The Psychology of Storytelling | IN-Q

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The main problem is society has taught us that our happiness is something we can gain, something we can claim, something we attach to our name. So we distract from our shame and search for happiness outside ourselves, perpetuating pain. But happiness is not a place. It's not a destination on the map. There's nothing that's outside of you that's going to show you where you're at. Awareness is a conscious act. My happiness is not an accident. I practiced it.

Ooh-wee! NQ is an Emmy-nominated poet, multi-platinum songwriter

with songs written with artists like Selena Gomez, Miley Cyrus, Aloe Blacc.

And he was named to Oprah Winfrey's Super Soul list of the world's most influential thought leaders.

leave all art to the professionals, and in doing that, we rob ourselves of the opportunity to express.

Adam, you just created a 90-minute gift where you brought the entire Finding Mastery team through an experience. There was a nervousness, an excitement. It was just awesome.

Thank you for saying that. We basically went through a storytelling session specifically around the genre of poetry. The idea is figure out what it is That is stopping you from living your life with the fullest power and purpose and passion.

How do we do that?

Well, I'll just tell you how I do it. I just—

Well done, mate. Well done. I see you in queue.

Thank you, buddy.

Yeah, man. Adam, I've never started a podcast the way that I feel Right now. And the reason being is because I've never had the gift that somebody has given me prior to the podcast. So you just created a 90-minute gift where you brought the entire Finding Mastery team through an experience. And I would like for you to describe what it is that you just did for us in your words, but I want to start with my experience for just a moment. Please. My eyes were welling almost half of the time. My heart was full. There was a nervousness and excitement. There was a vulnerability. There was relief in the honesty of sharing. There was the celebration of other people going for it and revealing parts of themselves that were the most honest parts of themselves. It was just awesome. So I'm starting this conversation In a way that I've never started. So I excitingly don't know how this conversation will go. Thank you. And more importantly, can you share what you just walked us through?

Yeah, absolutely. First of all, thank you for saying that. It's a really nice reflection to receive. We basically went through a storytelling session, uh, specifically around the genre of poetry. And I try to create a container for groups of people that either are strangers or who have worked together for years to dive into moving and meaningful stories about their lives and then share them with each other in an environment that celebrates vulnerability, honesty, authenticity, so that people can wind up connecting on a deeper level. And hopefully that connection leads to more empathy. better collaboration and better creation.

As an artist, did you ever think you were going to be in front of thousands of people sharing your art or creating an experience for them to find some art within them? Did you ever think that that would be your path?

Well, I was always more interested in my story, to be honest.

Yeah.

Which, looking back, was necessary. But now the older that I get, I think other people's stories are so fascinating. I mean, I know my own story. And I'm happy to talk about it in this conversation today, but I'll probably also ask you questions about your life because I want to know who you are and how you came to be in this moment that we are sharing together, spinning in the middle of space. So for me, I still write for myself and I share those things with other people. I'm always the first person in my audience. I don't even always decide that I want other people to hear the things that I create. So I start from that place of rawness and realness, but I'd also like to use it as a vehicle for other people to remove the obstacles that are in the way of them telling the truth.

You just hit on something really important, which is like the idea from self to others. And when a person is in pain or they're suffering in some way, emotional, physical, whatever, spiritual, whatever it might be, There tends to be a self-focused or self-absorbed need to take care of the wound or the pain or suffering that the person's experiencing. And so up crops self-help, and it is a self-focused venture, and we get it terribly wrong if we don't get the second note right, which is for what aim, what reason. And the second note is to be there for others, to help others, to support them, to challenge them, to— help them go further, deeper, whatever it might be, that, that, that second beat you're certainly on. And I want to just maybe pause and say, why did you focus? What was happening in your life that you needed, in your words, to do the art for yourself?

Well, I was raised, uh, in Santa Monica, California. My mom was a schoolteacher. My father wasn't around at all. I didn't meet him until I was 15 years old. And because of that, I think I looked outside of myself for what masculinity was supposed to be, at least. And I saw that in television and pop culture, and it made me chase a lot of the wrong things. So I had a very tumultuous path to wind up sitting in this chair with you right now. But one of my escapes and one of my outlets was freestyling. And at the time, it was kind of like my first form of meditation, because when you're freestyling, you have to think about the next rhyme and the next line. And so you can't be out of the moment. You know, it's like rock climbing. You miss a hand or foothold and you fall and die. This is metaphorical, of course, but if you're doing it in front of an audience of any size, whether it's a cypher of 5 people or you're doing it on stage, it is still an existential crisis if the train falls off the tracks, you know? And that made me feel empowered in a way that nothing else ever had, much less about what I was saying. Much more about the act of expression itself.

Interestingly, that the same circuitry in the brain for prepping oneself for physical danger and consequence is the same or very similar cousin circuitry to emotional and social. So when somebody walks on stage, Wyatt said it's one of the great fears for people is that it feels like you Could die.

Totally.

And it's the same circuitry. Heart is pounding, racing, his breathing changes. There's a bit of a shimmy that takes place quietly in the body for a little bit. You know, like it's a whole experience readying for fight or flight. Why? Because it feels as though if somebody were to ostracize us with a cut of an eye,

right?

Right. Or a yawn or a look to their partner like this guy or whatever, you know, whatever the actual or perceived nonverbal experience that you as the presenter or anybody that's a presenter might experience feels as though it is life and death.

Yeah.

So you got to have a sense of control in what felt to be a life and death experience. And over time, do you still feel that vulnerability when you perform, which you just did, or do you feel like you are

Free. Yes, and it's both. There's always more layers of freedom that I could find, and every environment is different, and I still want to provide the most value that I can. So I want people to like my art, but I'm not willing to give up my authenticity in order to do that. And I still have—

Is that the fight? Is that the inner civil war, the struggle? Like, I want people to like it, but I will not become small For it.

Yeah. I mean, you have to love yourself above and beyond everything in order to love other people and in order to truly be in the world as your momentary true self.

We give what we have.

Yeah.

That's all we can give, what we have. We have anxiety, nervousness, frustration, love. That's what we give.

Yeah. And I think trying to hide it is just a waste of energy. But I still have voices in my head. You know, part of the civil war is my own judgments on myself, my own judgments on other people, perceived or real. You know, there was this one time I was performing on stage and you mentioned, oh, get a load of this guy, or facial expressions.

You were reading somebody's facial expression in the crowd?

That's right. And they actually got on their phone. The room of thousands of people, I see this one fucking guy on his phone. I'm like focused on this guy.

What was the quiet thought you had?

He's not listening. Here I am. I'm sharing something that is vulnerable. I'm sharing something true. I'm sharing something from my life. I don't need to do this. I'm giving this to you. You're not receiving my gift. And then of course afterwards he comes up to me and he's like, man, I was sorry about that. I was writing down. The things that you were saying. So I had created a reality that wasn't real. First of all, it made me think, how many times do I do that in other situations?

Oh, we're constantly sorting out information to fill in the holes of the story. And most of our stories are that we are not good enough. We are not enough. So we scan the world. Our brains are designed for threat detectors. And we scan the world looking for all the threats. And if the story is, unresolved or unclear if we are okay being wherever we are, then potentially a lot is the threat that we are making up.

Right.

I had a similar experience. I think you're going to really appreciate this. I don't think I've ever talked about this.

Right.

Is my first foray in pro sport, right out of graduate school. I'm as green as you can be in a sport that I never played or understood a lick of the culture.

What was the sport?

Ice hockey. And I grew up on the beach surfing. Okay. So, and I didn't, I did not understand pro sport. I did not really care to work in pro sport. I wanted to work with people that wanted to get free, to explore their edges, that were as committed to that venture that I was. Right? Like, I didn't have a tolerance for, I was very intolerant at that time, but I didn't have a tolerance for meandering or That type of approach to life. So the GM, so back to the politics of it, the GM brought me in and he is like, man, this was a great meeting. We're going to love you. We really need, this is amazing. Like, I can't wait to get started. He sent over a contract. I didn't even read it. I was excited just because he was excited. I signed it and he says, see you at the rink, you know, next week. Great. So I show up at the rink. Have you ever been to an empty arena and ice rink? No.

No.

Empty arena, large cavernous space. I don't know, 20 guys on blades skating. Okay. It's really cold. I showed up in flip-flops and board shorts. The laugh is appropriate. And I was like, oh man, I'm cold. Oh man, I have no idea what I'm doing here. So now I'm completely in the throes of imposter syndrome. I'm completely in the throes of imposter syndrome. I didn't have a name for it at the time. Long story getting a little bit shorter. He sees, the coach sees me. I hadn't met the coach yet. He sees me, but he knows why I'm there. I'm the sports psych— I'm the mental skills guy. I'm going to help him.

Hmm.

He's a hardened coach now. He whistles, blows a whistle, pulls all the guys to the center line. And then I don't know what's happening, but then I see the guys radically going blue line to blue line skating feverishly, intensely. And I'm like, damn. These boys practice hard. So then blows another whistle. They're gasping for air and kind of everyone's walking to the locker room past me and they're kind of grunting, looking at me like they know what I'm here for. Okay. So then coach walks with me and he says, hey, come to my office. So we go into the office. We talked about nothing for 4 minutes, nothing. And he says, I'm going to introduce you to the boys. We walk out into the locker room. Guys are kind of half changing, if you will. It smells like you've never smelled anything. It's awful. And he walks out and these are like, Alpha competitive men. And he says, hey boys, this is Gervais, and he's here to help us with our minds. And apparently, if you're fucked up in the head, go talk to him. And he turns around and walks away.

Wow.

Now, in that moment, I had a choice. I'll stop the story here because the choice is actually immaterial. But I'll stop the story here for one reason. I didn't know what I was doing.

Hmm.

I walked into a locker room with a coach who had no interest in me being there. And so I share all of that with you because now here I am 20 years later at the Seattle Seahawks. Head coach brought me in and I hadn't met the GM yet.

Hmm.

I hadn't learned anything in 20 years. How about that? I'm in front and now I'm presenting in front of all the coaches, staff, whatever. And the GM leans over to the head coach, and they're in the front seat, and he leans over and he whispers in his ear. And I hadn't met him yet, and I felt like I was completely naked in front of the— in the room. And I made up a story. Oh my God, I haven't learned a thing yet. I should have met the GM before I'm coming in to talk to the team. And so, man, that's a long narrative.

Can I ask you, A couple of questions about that.

Yeah.

Do you mind telling me or us, I guess, what, what the choice was? And because that's a part of finding mastery too, is like dealing with that imposter syndrome and still deciding to show up.

Yeah.

So what was that choice? And then what, how did that ripple into the rest of the experience or, or working with the team?

I'll tell you exactly what it was. The reason I stopped the story and I didn't finish it is because there's not an ounce of vulnerability in it. And I was in a vulnerable state. And what I did in that moment as he was walking away, it's going to make me sound like a hero, but it was my only option. I came from humble means, you know, like humble.

Yeah.

Not poor, definitely not like whatever, but like humble. But I definitely didn't need money because I didn't value it. What I valued was like looking somebody in the eye. And having an experience, so he walked away and he gave me his back. And I grew up in a in action sports and punk sports, if you will. You know, I said, "Hey coach," I was full of piss and fire at that moment. I said, "Hey coach, my door's open for you." Like what a fucked up thing for him to do to me.

Yeah.

So I gave it right back to him. Right? Door's open for you. And I fully thought I was going to get thrown out of there.

Yeah.

And I also thought that he might turn around and like. Become violent.

Sure.

Like aggressive, not physically violent. And, um, he paused, his feet were staggered, and he nodded his head. I could see him nod his head and the boys go crazy. They go nuts.

Of course.

Right. And so it was in that moment, he knew in that moment, like, oh, okay. So he's not going to take my shit.

Yeah.

And then the boys knew that like, oh, okay, well maybe the guy's got something to say because he just stood up for himself. So I say all that because I bury the lead because it sounds like a hero story, and I'd rather actually have most of that left to the imagination. You know, like, I don't know. Finding Mastery is brought to you by Fatty 15. Okay, let's talk about longevity. Longevity is much more than simply adding years. It's about maintaining health and a zest and a vitality and enhanced performance as you age. And that's why I'm excited about Fatty 15. It's an award-winning supplement. It's powered by C15, which is the first essential fatty acid discovered in over 90 years. Okay, so C15, it's a geroprotector. What that means is it helps to slow biological aging by strengthening your cells, basically protecting them from damage. You can think of it like kind of like a 401 for your health where you're investing in cellular, quote unquote, resilience. And I dug into the research on the relationship between C15 and heart health. I love what I saw. Fatty15 is on a mission to optimize your C15 levels to help you live healthier, longer. Get 15% off your 90-day subscription starter kit by heading to fatty15.com/findingmastery and use the code findingmastery at checkout. That's fatty, F-A-T-T-Y, 15.com/findingmastery. Start investing in your long-term health today. Body Mastery is brought to you by Granola. Here's something that I think most of us miss without even really realizing it. Every conversation that we have has 2 layers happening at once. There's the conversation, the obvious conversation with the words themselves, and then there's everything else underneath. That's the emotional language, the subtle tones of voice, microexpressions, the brief pauses before someone answers. That second layer is really rich with information, and in meetings, it's easy to miss it when our heads are down and we're taking notes. That is why I use Granola. Granola is an AI-powered notepad that makes your meeting notes useful. It captures what happens in your meetings and then turns them into clean, structured notes with decision and action items pulled out and made easy to find. And the best part, it works right through your device's audio, which means that it integrates seamlessly into the video conferencing tools that you already use. No big setup, no awkward bots. I use it every day when my meetings are done. There's a clean recap and a clear set of next steps that are just waiting for me. Nothing slips away. This isn't about doing less. It's about being more present. I think you're really gonna like what Granola's doing.

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No, but I loved it. I love the punchline.

Yeah.

You can't leave it out because it is the hero story, but it's not the hero story 'cause it was easy. The hero story is never easy. And you could have pivoted or not done anything.

Yeah.

You know, fight or flight or freeze. You know, you could have frozen.

Or submit. Yeah.

Or submit.

Yeah.

But to actually do what you did, to stand up for yourself, but not only for yourself, for what you believed in.

But I didn't think I had a choice.

Yeah.

You know, like there was really very little vulnerability. It was reflective. And so—

Even that though, you being that guy is part of what allowed you to communicate to the team and open them up to new possibilities. Because if they didn't see themselves in you, they might not have trusted you in order to do it. And the coach certainly wouldn't have. So it was kind of like a, you know, mic drop.

Yeah. And I think most of us, like in pro sport, like there's a lot of money flowing.

Yeah.

And people say, you show me how you respect me with my contract. That's a sentiment that would, an athlete, you know, clearly could take easily. But you and I both know it's not about the money.

No, it's definitely not.

Money's cool.

Yeah.

It can, you can do a lot of good with it, you know, and create some safety and this, that, and the other. But I wanna make sure I'm not losing the bead here because this is a fun story to talk about, but I wanna come back to your genius. Okay?

No, I'm more interested in yours. I'll be honest. I'm more interested in yours. I'll let you be the captain of the ship.

Why is poetry so important to you?

I mean, I think that you can express yourself in any art form. And I think that one of the tragedies of modern-day society is that we leave all art to the professionals. And in doing that, we rob ourselves of the opportunity to express, to explore, and to alchemize. the trapped energy inside of us. And it's not that, I don't think that the people that have spent their outlier hours, including myself, becoming a professional at something, don't deserve to have the spotlight, but everybody deserves to have a spotlight. Everyone deserves to be seen, to be heard, to be respected, and to be celebrated. And I just provide a space for people to do it through spoken word.

I was gonna say, pause that because that's exactly what you did. So that is your, That is a first principle for you. All people deserve to feel seen, fill it in, the words you just said.

Yeah. Seen, heard, respected, celebrated.

Celebrated. Yeah. So the power of a first principle is cool when it's clear, but then it is exponentially more powerful when it can be lived in any environment. And you just did it. Now, I think we're a friendly group, but you don't know what our narrative is about whatever that you're going to you know, give us. And so very cool. Thank you for reminding of the first principles. And this was a mechanism of self-discovery. Your artist name is In-Q.

Yeah.

Stemming from?

When I was, you know, a teenager and looking for a rap name, my buddy Jay was like, I'm going to start calling you Inquiry because I was always so curious, asking questions and incessantly thinking about why things were the way that they were and who people were and who I was and what we were doing. here in the first place. And then everybody just started calling me Inquiry, and then Enqueue, and then Q for short. And I rarely heard my real name after that.

You're a white guy in rap in LA in the '90s.

Yeah.

Tell me about that.

I found plenty of stages that I could get on, and I made, you know, 10 albums over my years, and, um, you know, got a standing ovation from Dre in a, you know, kind of like crazy club called Stevie's in the Valley. And, you know, met some of my heroes and was in the studio countless times, but I couldn't quite figure out how to turn the corner on it. And so I was always chasing this idea of success. And I came up at a time where like you needed to know people. You needed to meet an A&R. And I knew no one coming up, right? So I had to like figure out my own ways, you know, selling CDs out of the trunk of my car. And during this period of time, I ended up at an open mic for poets in Los Angeles called the Poetry Lounge. Turned out to be the biggest open mic in the country. 350 people have come for almost 30 years to just watch people get on stage and about their fears, about their anger, about their pain. And it's like church without religion. And it was definitely the college I never went to. And that group of people became my community. That became my family. I got on stage. I was just doing my rapping a cappella at first, and then was on HBO's Def Poetry Jam, and we won the National Poetry Slam Championships. And I was like, this is it. I woke up one day and I was like, I'm more of a poet than an MC.

Oh, okay. So that was— you said we, who's we in that?

Just that whole group of people, you know?

Okay, got it.

Shion, Javon Johnson, Omari Hardwick, Talib Masih. There's just countless incredible artists in the spoken word community, not only in Los Angeles, across the country, that really inspired me. And I would say, you know, steel sharpens steel. They helped create my style as

And you've also been fortunate to write or co-write some massive hits.

Yeah, I mean, I mentioned it during the workshop, but trying to figure out how to make a living as a poet is like, you know, chopping your way through the jungle with machete and a half-filled canteen. And it took me a really long time to monetize what I was doing without losing my artistic integrity. But I was doing colleges and, you know, doing poetry readings and Doing workshops in libraries and junior high schools and high schools and juvenile facilities, anywhere really I could provide a space for kids to explore their voice and to feel empowered through this art that I loved so much. And at one of those shows, somebody came and then through an introduction ended up bringing me into this production team called Rock Mafia. And they make huge hits for all sorts of artists, and they saw something in lyricism and allowed me to kind of like jump on songs. So, you know, our biggest hit was Selena Gomez, Love You Like a Love Song, or at least the one I was involved in. But we also wrote with Miley Cyrus and Aloe Blacc and Foster the People and, um, Mike Posner and have written over like 50 songs for Disney television movies that have become quite, uh, successful over the years in these major franchises like Descendants.

Yeah.

all of that. And it's funny because even while I was doing all that Disney stuff, which I am still doing now, I almost looked at it as like something I was doing while I was doing the real thing that I was doing, which was like this poetry was more important to me. But now—

That's a mechanism that you probably found some safety in.

Exactly.

Right? That was a narrative that you adopted so that you could stay core.

That's right.

Even though it was, that's an amazing set of experiences.

Yeah.

Why did you need to have that mechanism?

I think it probably was unhealthy fuel that I needed to use to keep going.

Oh, so you come from a chip?

Yeah, yeah. Huge chip. Boulder.

When did you know you had a chip? And have you made a decision that the chip is serving you or not serving you? Where are you with the chip now?

I'm chipping away at the chip. I want to, I want to turn it into a sculpture. And maybe it's like an ever-changing sculpture. as I move into my life, you know, it becomes

really heavy.

Yeah. Did you, you, I'm assuming, can relate to that? How did you address yours?

Yeah, I was, you know, nice way to deflect. My chip was that I wasn't smart enough.

Yeah, me too.

And then so I distracted as cleverly as I could from looking at my intelligence. And come to find out, I actually can think Relatively quickly. I didn't know it, but I had to go a long way in the education pathway to come at home with myself that no, like my thinking capabilities are actually fine.

Did you have any learning disabilities or?

No, no. Yeah, it was just a narrative that somebody saw something in me and they, I heard them say, maybe he's stupid. And I thought, oh, that doesn't, this feels awful. So Let's not be vulnerable around this again. So—

Did it make you try less in school?

Oh, it made me try harder not to be seen. So I didn't try at all in school. I shouldn't have graduated. This is a part of my history that I don't talk about. I got a zero on my PSAT. I got a zero on my SAT. I went surfing for both of them. I didn't have any college path. And so people would say, oh, Dr. Michael Gervais, Licensed psychologist, specialization sport, subspecialty consequence, done all these amazing things. I didn't have a clue what was happening as a high school student, and because I was too afraid to actually invest, to be vulnerable to invest. So I went to a community junior college, and I feel really fortunate I got inspired by 3 folks. And so—

They were mentors of yours while you were there?

3 professors.

Yeah.

Yeah. It sounds like a bad joke. It was a theologian, a philosopher, and a psychologist.

They walk into a college.

They walk into a college. Yeah. Yeah. And I tripped over kind of everything they were leaving behind. And they was like, hey kid, like, this seems like you are interested in it. And I said, it is. I am interested.

Was there any one moment that you remember being turned on? Like your brain kind of like clicked to what could be rather than what was?

Yeah. I was really struggling with some anxiety. It's my freshman year in, at a junior college. And my professor, psychology professor, was walking to class and I said, hey, Hey, Doc, can I walk with you to class? And he goes, yeah, come on. And I said, there's something I'd like to talk to you about. Is it cool? He goes, yeah. And we had a 6-minute walk to the class, and I thought I was going to get all of my therapy done in this moment. I didn't know what therapy was, but I knew that I needed to ask somebody that knew about psychology. And I started to tell him a story about this scenario that was very difficult and anxiety-provoking for me. And I was shaking as I was telling him, tremoring, not shaking.

Yeah.

And he could hear it in my voice and the whole thing. And he stopped me mid-sentence and he's like, hey, when somebody knocks on your door, do you have to answer it? And I thought, damn, dude, like I'm telling you my story. I'm giving you my heart. What do you mean? And he saw that I was stunned. And, uh, he looked at me and kept pacing and just kept walking to class. And I was like standing still. And I was like, psychologists are weird. That's lame. That is awful. I didn't even want to go to class.

Yeah.

And it took me way too long to sort out that he fundamentally interrupted my train track, my pattern. Well said. I didn't realize what he was doing. And he did it and it was awesome. And I thought forever, like, man, he's on something. Like, I got to know what he— like, how did he know? And so, um, that was a moment for me that was cool.

It's almost like Tony Robbins, like, change your state, change your mind. He interrupted Your state.

Yeah,

but he did it in a way where it planted a seed for you that wound up growing into, you know, a redwood.

Back at you. Is there a moment?

I would not say that I have one moment necessarily that comes to mind. What I would say is I could very much relate to not feeling smart as a student. I mean, you know, like from the beginning of my academic career. I mean, I just never really felt like I could communicate or get good grades.

That's something though, you know, look what you're doing here.

Yeah, it's interesting. And, and I definitely decided I was stupid, you know. And the same thing, I was, uh, almost like wanting to disappear academically. And if I didn't try, yeah, then I wasn't risking failure.

I had the second part, not the first part.

Say again?

I had the second part, not the first part. Okay. I didn't decide. I just didn't want to know.

Yeah, I

was afraid to have it be true.

But that's a metaphor for a lot of areas in life that people have blind sides around. Like, they decide something and then they don't pursue something because they're afraid to lose it or to fail. And in doing that, They never allow themselves to adapt or to transform or to find, you know, what else could be hidden beneath. And so it's really great when someone in your life or something that you experience or a piece of art plants that seed to interrupt your pattern. I would say definitely poetry did that for me.

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You have an ability with your eye contact and your precision of language to be able to at least be interested in the heart of something, the center of it. What is it about your life experiences that led you to get right into the center of an idea or an expressed idea?

Well, so the curiosity has always been there. I could very easily talk about myself. I could very easily be in conversation with people, but I could also very easily, like, interview people, not in front of the cameras, but I really just love digging into people's lives, as I said. And I love digging into my own through this particular art form of rhythm and rhyme. So I would say part of the spark that made me do that was this desire, this falling in love with self-expression without boundaries. Part of it was desperation, no plan B. Part of it was obsession because that's my personality type. And I always thought, you know, what's my favorite piece? The next one. I don't know what it's going to be. And there was some excitement there. So I would be up till the wee hours of the morning exploring like the kernel of an idea. But it always came from something that was true or some breadcrumb trail that I wanted to follow to find out what was at the end. Like even now when I start a piece, I don't think what do other people want to hear? I think what do I want to explore? And if I pay attention to my daily life, things stand out. It's almost like being on shrooms and everything becomes brighter and more vibrant. Something in my day might become more vibrant. And then I'll take that idea and I'll put it into my phone. And because it started in a place that was real and authentic, whenever I come back to it, it's always going to be real and authentic.

Words are one of our greatest tools as humans, and our mind is the kind of the— this ecosystem that allows us to understand And have ideas and connect them with emotions and express the feeling, you know, as best as we possibly can, or the concept as best we possibly can. And your tool is very, very, very, very refined. I would hope that there'd be a couple ways that you could help our community be on the path of refining the words. And when I say refinement, I'm not saying like, shiny. I'm saying precise and accurate and honest, meaning lining up thoughts and words. If you can line up thoughts and words in any environment, you will become masterful at self. Most of us become overwhelmed that the consequences of our thoughts and words might not be good enough or might be dangerous or might create, I don't know, some disparity or whatever. And so we play it safe and small. How can you help us be more tuned to the words that we choose that are honest?

Through art or through life?

Yeah, I'm not sure I know the difference.

Yeah, well, that's a mic drop as well. I mean, that's a beautiful way to say it because our art is our lives.

Yeah.

I asked everybody before we started who thinks they're a poet and only Sandra raised her hand. And then I asked who thinks they're a storyteller. And everybody raised their hand because we do know inherently that we're all storytellers and that the stories that we tell ourselves and other people become our lives. So the idea is change your story, change your life, change your life, change the world. Interrupt other people's patterns, interrupt your own patterns, figure out what it is that is stopping you from living your life with the fullest power and purpose and passion, and even create exercises for yourself to go after those things.

How, how do we do that?

Well, I'll just tell you how I do it.

Cool.

And how I help other people do it through poetry. I create this structure for people to explore things that are moving and meaningful to them. So the first thing I tell them stylistically, when you're writing a poem, you can do it any way you want. It can rhyme if you want it to rhyme. It doesn't have to rhyme if you don't want it to. It can be long. It can be short as long as you're not like shorting yourselves. Like use the time that you give yourself to fully dive into the subject matter. But almost like don't approach it as a journal entry because when you're doing a journal, you're using the same voice that you use to communicate with the world. And yourself. So there's a catharsis that comes from getting those things out of your system. But when you're actually creating a piece of art, you are separating yourself from the story. And in that space is where alchemy lives. It's where healing begins. So say to yourself, you're writing a poem before you start, and then you're writing a poem and no one can tell you any different. The second guideline is choose that thing that is moving and meaningful. that you wouldn't normally talk about after 15 minutes at a dinner party. So something that's a layer deeper, something you want to release, something you want to create, something you want to process, a memory. And then the third thing is don't try to make it great. Don't even try to make it good. Just make it real, make it honest, make it authentic, because then it will be better than good. It will be great. And afterwards, hopefully, Once you're done, you might decide to share it with somebody in your inner circle because there is something about seeing and being seen and being unconditionally accepted for our stories that allow us to have more power over them rather than them having power over us.

Super clean, very easy to follow, and you just need to get a piece of paper out and go to work.

Exactly.

Okay. What I love about that is that's a 15-minute to 45-minute training session, ideally daily, weekly, whatever the tolerance for or interest level of the self-discovery process. And what I really love about it is that there are no secrets to the work. It's doing the work. You just created a container. Like, look, there's— perfect is not the aspiration. Honesty is like the— if you want to write a poem, just say, I'm going to write a poem. And then hopefully if you get to a place that you're like, yeah, that's honest, that you'll share it with somebody.

Right.

That's the work. And most of us want the same thing. We want to live an amazing life.

Yeah.

We want the same for our kids and our loved ones. We want to live this small amount of time we have here. Like, we want an amazing life.

Yeah.

How? You got to do some work.

Yeah.

On yourself. And it's like saying that you want to be really healthy, but you make a whole set of different choices, right? I want to be happy, but you do things that do not support it. I want to be alive and vibrant, but you do things that do not support that. You're saying if you want to be alive and vibrant, here's a way

to

do it.

And it's not the only way. And it's not the only way that you could do it through poetry. You know, there's plenty of other ways that I'm sure you could approach this, but this is my way and it's the gift that I try to keep giving to myself and the world.

Poets have taken up an important role in humanity. They'll often point out cleverly things that are in plain sight, but people are afraid to say, or they're not clear enough to say them in a way that can move people. And what is the downside or dark side of this role that you have in Your family and/or your communities?

That's a really, really great question. I'm not sure anybody's ever asked me that, and I have a very specific answer to it. And it almost goes back to a conversation we were having about therapists. Therapy has played a really important role in my life, but I believe whether it's right or wrong for other people, I can't say. But for myself, I don't want to be with the same therapist for 25 years. Like, and I think a really great therapist will probably say, you've learned what you've needed to learn from me, and now I want you to go be empowered in your life in other ways. What I would say is, is that like, you can dig into your life too much. And I've certainly done that through my art. I've actually like buried something and then just like dug it back up and then buried it again and dug it back up. And at a certain point, I realized that was unnecessary and unhealthy for me to move on. Like, you have to also move on, you know, and you have to move into your life and you have to take full responsibility for everything that has happened, whether or not you understand it, you know, but never looking in the rearview mirror doesn't work either. So people have to find ways and they have to look at their life like a diversified portfolio. Rebalance, rebalance, rebalance. There was this one specific time, I was like in my mid-20s, where like I had broken up with somebody and I was having a hard time, you know. I was about to sit down and write this like new breakup poem about this whole relationship that didn't fucking work and blah blah blah. And, uh, instead I decided to read some of my old breakup poems. So I break out all these old breakup poems. I read all the old breakup poems.

Yeah, I gotta get into the vibe of my heartache.

No, no, it wasn't even that. It was my curiosity to just, instead of make something new about a similar subject, let me just look at what I've already created.

Oh yeah.

And what I realized is all of those old breakup poems applied to the new breakup. So then I go, okay. I don't need to write a new brega poem. I need to figure out why I'm continuing to create the same lesson in a different disguise over and over again, and then write it out and get celebrated for it on stage. Because my life is more important than my art. Because like you said, my art is my biggest life. So from then on, I was like, okay, I'm gonna start writing about solutions rather than problems. And I went through a stage like that. And then I realized, oh, I don't want to only be living in solutions because that's inauthentic. So then I started to, you know, and it's always like this rediscovery of myself through my art over the years. So I would say maybe the downside is just, um, always needing to analyze something rather than just accept something. But even that, I could analyze accepting and turn that into a piece of art that hopefully would be resonant for somebody else, you know?

Yeah, I, I was wondering if you would make it about your, your dark side or other people's dark side, meaning that it's hard to be around people that can put a spotlight on the dusty corner and point out the dusty corner. It's hard to be around that person. Yeah, that holds a gaze And just in that gaze, there's a depth of wanting to understand. And then it kind of kicks up like a dry rag in an attic, the anxiety and the stuff in other people. And it can happen just from a look. It can happen from a micro-expression, like, really? You know, say more or whatever it might be. And it kicks up a lot. I'm wondering if that is the case for you as well, or do I need to ask your wife if that's the case for you?

Well, it's funny because you could talk about my most Intimate relationships, or you could talk about people that I work with, or you could talk about strangers, and all of what you said could apply to any of them.

Is that right?

Yeah. And like, there's this one interesting thing that happened to me recently. I'm not going to say the specifics because I don't want to like call anyone out, but I recently did like a big inspiring meeting of the minds conference, and I just thought that the organizers were really unaligned. And I did not like their behavior, but I was already there. And I'm a stickler for the truth, you know, and somebody did something and it kind of like, um, was negative towards one of the people on my team. And I got on them real quick and I created like an unnecessary enemy in the world. So the good part is I stand up for the people that I care about. And I'll tell the truth. But the bad part is some people didn't ask for the truth. And I don't need to be the global police of arrogance because that's actually not good for myself. It's not good for my team and it's not good for my family. It's not good for my art. So it's like, once again, rebalance, rebalance, rebalance.

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Somebody that's looking at the truth for the truth. What are you doing here? Not in the studio, but what are you doing here?

That's a great question because my wife and I have a 1-and-a-half-year-old at home and our family is quickly expanding. And not having a father in my household was certainly a part of my maturing. Um, for both good and bad, I guess. And I had these like unexpressed unconscious expectations about becoming a father, especially so late. And then our son, who's like a magical little dude, he also had colic and he's like really spirited. And, um, it was, um, a bumpy ride for both my wife and I. And it kind of like felt like somebody— have you ever taken acid?

No.

Okay. Not that I'm promoting it, but

yeah,

you know, I have. And when you take acid, it's almost like somebody like cuts off your head, you know, and from, from here, and everything that you know is in confetti and just like dumps it on the floor.

Exactly what I imagined.

Yeah. And then you, you pick it up and put it back in in different different orders. So you have different realizations about yourself and about the world. That was like what having our son was kind of like, you know, he's a really, he doesn't sleep very well, you know? So it was like a really, really long period of time of just expectations versus reality mixed with overwhelming love mixed with my own desires from the past. I thought this was going to be so, and then. It's made me then re-question the Rubik's Cube of my life and what I am doing here and what truth am I searching for. I mentioned this to somebody after the workshop. I try to like give myself the room always to wake up every day and decide not to be a poet because I want to always have freedom around my choices and not become a prisoner. to the life that I have already lived? Because I don't want to wake up and say, oh my God, I'm like chasing dreams of a version of myself that has already died. And then when I rechoose being a poet every day, I do it from that place of power.

This is worth interrupting. Sorry.

Please.

That idea that you examine the choice, the fundamental choice, is really scary and wonderful. And it feels like not needed. Maybe it's for some people like, oh, why would you want to do that? Like, just keep moving, keep growing. I'm going to apply that same principle to the way that I do love with my wife, is that my mom introduced this idea at a very young age and I didn't get it. And I thought it was almost like a throwaway comment. But she says, no, you need to make a choice every day to be in love.

Hmm.

And when I think about the woman that I married and fell in love with in my 20s is a very different woman that I am partnered and in love with now. And so I'm not making a choice, reality versus expectations, to love the woman only as a 20-year-old.

Right.

But all of those changes and all of the heartaches and the fun and everything we've been through and to celebrate every morning the new person. So I, when I hear you say that you do that for yourself, I'm like, yeah, I, I do that just about, I would say just about, 'cause I'm not doing it every morning, but just about every morning in my relationship. And so now I'm gonna apply that same thing to myself.

Please.

Yeah. And so what does that look like? Like, how would I do that when I wake up in the morning? I, hold on. I know why I don't do it.

Mm-hmm.

I've had a disdain since I was a kid. People would say, oh, this is Mike. He's a surfer. I said, no, no. And I would correct it. No, I surf a lot. Very different. Like my identity was, I never wanted my identity collapsed on the thing that I did.

That's great.

I knew that from a young age that there was something super dangerous with it.

Yeah.

It kept me from going all in though.

Yeah.

Because if my identity was completely connected to that, I probably would've fully chipped in and I didn't. Sometimes it haunts me because I didn't. All that being said is I don't currently see myself as a psychologist or whatever. So how would I do it if I'm refusing to have my identity be the thing that I do?

I think then you're already doing it.

Oh,

or maybe I'm misunderstanding, but like what you just said, I feel like is the recipe.

Got it.

So you might not even need to check in. Because it's already inherent to who you are.

That was like as a 14-year-old punk.

I mean, it's the same thing with me from the standpoint of like, I thought I was going to be a professional basketball player.

You did?

1,000% certain of that when I was 8. You know, I didn't grow. I didn't get strong enough.

Oh, hard dream.

And then you're like 12 and you're like, people are dunking and, you know, it's just like no chance, you know?

Yeah.

It's good on the all-star team of boys club Santa Monica, but not, not in the big leagues.

The rec league was—

right. So yeah. Yeah. And then I thought I was going to be an MC. That was my next thing. Well, if I put everything into that, I'm going to— and then that didn't happen. These 2 dreams that kind of died or became other things. And so now in this new dream, I kind of realize it's not the only dream. And I don't want people to only see me for what I have or what I do or who they think I am. Even, because then I'm trapped. Then I'm just trying to recreate past success or past perception over and over and over again, rather than being in discovery.

Yeah, you've got a golden handcuff or golden cage that's pretty electric. You've flown at the highest levels, you're shaping rooms of thousands of people, you're intimately available, and it's— it really does wrap around this skill that you have. And so if you ignore the skill, who are you?

Right.

Yeah. It's a dangerous proposition.

Yeah.

And as I say everything I just said, can I put you on the spot?

Yes.

Can you share your art? Any, anything that comes up that seems fitting for you right now?

Yeah. Happiness is not a place. It's a range. It's not a goal that you reach because it's constantly in phase, but if you stay inside the margins and you consciously engage, your happiness can find a balance on the razor's edge of change. The main problem is society has taught us that our happiness is something we can gain, something we can claim, something we attach to our name so we distract from our shame and search for happiness outside ourselves, perpetuating pain. But happiness is not a place. It's not a destination on the map. There's nothing that's outside of you that's going to show you where you're at. Awareness is a conscious act. My happiness is not an accident. I practiced it. This one time I saw a dude who worked for Vons collecting stacks of shopping carts in the parking lot with only one arm. Now, I should say that on this particular day, I had been feeling down about myself, depressed about some stupid shit, complaining in my head that I'm not as far along as I would like to be, that life is victimizing me. And mind you, I was buying food at the time. To put into my car, to put into my house. To put into my fridge, to put into my mouth. And that's when I saw him, 10 carts deep, pushing them with one arm down the street, whistling. I swear he was whistling. Do you know how happy I would have to be to spontaneously pucker up my lips like I was about to blow a kiss, then open up a bit and push some air from my esophagus into a higher pitch? Anyway, back to this dude. The first thought I had, I'll admit, was a bit rude, but hear me out before you boo. See, I was confused because if I was in his shoes and I had to choose a job, this would not be the job I'd choose. And I know that sounds hardcore, but honestly, this is one of the jobs that I would want 2 arms for. Now, that being said, this particular dude was an absolute gangster. The arm he had Looked like it was strong enough to be the anchor on an oil tanker. The arm he had looked like it was strong enough to be the anchor on an oil tanker, like he could have been Arnold Schwarzenegger's trainer back when he was starring in The Terminators. And it woke me up like the scent from a cup of Sanka. So I went home and I wrote this poem as an ode to thank him. See, it really got me thinking about my situation. Why the fuck am I complaining? Our world is full of people maintaining. No matter who you are or where you're from, we all have to wake up every day and accept the fact that we don't know where we'll go or why we've come. And that can cause confusion. So we distract ourselves and focus on amusement instead of self-improvement, a mutually agreed upon collective Collective delusion. But with this much stimulus and this little understanding, it's no wonder we don't all just completely fucking lose it. Genius and insanity are closer than they seem. Your perspective is the difference between your nightmares and your dreams. Because if everything is energy and my body is a vessel, Then my struggle is unique, but that doesn't make it special. And this dude here has the balls to up and whistle with a fistful of shopping carts that he guided like a missile. And it blew me away like a sneeze into a tissue that someone who has seemingly so many issues could be unequivocally so blissful, while someone who's as lucky as I am could be self-creating Problems by the listful. So from this point on, if my thoughts start thinking that they're important or my feelings start feeling too distorted, I'm going to sort them into categories to see if I can change them. If I can, I'll simply make the moves to rearrange them. If I can't, I'll acknowledge them, but I won't engage them. I looked them square into their eyes with courage as I faced them and—

Dude, I don't know how you do it, but the entire time you're taking on this very plain language expression with real depth to what you're sharing. And the entire time I've got this electric kind of thing on the top of my stomach, like, where's he going? Oh, he just hit it. But where's he going to go now? Oh, oh my goodness. He just did that the whole time.

Thanks.

Yeah. I don't know how you do it, but I know it's time under tension, being really honest. But thank you for the high art of helping me feel a certain way about myself, which is like, there's more in me. There's further to go. I feel more grateful when I'm around you. And so, um, I'd just be very clear that I wish you were in more rooms, especially rooms of leadership, to help people get more clear about what matters to them. And to be able to influence the others in the most honest way that you're doing it for them. So thank

you,

man. Yeah, like, I can't wait to figure out how to do more with you. And I hope our community stands up and, you know, gets their phone out and email and whatever and gives you a ring and hits you on social or whatever, for sure. And before we kind of close the conversation up for now, it all comes down to

It all comes down to the miracle of this moment. You know, I always thought that when we had kids, uh, I would always be split wherever I went because, you know, we travel a lot and I do, uh, things for communities and corporations, companies all around the world, right? And I thought I would be there and be halfway there, you know, because I had this like anchor of the thing that was most important to me at home. And even though I do have that anchor, weirdly, I just have more appreciation for every moment that I'm in because otherwise it's a disservice to my family and a disservice to me and a disservice to God. And it's like this time that you and I have spent, it's the only time It's the only time that's promised, and I'm fully here with you. I always want to provide the most value to people that I can, and I also want to be on an adventure. So I would say the miracle of this moment.

Well done, mate. Well done. I see you in queue.

Thank you, buddy.

Yeah, man. All right, brother, so where can we find you? Where can we party with you?

There's stuff all over. Um,

literally all over.

Yeah, I have a book called Inquire Within. Um, that was put out by HarperOne a few years ago. I have a journal called The Never-Ending Now.

The Never-Ending Now is like, first of all, the title is eloquent.

Thank you.

Yeah. Like in all the ways. It's a good one.

Yeah. Thank you.

Yeah, for sure. And socials?

Yeah. Socials is Ian Q Life on all the socials. And then my website is ian-q.com. And, uh, yeah, I hope to, hope to see you out in the world and keep creating.

Yeah. And really, I'm going to say it clearly here, and we're going to figure out ways to partner in projects, is that if you're in a leadership position and you want to really change a room, call you.

Yeah. I love doing this for teams and companies.

It's awesome, man. Thank you.

Thank you, man.

Next time on Finding Mastery, we're joined by clinical psychologist, former president of the American Psychological Association, and bestselling author, Dr. Tamer Bryant. Why do we keep repeating the same mistakes in relationships? Dr. Tamer and Mike sit down to explore how to heal from past experiences, recognize the patterns holding us back, and build healthier, more authentic connections by first working on the relationship we have with ourselves. So join us Wednesday, October 14th at 9 AM Pacific, only on Finding Mastery.

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