Profit follows process: turning brushwork into a scalable, data-driven company

Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast. The mission of this podcast is simple: to help you navigate the financial and tax aspects of starting, running, and scaling a professional painting business. From the brushes and ladders to the spreadsheets and balance sheets, we've got you covered. But before we dive in, a quick word of caution. While we strive to provide accurate and up-to-date financial and tax information, nothing you hear on this podcast should be considered as financial advice specifically for you or your business. We're here to share general knowledge and experiences, not to replace the tailored advice you get from a professional financial advisor or tax consultant. We strongly recommend you seeking individualized advice before making any significant financial decision.

Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the show where painting contractors learn how to boost profits, cut taxes, and build a business that works for them. I'm your host, Daniel Honan, CPA, former painting business owner, and your guide to mastering the numbers that drive success. So let's dive in and make your business more profitable one episode at a time. I'm super excited today to have Jay Mason out of Utah. How's it going, Jay?

Doing wonderful. Thank you for having me, Daniel.

Absolutely. No, I'm super excited to get into things. I know you've, you've built a pretty formidable business. So could you kind of give folks an understanding of where, where you got started, how you got started in the painting industry, and what have been some major milestones along the way?

Yeah, no, thank you. I have kind of an interesting story of how I got involved in the paint industry. My dad worked 46 years for Sherwin-Williams, and so I grew up around paint stores and also painting contractors. My dad, as kids, would involve us with overnight sales trips, and I remember probably being 10 to 12 years of age walking job sites with a hard hat on and, you know, just seeing kind of how painters did things. And I guess, you know, it was impressionable upon myself, and so at 16, I begged for a job to work with Sherwin-Williams as well. And so I spent my first 13 years learning the industry from the Sherwin-Williams angle. And so I worked in, you know, as a store manager and last 4 years as an outside salesperson at Sherwin. And then I guess I like to say I got smart and decided to go on the contracting side of it, but kind of in a unique way. I was recruited away from Sherwin-Williams by a painting franchise organization. Spent 2 years there training their new franchise owners on how to run and operate painting businesses following systems and processes and things of the sort. And so that's how I really got more introduced to the contracting end of it. And then 10 and a half years ago, started Paint Easy, and we are in the franchising space as well. And, and so, yeah. It's a, it's, it's been an interesting ride, you know, starting off with the Sherwin-Williams side of things and learning the business more from the technical standpoint of coatings. And then over the last, you know, 12 years, doing, learning it more from the contracting side of it, following a lot of systems and processes.

That's awesome. Yeah, that's, that's a pretty cool story. So You've seen the industry from a lot of different perspectives. You started out in Sherwin-Williams, ran Sherwin-Williams store as a manager, worked for another franchisor. And then now you have your own franchise where you've, I'm sure, dug into the details of each location at some point or another. And I think you guys, you have a, if I'm not mistaken, at least a couple dozen, maybe a few dozen locations across the US at this point, right?

Yeah, we hit— we currently have 76 locations with 62 owners across the country and average growing 3 to 4 new locations monthly. And so, yeah, we're able to really analyze the business from various marketplaces as also with various backgrounds coming into the industry and really helping them learn the paint business from a technical standpoint as well.

That's awesome. So I'm, you know, this, this year, I'm just curious that this, this has come up a lot. 2025 has seen, has been a little bit of a weird year for a lot of folks. And since you've been in the industry for so long and also have so many locations throughout the United States, have you seen that kind of play out as well? Or have you been seeing something different?

Yeah, it has been a weird year. I guess we would attribute it, we feel, to, you know, kind of the catch-up of normalization from after the COVID rush, things of that. We feel like it's just more of a normalization of what marketplace may look like. But there are certain marketplaces, we have a number of areas of the country where we're having record years. We also have certain areas of the country that are down a little bit this year. And so there are certain marketplaces that it's definitely been a little bit more weird or volatile this year than what we've seen in years past as well.

Yeah, I think that's a good point. I think we kind of got, you know, 2020 through 2023 kind of got spoiled a little bit in the painting industry where we kind of expected it just to come so easy and It was a great time. It was just like crazy on, on how easy it was to get work. And I think now we're just coming back down to reality. And, and also there was probably some demand that was pulled forward, you know, folks that did all the work that they needed to do. So they kind of knocked it all out in those years. And then now there's just less, less— they did all the things. There's probably some of that. But also, you know, just, there's just not that as much, I guess, funds going around for that sort of those sort of projects. So I think, you know, it's going back to normal, like you said. So I think that's a good analysis. Cool. Well, tell me more about getting started in the, like, franchising painting Like, why did you start at the franchise level instead of starting your own location? What attracted you to, to starting a franchise?

Yeah, I think the biggest thing was recognizing how important systems and processes are to the development of a business. I saw it from the other hand working with Sherwin-Williams and working, you know, at the the— when I finally left there, I had roughly a book of business of 350 to 400 contractors that I worked with, you know, day in and day out and whatnot. And there was a couple things that I— individuals struggled keeping themselves consistently busy, um, and then they also struggled with either cash flow management or just overall profitability within their business. And what I found from the franchising side of things, that following a having a standard set of systems and processes and really just systemizing the business as much as you possibly can creates a lot better opportunities for consistency and also for profitability within a business. And so that's what really attracted me more to the franchising route. And what's really kept me into the franchising space is just seeing where, you know, we, we actually take individuals who know nothing about painting, how to paint walls or, you know, paint a house for that, you know, better or worse. And we teach them all the technical parts or the fundamental parts of painting, but really look at it from following systems and processes and more from a business owner mindset versus a tradesperson mindset. And really what that does is it allows us to scale the business typically quicker than a lot of other companies and also shows for more profitability typically as well.

Yeah. So it sounds like you guys have the playbooks to run a painting business. You get a business owner, you train them up on the basics, give them the playbooks on how to run the business, and that allows them to grow the business a lot more quickly than they would have, you know, on their own terms, basically. Correct.

Awesome.

Um, so what do you, what do you think, like, uh, could you kind of— I know you said you had 76 locations, right?

Yes, that's correct.

All right, and what is the, like, the average size of those locations?

Yeah, so last year average revenue was $742,000. And out of that $742,000, we had an average net margin of 24.4%. Wow. And typically what will happen is that we were able to grow that top line revenue over time as the business owners become more and more comfortable with the business and learning those systems and processes. And so that will typically grow in time as well.

Yeah. Well, that net margin, that's really impressive because 24% on a business that's doing $400,000, $500,000, we usually recommend 30% ideally. But if you're doing that on average, I mean, that's really impressive, 24% net profit. So that definitely speaks a lot to whatever you're teaching them over there at Paint Easy in terms of how to run a business because that's a really outstanding net profit. And that's the average. So I'm assuming you definitely have folks that go way above that as well. What are the, what are the key things do you think that a painting business needs to do to ensure that they are profitable?

Yeah, I think one, knowing your numbers and, and also with knowing your numbers, making sure that everything's being tracked. Having a good accountant or bookkeeper is really, really important. And then, you know, whether it's QuickBooks or whatever software you're utilizing, being able to analyze those reports and know those numbers month in and month out and evaluating, uh, we're really big with job cost every single job that we do. And so we're able to go through each and every project from a coaching perspective and evaluate Where were their wins? Where were their losses? And where do we need to make adjustments? And it's through those little— and a lot of times it's not even huge adjustments that need to be made. It's a lot of times micro adjustments of, you know, how do we tighten up a number on marketing? Or how do we tighten up a number on how much material costs that we're using on a project and things of those nature. And, and, and By doing that really helps aid in profitability and helping grow the business, you know, long term that way as well.

Yeah, job costing definitely, I think, is a big one too, like getting that instant feedback, especially doing it in a timely manner, like as you go or at the end of the week or something so you can get that instant feedback. For, you know, to make changes or to see what went wrong and make those fixes. Do you guys use the employee model or the subcontractor model?

So we start with a subcontractor model and evolve to employees over time. So we would consider ourselves a hybrid model, but do start with the business on a sub-model for sure.

Okay. Folks that use the sub model, the one of the things that we hear is, you know, and I'm just curious on how did you guys are big into systems and handling things from a systemized perspective. When you have a sub that is like, oh, this isn't enough money. You know, for this job, we, you know, how do you kind of handle pushback when you're, when you're getting, or how do you approach negotiating with subcontractors to ensure that, you know, it's a win-win?

Yeah, I, I think that's an excellent question. And that's something that we actually train on a lot is the fact of not every job is going to be a perfect job for each and every contractor that you present a work order to as well. And so not having hurt feelings if a contractor turns you down for the rate that you're offering to pay or that's in the budget to pay, I think is important to know. I think it's also important from a subcontracting perspective, building a Rolodex of subs that fit the various niches of the business that you service and really building relationships with those subs to where you can have those honest communications with them. I like to kind of explain it this way. I like sports. Sports, and baseball is one that's easy for me to kind of give the analogy of, that there's going to be some jobs that are going to be more like a single where it's, you know, it's a one-day job. We're kind of making wages for everybody for the day and nothing to get too excited about. But then there's going to be those other jobs that are home runs, grand slams, that, you know, maybe it's a 10-day project and, you know, they're getting paid $15,000 or something like that for the labor portion of that project. And it ends up being, a home run for that contractor as well. And then there's going to be some doubles and triples that are sprinkled in there as well. And so when I talk to these, when we talk to contractors, helping them understand that not every job is going to be created equal, there's going to be some that you probably don't like and there's going to be some that you're going to love. And then there's going to be some in the middle. And let's look at it from a portfolio standpoint. Can we keep you busy week in, week out? Can we keep you where we've got consistent cash flow coming in, things of that nature as well. And really just trying to create a win-win partnership with these subs. You know, subcontractor relationships for me is one of the most critical components to the business. And if you treat subs as that they're just the labor, then that's what you're going to get out of it. You're going to get people who want to negotiate you like crazy. They're going to be ruthless. They're going to try to cut corners. They're, you know, not going to treat your clientele well, but if you're trying trying to create a real win-win partnership with these individuals and, and, and helping these individuals build their business by paying them fair market values and things of that nature as well, then you can really build a business off of it as well.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So basically, keep it— if they, if they are upset or not as happy with one particular job pay, you know, try to help them see the bigger picture and that this is a longer-term relationship that you're hoping to build. And, you know, some— sometimes there's slimmer margins on, on, on some jobs, especially I'm assuming if they're smaller, because sometimes there's not much wiggle room in the budget. Uh, and, but then there's going to be, you know, those other jobs that if you can count on them, you know, that you will definitely keep them on the top of the list for those larger jobs as well.

Yeah, and I think I would also say that just knowing those contractors that you work with too and understanding their businesses as well is important because, you know, if I have— if I send a company a work order that has a really high overhead but it's a project that's 2 days for 2 guys and they're looking at it from, well, I've got 5 guys I need to keep fed and, you know, keep their overhead costs. Then sometimes when you send them those projects, they're trying to find ways to make it fit for 5 guys or make it so that it's a perfect fit for their business as well. And we just have to understand too that every job's not going to be perfect for that sub as well. And that's where we can present a work order to a sub but not have hurt feelings if they turn it down or want to negotiate. But from a business owner standpoint too, we have to understand our budget as well and be willing to move on from a subcontractor if it's not the right fit for both of us too. Hmm.

Yeah, that makes, that makes a lot of sense.

Cool.

Well, you mentioned that, you know, you start with subs and I'm assuming that's because it's usually easier to get started with subcontractors. What, at what point do you recommend folks to switch to employees? And I guess why switch to employees? So I guess a two-part question there. Yeah.

So for us, the biggest thing with switching to employees comes that we get more brand recognition. We can get vans on the road with our, you know, logos and things of that nature. And so it just starts expanding our marketing footprint. We have franchisees that I have a couple of franchisees that have been with us 9 years now. That are still 100% subcontractor-based because they're just comfortable with it. And, you know, they haven't felt the need to have those employee painters or need to have that additional marketing presence from additional vans or trucks on the roads and things of that nature. But what we look at from, you know, why make a switch from sub to employee is once we start filling the calendar, you know, the calendar's consistently full and you could keep 1, 2, 3 crews consistently constantly busy, then why not bring one of those in-house or bring two of them in-house and start getting some of that branding recognition? The other thing that does happen with bringing them in-house is it's easier to get adoption of systems and processes when they're employee-based. Now, not saying that subcontractors— I, some of the best painters I've ever worked with have been subcontractors and they've treated our clients amazing and take a lot of pride in their work. But there's also the other hand of subcontracting. You're going to get some that maybe don't do those things as well. And so I, I think a lot of times subcontracting gets kind of a mixed review or sometimes a negative, um, context to it because they're not having subs follow some type of system or process and also not evaluating from a quality control standpoint, and it puts them in a tough situation. For me, the margins honestly are very similar between, an employee crew and subcontracting crew. It's just really what do you feel more confident with as your go-to-market strategy is kind of the way we evaluate it.

It makes sense. Um, I'm, I'm really curious, so you're, you're working with 76 locations throughout the, the US. What are the top, you know, the top 10 most successful franchisees that you've worked with, what are they doing? What are the, the, the big drivers from what, from what you can tell to their success? What are they doing that's really moving the needle and helping them, you know, grow profitably and, and just have a killer business? What do you think those things are? What's like the recipe to success for those folks?

Yeah, I, I love this question. I think there's a few things that really contribute to it. I think first off is continuing to educate yourself daily. Um, I, I've been formally in the paint industry 25 years now, and there's still things that I can learn daily. And, and no different for the franchise owners or any business owner for that matter. There's something we can learn new daily. And so do we continue to reinvest in learning and growth? And I find too that learning is like compounding interest. The more learning you do, the more compounding effect that you start seeing on your business as well. And so continuing to reinvest in yourself and your team, I think, is really important for those who are successful. That, that's one of the things that we've seen is those who continue to educate themselves and invest in their team from that standpoint do see more success. Then next to that would be continuing to market, whether it's slow, busy, summer, winter, continuing to market consistently throughout the year is also really important for the growth and evolution of the business as well. We see many painters or even a lot of other trades for that matter that they'll invest when it's slow, but they won't keep investing in marketing when they're busy as well. And that's how you can stay more consistently busy and also growing your book of business. Business is by continuing to invest in marketing. And then lastly, I find relationships within every market. Business is built on relationships, not transactions. And the more relationships you're willing to build in your marketplace, the larger your business is going to build. If you're looking at just transactions and, you know, as soon as your tail lights around the corner from that house and you're done painting it and that's that's the end of it, then you're probably always going to be chasing that next dollar versus really building a business as well.

Okay, so it sounds like 3 things. One, can continue to educate yourself and your team on a daily basis. There's always something to learn and learning compounds itself. And then the second one is continue to market even when you feel like you have enough work. Or when it, when the work is plentiful, you know, in the busy season, continue to keep the marketing machine going. And then 3, continue to build relationships, you know, don't always look for opportunities in your community to build those relationships. Because that's probably, you know, it might not be a short-term strategy, but most definitely is at least a long-term strategy. To be well known and connected in the community. Yeah.

And the thing I would add to that is it's more expensive to acquire a new client versus to keep the client you have in the first place. And so continue to nurture the relationships. If that— if it just feels like a transaction with the client that you work with, then that's all it's going to be. And we get this time and time again. We go through a 9-step sales and kind of a discovery phase as we're talking through with a client. And many times we'll ask them if they've worked with a professional painter in the past and they'll say they had. And the follow-up question is, was it a good experience? And, you know, tell us more about that. And many times it was a good experience. And then we'll ask them, why are they not working with them this time? And it's just like, I can't remember who they were. And so, you know, they lost that opportunity to continue be working with that client because they didn't nurture a relationship. It was nothing but a transaction. And so if we're looking at business as just simply transactions, then we're going to be continuing to chase that dollar versus if we continue to nurture those clients into more of a relationship basis versus a transaction, then you have the ability to really build that business long term.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Keep in touch with your current customers, the historical customers. Just so that they remember you next time they have to paint. That's a, like you said, super inexpensive way to, you know, to get repeat work. Because I mean, sending out a monthly newsletter via email is super cheap, even direct mail. I mean, if you're doing direct quarterly direct mail, that's like a buck, a buck and a half per customer. But if they're going to spend $5,000, $10,000 with you in a couple years, you know, spending $15 on them might be, you know, worth it.

Yeah, I would, I would totally agree. Like I said, it's a lot more costly to acquire a new client than it is to keep one. And, and so that's what I always urge anybody to, to do is continue to nurture that relationship, keep that relationship, and who knows where that relationship will take you, who they'll they refer you to? Not just additionally the work that you would have working for them, but who could they refer you to as well?

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Cool. So we talked about the top performers that you've seen, the different locations across the US. I like to go inverse as well sometimes. What the folks that fail, what are they, what are they doing or not doing that, you know, you just, when you see that happen, you're just like, I don't think this is going to work out. I know, you know, you see something over and over and you kind of get a sixth sense for these things. Oh, what do you, what are like the, the things that when you see a painting business owner do, you're like, I really don't think that this is going to work out with this franchisee?

Yeah, so I'm going to speak to part of this from a franchisee perspective and then part of this from my time with Sherwin-Williams and just working with subcontractors for so many years as well. I think the first one, it goes back to again, do we know our numbers? Are we actually making sure we're profitable on projects? And then do we have the cash flow that's backing it up? That's the other challenge. So we can train until we're blue in the face on how to sell a project profitably and how to make it make sense for everybody. But if they don't sell that work and actually don't get cash flow through the business, then you still have fixed overhead expenses that you're going to have month in and month out. And so there's that balance of I've got to have cash flow coming through the business monthly. And then am I watching and fine-tuning that business that's coming in to make sure we're profitable? That's one area that I find those who struggle the most is One, they're struggling with just cash flow, period. They're not getting enough jobs running through the business monthly to keep where they are offsetting overhead expenses and things needed to actually grow the business. And then second to it, are they making them, you know, the minor tweaks or things along the way to ensure profitability to, to continue to grow the business? And then kind of on the inverse of what I said on the those who are growing, it's those who don't continue to learn and those who don't continue to follow systems and processes. Our franchise owners that struggle, every time we start stripping it back and find that it's— they're missing some of the systems and processes or they're trying to skip steps. You know, we as humans always want to find the path of least resistance, and it's no different within franchising. Even though we have a playbook and all the systems and process businesses, we still have franchisees that want to try to shortchange just a process to make it simpler, to get from point A to Z faster, things of that nature. And it's when they skip steps in between that every time, that's where we're going to find there's a problem as well. And so staying dedicated to whatever your systems and processes— systems and processes for the business would be the, the first thing. And then continuing to learn and grow, you know, listen, listening to podcasts like this, but other podcasts as well, or networking with other contractors who are successful in your area and finding ways to make improvements, continuing to learn your industry, learn your craft. How do you become, you know, I always say a rising tide lifts all boats. We've heard that for forever. I want every contractor to be successful in our marketplace and charging rates that they they can be profitable on and also have good solid cash flow because it helps everybody. It helps everybody in the marketplace. And so continue to network, meet other contractors who are successful in your marketplace, and then make sure you're profitable. Those are the things that I see that are usually the shortcomings of most contractors that are struggling.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I noticed you mentioned cash flow. As the saying goes, cash is king. You know, if you don't have cash in your business, you're not going to be in business for very long because that's the one thing you need to continue to operate is you need cash. So what do you— what are, you know, obviously being profitable and bidding jobs is important to ensure you have cash because profits equals cash. Are there any other things that you, you try to train the franchisees on to make sure that they have proper cash flow?

Yeah, I mean, it goes back to marketing consistently, continually marketing so that the leads and jobs come in regularly helps ensure there's cash flow, but also continuing to build those relationships in your marketplace will also aid in the ability to keep cash churning throughout the business. And then for us, we've especially, you know, you mentioned kind of a unique market right now in 2025, having various services. I, you know, as much as I wish that we could say we just do interior painting or we just do exterior painting and you really niche down, we're finding offering many services that are really tied to painting has been important for us to stay consistently busy and growing as well because it has been a little bit of a unique year where certain markets may be be interior paintings down this year, and so we're focusing on garage floor coatings or decks and fences or exteriors, or maybe it's just drywall repairs or, you know, popcorn ceiling removals or whatever it might be. You know, finding other offshoots of just painting to make sure that you can stay consistently turning cash through the business has been an important thing. Um, at least for us.

Yeah, that makes sense. Um, so keeping marketing turned on and, uh, and offering different services, you know, to, as like, I'm assuming either upsells or, or just main offer. Do you guys usually do upsells to those other services or to like make the overall job more valuable, or are you also marketing on the front end for like those kind of offshoots as well?

So both, definitely marketing for the, the different various services as well, um, like garage floor coatings for one. That's one that will independently market and generate leads just for that niche. But we'll also use that when we're doing an interior exterior project, also asking have they been considering a garage floor, you know, or does your garage floor need updating and things of that nature, um, are an easy add-on to what we're you're already doing there for that client as well. And so yeah, there's both upsells or cross-selling of different services and also just marketing them independently. And I think that's important too. It goes again back to— I hate to harp on just systems and processes, but having a sales system that you follow that allows you to ask for additional items within a house or commercial building or whatever it might be. Um, cross-selling different services, I think, are also important to building that ticket to where you're, you know, helping add profitability or adding more cash to the business as well. Um, those come into play for sure.

That's awesome. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Cool. Well, Well, Jay, I really appreciate your time today. You've been super generous. And I think listeners have gotten a ton of value from some of the things that you've thrown out there in terms of like, what makes a great painting business from what you've seen working with dozens and dozens of other painting businesses across the US and, and then what doesn't work, which you need to avoid. Do you have any final thoughts or asks of the audience?

Really just continue to build your business, have fun with it. I think that's the one thing too. A lot of times business owners get so stressed out about building their business and just have fun with building your business. Gamify, have fun and start building those systems and processes that really build the business that they're looking to create for themselves and their families and whatnot. And then just ask, seek other mentorship in your marketplace. Every market in the country, there's going to be contractors that are willing to share best practices or willing to help out and things of that nature. And so seek other mentors in your marketplace and create other, you know, networking relationships that way that are good for you and maybe other clientele and whatnot as well.

Awesome. Awesome. I really appreciate your time today, Jay. And for the audience, with that, we will see you next week.