#277 How Generative AI is Changing Leadership with Christie Smith, Founder of the Humanity Institute and Kelly Monahan, Managing Director, Upwork Research Institute

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Work is going to fundamentally look different. I think there's too many leaders with the other head in the sand or there just a lot of confusion of not knowing where to get started. But the reality is technology continues to disrupt the way we think about work. The tasks that we do, jobs that we do today, look very different than the jobs we do 20 years ago, and I think that timeline is getting quicker and quicker in terms of that transformation. Foreign.

Welcome to Data Framed. This is Richie. We talk a lot on this show about how data and technology careers are changing. These careers have always been susceptible to skills becoming obsolete, but there have been two big changes in the last few years that are dramatically altering the future of data work. Firstly, there was the rise of remote and distributed work during the pandemic and now we have generative AI assisting or replacing humans for many tasks. Today I want to find out about the future of work and workplace culture. In particular, I want to know how managers need to change their approach to leading in a world where foundational elements of business are being disrupted. Our two guests are the authors of Essential, which forms a guide for leaders in a disruptive time. The book advocates for human centered leadership, which is particularly interesting given how many people are advocating advocating for more AI everywhere. Kristy Smith is the founder of the Humanity Studio, a workplace advisory consultancy. She's got over 35 years of experience advising C suite of Fortune 500 companies in leadership talent and workforce management and executive team performance. Previously, Christy was a Senior Managing Director at Accenture, where she focused on future of work thought leadership and a VP at Apple, also a principal at Deloitte. Joining Christie is Kelly Monaghan, the creator and Managing Director of the Upwork Research Institute. Her department's research focuses on the effect of emerging technologies and distributed workforces on the future of work. Previously, Kelly was a Director for the Future of Work at Meta, and she's also a Principal Director at Accenture Research and and a lead researcher at Deloitte. So let's try and get some answers to how you keep your workplace human centered in a world filled with AI. Hi there, Christy. Hi there, Kelly. Welcome to the show.

It's great to be with you. Thank you, Richie.

Hey, Richie.

Wonderful. So, just to begin with, I know one of the big themes in your book is that leadership changes only tend to happen when there's some big disaster. Can you talk me through some leadership catastrophes that have inspired some change? Maybe, Kelly, do you want to kick off?

So I think sometimes we're leadership catastrophes, but I think there's take a big step back. I think there's other times that events cause leadership to change the way that we think about work. I think going all the way back to World War II, we saw that women had to come back into the workforce because of that dynamic and that catastrophe. And that forever changed the makeup of the workforce. I'm at upwork. We studied the freelancer market. The financial crisis in 2008 also changed leadership's mind around full time jobs versus freelancer freelancing and contract. And we saw a really mainstream gig work and freelance work happen because of again, that catastrophe in the financial crisis. So I think those are those things. But then I think there's also the moral catastrophes that are happening all around us, even in our present day. But you know, as we think through and we talk about this in the book, the Papa John's situation in Uber where the CEOs and leadership made decisions that fell at the expense of humanity, which we talk about in the book. And because of that, that forever changed the way that those cultures behave. And again, I think what we're trying to pick out people are flawed. We're going to make mistakes. But what you do in those moments and what we talk about is taking advantage of those moments to actually elevate humanity and learn from them. And I think, I don't know, Kristi, if you feel the same way. I think we have plenty to learn from these days.

Yeah, I agree 100%. I think too that we are in my mind's eye at a really unique point in the sociopolitical and economic conditions around the world, which is making leadership harder than it's ever been. We used to see distinct lines in business. I can remember this early on in my career that you go to work and you check your humanity at the door and all you do is do the job that you were hired to do when you were getting paid to do. We have evolved and I think the pandemic did accelerate this to a place where we no longer have that hard division between what is going on in our personal lives or in our communities with what is going on at work. And because of that, and because most people are looking to the private sector for some direction, for some help, we look at organizations today almost like embassies, where people come in and can feel safe and can feel as though they're getting maslow hierarchies of needs met. And therefore, I think leadership is harder than it's ever been.

Plenty of challenges there. So that's kind of interesting that you distinguished the sort of external economic challenges. Kelly, you mentioned things like the financial crisis pandemic, and then you've got internal crises, and then, yeah, there's just a general change in culture about what does it mean to be at work. Certainly often difficult to delineate work life from home life. I think for a lot of people. I know in your book you advocate for this idea of human centered workplace places. Can you tell me what that means? Yeah. Christy, do you want to go first this time?

Yeah. I think that what we're really focused on in terms of human centered work is simply putting humans back at the center. I think in my career, what I have looked for to build in organization is how do we solve for the humanity in our organizations and thus solve for the communities in which that humanity lives. Part of why we wrote this book, Richie, is because we both have a passion for solving for humanity in the workplace, because if we solve for humanity in the workplace, we solve for the communities in which those workplaces reside. And part of the exploration and the research in this book was to really look at what do humans require at work, because those requirements have changed over decades. And what we found is that humans require four things, purpose in the work that they do. And frankly, that organization's insides match their outsides. So it's nice to have little purpose statements and, you know, value statements up on the wall. But do you really live that? And in conjunction with that, you know, employees want to feel as though their work is tied to that purpose. The second is agency. Having the decision and the ability and the autonomy to do your work when, where, and how you want to do it, and that you can have that trust from your leader to make decisions to do your work, but also autonomy and agency in defining yourself through your own words, not by some structures that many organizations have. The third area is well being. I think this has taken on a whole different meaning since the pandemic. And really looking at individuals and employees through the lens of not just their financial well being or healthcare benefits, but through well being more broadly. And then the final one is connection is how do we build connection? How do we reimagine the workplace place so that you can build connection in remote settings, hybrid settings and at the office?

I like that, the sort of a step by step or at least a set of principles for like what makes a great workplace. And it seems like these are quite close to like a lot of the things that most people care about in life in general. You know, like is your physical, mental health, financial health. Are these things all good? Do you have connection to other people? So I think we definitely need to dig into those four things in a bit more depth later. But, but before we get to that, if you've got this idea of human centered workplaces, one of the big tech stories in the last few years has been like the rise of AI. So how does the idea of a human centered workplace sort of align with the idea of pushing AI into everything?

Well, listen, I think that like anything and Kelly, I'm dying to get your opinion on this. You know, we have looked at technology and the rapid evolution of technology in the last 10 years, 15 years at Magic bullets. Oh, these are going to help just change our lives. This is going to be all about productivity. This is going to be all about making work easier. And I think the first thing we need to do, Richie, is just put technology in its right place. We believe AI is really important. It's not going away, it's incredibly valuable within the workplace. But it also requires human intelligence to have meaning and to give meaning to it. And we think about AI as something that can certainly advance how we do work. But right now it's just simply a side out of a desk thing that employees need to learn.

Yeah, you know, I, I, I agree with you, Christy, the way you just said that we have to put AI in its right place. I do think it's going to be creating disruption though, in the new year, especially as it moves from generative AI to much more agentic AI and it's able to actually complete tasks. And so, you know, as I think about how do we keep humans at the center of this, I think it's absolutely critical. And it goes to what you just said. We have to start scaling the workforce. Work is going to fundamentally look different. I think there's too many leaders with the other head in the sand or there just a lot of confusion of not knowing where to get started. But the reality is technology continues to disrupt the way we think about work, the tasks that we do, jobs that we do today look very different than the jobs we do 20 years ago. And I think that timeline is getting quicker and quicker in terms of that transformation. And the reality is, whether we want to admit it or not, as people, we have to continue to adapt and evolve alongside of this. And I do think that's the leader's response to the ability to help inform and create the culture and the time, the capacity to allow people to develop alongside of this. And the last thing I'll say here is, you know, from a leadership perspective, this cannot just be an efficiency play. This has to be a learning, a transformation, innovative play here. If not, we will just kind of continue to repeat history where this will have a substitution effect. We'll continue to have inequality, and it will be disruptive in a way that does not benefit the majority of people. This technology can truly be different because of the way it democratizes knowledge and access. You don't need a coding degree, you don't need to understand coding in order to access this. And so I am somewhat optimistic if leaders can get this moment right. I actually think this is going to be a technology that can benefit many of us.

That's interesting then. So I think that is like the big fear of a lot of people from AI is it's just going to take that job away, they're going to be unemployed, and then that's terrible. So it sounds like there's a bad path where AI is just used for just cost savings and people get laid off. And then you've got the good version where people get trained in AI skills and they can may use the technology, and then that's a sort of happier scenario where people are more productive.

You know, I think that there is increased responsibility of managers and leaders in making sure that employees have what they need with these new technological capabilities. I think that there are several things. One is that they've got to improve education and invest in skill development. And not just invest from a monetary and resource standpoint, but invest in terms of giving employees time to learn these capabilities. It can't be a side of the desk, as I said earlier. The second is we need governance models for AI and how and where and in what capacity do we use it, and how do we use the human skills of discernment and contextual ability to understand how the output of AI will work or not work in a certain situation. The third is focus on people and what matters to them in completing the tasks of their work and how Is technology used to support that and how is it further used to connect people's work to the purpose of the organization, to building cultures, as Kelly said, and keeping learning at the forefront so that employees really can develop alongside the technology?

Yeah, that's interesting. I think, like, you just nailed a lot of the problems in learning and development there. It's just like making sure that people have time to actually learn the skills and they are going to be relevant to their jobs. I know that one of the things you say in your book is that skills tend to become commoditized over time. Talk me through what that means and what the implications of that are. Kelly, do you want to take this one?

Yeah, sure. So, you know, we've seen this multiple times before across different technologies that come into play. Technology tends to take over tasks that humans have traditionally can do, and as a result of that, that actually decreases the value of what people are willing to pay for that particular skill or that particular task. And so, you know, as we think about when Christy and I wrote this book, what is the next wave of skills that's going to be commoditized because of the next wave of AI? AI has been around since the 1950s, but the new models that we have, and again, the way that it's being able to do unsupervised decision making and learning is really a new realm for us. And that is going to go after jobs and tasks that we haven't necessarily seen before from technology. And that oftentimes is the more white collar professions in knowledge and service work that typically has been somewhat protected and actually been elevated from previous technology advances. And I think that's a bit what we're, you know, at Canary in the coal mine right now of signaling is this revolution that we have not given enough attention to maybe because of the way that we've perceived blue collar work or other industries. It's coming for college educated, STEM educated individuals. And I think it's going to surprise people the level of disruption that's going to take place. And so that's just what we mean by a skill becoming commoditized is technology is able to compete with humans for that same skill and therefore decrease the value in which people are willing to pay for it.

Yeah, that's interesting. I suppose. Think back to like the middle of the 20th century, there's all this industrialization, all these sort of production line things. So that was going for blue collar jobs, and now it's white collar jobs being taken over by or AI is competing with white collar jobs now. And I suppose if you work in technology, you get used to your skills going out of date pretty quickly. So, yeah, I've had a few cases of that myself where it's like, yeah, I spent years learning this and now no one uses it anymore. So do you think that's going to happen to a broader range of jobs now? The idea that these skills go out of date quicker?

I don't know.

Who wants to take this? Christie? Maybe.

Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think that there's no segment of industries or the market that isn't going to be impacted by technology and the need for skills. I mean, if you look at some of the research that we did in the book, over 87% of organizations face current or impending skill gaps. And the cost to that and the implications of that is right now costing the global economy $8.8 trillion a year. That's Microsoft, Amazon and Apple combined in revenues. We also saw that in 2014, the Manpower Group did a study that found that only 36% of global employees were having a tough time to find the right skills in their organizations. In 2024, that's increased to 75%. So three out of every four global companies is struggling and having a hard time finding the right skills for their companies. And the half life of skills is just accelerating the issue of finding the right skills. So I don't think there's any segment of the that isn't going to face this. We certainly saw that in some of the examples that we give. I mean, look at the writers strike in Hollywood last year. You know, that's a great example of where an industry that we didn't necessarily think would be challenged by technology because of its creativity was absolutely challenged. So, yeah, I think we're going to continue to see this in every aspect of our lives.

Okay. So we're in a new world where skills go out of date faster. Almost every company is struggling to fill these skill gaps because they don't have the right skills in health. But I guess on the other side, certainly in a lot of economies around the world, job seekers like, well, I applied for 100 jobs. No one's hiring me. What do I do? So how do you, I guess, cross this skill gap and make sure that job seekers and employers can match effectively?

So I think what we're seeing, Richie, right now, because I hear this all the time of people, we talk about there's a skills gap. Organizations say there's not enough talent. But you ask the average worker today, they can't seem to find A job or job hop if they want to. I think what we're seeing, and we talk about this in the book, is an imbalanced labor market where the supply and demand are out of equilibrium. So you know, what we see when you look at the jobs report that comes out every month, where we're seeing the growth occur is in what Christy and I begin to unpack as gray collar work, which is the combination of digital and physical roles in healthcare, in manufacturing, in construction. And the reality is there's a lot of people who are looking for just pure digital knowledge based work today. And what we're actually seeing is that contract a bit because of AI, but also just because if we're going to go back to the pandemic, it dramatically changed customer habits and buying habits during that time. And a lot of technology companies in particular became somewhat bloated during this time to meet that demand. That demand has since equalized. As a result of that, those industries are contracting a bit. And so the question is going to become for leaders is how do they solve for this is how do we actually get more people into these gray collar professions that have a strong physical component or industry component, whether that's health care, even retail, construction, but also the digital side, you know, and being able to work alongside, whether that's AI, Internet of Things, 5G technologies. And so I think that's to me is where the pent up frustration is happening, is that's where the demand is. And we don't quite have a workforce that's really ready to bridge that. That means blue collar workers moving into more digital type roles and white collar workers, you know, being able to really service and understand the gray collar world that they work within. Christy, I don't know if you'd add anything to that.

No, I mean, I think you're 100% right for listeners. Just think how rapidly this is changing when you go to get your car. I mean, it's amazing to me how quickly I'm walking into retail stores and all I'm having to do is drop my clothes into a bin and they read every item that's in there. And then I use the electronic card to check out and what's happening to all the employees there. I was in the airport the other day, and this is remarkable to me at the pace of change, is that they now have electronic wheelchairs. So humans who can't walk for some reason can't rely on humans to push a wheelchair. And we now have those electronically. So I think that the workforce that's behind the scenes and has to now service all of these different utilities is growing rapidly. And so yeah, I'm just in complete agreement with you, Kelly. And I would say this is not all about what's happening in the corporate walls. It's happening everywhere.

Okay, that's fascinating. I have to say, self driving wheelchairs is something I've never considered before. Now you've mentioned it, it just sound like a genius idea. Okay. All right. So it seems like you're both in agreement that having some kind of digital skills plus some kind of physical component that seems to be like a big growth area of the future. So do you have any more advice on like I guess both leaders, how do you incorporate this into your own business? Take advantage and for individuals, how do you even get into great color work? I'm not sure what the path is there.

I think it's a great point and I think a lot of this is just dealing with the industry structural changes that we're going to continue to take place. Some of this I think is going to become, not necessarily by choice, but somewhat forced, to be honest with you, as the labor markets shake out. But I think the reality is, you know, if you're a leader today, the one thing that we're seeing within the data is if you're, you gotta be looking for specialized skills. I think for a long time we relied on generalists within businesses and especially if you think about business administration, that is the type of work that's going to be shrinking in the future because that is the exact work that's very suitable for the technology that we're seeing take place. And so as a result of that, what we're seeing continue to grow in demand and become important is specialized. And so whether that's specialized in particular fields, in a particular discipline, in a particular expertise, that to me is where I think the future is going. We're seeing that on our upward platform. The freelancers who are earning the most are most in demand are getting actually more and more specialized within their realm. So that's, you know, would be my advice as we start thinking through, well, how do we move into some of this gray collar work, Figure out what's the specialty and what's your specialized skill set? What can AI in particular automation, robotics actually do? And then where's that gap? And at the end of the day, I think the reason why it's a little hard to answer right now too is I think there's going to be net new work that we're still being created right now that we are in the process of transforming within our organizations. That's the work that we need workers to go after is what's new, how do we create new innovation and value? I think we've focused for so long on efficiency. At a fault of this is not just doing more, faster, better, cheaper, this workforce revolution. I think this is actually doing something different with our time and our energy. And I think that is still a big question mark. And I think that's where we're optimistic that hopefully leaders, and that's part of what we're hoping to do in Essential is inspire and ask the what if questions and ask leaders to imagine a different type of work than what we can imagine today.

Yeah, I think that just following that and you started to talk about it on the tail end there, is that because of this shift that Kelly just articulated, we really demand a different kind of leader. Most leaders that have risen into their positions have been technical experts. Well, their skills are probably outdated. And what we need in leadership, and certainly what we talk about at length in the book, is that we need human powered leaders. We need leaders who know how to pick the best athletes, the best skills. How do you put that together? I mean, you could use the metaphor of great coaches with championship teams like the Chicago Bulls or an orchestra conductor. What we need in leaders is how do you identify and build that team and help them be the best that they can be in their jobs. It's no longer the requirement for the leader to have Grown up with 20 years experience in a field because that field has changed, gone away. Whatever it is, you have to be what we call an emotionally mature leader in order to lead teams fundamentally differently and that are changing so rapidly.

That's interesting that the nature of leadership's changed. You can't expect to be an expert in everything your team does. And actually, it's more about empowering your team to make sure that each individual is successful. Actually. Kelly, do you have any more advice on what makes a strong leader that's going to help your whole team perform?

Yeah, Kristen hit the nail on the head. And I think one of the things that we talk about that I just think is getting harder to do in our organizations today because of the lack of space and time. And one of the behaviors we talk about in Essential is cultivating curiosity, you know, relentless sense of curiosity around your people, in the world around you. And I think that's becoming a lost art in leadership. I think, as Kristy mentioned so often, leaders are meant to be the experts. They're meant to have the answers. And that's not the world we're operating in anymore. And actually I think most people want to be in dialogue and want to help leaders and organizations guide into the future. So to me, what I think good leadership looks like today is really being curious about the world that's changing. I mean, Christy and I would admit too, we have more questions and answers as we think about projecting into the future. But the reality is if we can stay curious and if leadership can stay curious, I think that's going to surface both from not just the technology but also the workforce again, solutions that we can't even imagine today. And that's only going to come from a sense of curiosity.

I would add to that if I might. Richie. I think that there needs to be a fundamental mindset shift. Leaders are no longer the experts in their field. They just aren't. They can't be. They can't develop the skills fast enough to be. So at some point they have to have this mindset shift that it's not about me, it's actually about the team. This notion of suspending self interest for the growth, the development and giving the team what they need to succeed and reach the objectives and goals of the company. And that's a huge ask for a lot of leaders who are in positions of power because listen, they're responding to these changes in three ways that we found. One is oh, what got me here is what I'm going to continue to double down on over and over again. So I'm not changing. I'm going to wait it out because I'm going to retire within five years. So I'm just going to coast and they're not going to do anything to me. Or three, that I'm going to really invest and change the way I lead. That's a very small percentage of leaders vis a vis number one and number two that I articulated. So we really have to begin to. And this is what we kind of. Kelly and I spent a lot of time formulating this framework of the emotionally mature leader to start with, this suspension of self interest because you can't know it all. You can't be at all. You are not. Not at all.

So that does sound like quite a big ask because these are things like emotional maturity. Like I'm sure everyone can pick some boss where you think. I'm not sure. That really reconciles with the image in my head. So yeah, that's interesting. You've got the maturity aspect, you've got the team player aspect, you've got the I guess a growth mindset aspect if you've got to be continually changing stuff. So there's a lot there. Is there still room for sort of requirements on sort of technical skills or other soft skills there? Oh, curiosity was the other one you mentioned as well. But yeah, is being a good leader, is it purely about these soft skills or do you need other technical capabilities too?

You know, I think for so often these conversations have been siloed and separate, which is part of the problem, I think, of where we are today is you think a lot of soft skill development and it's almost separate from the business. But what Christy and I are very clear on the book in Essential is that essential leaders are really good at creating cultures of excellence and driving P and L statements. This is not pursuing profits at the expense of people anymore. It's pursuing profits while elevating people. And that to me takes both hard and soft skills to get that combination right. It's both science and art within many organizations. And if we look for the past 30 years, I just think we've over rotated probably too much on the hard science side and really driving shareholder wealth maximization at the expense of people. I think what the future is demanding of us, what customers are asking for, for what the workers are asking for us, is much more balanced and much more optimizing. Where we're optimizing profits, optimizing our resources. So we're not at the expense of the planet either. And that to me is really what the essential leader is excelling at, is being able to do both. So I hope that's really clear. This is Essential leaders all about driving business outcomes at the end of the day and elevating people while doing so.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So you don't want some sort of hippie to be worked place where everyone's happy, but you're not actually making any money because that's not gonna last very long.

No.

Okay.

All right, Super. Okay. So right back at the start, Kristy mentioned this idea of like different pillars of workplace wellbeing. So I think it was things like autonomy and purpose and things like that. So yeah, just wanna take us through those four things again and then we'll go into them in a bit more depth.

Yeah. So what I talked about and what Kelly and I found in our research is, you know, given the changing climate over the last several years in terms of sociopolitical, economic change, wars in Europe and in Middle east, and this constant barrage of issues really facing companies and individuals within companies, we looked very Much as to, well, how has this changed employee perception and their requirements for leaders at work? And so what we found was there are four primary areas in which employees have requirements of leaders in their organizations. One is purpose. So does my organization live up to its purpose and value statements? Do the insides match the outsides? Employees want to feel that they're part of something greater that is making a contribution to the world. Not just economic, but they also have joined the company because in some way they're capitalists, as we were just talking about. But those things aren't mutually exclusive. So purpose is huge for employees choosing where they work and if they stay at an organization. The second is agency. So having more autonomy in either decision making or when and how they work or where they work, having more agency in how they define themselves. And the third area is well being. So looking at employees in a holistic manner, not just providing the basic benefits and compensation, but many more resources for employees because they're at work the majority of the time during the week. And the last area that we articulate and look at in the book is really around connection. How are we creating, creating connection in both a hybrid setting, a totally remote setting and on site setting. And that's becoming more and more important to employees.

Lots there of going beyond just like, well, I'm showing up to work today and that's it. At the end of the day I get paid and I go home and don't think about it. This idea of going beyond and finding benefits for employees, what does that mean, beyond just well, you know, I'm giving them some, some money for what they're doing. What kind of benefits are we talking here?

Yeah, I think for so often we've have a, the sense of a transactional relationship. I think Richie, what you just described is I'm going to give you a contribution and you know, I get a paycheck. But the reality is that's not how it's ever worked. I've done a lot of. Christy and I both have done a lot of historical business research and even going back to the Industrial Revolution, you saw a sense of workers wanting what Christy just described, wanting a sense of purpose and meaning from their jobs, wanting that sense of connection and colleg relationship. And honestly, you know, we sang a lot within some of these worker diaries too of just wanting a boss that cares for them, ask them how they're doing and isn't just trying to drive them for more efficiency. So I think these are core human needs that we've always had. We're just at the time and moment. And we have a tremendous privilege to be able to actually start meeting these. We have the amount of resources that are required to do this. And I think, as Kristi said in the very beginning of this podcast, this comes down to a leadership mindset shift more than anything else. And it's funny, I think, you know, I've worked in tech for a while, as is Christie, and I think we've over rotated when it comes to the. You talk about perks and benefits of creating these offices and having a masseuse come and you know, make sure that you're not stressed during the day. But the reality is those were all ploys just to actually get us to stay at the job longer and actually was not driving that core well being that Christy just talked about in terms of connection and relation. And I think that's where leaders have to think through today, especially in Distributed world. What does that look like? I don't think people are going to come work for a company because you have a beer keg or a ping pong table anymore. I think those days are over. I think to me it's much more around where can I actually do something greater than myself? Where can I go home and actually feel good about what I'm doing when I talk to my friends and colleagues about that and how do I do that with people I enjoy working with? And I think that's really coming at the very, very top. And I do think the pandemic drove these core needs to the very top of how we think about work today.

Yeah, that's really interesting. Think about like what works and what doesn't feel like getting you into work and getting you enjoying yourself. And yet I wouldn't bother coming into work for a ping pong table. Snacks, on the other hand, definitely drive me into the office.

Free food is one of the things that does sometimes it's good coffee.

It's really good coffee. That works.

Yes. Yeah. Coffee and snacks. Yeah, that works pretty well, I guess. But the other stuff he's mentioned about just having your boss just ask about your day and say, well, you know, I guess remember stuff about you, celebrate your wins, all these sort of like just communication ideas that's going to work pretty well just to engender some sort of sense of trust actually along those lines, do you have any good tips for how you go about building good relationships between your colleagues? Because it seems like that's quite an important sort of tenant of this good workplace well being?

Yeah, I mean I think it's funny you Know, I get asked this question by leaders all the time, like how do I show up more human at work? And it's always an interesting question. I really get them to think about, well, how did you ever make friends? You know, where, how did you start? Not that your employees have to be your friends, because they don't, but how did you first engage in conversations? Right, you started. It goes back to what Kelly was talking about, this notion of insatiable curiosity. You know, you go to a cocktail party and we're all going to holiday parties now and meeting new people. Well, how do you engage in conversation? And it's that simple at work is that we don't have to. You know, I think this is a little bit of that mindset of seeing each other as human first, not as the title, not as boss, not as the competency that's showing up at work, but really about the person who's showing up at work. And so I think that's where connection begins. Now. I think that there are a lot of things that companies can do, especially in a distributed world. I remember being at a company where we did zip code dinners, that people who lived in the same zip code, the company would give an allowance to say, hey everybody, go get together for coffee, lunch, dinner, whatever. But they provided those resources to do so. That was hugely meaningful. Today, building connection in the workplace is simply, we've all been on meetings where there are people in the room and people on the screen really being conscious of the talk between breaks or just as they come in, engaging with the people on the screen, just as you would as we are talking, being on video, not having your avatar up there, critically important in building connection and building that sense of curiosity of the team into even that virtual format. So I think there are a lot of things that companies can do to engage the workforce force and that goes right back to the welfare of your employees. Their own well being and their own satisfaction at work plays out.

Christine, that's spot on. I think the other thing that often is kind of the invisible hand within organizations of how we're relating to each other is performance management. And I think that is the one thing that really needs to come leaders need to critically think at today because the majority of performance management is wired for very self serving, very competitive, very individualistic behaviors. And we know from human psychology that a good predictor of how humans are going to behave is what you're rewarding and performing within their organization. And so I think this is one of the things that a systematic level to start tackling and thinking about is how do we actually change performance management in a way that's about developing others. Microsoft is a great example of this that overcame their lost decade of performance, realized their software engineers were working in silos, not helping one another out. And as they realized coding was moving from much more of an individual task to a team task. Change 50% of the way that they reward software engineers today around how are they developing others around them? How do they help someone else succeed within their organization? And I look at them today, you know, they did that about 15 years ago, and it's been quite remarkable the way that they've been able to continue to innovate. And I think a lot of that has to do with how you manage and reward your people.

Yeah, I think there are a lot of factors in that, Kelly. I mean, I think you and I have had multiple conversations about this. But performance, great performance comes when the work that you do is meaningful to you and to the company, that you feel as though somebody cares about you, where you feel as though your ideas can be shared. And so we even have to change the way we think about performance and reward and broaden it in order to make sure we have the conditions in which someone can perform at the highest level. I mean, it's like a professional athlete. You have to put the conditioning in, you have to have the tools, you have to have the resources, you have to have the repetition, you have to have the coach. All of those things are really important to then reaching that elite level, same as with an employee. And how we measure them and reward them has to take into account all those other things.

Oh, yeah, lots of bite there. And I do like the idea of having some sort of a safe environment where you can just have bad ideas. I've got to say I like to think I have good ideas, but usually I've had like 20 bad ideas before I've got the good idea. And it's nice just to be able to be like, have other people not complain that I'm just overloading them with terrible ideas before we get to the good one. So, yeah, that cultural environment of just psychological safety is incredibly important. I just want to go back to the thing that you said before, Kelly, about shifting the way people are rewarded to encourage helping each other. What is like a good way of measuring this? In fact, what do you even measure to say this person has been helping the rest of the team?

That's a great question, Richie. So, you know, I think there's been a couple examples of companies that are doing this. Well, a lot of times this comes down to getting 360 feedback. I think oftentimes as we think about performance management, we all have worked for those people who manage up very well because that's where the feedback is going as opposed to actually asking across and down. So I would start there. That's a pretty good barometer and making sure you're getting a holistic view of how the person's behaving throughout the organization and not just up. I also think this is where generative AI is going to become very helpful. A lot of times we have focused a lot on quantitative data. We've all been put in the number box before, the nine box in HR world. But I think what's helpful now is we can rely on a much more qualitative feedback and AI is going to help us synthesize and see that. So again, just as Christy was like joking about, well, how did you make friends before? I think a lot of this is actually asking and checking in much more frequently after projects done. How did it go, the post mortems, you know, what went right, what didn't go right, who was helpful? You know, where was their friction? And oftentimes as human beings we're much better at telling stories and narratives and that hasn't been able to be quantified before because that's so hard from a research perspective to go through and digest all of those words today. I think that's going to become much more helpful and really being able to surface what people think and much more through storytelling and narrative. So both 360s making sure you're getting the holistic point of view across all levels of the organization, but then also being able to lean much more into qualitative feedback and employee listening. And again, this is where AI is going to be a really big friend to us.

I guess even with just that idea of like, well, how do you make friends? How do you talk to your colleagues? Quickly, just ask ChatGPT. Give me like five conversation starters. My boss outsource it to the tech. Maybe there are some good uses for it. So how do you go about implementing all these changes like across your culture then? Because it sounds like you're going to want to try and increase the human interaction aspect of things. I guess it seemed like dinners and snacks, like food related things are also maybe an easier to implement thing. How do you go about changing your organization then in order to improve this leadership? Where does it start?

I think it starts with asking two fundamental questions within the business context. How are we Going to run the place and who runs it. If you think about the business context, in answering those two questions, you've got to be very clear and transparent and articulate about what is the purpose of your organization. It's not just the organization. Is that me as a leader of a business unit or a team even, is what is our purpose? How does it relate to the larger organization? How does it relate to our customers or our partners? So starting with purpose, purpose drives strategy. So how do I think about strategically what my portion of the company needs to accomplish? How are we going to do that? Again, being articulate about that, then looking at culture in order for us to meet the purpose, to meet our strategy, what is the culture we need to develop and to do that as a team. A leader does that with his or her team and is an active conversation about that, I think is critically important. So everybody can feel a sense of ownership around that. And then you look at things like, okay, well, how does that inform how we're structured? What is our operating model going to look like, the procedures, all of those kinds of things. And then it gets to, you know, what Kelly and I spent a lot of time talking about, which is what are the right skills you need? And in terms of not just the skills that you need, but what are the critical roles that are disproportionately going to impact the upstream of that, you know, the answering those questions. And then what's the technology and the engagement that you need from your employees to be successful? So I think while that might sound easy, that formula will tell you exactly what you need to do in terms of how you run the place. More importantly, it will tell you what you need in terms of who runs the place and the behaviors that they need to have.

Okay, I like the idea that you're starting with, like, what are you trying to achieve from a business point of view? And then you start thinking about the people and then like, technology is kind of like its implementation details rather than technology driving things from the beginning. All right, so just to wrap up then, what are you most excited about in the world of leadership at the moment?

You know, I think, Rishi, we are just at such a tremendous crossroads right now. I think there's going to be probably more chaos ahead than certainty. And I think this is the moment for leaders to get right. I think this is a really make or break moment for the majority of leaders today. I think the workforce is ready for it. I think we haven't necessarily talked about Gen Z, but Gen Z in particular, and what they're demanding and asking for is a different type of leader to emerge. And I'm really excited. I think it's going to be we're going to be able to see those leaders. I think they're going to stand out in a way. Sometimes as the world gets darker, some of these bright spots are going to shine even brighter. And I am very confident, optimistic that top talent and high performers are going to be following these leaders that we describe in the book Essential because it's, again, a virtuous cycle. People want to work for these type of leaders, these leaders recruit and attract these type of people, and these type of organizations make a big impact on the world. And so I think that is what I'm optimistic about. I think we are primed and ready to start seeing some of these virtual cycles in motion. What about you, Kristi?

I like the idea that Gen Z are going to be brilliant leaders. Hopefully fingers crossed for them.

Oh, I'm optimistic about Gen Z. Yeah.

I think they're already incredible leaders, to be honest. I share your optimism, Kelly. I think that there is a collective, it feels like a collective need emerging around the globe of real leadership that inspires, that provides security, that psychological security, personal security, all of that. I think we are at a perfect storm from where we've been. And so I do think that there's tremendous optimism. I think that the creative way that individuals are making money, whether that's with a traditional organization or if that's a fractional worker or people who now are investing in their own organizations, founders, I think all of these different ways that people have the flexibility to engage in the economy is so fantastic. Right. And is only going to spur more innovation and fuel the economy. But we need really good leaders to do that. And that's why we felt so moved and called to write this book, is we just. The circumstances of today demand a different kind of leader.

All right, super. Yeah. Well, here's hoping that some of this gets implemented. We get some sort of workplaces where it's a more pleasant experience to be at work. Okay. All right, thank you both for your time. Christy and Kelly.

Thank you, Richie.

Thanks, Richie.