Navigating HR Pitfalls & Elevating Team Performance in Residential Services with Ian Schotanus

Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast. The mission of this podcast is simple: to help you navigate the financial and tax aspects of starting, running, and scaling a professional painting business. From the brushes and ladders to the spreadsheets and balance sheets, we've got you covered. But before we dive in, a quick word of caution: while we strive to provide accurate and up-to-date financial and tax information, nothing you hear on this podcast should be considered as financial advice specifically for you or your business. We're here to share general knowledge and experiences, not to replace the tailored advice you get from a professional financial advisor or tax consultant. We strongly recommend you seeking individualized advice before making any significant financial decision.

This is Daniel, the founder of Bookkeeping for Painters, and today I'm here with Ian Scotanus. Super excited to have him on board. Ian Scotanus is a US Army veteran, experienced working in customer service, retail sales, service center repair, all before starting his 15-year journey to become the HR guy. As the go-to source for residential service companies for HR and safety compliance, Ian engages actively in social media communities, sharing collected knowledge to help educate, uh, business owners on how to build solid and compliant brand everyone on the team can focus their efforts on representing. Through his efforts, the HR Guy and his team at Big Picture Consulting have helped hundreds of businesses build their company culture and prevent or minimize financial damage caused by employee lawsuits, OSHA investigations, wage and hour division audits, and more. And outside of work, Ian is a father of 5 energetic growing children. Being a business owner, full-time consultant, and devoted father doesn't leave Ian much time or energy for much else, but when he gets the chance, he enjoys reading, volunteering at his church and children's schools, as well as playing video, board, or card games that he can get his hands on. Welcome to the podcast, Ian.

Thanks for having me.

Absolutely glad to have you on here. Now, I think these topics that you're like the expert in, a lot of folks, um, are kind of scared of, and they try to bury their head in the sand on, on a lot of these topics. But it's— they're super important to like, um, understanding, you know, what the risks are in business and, and how to move forward. Um, how did you get into this? Like, how did you get into HR consulting?

So actually, first I wanted to correct one thing. I was in the Navy for 6 years, not the, not the Army.

Uh, did I say Army? I'm sorry.

But, uh, my road to becoming an HR consultant was not the traditional path of HR pros that you may interact with out— interact with out there. Uh, I started off as a technician, advanced electronics. I worked HVAC and plumbing and even did a lot of painting while I was in the Navy and then transitioned into customer service. And I did retail sales and sold everything across Best Buy, uh, transitioned back to my electronic roots. And then it was honestly because I got fired from being a technician because I yelled at a senior technician for having to fix their stuff. I was fired overnight and left with not a whole lot of prospects. And then an opportunity presented itself to use my business education and my safety know-how to start building this HR and safety compliance support program. for a company that really focused on payroll processing and workers' comp and things like that. And my wife and I ended up relocating with our newborn child and, uh, started that journey. And then over the course of 10 years, built this out to identify what, uh, residential service providing companies really needed, what made them unique against where they're caught in the crossfire between the laws that are written, the regulations they're expected to follow, and then the reality of their business model. So a lot of unique challenges that are faced by business owners today, especially that the laws just really weren't written for, and it's tough to navigate that.

So what are those unique challenges that residential service companies are facing compared to other industries?

So what residential service providers are doing is they're effectively sending out one or two-man offices out onto the road, accountable really only to themselves, uh, and entering customers' homes to do work. There's a huge amount of trust and liability that's associated with that type of operation. That office workers just can't even wrap their heads around. And there's a reason why there's not very many HR professionals that focus on the trades and their ties to connect or to construction or residential service where, you know, you have to have much more enhanced vehicle policies, driving safety, things of that nature that that your office cubicle workers just don't have to deal with on a day-to-day basis.

Yeah, that's— so there's a lot. It's one of those things I don't think folks think about much. And I like how you put it, basically sending out offices that are— then you have folks working in other people's homes. And so there's a lot of extra things that you know, someone like a bookkeeper, they're sitting in their, you know, either an office or in their own home working remotely. There's, you know, there's not that concern at all. And so there's— it sounds like there's a whole bunch of extra stuff that, you know, residential service companies need to be paying attention to that just a lot of other industries don't even have to worry about at all.

Absolutely. I'm just— a lot of liability Even down to if one of your employees doesn't do their job correctly and causes damage in a customer's home, uh, that's its own set of liability that different insurance companies may be battling it out. And in the meantime, you're getting negative PR, the employee doesn't know what's going on. When do you hold them accountable for their actions? How do you hold them accountable? And At the end of the day, what everybody needs to be focused on is how is everybody's actions representing your brand? Mm-hmm. So whether you have one employee working for you or 500 employees working for you, you have those challenges, a lot of the same challenges because each individual is going out and acting almost as their own agent. But again, it's under your brand as a business owner.

Yeah. What are some common pitfalls that you see residential service industries, you know, committing, or residential service companies committing, um, and what can they do to avoid them?

So one of the biggest things, uh, comes down to compensation, you know, proper timekeeping. In different states, they have different rules for what counts as on-the-clock time versus not. Uh, are you paying your employees hourly rates, or are you doing task pay or commissions? And are you following the laws again, that were not written with a residential service type of company in mind? So for painters especially, there are overtime exemptions so that you can avoid having to pay extra after 40 hours, but there are still rules that you have to follow to claim that exemption. And that's what a lot of people misunderstand, because companies like ADP or Paychex, or, you know, even workers' comp carriers will say, yeah, just pay them. If you pay them commission, just mark it as commission. You don't need to worry about their hours. And the Department of Labor will take a completely different view of that and make your life miserable as soon as anybody complains. So my role as an HR consultant is to help prevent that risk, to help make those corrections before anybody makes it a problem.

Yeah.

So payroll is definitely one of the, is one of the biggest and easiest mistakes to make as most companies are trying to find efficient, effective ways to pay people good money, even to represent the brand and deliver the services. But you still have to do it the right way.

Yeah.

The other complexity that comes in that throws business owners and employees for a loop is communication, working with customers and how you're presenting company information to them, how you're then turning around and relating to each other. Um, you know, The interpersonal dynamics, the human, you know, human resources. A lot of technicians and a lot of field workers, like I said, are out there by themselves kind of acting as their own boss. They're only really accountable to themselves unless something goes wrong. Well, they take that attitude and sometimes it creates a hostile environment between field workers and office staff or field workers and leadership. And that also disrupts the brand and can cause all sorts of different, um, legal risks when you get into sexual harassment or workplace violence or, you know, just an aggressive atmosphere if things start getting stressed. Not that we've had anything to be stressed about over the last, you know, 5 years or so.

No, of course not.

So, and then the final big thing, especially for the painting community, is, uh, OSHA safety requirements around hazardous materials and making sure you have proper documentation, making sure that the employees have proper training and, uh, access to the required information, safety data sheets, and organization of that. Making sure that they're properly trained on operating their vehicles, you know, that have your nice logo on it and things of that nature, as well as any other hazards they may face. And, you know, risk assessment on site, you know, if they're using any sort of scaffolding, there's all sorts of regulations related to that that you have to actively train on every year. So are you keeping up with your required safety training? Do you have core policies? And do your employees have access to the required PPE policy and emergency response? So if something goes wrong, do they know what to do?

Yeah, that's a lot. That's a lot of compliance. So, uh, so we talked about payroll. paying your folks the correct way, make sure you're not breaking any rules there. Then you got hazmat, making sure you have safety data sheets, disposing of, you know, all these chemicals that we're dealing with properly. Vehicle operations, you have policies in place for your, your team and that they're abiding by those policies because they're probably driving in some cases company vehicles. Um, and then also making sure you're. Up on the training and you're abiding by OSHA regulations with using ladders, scaffolding, whatever the case may be.

So those are the, those are the, and the interpersonal, the, oh yeah, yeah, that's right.

I skipped that one.

The different types of personalities that you have normally operating in different parts of your company. Because yeah, and, and that's really the most, obviously that's the most critical to an HR function. Is making sure that everybody is communicating compliantly, correctly, civilly, as well as functionally to support the brand. Because everybody's on the same team. So anything that interferes with understanding between the three core sections of any service company— you have field workers, you have office and support staff, and you have leadership. Now for smaller companies, it may be the leader is also the office staff, or the leader's also the field worker with one office staff, you know, things like that. But as you grow, it gets more and more complex and more personalities, you know, enter the, enter the picture. And, you know, again, today it's hard to get more than a couple people together without some sort of argument breaking out. Especially during an election year.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. So I guess, how can— so, uh, for the communication piece, how does HR help with that? Is it like defining roles and duties and roles and kind of for each position to make sure there's— it's clearly documented on who's doing what? Is that kind of the—

so there's the, there's the obvious cornerstone of interpersonal relationships and that's having a viable up-to-date functional employee handbook. So setting out those expectations of how you are expected to treat each other, how you're supposed to respond to things relating to just being an employee with the company. The second level is setting clear expectations and providing the training and tools necessary for what it means to represent the brand. So for field workers, for office staff, there's going to be different sets of expectations, but you have to make sure that they are clearly explained. Now, whether that's detailed job descriptions or SOPs, you know, the bigger you get, the more of those detailed documents and supporting docs that you're going to want. But just having those regular conversations, this is the expectation, this is what I'm seeing, how do we get to where we want to be. And sometimes through this process, employers and managers may find that their expectations weren't reasonable. So you need to be open. At the same time, leadership needs to be open to revisit those expectations and reset them and start the process over again. But the critical piece for any business is making sure you hold people accountable. And doing so, it's not— it should not be about nailing somebody to the wall because they did something wrong. It should be an opportunity to improve behaviors and support the brand and provide services to the customer, because that's what everybody who's operating under that brand is there to do, is provide solutions to the customer. Whether you're a painter, an electrician, it doesn't matter. You're in somebody's home. You're representing your employer, the brand, to execute. So making sure that you're doing that, and again, anything that gets in the way of executing that mission has to be addressed. You can't be afraid of losing your best person or tolerating bad behavior because you get what you tolerate. And that's how cancer, cancer develops within a company culture. If you allow bad actions to proceed without people understanding that there is accountability, you're trying to course correct. And at some point, if, as soon as you don't see any real hope of course correction or improved behaviors, that's where you need to cut ties because it's much better to cut ties early and let somebody go. Than to continue accepting bad behavior that goes against your brand. And eventually something bigger will happen, whether it's an incident in front of a customer or conflict with a coworker or a lawsuit.

Yeah. Yeah. So it sounds like making sure you have an updated employee handbook that clearly outlines the expectations for each position. Because like you said, like setting, making it clear even before you hire somebody what the expectations of that job, that position are. So there's not a mismatch when they come in there. They had one thing in their mind on what this job entailed and then they get there and they're like, it's completely different. That's a good way to lose folks really quick. Um, but yeah, that's, that seems like that's a big piece. And then, and then ongoing training you mentioned. To make sure that everyone's representing their brand. And it reminds me of, of Disney. You know, they have a very strong brand. Everyone has a different opinion, obviously have, uh, they have some connotations to the Disney brand. Maybe they're bad for some folks, maybe they're good for some other folks, but there is some sort of connotation there. They have a strong brand, whereas like if I'm going to see a Disney movie versus like a, uh, Paramount Pictures movie, Like, at least for myself, I have no— I don't even know if I can name a Paramount Pictures movie. But Disney has that strong brand. And I know that they have— because I'm in Orlando, so we just went to Disney World. So I'm thinking this is top of mind for me. They go through training, ridiculous training for all their, what they call, cast members, folks that work at the park, on how to hug a kid, how to, you know, interact with folks, how to, what to say specifically, like using certain words on calling folks, uh, certain things. And it's all crazy amount of detail on how everyone's representing the Disney brand in that park. And so, and obviously Disney's been around for 100 years or whatever it is now, and, uh, and I think there's some lessons to be learned, it sounds like. From, you know, all the things that, that, that, that Disney's doing, implementing that into our own businesses so that our folks are representing our brands appropriately.

Now, there is a counterbalance to that. And if you are so rigid and if you're so detailed on what you're expecting, again, look at the difference in the business model between Disney, which is everybody on location at each of these locations, and they're operating as one entity. Whereas, you know, your client, you know, the, the painting organization service providers, they've got that family feel or they've got that group of people, but they're all scattered acting independently. If you're trying to over-control and over-dictate how they're speaking and what words they're using and things like that, It can create resentment and people, you know, undermining your brand because they think they know better. Mm-hmm. When you leave individuals to their own devices, are they gonna follow the script or are they gonna go their own way? And how would you even capture those deviations with, until you get a customer complaint? So you have to watch out for that. And that's where the balanced-griffin HR comes in to help translate and balance the needs of employers trying to build a solid brand, but also the needs of employees who really do need to be treated as adults. And they're, they're there as a professional, whether it's professional painter, technician, whatever. They are there to solve a problem for the customer. and they need to represent the brand, but they also need to be true to themselves so that they're happy representing the brand. You know, there's also a lot of horror stories around Disney and employees, cast members who have left, and, you know, they, they toe the line of their nondisclosure agreements for, you know, it's, it's not a cakewalk. It's not an easy job. And a lot of people burn out doing it. You don't want that. You want consistency, especially in smaller companies as you're trying to grow, because you, if you have happy employees, you're, they're gonna help recruit new employees into the mix. And you want them delivering the message and being consistent so that you're getting the core of your brand represented at all times, at all levels.

Yeah. And I think, you know, that's a good segue into like company culture, like having happy employees that are, or maybe that's happy employees, like productive, you know, employees that, that feel fulfilled when they're working with you. Maybe, maybe a better way to, to describe it. But what are some ways that, that that, uh, businesses can instill a strong culture that, that does attract and keep folks in their business.

So it all, it all starts with identifying what you want your brand to represent. And then, you know, it's easier said than done, but once you have that idea of what type of character you're looking for, what type of mindset you're looking for, then you build your interview process. So you're gonna be asking questions to extract the information and find out what are the odds they're gonna help you represent your brand and grow your brand. And then if you're following that process, as you grow, you're bringing in people that should be within tolerance level of that core philosophy. Sometimes people slip through, sometimes people change their mindsets. It's part of being human. So, but the biggest thing that employers need to do to drive that positive company culture is ask questions rather than making declarative statements. So my favorite question as a leader and as the owner of my company is, how did, how does you doing X help represent the brand? It's a beautiful question that can be used for investigative purposes. It can be used in a positive light and it can be used as, you know, you're, you're calling somebody out, but you're making them engage. Even if they, somebody had a completely crap day and everything went wrong, they did stuff wrong. They were called out by their boss. But even if they just get a sense of satisfaction by answering that question and acknowledging that, yeah, I did something wrong, I'm committing to do better, you can drive that point home as a positive. That's your win for the day is recognizing you can and will do better. And then you proceed accordingly instead of just, you did this wrong, you're nothing, you're garbage. You know, that's the feeling that employees get left with when you're on the attack and you're using accountability as a disciplinary weapon. So you ask questions and make employees engage so they're part of the process. Even if you know the end result, you're going to fire somebody or you're, you're going to take this action, you still go through the steps of engaging with the employee, making them part of the solution, even if you're leading them to where you already know you're going go. But you still also have to be open-minded enough that they could legitimately have a reason why they acted like this, and you give them the benefit of the doubt. Yeah. And if they present you with a good story or a reasonable explanation, okay, you can pivot and go, okay, how do we prevent this? Is it a revisiting of expectations? Do we need more training or equipment? Or is, is it a disciplinary action? But by asking questions, you give yourself the freedom and less stress instead of having to smack down an employee. And that's why most employers try to avoid accountability because they don't want the fight.

Yeah. I like the question. So it's, uh, how, how did your actions represent the brand? Is that right?

How did doing X help represent the brand.

Yeah. Cool.

And you can throw off your employees at the beginning as you're implementing this tactic, using it for positive. So, you know, they did something good and you call 'em out, hey, I saw that you did this. How, how does this help represent the brand? And they, they're gonna, the first couple times you do this, they're gonna immediately jump to, what did I do wrong?

Mm-hmm.

And, but no, you want them to think about it and be honest with themselves and engage in the process. So they say, well, I, I think it represented it well because I took care of the customer. I did this action, you know, whatever. You're absolutely right. Thank you. That's exactly it. And you give them that positive reinforcement, which they go home knowing, you know, they have that sense of satisfaction and purpose and It's because, and really what it ends up doing is building an emotional connection to the brand that they're working for. Nice.

I like it.

Awesome.

Um, so what, so we talked about communication, brand, uh, culture. Are there any other like really big topics that, and also compensation a bit, but are any really big topics that are common pitfalls that, you know, service-based businesses are doing?

That hiring— yeah, another challenge that a lot of companies face, you know, especially when unemployment is so low and there's not as many job seekers, is hiring people, not necessarily the right people. So if you're just trying to fill, fill spots because you have more work than you can handle and you need people out there working, you're tempted to lower your standards and let red flags slip by. You have to resist that urge. You have to resist, I need, I need a butt in the truck. You can't fall for that because if you're, putting out the wrong people that are not gonna represent your brand, you're causing yourselves bigger heartache down the road. Now there's always a chance of redemption and things like that, but if you're not setting 'em up for success or yourself up for success, you're gonna end up burning a lot more stress and time and energy and, you know, meetings with people like me going, okay, how do I get rid of this guy and not get too, because they've set us up, or they're not acting this way, you know, in the right way, or they're negatively influencing previously longtime good technicians or, you know, staff. So you have to make sure you're hiring the right people and, and be willing to, to tell customers, we're slammed, we're, we're working to get everybody taken care of, we just need a little bit of time. Have a backup, you know, pull the whole, you know, Macy's and Gamble, uh, you know, deal with, hey, if you need something done more immediately, you know, I recommend, I recommend going with this guy. We're, you know, competitors, but I, I would rather see you taken care of. And that's building that emotional connection to you, even if it's a short-term loss. You were too busy to take the job anyway.

Mm-hmm.

So you gotta think about these things rather than just pushing out work to push out work with the wrong people.

Yeah.

And from my experience, hiring the wrong person is hugely expensive. So like, oh yeah, I mean, that's, that should be a motivator right there. Like hiring the wrong person, they're in the slot for like 6 months. You train them for 3 and then they did a horrible job for the next 3 and then you fire them and you have to start all over again.

And I'm an HR expert and, and we've fallen into that trap ourselves. I mean, it's very easy to, to say, okay, well, we really like this about them, but this, these are the red flags, but we can work with that. And you have to be true to yourself. And that's, you know, it, it's so difficult to do. And that's why partnering with an impartial third party you know, to, to have a sounding board, whether that's a coach, a mentor, an HR guy, whatever the, whatever your resource is that you're gonna reach out to for to get that impartial advice. You just like what you have to do when you're dealing with your employees. You have to trust and accept that they are looking out for your best interest when they give you advice, especially if they're giving you advice that you're not necessarily liking.

Yeah. And, and for hiring, we kind of touched on these things, but when you're going through the hiring process, sounds like one, you need to make sure they're a culture fit. We talked about that, like a culture fit there, you know, they buy into your core values or they, they exhibit your core values or whatever that is. Number two, they need to, you need to go through the expectations, which we talked about. That what they think of the job is and what you think the job is are the same. I think number 3 would obviously be the skill to do the job, some sort of, you know, they have the acumen to do it. And then the last one I would think, and I might be missing something here, but would be making sure they're a long-term fit, or like they're not gonna Um, you don't want a revolving door, right? They're, they're there for the couple months that's convenient for them, and then they're gonna go be an astronaut or whatever. Like, there needs to be, uh, some sort of long-term fit so you're not wasting your time and money.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, and that, and that kind of goes towards the character. And if you have a brand, if you establish that brand as what they're working for That should be unchanging. Everybody has the same core goals: represent the brand, provide services and solutions to the customer. And that's what managers kind of lead through is by managing between those two goalposts. So those that accept the brand and recognize the brand as its own purpose that you're striving to be worthy of. FOMOs, uh, those are going to be the long-term employees. If somebody's only interested in their paycheck and they're harping, you know, non-stop about this, that, or the other, and they're, you know, they're just thorns in the paw, you got to deal with it sooner rather than later because you can't pay those people enough, um, ever. And eventually they're going to find something that they can hold against you, and that's where lawyers and government get involved. And, you know, that's where I'm, I'm out of ability for me to help. Yeah, once lawyers get involved, I have to take a back seat, and it's like, okay, we're, we're hanging on for the ride now. Let's see what happens.

Yeah, I guess if someone's listening right now and they're like, and I have some folks, or I have this one person that just like they're, they're checking all the boxes of this person doesn't need to be here anymore. What can they do to try to, to get that person out the door without getting sued? I guess, like, how— what do they start doing to, to get them moving towards exit without, like, breaking any rules?

Well, the great thing about operating a business in the U.S. is that 49 out of 50 states are what's called at-will employment. You don't need to have a direct cause why you're letting somebody go. You don't have to go into details that, you know, such and such gives office staff the heebie-jeebies. It's something that's not definable. It's something that, you know, if you actually said that could lead to discrimination, you know, complaints and things like that. So you need to understand the You know, having a good reason to let somebody go is not the same as a for-cause reason. If you're going to let somebody go at will, you just need a general reason— not meeting performance expectations, failure to communicate or follow safety policy, some general topic that you can tie it to. You can legitimately just say, you know what, your services are no longer required. By the risk of that is, if you don't give them any reason at all, they're likely to fill in the blank themselves. And if there's any sort of aggrieved status that could be claimed, whether it's race, gender, political, religion, anything along those lines that they can fill in the blank themselves. Whether it's based in reality or not, if you didn't give them a reason, their reason instantly gains credibility. So letting somebody go, have— give them some sort of reason and document it. So at-will separation for failure to meet performance expectations is my number one go-to that I fill out on most separation notices. At will just means you can go get unemployment, go file for benefits, whatever. I'm not getting in your way. If they violated direct company policy, if they're always late, if they're not showing up, they're requesting time off and not giving you a chance to get it scheduled. So yeah, I need vacation tomorrow and, you know, tomorrow and Thursday. Or Thursday, Friday, or whatever. And you're like, okay, you're telling me you're not requesting anything. So, you know, that's why if you have an employee handbook, those are violation of policy that you can legitimately go, this just isn't worth our bother to put up with anymore. So this is why we're moving you out. But you, you have a reason.

Yeah, bottom line, have a reason. And you said 49 out of 50 states. What's the one state that does not?

Funny enough, it's Montana. Everybody assumes, everybody assumes it's California.

Yeah, that was my guess.

California is the, is definitely above and beyond on most things, but Montana is the one that has employment contracts. And then Oregon is the one state that does not allow employees to legally determine whether or not they want to take lunch. Hmm. Everywhere else in the country, even if the state requires an employer to give access to a meal break, everywhere else employees are legally allowed to say, you know what, I'm an adult, I just don't want to stop working and take lunch. In Oregon, they're violating the law, and you as the employer have to force them to follow the law, or ultimately you have to fire them because they refuse to follow the law, putting the company and the brand at risk.

That's crazy.

Yeah, it's absolutely nuts. So that, that's what makes me different as an HR professional than most others that you'll ever interact with, because I understand this from the employer standpoint. I'm not just automatically on the employee side or the employer side. I'm there to protect the brand. And those that, you know, do work with me, that's, that's what they know they're getting whenever I give advice. And that gives me the freedom to not always toe the, the social line or that, because service companies, businesses are different. You have different personalities that want to go into other people's homes to do professional work. You have to account for that in your policies and you have to account for that when you're reacting to situations. So if you, if you follow the typical HR lines, you're, you're never going to be able to operate or properly manage a team of individually minded people like what most service providers end up employing and hiring.

Yeah, that makes sense. Cool. Well, how can folks reach out to you? Uh, well, first of all, what— how can you help folks? And then how can folks get a hold of you?

So what my firm does, the Big Picture Consulting, and you can find us at thebigpictureconsulting.com, Um, or you can look me up on Facebook under H.R. Guy. Uh, that— what we do is we provide a support structure at a very low cost for giving foundational support, like writing a custom employee handbook, full safety program compliant with OSHA, safety training information, uh, based on individual hazards for you. Everything we do is customized. Per state, per company, and desired business strategy. Um, and then on-call support. So my employee just did this ridiculous thing, how do I respond? I heard about this new law, what am I supposed to do? How is this going to impact? Uh, do I have any options in XYZ situation? Always call, email, that sort of thing. We give you that instant peace of mind. We also offer additional services for as you grow. If you're looking at unique compensation plans, we help design, develop, implement, make sure everything is compliant with overtime laws. And then we can even run payroll, you know, set up companies with payroll processing and employee file management. We work with HRIS platforms that also do payroll. So we can help with recruiting and onboarding tasks that normally require somebody in-house. We can take a lot of that load off. So for those companies that are too small to hire a dedicated HR professional, we can fill that role for smaller. And then once you do have an in-house HR professional, we're still a valuable added resource. So really whatever your unique company needs are, but at the core of it is we want to help you build your brand, understand your brand, and then manage your team around that concept to keep you out of court. We want to minimize the odds that you have to deal with the government or lawyers.

Yes. Awesome. Yeah, this is excellent. So yeah, if you definitely need, if you need some HR help, Ian's your guy. And what, what was the, uh, one more time, what was the website? And we'll make sure we'll put the, the website in the description too.

Thebigpictureconsulting.com. Unfortunately, all the, all the shorter versions are very expensive to nail down.

All right, awesome. thebigpictureconsulting.com. We'll put that in the show notes as well. I appreciate your time. You've been super generous, Ian. Um, is there any last words of advice for painting businesses?

When When in doubt, ask somebody. Don't— do not react to emotional situations. Step back and take the time that you need to respond properly.

Excellent. All right, awesome. Well, I appreciate your time, Ian, and with the listeners, we'll talk to you next week.