromising position with them, not letting your face get near their face, stuff like that. Just always kind of having that guard up. However, if there's any fear that's going on in you, you should not be handling that dog because the dog is going to pick up on it and that's going to make it a bad situation because they can feel that you're scared. And what's that going to tell them? Either, oh, she's scared, so I'm going to be scared. Oh, she's scared, I'm gonna try to get away with something. And we kind of saw that happen in a situation before.

Yeah, and there are some dogs you don't handle, right? Correct?

Yeah.

And what do you think the reason for that is? Do you think you just don't have enough experience yet, or you— is it the lack of experience or the lack of knowledge, or just that you don't think you're ready for it at this time?

I think a little bit of not enough experience, and I just don't think that I'm ready because I don't want to think that I know how to do something and then I do it and I do something wrong, and then the dog, you know, attacks me or attacks someone else because I just— I was just ignorant about about the situation. And ignorance is the silent killer, you know.

Yeah, and it's definitely—

ignorance is bliss.

I think you're talking about complacency kills. But, you know, looking forward in the future, do you think that maybe handling some of these dogs that maybe right now, you know, you're not too comfortable with— do you see it as a goal as maybe being able to sometime in the future handle some of these dogs? Is that something you'd like to see yourself doing?

Oh yeah, for sure.

What have you done to kind of prepare yourself for that?

Really kind of studying the handout that we get on the dog body language and what to do when a dog does come at you, and getting fight training with the trainers. Because even though it is scary being in that bite suit and seeing a dog dog that wants to bite you come at you, it's terrifying. But you learn a lot on how to handle the bite and what to do if you do get bit. And that's given me a lot more confidence in handling the dog that is biting someone in the bite suit, of course, handling the dog and seeing what to do if the dog has a leash on, what to do if it doesn't have a leash on, stuff like that. It's a very— it's a scary experience, but it is one that is gonna help you out in the long run.

Absolutely. And I think that's one of the unique things that Deborah has implemented for her kennel staff and in her training is actually giving you guys, in a safe controlled environment, we're not just, you know, letting dogs loose on you, but yeah. Through supervision and assistance and putting you through that, because even in the bite suit, like you mentioned, it's still pretty exhilarating, wouldn't you agree?

Yeah.

So, but it gives you that confidence when it does happen, you know, you know what to do. This time maybe there's a little more pain involved in it, but you at least know what to do in that situation, right?

Yeah.

And I think That's something that's absolutely invaluable because I can tell you from firsthand experience, seeing people get bit or getting bit yourself can be pretty shocking.

Yeah.

And it's not natural as a human to be mauled by another animal. And it's something that with muscle memory and actually being— having that experience in a situation like that, although it's controlled, that muscle memory kicks in and you're able to handle that situation confidently and hopefully safely. Now, so Madison, yeah, it's been fantastic doing this podcast with you, and there's one last question I want to ask you before we close down. Okay, Madison, what is the most rewarding aspect of working with dogs in I mean, obviously it's dogs.

Like, being surrounded by dogs is probably the best way to spend your day, in my opinion. That's the best way to spend your day. And, you know, kind of on the training side, seeing when a dog is going through training, seeing that moment when something just kind of clicks in them and they finally understand what they're supposed to be doing and they do it correctly, I just— that is just so like, I don't know, it just makes me really happy because it's like, yes, you got it.

Absolutely. But you know, I don't want you to think that all the dogs that we put out there, that we wouldn't be able to do it without you or Deborah and the rest of the kennel staff. And I always give you guys kudos because The way I see it, you guys are the front line. If we didn't have us as trainers, and Brandon I think would agree with this sentiment, if we didn't have you guys down there caring and making sure that those dogs are safe and well-fed and taken care of, everything that we would do wouldn't matter. Because if I got a dog that isn't in proper weight standards or, you know, has an infection or anything like that, I wouldn't be able to get them through training because one of the big aspects is they have to be comfortable. And, you know, that really speaks volumes about what you guys do, and we appreciate all the hard work that you guys do and the training that you guys go through because you might not see it, but it plays a big role in what we do and how we're able to operate. And I think that's just so important because anytime I— any dog gets hurt or has a boo-boo or has an issue, right, who do I go to?

It's the first thing we do, take a picture of it and send it to Deb, Madison, whoever's working.

Yeah, or we bring that dog down into the kennel because in all honesty You know, we do go through the training for first aid, but we get a lot of our straight answers and our confidence through you guys and Deb because you guys do play a big vital role. So Brandon, you got anything to add to that?

No, I think that like you just kind of said, having, having the kennel staff available, it just makes our job easier. We're able to come in, we're able to to get straight to work and then not have to worry about, you know, our dogs. We keep them on a relatively strict regimen, if you will. They're taken care of, and just having you guys available when any issues arise, or having you guys, you know, knocking out kennel care is a huge part of what we do on a daily basis. And it's kind of, you know, it allows us to focus on our side of of training and ensure that we're able to train in a proper manner, in a safe manner, because our dogs are taken care of.

Awesome.

Thank you for joining us today on The Source Podcast, all things working dogs. If you don't already, please like and subscribe to our YouTube, our Instagram. Stay tuned for on Tuesdays for our short sets that come out, and every Friday at noon our podcast are available.