Hiring a High-Skill Level Team Member with Daniel Honan — I Love Bookkeeping

So I was kind of looking for something and that's when I came across your course, which I hadn't really hadn't thought about doing a bookkeeping business until I saw your, your, your material. And once I kind of saw the first, I think you had a 3-video series, it was really compelling to me. So I just bought the course and I was like, okay, I'll do this. I love it. I love bookkeeping.

Well, welcome to the I Love Bookkeeping Show. I'm your host, Ben Robinson. Today, I tell you what, I've got a treat for all of you out there. Our guest is a hell of a guy and a brilliant man. He's a former painting business owner and military officer, and now he owns his own bookkeeping business, which is called Bookkeeping for Painters. He has a bachelor's degree in accounting, an MBA, and if that weren't enough, he's also an enrolled agent. He is passionate about sharing his knowledge and wisdom to help his clients, and today he's going to be helping us. Without further ado, welcome to the show, Daniel Honan.

Hey, how's it going, Ben?

It's going pretty well. I hope that you're, you're doing well and thank you for joining us today. So go ahead.

I appreciate it and I'm happy to be here.

Yeah. So obviously I Love Bookkeeping, we're all about bookkeeping here. So let's start off with that right there. What possessed you to start your own bookkeeping business?

So I guess I was, I was kind of looking to start a business and this is back after I got back from my last deployment. And obviously being in the military, deploying and coming back because I'm a reservist, it's very disruptive to your life. So I was reevaluating, okay, what am I doing now? Now I'm a civilian. I got to think, what's my next step here? So I was kind of looking. I had some experience at Liberty Tax doing tax preparation. And I kind of liked that, uh, but I wanted to actually do something on my own. So I started looking at what could I do in the accounting world? 'Cause that, that was my only real experience in the accounting world was doing that one season at Tax Prep. And then, um, and I had that accounting bachelor's degree, so I was like, well, maybe I can do a business in tax preparation or something of that nature. So I was kind of looking for something and, uh, that's the one I came across. Your course, which I hadn't really hadn't thought about doing a bookkeeping business until I saw your, your, your material. And once I kind of saw the first, I think you had a 3-video series, it was really compelling to me. So I just bought the course and I was like, okay, I'll do this.

Yeah. And when, when was this? When did you make this decision to invest in Bookkeeper Business Launch?

I think it was okay. So it was 2016 and I bought it in May, I believe.

Okay. Yeah, that sounds about right. Because one of the cool things I see is when you post up, you were posting up in the group when you got your clients and I saw the, the latest one that you posted up back in November, maybe different now, was #43rd client. I believe that it was.

Yeah. I have a terrible— I'm gonna do my best. I have a terrible memory. I— that's why I have to write things down, otherwise I'll forget it. So, uh, yeah.

Oh yeah, I'm right there with you. The older that I get, and I'm still using old pad and paper. So, all right, so in May of 2016 you make this decision, and today you're sitting here with more than 40 clients, um, and you work only with, uh, painting professionals, is that correct?

Correct. Painting business.

Okay, right. Painting, painting businesses. And the decision, like, what made you— I think that I know the answer to this, but was it just your experience or what led to just saying, hey, I'm going to work exclusively with painters?

So it definitely was a factor that I had run a painting business in college, but that was more because I thought that would be compelling from the marketing perspective. But it was that and also a little bit of, I know, I know what this business is about. So I feel like I could somewhat speak with some knowledge on it. And then the more important factors probably were just doing the analysis with how many painting businesses there are in the country and where they are, where I could find them. And market to them, uh, right? And that there wasn't really anybody serving the market already. Uh, well, at least directly. There was people serving the market, but not like exclusively.

Gotcha. Okay. So you made that decision to work with painters and obviously that has turned out pretty well. And, uh, so let's kind of walk through May of 2016 to where we are almost 3 years later. Um, so a person doesn't just go within 3 years and grab 43 or 45 clients, however many you have, without doing something very well. So kind of walk us through, like, how did you start to get all of these clients and how did you build this momentum?

Uh, pretty much followed your course recommendations for marketing, um, very, uh So putting out, I think you described as putting out a lot of seeds and then going with the ones that work the best. So there's a lot of, a lot of action in the beginning, like everywhere, everything from LinkedIn connections, you know, connecting with painting business owners, guest blogs on websites that had, you know, painting as the the topic. Direct mail, creating a Facebook group to help painting businesses, a lot of non— a lot of stuff on the internet. I didn't do a lot of networking in this because it was— I was looking for painting businesses exclusively. That was probably the one I didn't do, but, uh, everything, the gambit in terms of using the internet, um, to basically get in front of painting business owners. Um, and, and that's really where I think most of the success came from, was just the focus on getting in front of painting business owners in multiple different ways, uh, as many ways I could.

Yeah, well, that's awesome. Uh, that— yeah, we always say that I want 20— I want 20 different ways to find one client rather than one way to find 20 clients, because If one of those mechanisms goes away or technology is advanced, whatever the case may be, we have other ways in which to get those clients. So very smart right there. So, all right. So now you're up to this, this over, over 40 clients. I mean, has it all been, you know, rainbows and peaches and cream and an easy road for you? Or what have been the hurdles, I guess, is what I'm trying to drive at here of getting to where you are today.

Yeah, there's obviously, there's been a lot of hurdles. So I guess one of the first ones was I had never done bookkeeping before, so that was a hurdle I had to get over.

Right. Sure. Yes, absolutely.

But no, I mean, obviously your course helped me prepare for that, but I never actually did that for other folks before. So that was just, you know, learning curve in the beginning. And then, you know, moving from that, it was, I guess, around 10 clients or so. My wife was doing this with me and we, you know, could see a path to— and this was probably in the first 6 months or so. So we realized that, you know, we could make this bigger than just her and I. So The next hurdle was getting people to help us with the business. So that was, you know, documenting our processes and then finding people that we could work with to grow further was a hurdle for sure. And I mean, everything in between from there.

Yeah, just the natural progression of not knowing what we don't know, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, and today I know that you're in a unique position because most people that are listening to the show, they're very entrenched into the day-to-day operations of their bookkeeping business. But I think that you take a different approach to this. Can you kind of give some insights into like what is your involvement now with the bookkeeping business and your clients?

Right now, I, I don't do anything directly. Like I work. And that's really out of necessity, because I'm about to deploy for military. So I had to basically get myself out of the business so that the business can, could continue. So I, right now, at most, what I'm doing is mentoring Mike, who is kind of running the show and just kind of talking with him periodically to make sure he's thinking about things and, and just kind of overseeing all the processes and making sure that all the gaps are filled, you know, while I'm here so that when I leave, I, you know, I don't have to worry about it.

Gotcha. Now, is that a, is that a model that you want to keep up even after your deployment is over?

I haven't— I've been so focused on the deployment, you know, I haven't thought much beyond what am I going to do after the deployment. But I mean, it's nice to have the choice. You know, I could do— I could, you know, easily go back into doing advising or whatever I want to do or, you know, so it gives me the flexibility to do either.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's great. And I know that I speak for everybody at I Love Bookkeeping, but thank you for your service and for the sacrifice that you're going to be making with this deployment, because because I know with, with your wife Melissa, whom I've got to meet, and, and your son, that, uh, that's not an easy thing to do. So thank you for that. We appreciate your service.

I appreciate your support.

Yes. So you mentioned something just a minute ago about advice, and one of the things that we're big about is really changing the conversation that we're having about bookkeeping, going beyond just the basic reporting, getting into what we call interpretation and becoming a trusted advisor. For our clients. And I'm on your website right now, which is bookkeepingforpainters.com, which is brilliantly named. And I'm on the About page and it says right here, the heading, "Does your accountant get the painting business?" And what, what is the angle here when you're saying, "Does your accountant get the painting business?" Kind of tying this into advising. I want to kind of build this out for everybody.

Right. The, basically the value that I think we provide is that we, we know the painting business very well just because that's all we do. We only deal with painting businesses. And so the folks that we work with, the value we're providing is basically knowing all the backend systems like the, the painting estimating software, the how to, the sales process, like how to create automation in your bus, your painting business. What kind of, what are some strategies to help with labor? So it's not just accounting. It definitely is accounting analysis of financial statements, but we, we just because we deal with painting businesses exclusively, we know a lot about the business, the painting business itself. And we, if we can't do the, and if we don't know something or, or if we don't have the capability to, to provide help on a certain topic, we know exactly who to point to to say, hey, You know, this isn't quite what we can do for you, but we definitely know someone who can help a painting business like yourself to, to get that solved. So we see ourselves not really like bookkeepers, even though that's in our title, more like an advisor. And I guess we're using bookkeeper, bookkeeping as the entrance to that. But then I think most of our clients see once they get on board with us, that we're highly valuable with the advice we're providing because it's all very catered to making their business better.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the subhead— subheadline down here on the same page says, "A dedicated team of accountants and bookkeepers that understand and work exclusively in the painting industry to help business owners run a better business." So that's, that's, that's awesome right there. So can you give us some examples of things that you do above and beyond bookkeeping for your clients?

We are kind of, we kind of see ourselves like a tech integrator. So providing advice, not only advice, but also actual help with this during our onboarding process. But we, we're very familiar with that, like the app stack that painting businesses use or different types of app stacks and then how to integrate them with Zapier, which is like an automation duct tape for the internet sort of. So we, we can advise them on how to do that. And also we, during our onboarding process, we can actually just do that for them in certain, for certain cases. So that's one thing that we think we do well is advice on technology and how to use it. And then—

Can you help me? I need some technology help all the time. So yes, continue, please.

I guess benchmarking is just knowing what your numbers should be. That's a big one. I mean, just because we obviously have paint, the generic benchmark data, um, that you can get. But we also have like internal benchmarks. We know pretty well, like, we know what your, your numbers should be. Um, not only just generically, but, um, at what stage of the painting business, like a startup versus a, a buildup versus a buildout, uh, enterprise. We know, and based off of the owner's participation in the business, like, are they doing sales and operations or are they just, so we can, come up with specific numbers on what they should have, what should they be shooting for specifically based off of what stage of painting business they are and what their involvement is in the painting business.

Yeah, that's, that's very insightful. Do you, um, so do you get feedback, or what kind of feedback do you get from painters that when they, when they talk about your service and how you serve them maybe versus a previous professional? Have you had much feedback on the way that you offer versus other people that have served them?

Yes. Yeah. Knowing their numbers, like really specifically, like what I kind of just described, I get good feedback on that. KPIs, like there's key performance indicators, KPIs. You know, we work with the painting business to develop those to help them answer questions. So they can make better decisions in their business. And we're able to do that pretty efficiently. Because, you know, a lot of them have the same problem sets. And then help with technology responsiveness. Hmm. Yeah, another one is response, like, they have questions, they get you know, the quick turnaround on the answers. And yeah, I think generally that covers it.

Yeah, well, that's, that's awesome. I mean, that's so much more than just providing a set of financial statements that the client may or probably does not understand at the end of the month. So kudos to you for doing that. I know that that's one of the big reasons for your success up to this point is the service, the level of service and the advisory part of what you do. Let's, let's talk a little bit about your role and what you like. Like, what is your, what is your favorite thing to do as it relates to your bookkeeping business? I understand you're hands-off, but, you know, even, even now or maybe before, what was like some of the favorite things that you do in this business?

I was just telling my wife the other day, I like just building the system. So, which is basically me just sitting at a computer by myself, mostly, and just typing.

Yeah.

So I like doing that. And I like kind of creating the procedure processes, and then making it all— see it all happen. And then working out the kinks on automation and systems, I guess.

Yeah, well, so much so that we're having a meetup next month and I've asked Daniel to come in and teach us processes and systems and checklists because you are so good at that. I mean, I thought I was good and then I saw you and I'm like, I'm a rookie. So that's really what— what, like, what made you good at these processes and systems? Is this a military background? Is this just something that comes natural or are you a student of it? How did you get this skill set?

I guess according to my DiSC personality profile, it's just part of my personality style. It's high in conscientiousness. I also liked programming, you know, writing Python and stuff. So that's kind of writing instructions. So Yeah, that's me.

I understand it's a little bit of everything, so, um, and, and that's great. Um, so what— let's, let's go from the other side then. Like, what's one aspect of your business that you wish did not exist or didn't have to have your involvement?

Um, I guess there's things that definitely fatigue me. I don't want to say there's anything that I don't want to be involved in. There probably is, I just, nothing comes to mind exactly, but there are definitely things that I can't sustain. Like Mike is, he's like the primary advisor and he's meeting, doing like 4 meetings a day. or something close to that. So I wouldn't be able to sustain that. I mean, I've done it, but it's very exhausting for me to, to meet with people all day. So, that's something that I can't really, like, I'm going to take a nap directly after this, podcast.

I have that effect on people. So it's not just you, Daniel. Yeah. Yeah. I understand that. Yeah. Would you call yourself an introvert?

That is usually what I score. Yeah. Introverted.

Yeah, I'm the same way. And people are like, there's no way. I'm like, yeah, it just— what exhausts you? If being around people, it's great, you know, you can like it, but if it exhausts you, that's the definition of an introvert. And I find that most bookkeeping professionals and most people who can grow these businesses to the size that you have are also introverts. That's painting with a broad brush in my experience, but, uh, that's, that's not something that's unique, right? So, um, that, that's good that you've recognized those limitations. The older I get, uh, the more I realize that I have limitations. It's not more limitations I have, just the, uh, at least the wherewithal to say, hey, I can't do that well anymore. Uh, so you've had resounding success from, you know, in the last 3 years. So for somebody who's thinking about starting their own bookkeeping business, because that's part of our audience, are people who are aspiring. Obviously, with the name I Love Bookkeeping, we have everything from people who want to be a bookkeeper or like bookkeeping, and then people who have been like you and established a great business. But for someone who's thinking about starting a bookkeeping business, would you have any sage advice? What to do, what not to do, shortcuts, hacks, that sort of thing?

I would say, and I think there's some controversy over this one. People on either side of the fence, but I think niching is super important. And I think maybe your position is that maybe not from the start, maybe figure it out as you go or something like that.

Right.

I think, I think I disagree. I think if you figure it out, like figure out your target, market and figure out your— basically the way I understood the training when I had— and I think you had also changed, you've also changed your position on it, but you know, if you do the analysis up front and, um, figure out your background and, and then really find out where your target market is and really go after it, I think, uh, you should see results in a Um, so I think niching, um, from the get-go is, is what I would say. But, you know, I, I've only done one bookkeeping business. You might have more experience on seeing where the hurdles are, but, um, that would be one. And then another one would be processes are important for before you get people, um, like bringing people on. It's just so much easier to have the processes and then just say, you know, figure out who the right person is, and then be able to just say, okay, just follow these processes step by step and not having to, like, handhold them the whole way or try to teach them on the job. You know, I mean, they're going to learn on the job, but I mean, having to actually show them step by step or something like that, that's crazy. So I think getting your processes solidified before you actually— not solidified, I should say, getting your processes in an 80% solution before you're trying to bring people on. Yep.

That's my mantra: processes before people. Uh, because if you just try to throw people at a process problem, they're all going to be frustrated— you, uh, your client, and the team member. So not a good thing. So that's Sage advice right there. So absolutely, we think that a niche is the way to go. What we found with people starting off is that sometimes that was a, a stopping point where they stuck themselves. And so we said, hey, look, you want to have a niche. A best practice is to have a niche from day one. However, if you can't find a niche, then go out there and get clients. Get anybody who can fog a mirror is going to pay you money and get that experience. Get a business up and going, because until you have an actual client, you don't have a business, you have a hobby. Hobbies cost money. We don't want that. So it absolutely is our position that you should have a niche, but if you are in the position where you can't really find one right now, then just go out there and get those clients. And but you should be developing a niche by the time you get to 5, 6 clients, because it just makes your It makes the ability of what you have been able to do advising your clients. So I'm glad that you took that, that advice and ran with it.

Yeah, I also guess it depends on for that person also what their goals are. So like if, if your goal is just to have kind of a side hustle, and, you know, you have a full-time job, or, you know, it's not your It's not, maybe it's more of a, just a side hustle. Maybe it's not as important to niche, you know, just getting a few, going to BNI and just getting a few clients and that's, you're good with that. I think that would, you know, I guess what my assumption in my answer or my assumption was when I was kind of giving the advice was the person is trying to like actually build a business and and have some sort of scale to it.

Absolutely. Yep. That's, that's sage advice. Niche and processes. That, that is, that is the way to go. So I want to kind of transition here. So we've talked about your journey up to this point. And one of the things that we love to do on the show, I Love Bookkeeping, is to help you to overcome a challenge, to seize an opportunity, to take that next step in your practice, whatever that is for you. And I know that one of the big things you just mentioned is that you have Mike, who does most of, if not all, the client interaction, the advising, the actual meeting with your client. And I want you to kind of present, because we talked a little bit before this, but we haven't really dove into this and we're going to right now, but present the challenge that you have in your business and then let's go to work on it.

All right. So The situation is that I need another advisor to increase capacity and create some redundancy. Mike is my only advisor, so let me just back up a little bit. The way the, the business is kind of formatted is I have bookkeepers that do bookkeeping. I have like a QC team that does a quality check on the bookkeeper's work. We have a financial video review team because sometimes we have different types of packages and not everyone gets a meeting. If they don't want to meet monthly, they can choose to get a financial video review, 15-minute video going over financial statements. So, and then we have, then we have an advisor who is dealing with the clients that are kind of have chosen to have that more hands-on, uh, which most of our clients do have this, like more hands-on, they're meeting monthly and they have unlimited support. So Mike is dealing with the, basically he kind of like the face of the company. He's advising with clients. He's also doing all the sales calls. So people, new perspective, new prospects coming in. He's meeting with those folks. Um, So I only have one. So I need to— I need another one because one, we're gonna have a lot more clients come in soon. And then also I need more than one person in that position. And the problem is, I guess the question is, should I try to find and hire someone who is using the DiSC personality framework, which is the Dominance, Influencer, Stability, and Conscientiousness, as a framework for this discussion, because— so I need— I basically need someone who is an Influencer and Conscientious, high in those two. As their top 2, and also has like some sort of tax and construction business knowledge. So that's very— just the personality itself, someone who's an influencer and high in conscientiousness, literally I've looked at the distribution of this and there's— it's not even on the scale. Like when you look at the percentages of people that have that type of personality. Um, so then, then addition on it, on top of that, like they have to also have, um, some sort of tax, 'cause we do tax planning, uh, as well. So tax planning and construction business knowledge. So like, like Mike is a, uh, he's a former construction business owner, so that would, that would be ideal if that person had all those. Um, so that's very, very rare, I, uh, from what it seems. From the data.

It's a unicorn, right? Yeah, it's a unicorn riding on a rainbow, right?

So should I, should I try to find it, find and hire this, you know, hypothetical person? Or should I maybe be— Mike is actually doesn't exactly fit that profile just described. He's dominant and Influencer as his high 2. So his action, His conscientiousness is third. So, so we've actually, the system's kind of built around him because we have a layer of QC before it gets to him because, um, he's great with clients and stuff, but, you know, he, the, uh, if he's doing a quality check, a lot, a lot of quality checks, it just exhausts him. So he, he'll miss stuff. So we've kind of built it so he, we maximize his client face-to-face and not much, uh, detail QC work.

Right.

So, so the question, so the question is, should I try to find that unicorn, that influencer, conscientious, tax, you know, experienced construction knowledge, who would I think would be ideal? Or should I have more flexibility? And then I guess, where would that flex— where should that flexibility be? And I guess, you know, should I try to hire, I guess, maybe another Mike who doesn't have that, that conscientiousness as high and, and then just be reliant on the system that we've created to, to offset that, you know, weakness?

Okay. All right. So basically, how do, how do we hire this position? Because you want to scale, you want to grow. Is that be, you know, And this is kind of a bottleneck. So let's step back a second. If Mike were to leave today for whatever reason, what would happen to your business?

It would crumble apart.

Well, I doubt that, but I think that you— there would be something that you would do to make sure that that didn't happen. But so it would cause a struggle in your business if Mike were to leave.

Right. Yeah, we would. We would have to stop advising if he literally stopped today or whatever. We'd have to stop advising, stop doing sales consults. We could still do bookkeeping because we have an operations manager who is high in conscientiousness to offset Mike's low conscientiousness. So she, she would continue to make sure bookkeeping continued. But, you know, she's not well suited to— she's great at what she does, but she's not an advisor. So Um, we would basically be looking for someone to fill Mike's position. So yeah, it would, it would be significant emotional event.

All right, so, uh, being a, a former military guy myself, not to the level that you are, but the saying was one is none and two is one. And we always use that in our business as well. Like, we always want people to be cross-trained so that while it's not the best thing in the world to happen if you lose a Mike, or if I lose a Kelly or something like that, uh, the, the business doesn't stop, it doesn't halt, the clients aren't impacted directly, and we continue on. So let's, let's approach it from this angle, right? We want to make sure that if Mike were to leave today, that, that the business would continue and continue in its current fashion, and behind the scenes, the clients wouldn't know any different. So it's like a burrito, a well-hidden mess. Right? Sometimes the client, what they see, they get a yummy burrito, but they don't see how it looks inside. It looks all nasty, but it tastes really good. Same thing with our businesses sometimes. So what we want to do is to say, okay, that's the first thing that we need to do is to say, if Mike were to leave, uh, what, what, what is our fallback plan? So let's approach it from this angle first. What— so, so Mike, uh, sales calls, and advising. So he's basically the actor delivering the lines in the script. Is that a fair assessment?

Yep.

But he also has a background. He knows what he's talking about. So he's not like Sheldon talking about quantum physics and he doesn't know anything about it. He knows about accounting and tax and bookkeeping and advisory stuff, correct?

Right. Uh, yeah, yeah, he knows. He's an EA as well, and, uh, he's run a construction business, so he has a lot of domain knowledge and in all the right places.

Okay. All right. But he gets energized from actually meeting and speaking with the clients, correct? He gets drained, I heard you say, from doing the quality control and review and all of that, right? So Mike's ideal situation is to review everything that he needs so that he is prepared, review the lines of the script so that he can go into the meeting with the client and knock their socks off. Okay, and then also meeting with potential, uh, clients in a marketing capacity. So he's a relationship developer, correct, is what he is. Okay, so what I would tell you first of all is let's approach it from this angle. Let's look for someone who can emulate what Mike is already doing in that capacity. And I'll tell you, finding a Mike like that is, is, is tough because you're looking for somebody who has a personality and can develop relationships and also understands tax and bookkeeping. And sometimes bookkeepers and tax professionals aren't known for having that best personality. But then a lot of times— I'm painting with a broad brush here— you know, we find people who are very, you know, good at both, but they're more the exception than the rule. So what you're— what, in my opinion, what you want to look for here, um, and this is based upon my experience— trust me, I've been in your shoes, right, trying to find somebody. I've been in the one position where Mike left me and now I'm in there and it's, and it's just things are falling through the cracks. And, you know, that's not optimal and that's not going to be possible for you once you deploy. So my first thing to do is to, is to just write out everything that this person would do to be able to duplicate what Mike does. So I, you know, and this is just a session where I would say I would list all of the activities So, and this is probably something where you work with Mike on that to kind of build this together and approach it from a positive angle. Obviously, he knows that you're not trying to replace him. Have full exposure with him so he understands what's going on here. But also, you're picking his brain because you see a lot of the end results, but you, you may or may not, and since you've been in this position, you probably do, but may not understand all of the different things that happen beyond what you see as a result. So I would list out all those activities that he does, and then I would prioritize those, and I would come up with the top 3 to 5 of those things that you gotta have. All right, the attack, the activities that they need to be able to tackle, what are those? And I would back into it from that position. So that would be the first thing. So, so whether we're looking for an advisor or somebody else, let's first define it by what is the work that you to have done? What is the way in which you serve your client best? And if Mike were to leave, then the client's not going to be served, at least from an advisory capacity. And then no more business is coming in the door. So that is the first thing that I would do. Now, I would do that on the delivery side, what he is doing and communicating with the client. And I would also be doing that on the marketing and sales side. Sounds like he's more in a sales role. Than marketing per se. He's actually meeting, you know, like this face to either through whatever, whatever means, FaceTime. I can't think of Skype, all of that, or he's meeting face to face with them. So that's a different skill set, but it's still relationship building. So I would focus on it from both angles, like what are the key things that I need for somebody to do here? And you hit and this is something that I think that has made you really brilliant. Is this, is the DiSC personality, whether you use DiSC or Kolbe or the Big Five. There are several of these assessments out there. But what we always say is that, look, we write, I mean, we're doing this today. We're looking for a marketing operations person who can really kind of make sure that the trains get to the station on time. And we wrote down every single thing that we wanted. We presented it to the headhunter, and they pretty much laughed and said, "You're looking for a unicorn." And what we did is we came back and we said, "Well, these are the 3 things that we have to have." But if they score well in compatibility with our team, our rest of our marketing team on the Kolbe score and the Big 5, we can do without these. Because we know if somebody is, you know, really wants to serve somebody and wants to see the job through, whatever you call that, conscientiousness or, you know, self-starter. I mean, all of them have a different flavor, but finding that. So now we can say, these are, these right here are, we gotta have those. These are must-haves. These are nice-to-haves. But we also have to have this personality, right? So that is the first thing that I would tell you to look for. And I would also advise you on this, Daniel, is that you're probably not looking for one person. You're looking for two people. And, you know, right now in our world, we can hire people, you know, for 5 hours a week or 40 hours a week. The labor market is tight, right? And finding somebody that fits all of these things is, you know, it's a difficult process. That's one of the big things about doing what we do is finding good people. And now I have the mentality, it's like, if I find somebody who's good, I want to interview them. I don't have to have a position in mind. I just want to interview them. But I'm kind of digressing here. Sorry. But I think that you're looking for 2 people here. And it might be a new position. But also when I hire, I try to— if I'm going to hire a contractor or somebody is going to be part-time, I like to hire if I can and justify it, 2 people, because usually one of them is going to be a rock star and one of them is going to be a dud. No matter how much work that you do on the front end of it, it just seems to be that way. So first thing I would do is just to really pare down what it is that you have to have in this person. And then define the personality that they— you want them to have on top of that. Now, all the other stuff that you're looking for, you know, if tax and accounting experience and background is a must-have, then put that in there. And one of the things also with a position like this, the interview process is exactly what you want them doing with your clients. So I would put them through as a vetting part I would put them through a series of situations, interviews. Don't tell them that you're doing this, but put them in the same position that they are going to be in front of a potential client and then with your existing clients. So how can you simulate that same thing during your interview process? And you could, you could introduce them like, hey, here's, here's something that we're going to do. We're going to have that. But I like to not tell them because it seems like they get nervous. And I think that if I just do the interview and conduct it in the way, you know, interviews are stressful for people anyway. But if I, if I perform that interview the way in which they are going to be delivering that service, it tells me a whole lot about them. So that is the way that I would vet them. Now, where do you find these people, right? Where do you find them? Let me back up and let you answer this. So How did you go about finding Mike?

I posted on ZipRecruiter. I believe I also posted in groups like yours. You know, we have on our website, careers tab, and, and I believe Indeed, just kind of like the, that, and also just reached out to my network. You know, you know, asking my folks that I know, do you know anybody that would be interested in that? Those are the main ones.

Okay. And where did Mike end up coming from? What source?

He saw my post on ZipRecruiter and called.

Okay. All right. So it's not— it's not an either-or proposition. It's a flood the marketplace with your job. With what you need. You know, as a— we have had good work, good results with Upwork, but that's more for like contractor positions. But we've actually hired now 2 employees off of Upwork who've worked with us for 6 to 12 months. But here's something that's always right underneath our nose, and you may or may not have this, but ask yourself this question: Is there already somebody within my organization who could take on this role? Who I think has the potential to take on this role. So I'm just going to put that in your lap. Is there somebody already in your organization who could possibly fill this role?

I don't think so. I mean, in an emergency, maybe, but not, not as a sustainable thing.

OK. And what makes you, what makes you make that call right there?

Well, I'm also thinking of employees. I guess if I think of contractors to expand it as well. Contractors as well. Potentially, I don't, I don't know, I have to think about it. If I, you know, because I'm thinking of employees. I don't think they would be just because just knowing them, they're good at other things. Like I said, my ops manager is very high in conscientiousness, and, but she, she said it, and she also, she's really smart, and, but she's just wouldn't be able to sustain meeting people every, every day like that.

And sure.

And then on the contractor side, I'm not sure. I'd have to think about it. There might be someone, but nothing jumps into mind.

Okay. And I've had this hit me in the face in the last week. We're hiring another position. And the person that I was looking for was underneath my nose the entire time. And it took somebody actually last Friday with my business coach pointing it out to me. And I'm like, Ben, you egghead, you should have thought of that. And she is perfect because it's usually, you know, the further down the food chain that we go, typically the easier it is to find a position. For instance, it's easier to find somebody who can categorize expenses than it is to find another Mike. So if we can move people up, the position that we're going to fill where they vacated is usually easier to fill. That's just an experience. So always, and I just totally blew over this time, right? It's almost like I should have a written checklist. We're talking about writing things down. It's almost like I should have this written memo that says, Ben, when you're looking for somebody, always search within first, you know, and we're not a huge organization, but we should always search within because we have an advantage with them because they already know us. They're already into our systems. They know our clients. They have experience. They understand our brand. They understand our verbiage. So the training time with them, even though they're going into a new position, is infinitely less because they already have a platform to go from. But it sounds like in your case, you know, we don't— we may not have that. But if you do, if you end up saying, yeah, this contractor, I possibly could, you know, if you have a possible out there, interview them, put them, you know, ask them, hey, here's something. And, you know, I think that you might be a good candidate. Let's put you through the interview process just like everybody else. So I would start there. Second thing, have, have you talked to Mike about other people that he might know? Because usually Mike knows other Mikes.

Yes, he, he doesn't know. He doesn't know of anybody else like him that could fill the role. Yeah, we've talked about it.

Yeah. Okay.

All right.

So then it becomes guerrilla tactics, doing all the things that you talked about before. You know, we put our job on LinkedIn, we put it on Indeed, didn't put it on ZipRecruiter, but I did the same thing. I put— we have 47,000 people on our Facebook page. I put it out to all of them. I've gotten hundreds of applications and most of them are just garbage, right? No qualifications. But I've had a couple that have come through. And that's, as you know, you've hired plenty of people up to this point. That's just the nature of the beast. But it's going out there and finding all those. But what I just want to encourage you to do on that side is think not one person, but think probably two people that you want to bring in and split it up. And I would also encourage you and everyone who's listening to this, you know, when we commit to somebody as a job, as a W-2, as a full-time employee, we're making a strong commitment to them and they are to us. And if that doesn't work out, if the economy turns or situations change, and we have to let that person go, that's a hard drop. And what I like to do is to, and what we're doing with our marketing ops person is we're bringing them on contract, making sure that they actually fit the criteria of a contractor. Or we bring them on if they don't fit the, if they don't fit the contractor, then we bring them on as a part-time employee. OK. And we bring them on. And because one thing that we're doing in this is not only for the person, as we talked about at the very beginning of this, and as the advice that you gave is sage, processes before people. And I know that you already have good processes, but really, now that you're going to divide this up into two different sections, that would look a little bit different. And there might be some things that you have to, you know, that they wouldn't do that Mike is doing right now. And so there might be some alterations that have to happen to what Mike is doing versus what these new people would be doing. So let me ask you this. Do you see that it's possible for you to create somebody who did more of the sales work and then somebody who did more of the client interaction? Is that possible?

Yeah, it's possible.

Okay. Do you think that that's an easier acquisition of a person versus finding somebody who, who fits all of that stuff that you asked for?

I, I'd have to think, think on it. Yeah, I mean, it sounds good. I, and I'm definitely going to consider it. It sounds, I'd have to think about it. The thing with the sales and just what I'm going to speak off the top of my head. So the sales role does require a lot of in-depth knowledge because we try to provide a lot of value up front. So a lot of the, and we do have a script for the sales position and a process and all that stuff. But there's some content you need to know what you're kind of talking about. Like you can say, you know, have you automated your, your PEP to QBO, you know, invoicing process? You know, you can ask that question, but if there's any further in-depth discussion about it, the salesperson kind of needs to know what they're talking about. So which would either take more training or a lot, you know, and, and I guess more in-depth documentation.

Sure.

So that's, that's why I guess I'm hesitant. It makes sense. I like it because the salesperson, if you do have that person that is sales-oriented, that does know a lot, that learns a lot about the, you know, the advisor stuff, then there is some natural redundancy there that maybe they could step in if they have to into a client advising situation. Okay. I'm not, I'm not sure. I'm not 100% sure. And because I just have to think about it, but the salesperson and the advisor person, if they're talking about a lot of the same things, it seems like Well, I guess the salesperson would have to be lower on— they wouldn't need to be as conscientious. So it'd probably be easier to find that, that person and maybe just an influencer. But the advisor, I think, would still maybe not, you know. Yeah, it's definitely a— I'm sorry, I'm just thinking through it.

No, no, this is a podcast, bro. We can— yeah, we're all thinking off the top of our head and trying to help each other.

Yeah. Yeah, so, okay, definitely, it's— I'm giving it— I'll give it some thought. I'm just, um, there's still some challenges either way, it seems. But right, I do like the fact that if you're hiring 2 people, it creates more redundancy than what I'd already have, you know, just hiring one person, right?

Yep. And it's not going to cost you any more in the end, right? You, you still look for this unicorn. You don't abandon it. This is a shotgun approach, right? We're looking for the unicorn. We're swimming, swinging for the fences. But we're also trying to hit some singles. We're trying to find somebody who can get in there, who can fill that role. So that, that's an important thing. So I would really, you know, prioritize those tasks and look for the things that you have to have. And, you know, put that into your job description. You know, and have some, have some negotiables that you actually have in the qualifications that you that you know that you can be a little bit flexible on. Like if you're not a genius on QuickBooks Online, but you know Peachtree, that's an odd thing to know, but— or not Peachtree, sorry, Sage 50. I'm dating myself here. If you know MS-DOS, but if you, you know, if that would translate well, you know, if you knew one and you could learn the other, right? So those are things that you could say in the beginning are qualifications you must have, but later on you could back off of that a little bit. But But painting that picture, this, this is the person I'm looking for. So that would be one approach. And then dividing that role up. And the other thing, the other idea that popped in my mind, if, if Mike could only do one of those roles, if he could only be the advisor meeting with actual clients or only be in those sales presentations, which would he choose? Do you know?

I believe he would choose advisor.

Okay, okay. So that would be one thing that I would consider is that, uh, and I don't know if you have the, if you have the demand, right, for him only to be, uh, meeting with potential clients. And yeah, you're shaking your head no, so, um, you know, that might not make sense. But, uh, that's just one thing. But, you know, cross-training them over, and you're in a unique position, right, because most of the time the owner of the bookkeeping business and the advisory business is doing this work. So the fact that you've got a Mike in there, you should pat yourself on the back because that's a dynamite system to have in place where you, you know, you walk into the building if you had one and people go, who's that guy? Yeah. Oh yeah, he's the owner. Oh, I've never seen him before. That's exactly what you would want in your position. But I think that dividing it out and then going with a shotgun approach, guerrilla campaign, going out and doing the things that you have done before that work and finding somebody, I just would encourage you and caution you to, you know, hire somebody, commit to them full-time, you know, have a couple of dates before you move in together. We've kind of figured that out, our system for when we do, when we serve our students, right, is to figure out, you know, how we bring somebody on and make sure that we are, are not committing to them anything that we can't deliver on and that we're working them into the system. And it's kind of like in football, if you throw a rookie quarterback into the NFL, that's feeding him to the wolves. Best situation is to have a great quarterback, he backs him up for a year or two and learns the ropes, a la Aaron Rodgers, and that turned out pretty well. So that's just some things to consider. But I'll tell you, and, and I tell everybody this when we talk about team in hiring. It's not easy, but it is a nut that we have to crack if we want to grow into a real business. So you've already cracked the nut once. You already know how to crack it in that regard. I think that we're just going out there and taking a little bit different approach and adding actually some in addition to what you're already doing. Yeah, it makes sense. You know, and get out there on all of the message boards in which— message boards, here again, I date myself. Get on your AOL Messenger. You've got mail. But, you know, go into the groups that you're a part of and ask the admin before you post, you know, hey, I've got a position, can I post in here? Obviously, in our Facebook group, and, you know, it's going out there. I mean, like we mentioned earlier, 99% of what you get is not qualified people, but you're just looking for that diamond in the rough. And it takes a lot of sifting to go through. And I'll tell you, one of the— this is kind of a little secret tactic here. You may have heard me talk about this before, but one thing that we do in our job descriptions, very important thing to do in your position, in our position, pretty much in any position in life, is attention to detail. I put a little paragraph right in the middle that says, hey, please address your cover letter to Michael Scott or to Ricky Bobby or to something like that, just so that I know you're paying attention. And then I go down to the next thing. It's almost like, you know, It has no reason to rhyme, but I know that people are paying attention because a lot of time people just mass send their email. And so 90% of everybody that I get, I can immediately delete because they don't pay attention to that detail. And when you're presenting to clients, by golly, you're looking for somebody who's attention to detail, who looks at those reports and goes, that's not right. I'm not going into my client to talk to them when this isn't right. Yeah.

And I guess unless I'm looking for like a salesperson that I shouldn't be worried about their detail orientation.

Well, no, I would challenge you a little bit on that because, you know, they're probably going to be looking at financials to begin with. You're going to at least teach them that, you know, in a perfect world, you find that unicorn that has that skill too.

All right.

So I still would think we use it for every single position. So all of you out there, if you ever apply for a position with us, know that there is something an Easter egg in there that you're going to have to, to come back to us and let us know that it was in there.

Yeah, that's, that's a good idea. I was kind of just giving you some heartburn. Yeah.

Yeah. So I wish that I had an easy solution that I could just snap my fingers. I know that you do too, but otherwise it wouldn't be business. You know, we talked about the beginning of this episode of you know, hey, what were the str— what were the challenges? And, you know, you said, hey, you know, getting it up to learning bookkeeping, and then how do I manage 10 clients, and then how do I hire my first person? And this is just the next in a series, and it's not the last one. We as business owners, that's one of the beautiful things and one of the horrible things is that the buck stops with us and that we have to figure out every new challenge. And I love that because it's like I'm climbing a new mountain every week or every month. Every new challenge, it's different terrain. And yeah, it seems awful and wicked, and I don't know that what, what's at the next turn, but I know that I'm going to get up that mountain. And the same thing's going to happen here with you. Um, so use any and every purpose or means at your disposal to find this person. But I would just encourage you that this is something that you want to do and start sooner rather than later. Um, because, you know, if something were to happen, if Mike were to go, one is none, two is one.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, Daniel, I really, really appreciate you being with us today. Always. This is probably the third or fourth time that I've interviewed you, and every single one of them I learn stuff. And I'm looking forward to you being here in March and teaching processes. I'll be taking notes like crazy. So look forward— look forward to seeing you then.

Yeah, definitely. I really appreciate the opportunity to come on the podcast and I I also appreciate all the guidance that you provided. I definitely have some thinking to do and on some of your recommendations, and I'm sure that I will implement at least a few of them. So thank you.

Oh, you're very welcome. So just so that you know, and everybody else on the I Love Bookkeeping podcast knows, beware of the anecdote, right? Beware that this works for me, this worked for my situation, therefore it's going to work for you. One of the beauties is that you make the decision in your business. Everything comes down to you. You take this advice that I give, that Daniel gave, that anybody gives you, and you make it your own. One of the things that I'm really, really concerned about in our self-help age and, and other gurus and stuff like that, I think it's wonderful, but I think a lot of times we get very dogmatic saying, well, I have to do it this way because this person says. Take the advice. You know yourself better than anyone else and tailor it to your individual need. So, Daniel, with your situation, take everything that I say with a grain of salt. You've always been exceptional and had success at every juncture, and you will with this, and you'll take it and make your own.

So appreciate it.

That's all I have to say about that. All right. Well, thank you for being here, ladies and gentlemen. Daniel Honan. Listen, if you would like to hear more great conversations just like today's, then I want you to head on over to ilovebookkeeping.com. There you're going to find all of the shows, the notes, and some other great goodies that we have for you there. Now, if you'd like to be a guest on the I Love Bookkeeping Show, there is a link that says Be a Guest. Go in there and we'll walk you through the process of getting on the show. And finally, to discover more about our programs, go to the courses page on the ilovebookkeeping.com site. There you have it, another great episode of I Love Bookkeeping. Thank you for being a proud listener and thank you for being a bookkeeping professional. Enjoy the rest of your week.

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