Stop Waiting, Start Positioning: Alignment & Career Growth for Nurses - The Modern Nurse Way!

Thank you for joining me for another episode of the Nursing Strategies for Success podcast, brought to you by The Nurse Speak, a show where we rally some of our nation's greatest nurse leaders, educators, experts, and advocates to tackle some of the greatest challenges that the nursing profession faces. My name is Damion Jenkins, and I'm your host for the show. So sit back, relax, and get ready to learn that nurses can do anything. All right, Em, thank you so much for being on the Nursing Strategies for Success podcast. Why don't you take a moment to introduce yourself to the listeners? Let them know a little bit about who you are, where you started in nursing and where you are today.

All right. Yes. Thank you so much for having me on the show. I'm so ecstatic to be here and excited for everybody that's listening to just hear, hear me out, hear me out. So I started in nursing, gosh, back in the day, not too long ago though, about 15 years ago I started, I was a medic in the Air Force and from there I got into LPN, got into RN, and then I got my master's degree in nursing education. Excuse me. And, um, through all that, I've worked home health, uh, case management, hospice, pediatric and adult, which I really loved, um, psych nursing, which really every patient is a psych patient, um, and then ended up in teaching. So the last couple of years I was teaching at Emory University and in their, uh, mental health nursing department, which I really love. So that's a little bit about my nursing journey, Really, in a nutshell, um, because really everybody's nursing journey is kind of way more drawn out than that.

I mean, not, not necessarily so. It sounds similar except the military piece, which is really cool. So first of all, thank you for your service.

Yeah, of course.

And then thank you for your service as a nurse, right? Because we know sometimes nursing feels militant in many ways. It's a very disciplined profession. Um, so yeah, where are you now in nursing?

Yeah, so now I run Modern Nurse Fest with my co-founder Jen Crowe. So we are spearheading this awesome movement, and so there's a lot of fundraising, there's a lot of calls, there's a lot of contracts, there's a lot of relationship building. Um, so it's a little bit of a different side of nursing that we kind of don't really talk about, like the entrepreneurship side. Um, so I'm really diving into that, and I love it because Like, who doesn't want to put on— it's, it's almost like having to put on weddings.

Yeah.

Um, it's kind of what I— it's kind of what it compares to because you're trying to find like caterers, you're trying to find vendors, you're trying to find all these people to come together for just a couple days. So although it's only 2 days with a gala, you know, preparation takes months, um, and even a year ahead of time. So that's what I'm currently doing and I'm absolutely loving it.

Amazing. So you've had a few Modern Nurse Fest sessions so far? We have. Yeah.

Yeah. The first one started online with just myself, me and I, in October of 2024. We had over 300 nurses from around the world attend. And that's when I was like, verified market analysis done. This is a good product to keep on going with. And I didn't really know what that looked like, but Jen Crowe was one of my speakers at the first Modern Nurse Fest, and she's up in Alaska. And she came back to me that December and was like, hey, can we bring this to Alaska? And I was just like, yes. I didn't even think about it. I was just like, yes, let's go. Yeah, let's do it. So, yeah. So we had the last one, and then we'll be in Florida coming up in February. So it's coming up.

Excellent. So Florida in February. And then I think you have a whole itinerary for several other places. You might as well say it now. Where you planning on being?

Yeah, of course.

Yeah.

So we're in California, then we go up to Alaska in June, and then in September we'll be in Houston, Texas, and we end with Modern Haunted Fest in Boston at the end of October. So bring your costumes. I'm going to be the Pink Power Ranger. Um, yeah, so it's going to be a really good time. Like classes like, uh, Poisons and Potions. Um, so it will be along the Halloween themed Fest.

So it'll be really, really cool. Yeah, very cool. Awesome. So you've done quite a few things, you know, you've seen a lot. You've been in lots of different positions as a nurse. You've been in education as a nurse, and that really opens up a whole new world of nursing and gives you a much stronger, I think, perception of what the potential of the profession can be, right? Because when we're in the thick of it, we're only really seeing our tasks. We're only seeing the issues. We're only seeing the burnout. The stress, the, you know, moral injuries, you know, the things that sometimes chase us away from certain roles in nursing. But then when you get into education, for me anyway, it kind of reignited my passion for nursing. It strengthened my understanding of what the potential of the nurse was, and it really just lit a fire under my butt to maximize and optimize my efforts to help others more than just the tasks, right? To actually transform perform systems, workflows, processes, perceptions, you know, mindset, leadership skills, all of these things which they don't teach in nursing school for a good reason, because the program would be 10 years. Um, but, you know, nurses are trained to perform, uh, skills, you know, fee-for-service skills to help these businesses, which we know as hospitals, nursing homes, home care agencies, and such forth, be successful. Right, to render care to patients who need it, but to also maximize the profitability and long-term success of these organizations. And we know as educators, we also learn that sometimes the curriculum is tailored to these big institutions to ensure their success, but not necessarily the long-term professional success of the nurse. Absolutely right. And so as an educator, kind of getting in that space and being kind of met with these realities where I'm really like helping these people meet their career goals, really helping them to master these skills and the critical thinking and all of these things, but then seeing them crash and burn like shortly after they get out of the program. This is where I really started to kind of lean into a lot of the, what I like to call, essential skills that other people will coin soft skills. And I just think that this is where nursing needs a lot more attention and a lot more finesse when it comes to supporting the profession as a whole. So this was kind of like my wake-up call. This was like the thing that I wanted to work on and start changing. So what was the thing for you, being that you've seen all these different things, and I'm sure you've had your struggles and you've helped other people with their struggles. So what's the theme or the problem that you saw in nursing that you wanted to start working towards?

Yeah, that's such a great question because it's so multifaceted. But really, when I think about it and what I definitely saw throughout nursing, even in the military, just in healthcare in general, it's just the lack of emotional intelligence. And that stems from a lot of nurses don't know their ACE score. Score, which is Adverse Childhood Experiences. Yeah. Uh, but nurses a lot of time render on the higher end, like 7 and up, um, and, and the threshold is 10. So, um, you know, nurses are coming into a profession that already is, uh, nervous system dysregulated, and they're bringing their nervous system that's super dysregulated. So I kept seeing this trend, and, um, when I worked with students especially, they would be so frazzled even if they didn't pass a clinical checkoff, like inserting an IV. They would get so frazzled, they crying in the hallway and I'm like, y'all, what is going on? And it's not just that checkoff, it's that they have all this fluff work to do, they have this presentation to do, they are, you know, in a group where they're the only one pulling the weight of the group. You know, it's so multifaceted. So that's really why I created the field of somatic nursing because our nervous systems need a lot of help. And many of the time, which is really interesting, most diseases, disorders, chronic conditions, even mental health disorders are from stress. It's just a buildup of stress, like heart disease, arthra— I mean, it's just stress on our bodies. So I was like, okay, I need to deep dive into this. And after, um, when I was in the Air Force, I used my GI money to go to yoga school. So I'm a certified yoga teacher, and a massage therapy school. And because I just wanted to learn more about the body, was so like fascinated by the body and we don't get taught about the body. We really don't go deep. They just go surface level. Like in nursing, we just learn about the cranial nerves, but we don't know about the whole nervous system and how it truly does affect us and like how can we work through the nervous system. So while I was teaching at Emory, I wrote, it's called Peace, Love, and Self Love in Nursing. And it's literally like, It's just a fun workbook for nurses, but it dives into like boundary setting and how to say no and how to not go on all these volunteer committees, right? So it's everything that you wish you should have learned in nursing school, like you said, otherwise it would take like 10 years. Yeah, yeah. But I think that's the main thing is just, it's emotional intelligence. And once you have that, you do have the ability to say no. You do have the ability to be like, okay, this job right now is very toxic. And it's not for me and I need to move on from that instead of being burned out, you know.

Yeah, amazing. So for the listeners, Em held up the book quickly and kind of flipped through a few pages and it really looks fun. And I will be ordering mine as soon as we finish this recording and certainly put it, you know, in the show notes of the episode so people can check it out because it looks really cool, simplified, colorful. Easy to understand and has some really great strategies in there, which I just saw quickly. So awesome. So yeah, emotional intelligence, being able to regulate our nervous system, being able to manage conflict without getting stressed out or overwhelmed, being able to handle the crushing workloads that many of us have, whether we're still in a clinical space, an academic space, whether we are still trying to figure it out, whether we're entrepreneur, you know, multimillionaire running big companies, whatever it is, being able to manage your stress in a productive and healthy way is so essential. And there's so many different ways to do that. So, you know, I know just from our prior conversations and being in your network now for the past year, I know that you use many modalities in order to manage stress. Stress. Some of it is just self-awareness. Some of it is understanding the things that set you off so you can try to avoid those triggers or maybe develop strategies for managing those triggers when they're inevitable, because that happens. Sometimes we can't avoid our stressors. Um, I don't believe avoidance is one of the best, um, techniques because it doesn't allow you to build a skill set to deal with it. And I feel like dealing with it in a way that's helpful and can keep your focus, especially as a nurse, I'm at the bedside, like you still have to focus on your patients and the vital sign trends and the information coming in at you and you can't avoid it. Um, so what are some of the techniques that you've learned along the way to just help people? And, you know, let's focus maybe on the 3 different tiers, student, who's new and they have no idea what they're doing yet, maybe the professional nurse who's just feeling overwhelmed by all of the noise coming in, and maybe the more seasoned nurse who is transitioning into entrepreneurship or currently runs a business and they're being overwhelmed by the different challenges that they're having that cause them stress. What are some of the modalities that help at these different levels?

Yeah, that's a great question, and I love how you did the tiered approach because Although we are all nurses, there are different levels and stressors, right, that come with that. So yeah, so starting off with students, the first thing, when I worked with students, the first thing I would have them do would be, it's called a somatic care plan. And it's just really simple. You can take out a piece of paper or you can even just list it in your head. It's basically what makes you feel good and what makes you not feel good.

Yeah.

And so do more stuff that makes you feel good. And, um, that might be, you know, in the not feel good area, it might be like going out with all of my co-students after we pass our Pharm test and we get absolutely drunk. Yeah, that probably doesn't feel— it feels probably good and great in the moment, but you know, that next day it's like, no, why did I just do that? Now I have to work a psych clinical rotation for 12 hours, right? And you're not your best self, so I think with students, the, the best thing is to figure out what you really like to do and what you don't like to do, and that's gonna also transfer into the job that you'll be taking.

Yeah.

Um, so for instance, one of the students really loved being outdoors. They really loved holistic things, modalities, yoga, massage, and all these things. And I was like, okay, well then maybe bedside is probably not a good idea for you. Maybe you wanna go into like a aesthetics or more in holistic caring, right? Because that kind of goes along with Human Design as well. If you're not on your true north star path, you're going to get burned out. And that's like a true sign that your soul's like, stop what you're doing. Um, so that's what I would say for the students is just figuring out like what makes you feel good and what doesn't make you feel good and go with what makes you feel good. Healthy choices, right? Like, yeah, not like drinking with friends makes me feel good.

And then not just temporary fixes, right? We want like, this is going to feel good for a while, right? So excellent. So for students, we have that somatic care planning. Excellent.

Yeah, somatic care planning. And then I'd say for this, the nurse that, you know, maybe has been in a couple years that might be reaching that state of burnout, is kind of to use that same situation with the somatic care plan, but take it a step further and be like, what do I like in my my job, and what do I not like in my job? Because you're just kind of building upon what is currently going on. And obviously, when we do a lot of more self-insight and we talk to ourselves and we care for ourselves, our bodies, our minds, our souls are going to scream out what they need and what they don't need. You just have to be aware of those signs. And so a lot of times when nurses reach that point of burnout, they haven't been listening to their body that's been screaming with back pain, with headaches, with the chills at 3:00 AM on night shift, right? These are all bodily symptoms that we have to tune and listen to because they're trying to direct us either out of that situation or bring alarm bells to like, hey, you need to navigate this a lot differently because otherwise you're going to be a patient in the bed that you're serving currently. Right. So, yeah. So, I would say that would be a good thing is what you don't like, what you do like in your job because that can give you really good insight.

Yeah. And what if the person that's maybe a couple years in, still in a clinical setting, or maybe trying to navigate different specialties to find their happy spot because they haven't found it yet, you know, they're, they're probably ticking off those checklists. What do I like? What do I don't like? And there's like, this is more of a dislike than I like, so I'm going to move to something new. You know, what advice do you have for them? Because I bounced around a lot and I was having a hard time finding my happiness. And, you know, and I think a lot of people do that hoping that the grass is greener on the other side. But the truth that I found is it's not. Each different specialty in each different space is going to have its own new set of challenges. But there's always kind of these arching themes of the main things that we don't like. So, you know, for the nurse that maybe is not interested in entrepreneurship or doing something nontraditional and they want to still make the traditional space work and they just like a lot of it is stuff I don't like. What would be a strategy you give for them?

Yeah, absolutely. So that is a lot of the majority of nurses that I coach.

Yeah.

Is that they want to exceed and excel in the leadership space in like administration or even reach the C-suite level.

Yeah.

And a lot of time it's looking at the strengths, like what do you bring to the table? Because a lot of time as humans we say what we don't like, right? And we're constantly like, I don't like this, I don't like that. And it's like, What do you like? What, what's going to bring to the space that you can bring your strengths? And also, are there ways that you can do mentoring? Or like, if there's a person— I've had lots of nurses that are great leaders and great mentors, but they don't get the opportunity within the hospital setting to be a great leader or a great mentor. So even for that, I say, hey, if you still want to build in the hospital, but you really love and you're passionate about coaching or mentoring, maybe take a PRN or something where you're maybe coaching students, working in a, you know, clinical setting like that, or even coaching them on the outside. There's tons of nurses that do that already. So, definitely hone in on what your strengths are because I think a lot of times we focus on what we're lacking, and especially within the hospital setting, you'll have bosses and leadership say like, you're not doing this right. Why don't you do this? Why can't you do this? And it's like, but I'm doing all these things. Why aren't you taking notice? Right? So, I think it's important for those nurses to be very aware of their strengths and what they do bring to the table and constantly put that in front of the leadership and to show them what you're capable of. Because a lot of times they're too worried about the business, they're worried about numbers and analytics, they're not even seeing your strengths. Whatsoever. So it's important to voice and advocate for yourself.

Absolutely. And then how about the person, you know, similar to us that have businesses and have all these different competing obligations and different relationships we're building? And, you know, what would be a strategy you give for them?

Yeah, so I would say be okay with making mistakes and a lot of them. Yeah, no, it's a playground. It's literally like entrepreneurship is an adult playground. So if you're thinking about going into entrepreneurship, know that you're going to get a lot more nos than yeses. Yeah, no, for sure. You know, like, know that you're going to mess up and like, that is the fun of it is, you know, one product that you are focusing on like might flop and you might have to pivot. And that's the great thing about being a nurse is We know how to pivot. We can take changes as they come. We can do all these amazing things that I think definitely translates into entrepreneurship. So I would say for entrepreneurs or nurses that want to go into entrepreneurship, don't do something that like you're— you can do something that you're passionate about, but make sure that brings in money. And a lot of times when we're passionate about something, it's because we love something. We're not actually focusing on the customer. Where it needs to flop. We have to focus on the customer and what they want, not particularly what we want as a person, because that might not make us money. And I've seen that a lot of time with nurses. They're very passionate about holistic health or something that they're really into. And sometimes it doesn't translate into gaining customers. It just gains just air. It doesn't really gain anything. Yeah.

It might become a nice kind of like online portfolio, right? Or maybe kind of like a personal or professional journal of your accomplishments or the things that you like to speak about or do. But yeah, if it's not generating income, you know, this is the harsh reality about business, is if it's not generating income at a certain level, then it's not a business, and you can't really call it a business. It's a side hustle, it's a gig, it's a hobby, whatever you want to call it, but it's not really a viable business. And Coming into that financial intelligence, I think as an entrepreneur, someone interested in business, that's kind of the first piece that I found that was necessary to level up. Because if you don't have the foundational understanding of how it all works and how you're supposed to, you know, allocate your funds, what kind of growth projections you would expect to see. And it's okay to start with just, hey, I'm going to sell lemonade on the corner today and see how that goes. But the goal of a business is to then amplify that and double or triple or quadruple or 10 times that amount in a certain period of time. And if you can't do that, like you said, then you pivot and you try a different strategy or a different product or in addition to that product, and you just keep putting those feelers out and those fingers and those extensions of yourself. So that way you have lots of opportunities to make income. And so speaking about that, um, I just want maybe if you could share your story that you shared at NNBA, um, about how you started making more money dealing in non-nursing related things than focusing on nursing related things. And I just want people to understand that sometimes that's the reality of being a business-oriented individual. You have to get out of your comfort zone or do something completely different that has nothing to do with your primary trade to provide a service or a product that other people are going to be interested in, because you don't want to limit yourself to just that one thing, right? So can you share how you, you made some money by doing a work— like, what was it, woodworking, like workshop, right?

Yeah, it was a PDF. It was a woodworking PDF, and So I got into, so I've always been an entrepreneur. Like, I mean, since I was in high school, I've always tried to figure out how to make money. And I was actually in my doctoral program for education at Vanderbilt and I got a ping for $500 on my phone and I was like, what in the shit is this?

Someone just gave me $500.

I was like, what is this $500 for? And what I had did was I did some market analysis and I was just like, I'm going to just try this because I have I took several classes in digital products and I really was more on the path of like, how do I make money? Like, I'm tired. I have all these certifications and I have all these degrees, but they're not really making me the money that I know that I can make.

Yeah.

And I was like, I'm going to play around with this. And, um, I used a little bit of AI, used a little bit of research from the internet, and I created a 25-page PDF about woodworking and like I have no background in woodworking, by the way. I took woodworking in high school, but you know, nothing like— I haven't built houses or anything. And I put this PDF together because I had an education background. So I knew how to put curriculum together. I knew how to put courses together. And I was like, I'm just going to make this and sell it for $47 and see how it goes. And so what I did was I built a Systeme.io. It's— and you can do email campaigns. It's a free platform and I was like, I'm just going to learn how to do this and we're going to play around with it. So I learned how to do like email campaigns on my own. I learned how to make a landing page, a sales page, right? All in the glory of YouTube University. And, um, and then yeah, I got that ping one day and I was like, this is crazy. How is this even happening? And it was one thing after another, sale, sale. Like people were buying this woodworking PDF like crazy. So. I took it a step further and I was like, okay, I'm just going to create a basic course and sell it for $199. And I did that through the email campaign. So I explained this course over a 30, 30-set email campaign. And so every time they got the email, there was something to click on, whether it was the PDF again or the course. And, you know, it takes about 7 to 13 times for somebody to actually make an informed decision of you repeating it in front of them. So when I knew the sales psychology behind what I was doing, which is so important, and a lot of nurses don't know or understand that piece, you can sell so many things if the messaging is right and if what you are selling, somebody need, if it solves a problem, people are going to buy that. Yep. Um, so I dropped out of my doctoral program and I was like, I'm good with not getting another $100K in debt because I know I'm not going to get paid that as a doctor.

For sure. And you know, there's no businesses out there nowadays that will pay off those debts, right? That doesn't exist anymore.

It does not. So yeah, so that was when I was like, wow, that is such a cool passive income. So then I was like, where and how else can I make money? And so I started getting into affiliate marketing, high ticket and low ticket and supplements. Supplements are great for affiliates because, you know, people are going to keep coming back and that's just current, like, revenue that just keeps coming in your pocket by just sharing the link. So it was like absolutely mind-boggling at first. Like, how in the hell am I just sitting here sleeping, making money? But once you know that there is no ceiling to how much money you can make, but because I think we're, you know, we're capped as nurses, like, you're going to make $80 grand a year, you're going to make $60 grand, you're going to make $150 grand a year as a nurse. There's not a mindset of like, how can I exceed that? And it's just one income stream.

Yeah.

So I was all about like, how can I make a bunch of different money coming in at different times to support all the amazing things that I want to do in life? And yeah, it just led me on a journey. And a lot of the money that brings in today is affiliate income and passive income streams that I've just set up.

Amazing.

It just, it's just, it's crazy. It's, um, you know, I didn't grow up like, I, my parents were just normal middle class. I didn't grow up like wealthy or anything, but there was always a sense of like struggle there. And I just never wanted to feel that, um, feel that struggle. So I was like, I gotta learn some money education. I gotta learn some financial education. I gotta learn how to do sales psychology. Um, You know, so a lot of wonderful learning, and I feel like I have a doctorate now, um, in sales psychology, entrepreneurship. I mean, I know how to build websites, I know how to do all sorts of things on the, the back end. Um, so yeah, and that's my doctorate.

And for the people— and for the people listening, how long did it take you to say, from when you really was like, all right, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna learn as much as I can so I can build as fast as I can— and I know it's ongoing, But where, like, how many years was it from when you had the ideas and you started to like see that you could do things to being independent from having to work per se for like an organization as a nurse where you can have enough money coming in to where you don't have to actually go and work as an employee somewhere? How long did that take you?

Yeah, so that was about 3 and a half years.

Yeah. So that's pretty fast. Yeah, I think pretty fast. So amazing. So, you know, for everyone listening, whether you're a nursing student, you're a nurse at the bedside trying to figure out what your next move is, or you are someone who's like, I know I'm kind of over the traditional healthcare system and I want to do something different and maximize or optimize my skill set to help people in a way that better aligns with my passion, my purpose, and what I want and deserve. I think Em is someone you should connect with. Of course, you know, everyone knows that we have a strong network. Of nurses in business who have many different products and services to support you along your way, um, myself included. Many other people at the NMBA, I've interviewed many of them, and/or you can find them connected with me on socials like LinkedIn, things like that. So, Em, you have a lot of products and services. I've kind of been peeking around and checking out all the different things you do. Um, really, really cool stuff happening here. I'm constantly building new things as well, so I'll probably be, you know, picking your mind about some things here in the near future. But, um, if people want to connect with you, how can they do so? What are the different avenues that they can connect with you?

Yeah, yeah. So I would say probably professionally, just hit me up on LinkedIn. It's Emily Knife. Um, and then you can just follow along at modernnursefest.org. It's our huge festival, and that's probably the best way to actually meet me in person. Yeah. Um, and then, yeah, just you can email me at emily@ nursesfornurses.org if you have some pertinent questions, or if you just want to hook up and hang out, I'm happy to, to help you on your way.

Excellent. And so for the nursesfornurses.org, that probably has links to all of the products and services you offer for the nurse-to-nurse level. You know, if there's a B2B type situation, then they would have to connect with you through your email and/or LinkedIn, most likely. But yeah, amazing. I'm so excited to see how Modern Nurse Fest continues to grow. I really was hankering to go to Alaska, but I'm like, Alaska is really far and expensive to get to for a 2-day thing. I was like, maybe I'll just like wait it out and see what the next one's like. But you're right. So back to the point about, you know, the 7 to 13 times that someone has to see something and hear this messaging before they're even interested, sometimes before they even make that first click, right? It happens to all of us. It's normal human psychology because we are designed to be skeptical. We're designed to be cautious. We're designed to be careful so that way we don't get hurt or taken advantage of. And so, you know, when we are trying to sell to people, even if we're trying— it's crazy how the psychology works— even if we're trying to give something away for free, like completely free. People are like, oh, I don't know. I don't know about that. I'm like, yeah, what do you mean you don't know? It's free. Like, why wouldn't you take it and then discover its glory? You know? And if you don't use it, or if it's not valuable to you, who cares? It was free. It's very interesting, the psychology of how to get people included and involved and to follow and to even be interested. Um, you know, we have a lot of competition out there with AI and with these big social media platforms and these big companies that are literally pouring millions of dollars into marketing and messaging. And but it doesn't have to be that level in order to gain that attention. And all you have to do is connect with a few like-minded individuals who have either seen your work, met you in person, benefited from something you've done for them, And word of mouth, I find still today, is the most powerful way to get people to start joining your network, to start following you, to start asking you for help and/or buying your products and services, right? So yeah, amazing. So I'm excited to see more, and I'm hoping to attend at least one or two of these Nurse Fests coming up in the near future. And Emily, thank you so much for being on the Nursing Strategies for Success podcast. I'll have all of the ways that people can connect with you in the show notes of the episode, and I look forward to seeing you soon.

Yes, you too. Thank you.

My pleasure. Have a great day.

You too.

And that concludes episode 10 of season 4 of the Nursing Strategies for Success podcast with this episode's guest, Emily Knife. We hope that everything we shared for you in today's episode will inspire you, empower you, and motivate you to take charge of your own nursing destiny and align with your passion and purpose so that you can create the career that you want and deserve. All of the ways to connect with Emily will be in the show notes of this episode. And as always, if you have any questions about anything that we shared, feel free to visit thenursespeak.com and get in touch with me. I would love to have a conversation with you. So until next episode, take care, be well, and remember that nurses can do anything.