Servant Leadership And Systems That Scale Profits In A Painting Business

Welcome to the Profitable Painter Podcast, the show where painting contractors learn how to boost profits, cut taxes, and build a business that works for them. I'm your host, Daniel Honan, CPA, former painting business owner, and your guide to mastering the numbers that drive success. So let's dive in and make your business more profitable, one episode at a time. Super excited today to speak with Quy from Paramo Painting out of Texas. Super excited. How's it going, Cuy?

Pretty good, man. Very excited to be here with you. Thank you for the opportunity.

Absolutely. Glad to talk, man. I feel like I see you like so much at the different events. We were just in San Antonio. Well, I was just in San Antonio. You're always in that area, but— Yeah. And we were at the PCA Español event. So it's cool to jump on a podcast with you.

Thank you, man. Uh, yeah, my backyard was, was hosting all those nice events. Hope everybody get, get something good to apply in their company.

So, yes, sir. Yeah, it's definitely, I know a lot of folks feel like it's drinking out of a fire hose going to like a PCA event because there's so many, so much good information. It's almost hard to know where to start because there's so many things to improve, so many things to implement. and it's just kind of overload for, for a few days trying to figure out, okay, what do I start with?

Yeah, especially if you're going like not knowing what to expect. I mean, I mean, I think sometimes when you're used to this event, now you have a goal, you know, today I'm going after this and, and so forth.

Yes, sir. Well, for folks that don't know you, and I know you're pretty well known in the, in the industry because you're, you're always at the events and supporting the PCA. But for those that don't know you, could you let folks know, how did you get started in the painting industry and what have been some major milestones along the way?

Well, uh, my name is, uh, I'm the founder of Paramo Painting, uh, located here in San Antonio, Texas. And, uh, how we start the business, I think like, like everybody, you know, like you want to be a rocket science, you you aim for that since you're 5 years old? No. I mean, like everybody, we— you're here for a need, you know, we need to provide to our families, to ourselves. So, and then we decide to start doing it on our own. And I just realized that it's not easy. So that's why I started going to this kind of events. So to You know, like to, to find people like-minded, uh, dealing with the, uh, the same problems that I do. Probably they fix their problems already so I can learn from them or try to help in this case people, uh, uh, doing, uh, dealing with what I was dealing with. So milestones, it's, I want to say I have now, I have friendship with a lot of people. Uh, I have like, I can tell you good friendship. Good. I've been— now I have the opportunity to have others, which I didn't know it's something that I really like to do. And of course, I mean, have my company to be more— I don't know if we should use the word successful, but let's be— to have a company not to be a headache, you know, like learning how to do processes, learning how to, if you really have a profitable company or not, you know? So I think that's the main thing, you know, to know where you're stepping on.

Yeah, absolutely. And so how long have you been in the industry at this point?

The industry as a painter? I mean, like almost 20 years, but being on this side of the field, it's been almost like 7, 7 years.

Okay, so 20 years overall, 14 or 6— I'm sorry, yeah, like 13 or 14 as a painter and then 7 or so as a, as a business owner.

Yes, sir.

Okay, awesome. And, uh, I know one of the things that you had started, you felt like in the beginning first— and this is pretty much everybody, I think, that starts a business It was kind of chaotic in the beginning when you first start, you don't have processes, you don't have clarity on your numbers. And, and then over time, you, you sound like you linked up with like-minded people, started going to the PCA events and started like learning on what things you could implement, improve your processes. Um, at what point, what was like the, the thing that made you reach out for help? Because it sounded like for a few, a couple years there, you might have been struggling pretty, you know, significantly, which most people do, uh, starting out in, in as a painting business owner. What point did you actually start reaching out, getting help, and like making big reforms in your business?

Uh, When, what happened is, uh, uh, a certain point I start, uh, painting myself and then I start having, uh, too much time to spare. And, and I said, what can I do to be better for my guys? You know, like I've been very committed with my people. Like I, I think it's, if not the most important, one of the most important, uh, assets of the company, you know. Or people. And I started trying to learn how to be a better leader because honestly, as a technician, you don't think like you can help people, you know? You just think like people is there for screw you. Unfortunately, we think like that. And And I said, what can I do to get better? Right? Start looking into, uh, into, I always like to read books, but since work, uh, I just learned that even you can listen to a good book. And then I got hooked up with the podcast of, um, um, PCA, uh, PainNet on Spotify. And, uh, and I started listening to all these people, you know, I mean, I don't remember who really listened the most, but I used to like listen to stories that real people, the real people that talk, paint words. So then I started learning what is PCA about and then happened to be at San Antonio Residential Forum. So, and I went there, I met a lot of people. I don't think if you were there, But a lot of people that I've been bumping each other's heads on, on other events, I met them in San Antonio. Like, is it crazy? Yeah. Then I started going to Expo, I started meeting new people, and then we start this new wave about PCN Español, and I'm happy to help with that.

Nice. So I guess, you know, you, you mentioned you were— you had, you know, painters working for you and you wanted to be a better leader. What kind of spurred that? What was the thing that made you realize, man, I really need to step up my game as a leader?

The— oh, when you realize that you're not, you're not right, you know, like I always get to be the one who said the last word, never had an input into it until somebody hit me hard saying like, I'm not a good person, you know? And I'm like, I feel like I'm a good person. Like, I just realized that I'm not a good leader. So it was that we're, we as technicians, Daniel, we're like, until something happened to us, we kind of start doing things, right? Like put up with a fire. And then when I jump into this world, it's not just about pain, it's about, it's about being like, like the entire, entire body of being a business owner. And not just to be the business owner, it's being a leader, being a being a good person on the eyes of the society, like even the small town where we at right now, we like to be part of it, you know, like not just the leader of my house, I want to be the leader of more people. I want to serve. I'm looking for that. That's the word I was looking for. I like to serve people. So then that hit me hard when somebody told me that I'm an evil person. So I started doing about it. Yeah.

So you got some harsh words and you basically dedicated to serving, serving your team. And instead of just being focused on like putting out fires and trying to do things yourself, like try to serve your team, set them up for success and be more of a leader. Is that how you approach leadership is more of like a servant role?

Has to be, man. Has to be. Yeah, you cannot just come and tell somebody, well, if you're in the Army, I don't know if you serve, but you have to do what you've been told to do. You know, and probably I'm wrong saying it, but I'd rather have people happy working. It's the numbers don't lie on that matter. You know, when you have somebody comfortable coming to work instead of saying like, oh my goodness, I have to go to work, you know, like, because also that happened to me. I mean, one time, like I said, being a bad leader, I have a person working on my company, the main guy, I was afraid to fire him, but I was feeling uncomfortable going to the job site. My own company. So, so that's why another thing that sparked, like, what can I do to avoid all that, you know? So, and I have to say it, yeah, you have to serve to be a good leader, I think.

That makes sense. Did you say you were in the military?

No, no, no, no, no. Oh, I think that, I mean, you have to do something that they told you to. So Not in, not in, uh, not in a, in a painting company, you know what I'm saying?

Okay, gotcha. Gotcha.

Okay.

I was about to say it's like, because I was in the military. So I was like, oh, okay. Because that is kind of the approach in the military is like, when I served, that was kind of the mentality as leaders in the military that you kind of served your team or your, your platoon or your company, whatever you can, because they're the ones on the front line. They're doing the hard work. And as a leader, you have to make sure that they have, they have the logistics, right? They have the, the bullets and the, and the beans and the rice, and they have the food and the ammo, and they're Uh, also the training that they need, and it's your job as a leader to kind of make sure that they're set up with all those things that they need so that they're successful on the battlefield. And so I think what you said makes sense where as a leader, it's really about being a servant to your team to make sure they get all the things that they need to be successful. So like you said, training. Make sure that they have the right tools, make sure they have the right, the work order, right, the clear instructions on that work order so that they know what the expectations are, what they need to do, that they have a good handoff, you know, from, from sales to production management, all those things so that they can do their job and be successful at it. Is that something, would you agree?

Yeah, man, 100%.

Yeah. So what, what things changed in the way you behaved or how you did things in your company when you made that mindset change from being a just on paper, like in charge of the company to trying to be more of a servant leader?

Well, the, uh, here's the thing. Back in, back then, there's no, um, job costing. There's no, um, work orders. There's nothing. It's just, this is the house, this is what we're gonna do, and that's it. Get it done, right? Because you're a painter, you know what to do. So, uh, then I started getting deep into, okay, what is, uh, what is job costing? I started doing job costing. Okay, we're using too much material. You know, you're using— we're spending too much time on, on, um, which am I calling, on labor. Why on labor? Because, uh, the, the crew leader was getting there late and everybody was clocking in like 2 hours before they start actually working. And little details like that that you cannot address when you don't have the data. So then those things start changing. I feel more confident on what we're doing, if I'm charging right or if I'm charging— I made a mistake making an estimate of this project so-and-so. And at the end of the day, the numbers were telling me you're right, you're wrong, and this is where you're failing at. So there's no way around when you put numbers down. And of course, it gave me more time to, whatchamacallit, to assess what is hurting the company. Because eventually we grew up to 12 people, from 3 people to 12 people. And it's always, you get this phrase, I love it, like the growing pain. You know, when you don't have the system in place, you just going to have people running, running like crazy around, you know, jealousy, gossip. There's no, there's no actual bones on something. So what he changed is little by little. On any transition, any transition, even in your body, you lose weight, you get, you have to get rid of clothes that you won't, it won't fit on you anymore, right? I have to say bye to a lot of people that used to be my coworkers and now they're working for somebody else. But since they are good painters, I wasn't aware that they were a bad fit for our company, what we were achieving. Like smoking on somebody's home. Now we start getting into what is the core values, how we're going to look. In front of people, we're gonna, we're gonna be wearing a uniform, or at least a t-shirt, they're going to represent the company. So that changed in a good way. Okay, in a good way. I'm not saying that that happened and everything is, is now on wheels, right? You know, even you and your company, you bump into several issues once in a while, right? And especially you deal with a lot of painters, and on the being the CPA of them, you know, it's hard to keep the— well, it's not hard, I mean, just to keep the finances on track, it's something, right? So that's what we have to do to be able to make a decision. So that's what it changed in a good way. So, and we keep improving because, uh, we're not done yet.

Yeah, that's all you can do. I mean, there's— I think Warren Buffett said that business is problems. Like, if you're in business, you gotta expect problems. Problem— that's, that's the whole thing. So if you're— if you have a business right now and you are surprised when problems arise, you're You probably should do something else because it's, you should just expect problems to happen. If there were no problems, then people wouldn't hire you because that's the whole reason why they're hiring you because they have a problem. So you gotta, you gotta be ready and expecting problems every day. So yeah, I totally get it. And yeah, for sure. We, we're always facing different problems and solving them is our job. And that's, that's all the only thing you can do is be open to problems. And I think it was actually Jeff Bezos. And one of his biographies, there's a, one of the people that he worked with said that whenever Jeff Bezos would find a problem, when someone would bring him a problem, he actually got excited. He's like excited about that problem because he felt it was like an opportunity to improve the business and, you know, make it more valuable or make it more profitable. Because if there was an issue, uh, like if there was a process issue or whatever, if they fixed it, theoretically it could make it more efficient and then make Amazon more profitable. So, so instead of, you know, because I think the, the natural tendency, especially for myself, when, when a problem is coming your way, you're like, oh geez, you know, what, what do we got now? You know, there's some some issue and you're like, you're kind of get that, that feeling in your gut like, all right, what's— there's some sort of issue going on. Okay. But he actually had the complete 180 feeling. He actually got excited. Okay, cool. We have a problem. We can figure this out. Once we solve it, then it's going to make the business more valuable or more profitable or something. So I think, you know, it's kind of a mindset. Shift. And it, and it's also true, like, if you can— the more problems you solve in your business, especially related to processes and people, it's going to make the business better. And a better business for the owner is, is going to be— it's going to be good. It's going to be more profitable, more efficient. And so it's, it's all good when you're solving those problems.

Yeah, for sure, man. 100% agree.

Yeah. So what have been some big— the biggest change? You said you, you grew from basically having 3 people on the team to 12 people on the team. What were some of the biggest growing pains or challenges from— to go from 3 to 12?

Yeah, uh, delegation. And I mean, uh, like I said, still with the, uh, technician mindset, delegation, and also being the, the owner or the founder of this, uh small business, it's, it's, uh, which am I calling it? It's painful to, to, it's not painful, it's, it's, uh, it's hard to give away your baby, right? Somebody else take care of your baby, especially a, uh, uh, for example, a customer that I've been, I've been, uh, having customers for since I started my business, they calling me back. And they create this vicious attachment to me. Like if I'm not there, they're going to look for somebody else, you know? And then I have this on the back of my head. So I need to delegate and it is a little bit of a headache when you have somebody else going to do an estimate if this person's going to do it right or not. What else? The financials, you know, that's the first thing I want to get rid of it. That's why we have somebody help us with that. So I think delegation, it's something that I want to say probably because I know you know a lot of people in the industry that they're never being painters. And it's easy for them just to tell somebody what to do, right? You're going to do sales, you're going to do admin, you're going to do project managing, you want to be in charge of the production. And it's less painful to delegate for them. And I don't know if you have a number on the statistics, but probably those are the people who is doing better quicker. Than a technician with a brush in the hand, you know. So that's one of the things that it's been harsh. It's not a problem now, you know, because I believe, I'm a true believer of when you hire somebody after you do the proper homework, when you ask the right questions, where you've been working at, are you being Managing projects, so and so. And this is in a project manager point. And then you start with the trust over here. I mean, I give people trust right away high because instead of micromanaging with the trust on the very low end, because at the end of the day, trust is hard to keep. You know, and if I want to trust somebody, I want to close my eyes and, and this is your responsibilities. Here's the roadmap. Because also, I cannot just tell them, hey, you're going to do this and you figure it out, right? Because I used to do that, Daniel, a lot. You know, with my first project manager, it was like, hey, go to do this, you know? And okay, what colors go where? Like, ask the client, you know? It was like that bad. So now we're, we, we were pretty good at it. But it was, was on me, on me, the, the, which one, the trust, the delegation. Yeah.

Yeah, I feel like delegation is almost like a muscle you have to train. It's, you know, especially if you are like you said, you're, you, you are, you know how to paint, you're good at it. And you have, you know, it's in me, you know, I'm a CPA, obviously I work in a CPA firm, so I can do all the things. So the tendency is to, well, I can just do this really quick to take care of it instead of working my team, delegating it to my team. Having them do it, having them have the reps on it, get more confident with it and be able to take it over for the future. So it's almost like a, um, kind of a crutch almost for, for, for, you know, you as the craftsman to jump in or, you know, you have the skill jump in and it's kind of a short-term fix. Like you're in the short term, it might be better, like, because you got it done right then and there really quick. But in the, the medium term, the long term, it's not good because you're, you're basically robbing your team of the opportunity to get the experience and the training to be able to do it the next time. And, and from that point forward, so, uh, I don't have the exact metrics statistics on what you're saying in terms of like, do folks that don't have they don't know how to paint, do they grow faster? But I would agree that, that they do not have that temptation to want to jump in when they, you know, they don't have the skills. So they are pretty much reliant on their team to execute. And so it just kind of, it allows you to focus on growing the business and the systems. And not have to worry about doing the painting because you don't, you don't know how to paint. So it is an additional challenge. I think you're right for folks that are, that know the craft, that are really good at it to kind of, like you said, give your baby away, let someone else take, take control and execute. That is definitely a challenge that I know as well. And I know a lot of people, uh, struggle with that too. Do you have any tips for someone that's trying to, you know, get off the brush or, you know, get, get their hands? Yeah.

Yes. I've been, I've been telling a lot of people lately, like you go to this events and everybody tell you, write down what are you looking for? What is your, your, your, what is your goal? Your, your, your dream in life? Where do you want to be at? You know? And start writing down things. Because if, uh, I, I listened to that like for 5 years, I never done it until I start doing it and things start going different. Why? I don't know. I don't know. It's a magical thing. I don't know. It's like, you know, I can give you my, my, um, my loss and profit out of my mouth, then you're gonna be like, dude, I need to see it in paper, you know. So First, figure out what you want, because there's a lot of people who are doing great just being a solo painter or with a helper. And you talk to them and they sound so happy that you— I mean, that's the main thing, looking for happiness or looking for stability, looking for something that you really want to enjoy, you know? And they recognize that they're now pretty good managing people. That's it. And I just noticed, to me, if I don't have people working with me, I can do okay, but I'm a people person, you know. You heard about those personality assessments and all that? I'm an I, so I tend to be— I want to be surrounded by people, you know. And I like to help people. I like to bless people, and I like to do the right thing for people. So I can tell you, if you're okay being by yourself, good, keep doing it. Just look for happiness. If you really want to grow your company, you need to start educating yourself because you cannot just start doing things out of will, you know. So you need to educate yourself. You need to know how to manage people, how to manage your finances, how to manage your productions, how to manage your clients. How are you going to bring more clients? How are you going to take care of your existing clients, you know? So that's not just like, I want to be a painter, I'm gonna I wanna be rich. I wanna— I just want to not clock in, clock out. I wanna just have freedom because those are things that nobody tell you, you know, the problem. So if you're a problem solver, you're more than welcome to start growing your company. But yes, if you don't learn how to delegate and you start like calming down your feelings. Uh, you know, Nick Slavik managed that a lot, the, um, feelings plus data, right? So you, you guys have to, um, have to learn how to, how to educate yourself. Because even I, I have a lot of friends that never grab a book in their lives, and now we talk about books. Right? Why? Because they have to. They have to have the perspective of different people who's been doing this for, for over time. So, yeah, that's it.

I think there's that saying, leaders are readers. So that, I think that's a helpful, a helpful reminder that if you want to lead, you got to read. And there's a, there's a lot of great books out there that business management, but also just like biographies or memoirs, autobiographies that are super helpful in just understanding, you know, what, what, uh, what you should do in different situations. And, um, I know for me, biographies and autobiographies are really helpful because it's especially the more success— the, the successful business entrepreneurs, but even not quite, uh, entrepreneurs like For example, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger, he was not quite an— he kind of was an entrepreneur in some ways, like he did start a construction company when he was younger and stuff. But just his, his, his mentality on how he handles things, really, and how big goals he set for himself. He wasn't afraid of setting big goals. But there's different things you can learn from people and just their mindset and way they thought about things that are very successful. And, uh, you know, there's also that thing where it's you're the average of the, the, the 5 people you spend the most time with. And so I think spending time with like a really successful person, not necessarily in person, but if you're, you're reading their autobiography or their biography, you're essentially kind of getting in their head. You're spending time with, time with them. And if you're always doing that, if you're always reading autobiographies, biographies of the most successful people, you're kind of— some of that mindset ideas are going to rub off on you. You'll get good, good ways of thinking about things. I know at least I have with, with hiring, managing people, leading people. Uh, it's like you said, you know, if, if you want to grow your business beyond yourself, which, if you don't, that's fine. Like you said, it's all up to you and what you want in your business. But I think if you, if you do want to grow your business beyond yourself, you do have to definitely learn and be ready to continue to learn and be a student of leadership. And, uh, not that you'll ever be a perfect leader or know-it-all in terms of leadership, but at least, at least be a student of it so you can continue to improve upon where you are now. It is. Um, cool. Well, I really appreciate your time today. You know, I'd like to give you an opportunity to, you know, give any last thoughts to painting business owners that are, are maybe, uh, trying to become better leaders or get better at delegating. Or grow their business to the next level, do you have any final thoughts on how they should do that or what resources are available that maybe folks aren't aware of or anything that you'd like to ask the audience?

Yeah, you just said it. You got to start. If you cannot hang out with these people, people that you think are going to be beneficial for your life, Start, you know, following them, start listening to them. Books, I always, if you're not a book reader, that's fine. I mean, we as a, whenever we go to do an estimate, we're driving all the time, get an audiobook, you know, start listening to it. Something that you feel gonna, even if it's a, like you just said it, Daniel, like I like biographies. And if somebody wants to read something else, they're going to feel into it. It's that you're already exercising your muscle and the muscle is going to start getting into more stuff, you know, like then how to manage people, you know, what is the— what can I do about how to manage my finances, how to delegate? There's a lot of good books out there and And like the one I always, I always, I want to listen to it 2, 3 times, probably a month. It's the Donald Miller Building a Story Brand. I feel like every time I listen to it, it's, I catch something new. So it really, it really tells you how to picture your company. What is it? What you want, right? Because we're on this, which am I calling? We're in the service industry, right? Where Jason Phillips said a lot that we're in the people business, but on both sides, people working for us, people who we are serving, right? And how do you want that people to look at you, to look at your company? What is it what you want? What is it what you really are looking for? I think sometimes we get lost into what is it what we want, right? The basic answers you're going to get into a new entrepreneur is, I want freedom, I want money, I want— you name it, everything is, it's, it's superficial. Until you start finding things like, you want freedom to what, to enjoy with your family, or to what, to just sleep and get up late? Because at the end of the day, once you find your really, your really goal in life or whatever you want to do, you're going to get deeper and deeper. And that's not bad. And let me tell you, whoever is going through this transition, there's a lot of people that are going to fall out of your train, because, uh, your mindset is going to start changing, and people gonna think that you're not the same you used to, and something is changing you, and you're evil person. So, so be prepared for that, especially family. It could be, could be painful. So start creating that, that skin at the end of the day, if that's what you want. If not, I'll see you around, and then we're good. We're colleagues. No, nothing happened. So no pasa nada.

Yeah, awesome. I appreciate those thoughts and definitely agree. I, I, uh, really appreciate you sharing your journey and your thoughts on delegation and leadership. Super important conversation, I think, that needs to be continued to be had with painting business owners So really appreciate you jumping on the podcast, sharing your thoughts on the, on those topics. And for the audience, with that, we will see you next week.