From Zero to Multi-Million: The Ukie Painting Success Story

Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast. The mission of this podcast is simple: to help you navigate the financial and tax aspects of starting, running, and scaling a professional painting business. From the brushes and ladders to the spreadsheets and balance sheets, we've got you covered. But before we dive in, a quick word of caution. While we strive to provide accurate and up-to-date financial and tax information, nothing you hear on this podcast should be considered as financial advice specifically for you or your business. We're here to share general knowledge and experiences, not to replace the tailored advice you get from a professional financial advisor or tax consultant. We strongly recommend you seeking individualized advice before making any significant financial decision.

Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the show where painting contractors learn how to boost profits, cut taxes, and build a business that works for them. I'm your host, Daniel Honan, CPA, Former painting business owner and your guide to mastering the numbers that drive success. Let's dive in and make your business more profitable one episode at a time. Today I'm super excited to speak with Vital and Andre out of North Carolina. They have an amazing painting business, Yuki Painting, out of the Charlotte area. So I'm super excited to jump in the conversation to hear more about their story. Welcome to the podcast, guys. How you doing?

Thank you, Daniel. Thank you for having us. Doing well.

Awesome.

Thank you, Daniel.

Absolutely. Glad, glad to have you guys on. And just to kind of give folks an understanding of where you're coming from, could you take me through how did you get started in the painting industry and what have been some major milestones along the way?

You want to get started?

Happy to share with you guys how we started. This is, uh, something that we Really would love to share with everyone. This is something that makes us a little bit excited when we share our story, because when we started, we started as just two guys without money, without skills, just our ambition to do something. And the idea came randomly to Andrei back in 2021, just let's— like, the idea was let's do some kind of business for both of us. And then Andrey approached and mentioned, hey, let's do painting. And none of us really know anything about painting. Andrey did a little bit of the painting in the past for, um, for one of the rental management property companies back in Key West, Florida, and a little bit for commercial. So he did— knew a little bit about that. My knowledge was very tight about painting, and we're just like, okay, let's do it. Kind of just out of nowhere came, and we had one vehicle, personal vehicle. We had no tools. We went and purchased a very basic set of tools and basically start to advertise on third-party local applications, and we got, we got signed up with Thumbtack, did a little bit of Facebook later on, and we started picking up some business, did some door knocking, and the business started picking up. First 6 months have been a big struggle, not so many clients, not so much knowledge, not truly know what, what we're doing, late hours. Um, but then, um, it accelerated into a different story because we were able to get in touch with people that have been doing painting business for a long time, and they kind of guided us in the direction what we're doing wrong and what we're doing right. Um, and that was a big pivot for us, uh, talking to people that already have completed a successful path in the past. And then since then, since probably like 2022, we just started growing pretty consistently. That's a, that's a pretty short summary. We can add way more things into it, but that's a pretty short summary how we started and how it starts going well, from which point.

In the first 6 months, we were both having jobs besides our painting company, so we had to do something that could pay our bills because with Yuki Painting we're keeping all the profits inside of the company so that could allow us reinvest money and have things like website, order shirts, things like that. And actually by watching podcast in Brandon PruPont with Garrett Martell, he had podcast And that's how we found about Garrett and we contacted him. He offered his consultation, so we consulted with Garrett and since then he recommended us to divide our responsibilities. One of us is responsible for sales and marketing and another one is responsible for production. He told us more about how to work with subcontractors and he told us about PCA Expo. So after his conversation we had to change our business, change our approach. And I believe this one, one of the, um, important periods of our business. Nice.

So sounds like you guys started pretty much from scratch, didn't have any money or skills or anything, just an idea, and then you, you've run with it from there. And so this is, this is awesome, uh, and it sounds like you're doing the, the subcontractor model Uh, who's focused on sales and who's focused on production?

Vitaly is responsible for sales and marketing, and I'm responsible for production.

Okay, so you get those roles split, and the first 6 months was rough. You basically were just reinvesting all any profit back into the business to grow. You got some mentors to help you grow it to the next level. Uh, and since 2022, it sounds like it's been growing pretty consistently. Where, where, what in terms of revenue, where are you guys at at this point?

Uh, last year we did almost $2.7 million. So the first year was like $280,000, then we did $800,000, then we did $1.6 million. Last year we're aiming for $3 million, but we didn't hit our goal. We got to like almost $2.7 million. And this year we're on track to do like 3.5 to 3.8.

Wow, that's awesome. 3.5 million target this year or even higher.

Well, target was 4, but we had to change it because we had terrible quarter 1.

Okay, bad quarter 1, so you had to adjust it down a little bit. So the original target was 4 million, had to adjust it down to 3.5, 3.8 million. Okay. That's still amazing. And so in 2024 it was 2.7, right?

Mm-hmm.

And then before that it was 1.6, you said? Yeah, 1.6. So that is super. And then before that it was 800,000. So you doubled.

And then when we doubled from 8 to 1.6, we thought that every year we're going to be able to double. That was like, okay, that seems to be pretty easy. That was the idea originally. And that's where 3 million came. Actually, there was 3.2 when we— from 1.6, we wanted to get to like 3.2 ideally, but it didn't happen. And that's when we realized, okay, that's just doubling. That's, that's not a real thing to do in the real world, at least for us. At least for us, it is, it is possible. It's possible to triple.

Yeah, it's possible, but it's super rare. And especially when you start getting up to multi, multi-millions, um, it's anything over 30% is amazing. So 30% growth is amazing. So, and you guys have done that consistently since 2022, it sounds like. So, um, that's amazing. So with that growth though, I'm sure there was some pretty bad growing pains. I would, I would guess, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, the first, and you actually said it already, was the 800 to 1.6 was not too bad, but getting past 1.6 to and above is probably a bit more difficult. Is that, is that right?

What do you feel?

It wasn't as difficult. It's— and the same thing that we are seeing right now, uh, have seen in the, in the quarter number 1, is the actual, um, quantity of potential clients, um, in the first quarter and the last quarter, especially from the residential side. So it wasn't difficult. Like, we, we had, we had the power to do so. We, if we had enough sales, we would be able to produce those jobs. So it wasn't the actual issue of producing, that was the actual issue of getting enough work to do. We just haven't had enough. And I wouldn't say it was difficult, but there was something that missing. What we have discussed, the And we discussed it very, um, not so long time ago, like a few days before our meeting today, that the, the last quarter of the year, the first quarter of the year, people do not— residential, residentials are not really, um, required for any, any sort of painting, and they kind of hold their money because of the holidays and the tax season. Um, but commercial jobs are still going on. So what we are trying to fix this year and the next year, we're gonna try to attract more commercial jobs for the last quarter and the first quarter, because the second and the third quarter throughout last year and throughout this year seems to be pretty good so far. So that's, that's where it wasn't— it like, it wasn't hard or difficult. We cannot say that we struggled with something It's just we haven't had enough volume of leads coming in through the first and the last quarter.

And from my point of view, as a— from production side, it's— last year was, I would say, the most interesting because 2023 I was only project manager and Vitaly was only estimator, and then we had subcontractors working under us. And last year we had to add one more project manager, one more estimator, and one more office person. So there was here more reach of like business movements, not necessarily the painting movements, but more about related to business as business. So that was interesting. And then last year it felt like from first month from January all the way to like probably mid of July, it's like building a plane on the way down. You know, we have all these jobs and we're trying to figure out the way how to complete the efficiency with the proper margins. Although we think we have systems in place, but they're not necessarily perfect. And then till about end of July, middle of July, we're kind of getting better. And that's when it starts to be smoother. Like about this time of the year, we can complete all the projects pretty successful that we're trying to work on. And till end of the year, we should be fine, like working with less stress. And then next year, depending what kind of goal we're going to have, it's going to be again, same story. So if you want to grow aggressively, again, first 6 months are going to be struggle and then we're going to get on our path when we know how to produce all those jobs.

Gotcha.

Okay.

So it sounds like right now, you're— the constraint in your business isn't your ability to produce the work. It's really just the, the amount of leads or getting more customers. So you're trying to add commercial in there to, to get to kind of smooth out the first and the fourth quarter. Um, you've, you've had a pretty mostly smooth ride growing to this point. Um, it was a, a little bit of a challenge to add in the additional project manager and salesperson from in 2024 to once you guys grew past what you could do between the two of you. But you've, you've pretty much stayed true to the subcontractor model and, and just added on those project manager and sales roles. And then you're really just trying to, trying to unlock the next level of lead flow and commercial work. Do you guys already Have you already broken into the commercial stuff already, or is it pretty much just exclusively residential?

No, we did, and we, we are doing way better in commercial this year because that was the initial goal, to get a little bit more involved into it, and we are doing more than we ever done before. Hopefully we're going to be able to produce and sell about 10% of the whole revenue this year. And next year try to get even a little bit more, maybe 12 to 15%. Okay. Yes, we are doing a little bit better with that.

Gotcha. So 10% this year, just getting into it and then trying to grow it from there. Do you guys have a, uh, because a lot of painting businesses that I've worked with, they kind of want to have a 50/50-ish split or maybe 60/40 split between residential and commercial, just because sometimes commercial is not as great with cash flow because of the payment terms, but commercial is usually really good with cash flow because you can get up to 50% deposit. Do you guys have a plan with that, or what is that looking like?

That's a good question, to be honest with you. This is something that we probably should put on paper and discuss. We haven't really decided what percentage was gonna take. Again, as of right now, if we're gonna hit 10% this year on commercial and 15% next year, I think that's a really good start. If we're gonna get breaking down more into it, I mean, of course we're not going to refuse, but that's going to change a lot how we operate because the more commercials we do, the— it's different kind of crews, different kind of approach. A little bit different system in general. That's how I see it. Do you see— do you see what's your perspective on that?

I would like us to keep us as a residential paint company, but when we have some commercial projects like 10%, 15%, that would be cool. But still, there is extra margin for dealing with customers, and profitability of commercial jobs are a little bit less in terms of percentage. Um, so we want to, uh, keep on working and building a residential repaint company with some commercial projects.

Gotcha. I like to go back in time a little bit. You said for the first 6 months you were really having a rough time, and then you got some help from some mentors, and then something changed and you obviously you started doubling soon after that. So what were the things that you learned that unlocked that growth for you guys?

Let me tell one thing. Andrew will get a little bit deeper into like specifics of the roles, but the biggest thing that first 6 months, and it seems to be very obvious and seems to be right on the surface, But we see more examples like us at PCA a lot. The biggest thing that basically changed is just telling us, hey guys, break down, you do this and you do this. You do sales, you do production. First 6 months we were actively doing, you know, same things. I could find subs, I could manage them, Andriy could sell the job. And then vice versa, go to the appointment. Like, we would, you know, do each other, um, in different days we'll have different roles. And, and that was the biggest mistake that we have done. So the biggest impact was like, okay guys, you break down, you write down the responsibilities, what you're responsible for, what you're responsible for, and you, you just, you basically just go like this and That was the biggest one. Of course, you can get more in, more deeper into the systems, like what exactly helped us to change, but that was probably the biggest one. And we see more examples like this. People don't really see it when it's a partnership, or even not partnership, like, you know, you will put a bunch of different tasks on a person that does things, sales and production, and that, that, and that, and that shouldn't be the case. So that's the biggest one.

I would like to fix you, Vitaly, because for the first 6 months we didn't have subcontractors. We had one, Leo. He was a guy that we found on Facebook, I think.

Yeah, even that guy, you know, like you talked to him, I talked to him, like it was, you know, it was a mess.

Yeah, we were doing most of the work for first 6 months for sure. And then we even had idea doing only cabinets. Like we thought, okay, we're going to be cabinetry paint company. And we were working on some of the cabinets and idea of subcontracting. We thought it would be like when you subcontract, you just give a job to the subcontractor and like you do never go there again. So kind of subcontracting didn't feel appealing to us because it didn't feel like we're building something cool. But then we learned what it's like to work with subcontractors. That's when you're just using them as a labor. That's all. So then we thought, oh, this is cool. And that's again after talking with Garrett Martell. And also I think one of the things that helped was that we didn't take money from the business like we were always underpaying ourselves and that helped us to have some capital in the business that could allow us to grow.

Gotcha.

So it sounds like one, once you guys defined your roles, you were able to focus your effort on like, I own this, this is my thing, I'm going to, I'm going to kill this. And you didn't have to worry about what the other person's doing. They're, they're taking care of their side. So you, once you can focus your energy, you're just more effective. Sounds like that was one big one. And then also just the management of the subcontractors and how, how to actually use them effectively. Could you talk about a little bit more about that? What specifically were you, did you do with the subs that were that really changed how you operated?

Well, first that we just started using subs. Like Gary told us, have a list of subs that you can work with. So we posted on Craigslist, hey, we're looking for subcontractors. I think we talked with some Sherwin-Williams guys. Oh, and also I would go to Sherwin-Williams and cold business cards, but that was not very effective, like efficient, didn't help us out. Mostly people from Craigslist. Then we had a little profile of subcontractors. We would have like Word document as a template. We would enter their name, their skills, like we would give them rate or their present, the way they look, ABC, level of their English, ABC, this type of stuff. And then we had folder of these files with different profiles of subcontractors. We had a folder with A, B, and C subs. And then we knew what kind of jobs we can give to what sub. Yeah, that's how it started. And Garrett initially told us that we need to do 45% for labor and materials, but we tried that and we were not able to get to those numbers. So we were doing like, we're trying to do under 50% up until now. Vitaly, do you remember anything else from that period?

In terms of the subs or in general?

Yeah, subs.

Um, no, I feel like more improvement— like, there was, of course, there was a big improvements. Those little changes were the big improvement, but I feel like the biggest improvements with subs, they have been happening in the last 2 years. I think that was— there was more, um, more significant changes in, in the sub model for the last 2 years than when we just start using them.

Okay, so in the beginning you guys were constrained on your— you were painting on the job site, uh, you didn't— you weren't focused. You started focusing on sales and marketing, like each of you focused on your own lane. You got subcontractors to free up your time so you're not on the job site, and structured way to pay them about 50% of the job for labor and materials. And so that just freed up your time to then, I'm assuming, focus on growing the business because then you grew pretty, pretty quickly after that. What were you doing on the marketing side? Now you mentioned Facebook and door knocking. What was your primary acquisition method to get that much growth that quickly?

That was, that was still Facebook was still the biggest one at 800. Until 1.6 point, Facebook and Google was the biggest, the biggest growth. We've tried, we've tried every door direct mail. Saturated mail came just last year, but every door direct mail didn't work out really well for us, but we also didn't have a really good system to track that. We had a few sponsorships here and there, which we also did not know the exact impact. But the biggest ones that we can really track, very simple, Google and Facebook organic and not organic. When we started, we created Instagram page. I remember us creating Instagram page when we had our personal vehicle and we had just a magnet, Yuki Painting, with our personal phone number. And it was like probably first few weeks and we would we would just post even, you know, our vehicle with that magnet on the side and it looked super unprofessional right now, but back then we thought like, wow, we're a big company, we got, you know, we got advertisement on our vehicle. So even little things like that, we actually had somebody that, and then we've heard it somewhere that to get to acquire a client, there's got to be a few points of contact. It's not, it's never one. And we had a client, his name is Kevin, one of the first clients, and he said he called from the magnet, but he said he has seen us somewhere on Facebook first. He's like, when he's seen us on Facebook and then he has seen the magnet, he's like, okay, now I can call. So that was pretty cool, but that's what we basically used, nothing really fancy. But even until up then, we're not using anything fancy right now.

Yeah, but from day one we had this idea of building the brand. We have this Ukrainian marketing guy, he created like big brands in Ukraine, multi-million companies, and he had his blog where he was telling about power of brands, like that every brand has to be seen 7 times before people can trust him. So we had this idea from day one that we want to build a brand so that helped us. We always wear uniforms, uh, we tried to put magnets in the vehicle because once we got van, we wrapped it up in our, uh, company branding. So we always had this type of approach.

Nice. So a focus on brand, uh, you feel like that really helped in the, in, in the beginning with— I guess, can you tell me more about brand? Because some folks, um, Branding can kind of seem a little theoretical, but how are you actually implementing it? Is it just about the, you know, wrapping the vehicles and like the, the logo and that sort of thing, or are there more things that you guys are doing intentionally to improve the brand of the company?

So, um, last year we rebranded a little bit and we added a few a few slicker things. It's, it's not, uh, or how to show you. So right here, yeah, UP. So it, it seems like super simple and straightforward, but it took us like 3 months to come up with this stuff. A lot, really a lot of effort. And, uh, seems like that actually helps to recognize, um, I, I think that always putting your name out there, uh, gives a really good brand awareness. And it's not like about just saying, hey, call us. It's just about putting your name out there and just remind people about yourself. And if we're going to be talking about the biggest marketing strategy that we have that gives us the biggest return, that's going to be— and I think every company should strive for that— referrals and repeat clients. And to wrap, and it starts with production side where we follow up with the client, asking to fill out the survey, always send them emails. Every client that we dealt with before gets 2 emails every week with some kind of news or discounts or promos or just informational ones. You know, this type of things to stay in touch with your people, all the time that helps to build the brand. Like, we have a few clients that, you know, they know that Yuki Painting is a company that they able to recommend to other people and there's going to be no issues. They know us like a big company. Some people just like approach and say, oh, I know you guys, you guys Yuki Painting.

Yeah, some people think that we're a big company for some reason, but I also would add that from day one we had this idea that we want to look professional We always motivate our subcontractors to wear our UK Painting shirts. We always put yard sign by the house. If our subs have a decent looking van, we encourage them and motivate them to put magnets on those vans. We put door hangers to next homes that we're working in. Yeah, and like Vitaliy said, we calling after job is completed to make sure everything is good. We send few emails, but also we have little presents that we give after job completion. We used to have different cups, different chip clippers, but now we're doing only coasters that have Yuki painting on it. Who knows, maybe they're gonna throw it away, but one person might leave it on the table and then guest gonna come and maybe see the brand or maybe they're gonna talk about it. Who knows? But we feel like that also adds some kind of credibility and trust and knowledge for a company.

That makes a lot of sense. So very deliberate effort on your guys' part to make sure that you look professional, that you look like a quality brand, and then also acting that way, trying to— because you did a lot of outbound marketing with Facebook ads and that sort of thing. But it sounds like you're really focused on also making sure that you get repeat clients and you nurture your customers after you perform work for them. You're periodically reaching out to them, you know, monthly or quarterly to stay in touch, provide value, and then, you know, see if they need work again, I'm assuming as well to reactivate them.

And the Google reviews, we try to work hard on getting Google reviews.

Google reviews. Yeah, it's huge. So So your growth, definitely impressive. You, it sounds like in the beginning you fixed your, your constraint was basically not having enough workers. You fixed that with subcontractors by getting those Craigslist, Craigslist ad posted and have that steady flow of subcontractors. Focus on brand. You were able to use Facebook ads to get your name out there quickly. And then provide a great experience with good branding to get referrals and repeat customers to support the growth. And then in 2024, you actually had to start hiring a team because up, up until this point, it sounds like you pretty much were just doing subcontractors and the two of you. But then 2024, you needed to add another salesperson, another production manager. Did— how did that change the dynamic? Or like, what were the challenges there?

Well, I want to say that I'm glad that we read the book From Good to Great from Jim Collins, and he was saying that better companies employ people within the company. So we were looking right away from who we can promote inside of our company, and we had one guy, Christian, who was painting cabinets. He was American guy he was definitely smarter and better than cabinet painter. So we thought, okay, maybe he can potentially become an estimator. And then we had another subcontractor who was also a little bit too good to be subcontractor. So we already laid his eye on him even early before we thought, like, before we even told him that. So both of those guys grew within the company So Juan became project manager and Christian became estimator. And I think it made it so much easier. We didn't have to teach them what kind of company we are, what our values are. Even we didn't have written values at the time, but from our behaviors, they could understand what kind of people we are. So I think that helped us a lot, made it easier.

Nice. So it sounds like you promoted your accountant guy to sales. Did he have sales experience or did you guys just train him? No, just trained him. Okay, awesome. And so, uh, and how long has he been in that role at this point?

So at this point, this is his, uh, second year as a salesperson.

Nice.

He did, I believe, uh, I believe 1.1 or right under 1.2 million first year.

That's awesome.

And this year so far, if he goes as he goes, uh, he's gonna hit 1.5.

That's awesome.

His ideal goal gotta be 1.7.

That's pretty impressive. I mean, going from like not, uh, doing sales before— because I don't know, had he done sales before at all, or nothing?

He was doing DoorDash.

And there is, there is actually, there is a saying, uh, not the same, that's, um, by Nick Slavik. He separates salesperson an estimator.

Yeah.

So from his, uh, behavioral perspective, he's not a salesperson. He's not the person that will sell what is, you know, unsellable, or he is just a very great person with the right knowledge, um, and he, he's doing good in this position, but he's more estimator than salesperson.

Gotcha. Well, he's definitely making sales for not being a salesperson. Uh, $1.1 million his first year and then $1.5 this year. That's, that's awesome.

I'm coming right now. I'm looking at it. He's at, uh, $785,000.

Yeah, that's, that's amazing. Uh, so you, you really liked him. You, you thought you saw potential, something in him. They, for some reason you thought he would be a good estimator or salesperson. And I'm assuming you got them some good training. Like, did you guys have a training program that you ran them through to get them trained up?

Back then, we didn't really have any good system. It just basically just go ahead and follow me and just basically copy paste everything. That's how it was. This year, 2025, we had to hire another salesperson, and we took time to prepare and get the system together. So the new person, Ryan, that came in on board this year, he went through a pretty systemized training. There was a few things missing, but in general, there was a— there was SOP almost for every line item that he needed to, um, to go over as a salesperson. So back then, no, but in 2025, we already had a pretty good system.

Did you also, for Ryan, did you get him internally? Was he a sub as well?

He was, no, he was, he was, uh, external.

Okay, gotcha. But no, that's, that's great. Your first two hires, internal from subs, you just trained them up and sounds like they're both working out really well in their second year in. So something, it sounds like you guys really set them up for success and you really identified, because I know just a lot of businesses, those two hires are the production manager role and the salesperson role can be tough to fill, especially if it's the first one outside of the owners that you're, you're bringing on. It's a little bit of a learning curve. It sounds like you guys knocked it out of the park on both of them. On the first try. So you guys are doing something right. Is there anything you can, like, what do you think went right? What did you guys, um, what do you think you did to get it right on the first try with both those roles? You think it was because I know you cited like the fact that they were already in the company, they knew you guys, so you guys knew they were good, like they were a good fit for the company. That was probably a big Plus there, was there anything else?

We have this guy in Ukraine, he, he built the biggest bank in Ukraine, and he said that I want to work with people who I want to hug.

That you won't work with people that what?

That you want to give a hug.

Oh, give a hug.

Yeah, nice.

So luckily we have everybody in the company that I want to hug, and that, that is, that feels great toward this type of people. And like Nick Slavik says, being decent human being, you know, we kind of work differently, but I feel like it's a similar story. This is foundation of any role, just to find the right people who can fit the right role. So I think what helped us from day one, maybe we didn't have perfectly that done, but we had some kind of responsibilities written down, down. We had their step-by-step on daily operations, what they need to do, kind of like their SOP. We had some kind of KPIs in place for them. It wasn't perfect, but it was there. And I think that helped us out, that we didn't just throw them on the field, say, hey, figure this out, but we kind of had step-by-step explanations of all the processes.

Gotcha.

Cool.

All right, awesome. Well, I want to be respectful of your time. This has been, super informative. I think you guys have provided a ton of value to everyone listening. Do you have any final thoughts for the listeners or, uh, anything from your perspective that, um, you think is super important when, when growing your business beyond $3 million in revenue, uh, that you'd like to throw out there before we let you guys go?

It's a tough one.

What, what does usually people say?

It's, it is, it spans the gambit, I guess. Let me rephrase it. So if you are, let's, if you can put yourself back in the place of where you were doing $800,000, and what would you have liked to have known then that would have sped up your your learning process to be at $3 million now? Like, what do you wish you would have known back when you were sub a million, maybe in that year at $800,000 after that first big year? What would you have liked to have known that you didn't, but now you know that has been really useful in growing beyond $3 million in revenue?

It's hard to— again, it's, you know, it's basically the conversation that we have had for those, you know, 40 minutes. And there is bunch of little things that really help to get there. But the biggest one, again, it's talking to people that already went that path and taking their, taking their experience and actually implement and not just listen to what is mentioned to you, but actually take those notes and take the action on Um, and it, it, everything that we are doing, we're not doing anything special. Maybe there are some things that are different, but the general idea is, you know, somebody already have done it before, and there is so many people out there that are smarter, um, than you are that you should listen and just copy-paste, basically.

Yeah, yes, how I feel also. Like, everybody have made so many mistakes and there's so many good things that we can learn from. I would probably read the book Traction earlier and E-Myth by Michael Gerber. I think those are two really fundamental books for any business. And yeah, just learning from people who have accomplished what we're looking to accomplish and also to know what kind of people to look up to. I think it was important that we had vision where we want to go. From day one when we just painting with the brush in our hands, we had the vision that we want to become— that time we thought we're going to become $10 million company. Now we're not thinking that we're gonna grow that big, but we still have vision to become a business that can operate itself and being more as an asset than a job for ourselves.

I think that's excellent advice. I really appreciate you two coming on. Sharing your story with us. I think you're gonna inspire a lot of people with this. And with that, for our listeners, we will see you next week.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.