Are You Truly In It For Better Or For Worse?

Hey, friends. Welcome to the Naked Marriage podcast. We're Dave and Ashley Willis. Continuing in our series on Back to the Basics. We're going back to those wedding vows that you and your spouse exchanged maybe a few months ago, maybe decades ago. Maybe you're preparing to exchange those vows with a fiance here in the, in the near future. Whatever season you're in, though, going back to the basics of what these vows really mean I think is huge. And so we're unpacking them one at a time. Last week it was to love and to cherish, and this week it is for better or for worse. And we've got a surprise at the end. I think for the rest of the series, we're gonna end these episodes with something cool. Our friends Kenny and Heidi, two of our marriage mediators who help couples who are going through all variety of struggles. They do a great job. At our staff Christmas party at exo, we got this present from them called let's get deep. And it's this card game. This isn't a commercial. These people don't sponsor the podcast. But we got and the cards are really cool. They're conversation starters and questions. So we're gonna ask each other one of these without telling the other what it is. So in real time, we're gonna get a deep question that we're gonna ask each other at the end of these episodes. And this might be a question you and your spouse could ask each other, Right? So it might spark some great conversation for you. But before we dive in, the love of my life here, who, if you're watching on YouTube, you see she's dressed as a beautiful ski bunny. She looks like she walked right out of a Hallmark movie. Like she is the. The female lead of a Hallmark movie going back to her quaint little snow covered hometown to find love.

I do love a little beanie hat.

You just look radiant.

Well, I went on a walk today and it was a little crisp and so I have on my Patagonia, you know, pull over with my beanie. But I'm glad you like it.

I'm gonna be distracted this whole time.

You're so silly. Before we jump in, I want to share one review because you guys are awesome. If you love this podcast, the best way to get out the word is to leave a review. Specifically on Apple Podcasts. Spotify doesn't let you do written reviews quite yet. So go to Apple Podcast, leave a review. All right, this one is five stars, says, be blessed beyond measure. And it's from One True Love 2911. It says thank you for all you do for God and this ministry, this podcast has helped me in so many ways. God is bringing healing and restoration into my life and my marriage. I even listen with my 18 and 20 year old in the car. I want them too to know that God's way is always best.

I love it.

I just love that.

Thank you. That encourages us and like Ashley said, it does help other people discover the podcast. And you, when you do something like that, you're partnering with us to spread the word. So thank you.

Yes.

All right, let's dive in. For better or for worse, sweetie. This is a, this is a big vow. And I think when you're standing there on the wedding day, most folks, they're only thinking of the for better part because everything looks perfect. You know, everybody's dressed perfectly. It's like, yes, this is our magical moment. We're never going to struggle, we're never going to have any hardship, but every couple experiences hardship.

It's true. And we were those wide eyed, bushy tailed, you know, we were very young, you know, when we got married. I was 20, you were 22. And now we've been married 22 years. But I remember on, you know, on that day just thinking, like, what could go wrong? And I think that, you know, you want to go into your marriage with hope and you want to go into your marriage thinking that good things are going to happen. But I think it's also, it's good to know that you're not alone and having struggles. And just because you and your spouse may have some struggles even right out of the gate, it doesn't mean you married the wrong person. I think it's just a testament to the world we live in. We live in a fallen world. We live in a world where sometimes we bring things on ourselves due to our own choices and habits, and other times things just happen to us. And I think when two people are coming together, we're also, we forget, you know, that we're not only the two of us, but we're bringing in our backgrounds, we're bringing in our families, we're bringing in our expectations that sometimes we have spoken, but many times we haven't spoken. And I know for us, a lot of those unspoken things kind of, I think, really surprised us and led maybe to some disagreements and frustrations that we just really had to work through. And thankfully we, you know, we did work through those. There were times we had to reach out for professional help. I mean, there was some stuff right out of the gate in our marriage, with family dynamics, we shared all and married into the family. We really had trouble with our. Some of our family relationships, and it just threw us for a loop. I mean, it really, really threw us for a loop. But we very quickly reached out for professional counseling because we were like, we don't know what we're doing. Like, we don't know. This is beyond our own capacity at the moment. And so we went to a counselor, and the counselor handed us the book Boundaries, which is still around Townsend and Cloud. You guys have heard us talk about this many times if you're avid listeners to the podcast. But it's still around, and it's really good. I mean, it's really good stuff. It's been updated, and this really helped us, like, meeting with that counselor and meeting and reading the book and going through, like, what boundaries need to be in place and just knowing, like, we can do this, like, there are tools that we can do to get through this hard season. It was very helpful. And there's been other things, you know, we've talked about, you know, just different struggles. We've gone through my anxiety and depression, your pornography stuff.

We've had health struggles, plenty of health struggles, Financial struggles.

A lot of financial struggles.

In the beginning, especially, is stressful. We have moved way more than most folks. Yeah, I mean, it's. Yeah, we've, we. We have. We've moved a lot.

And everyone has been very stressful.

Stressful. Gosh, yeah. I mean, we've got it good. I'm not complaining. I mean, we've got it good. It's not a competition.

More good than bad.

I think sometimes we're afraid to ever voice. Not us, but just in general, we're afraid to ever voice any struggle that we have because we think, well, somebody has it worse, and so it invalidates it because somebody, of course, has it worse. But we think that that invalidates our own experience or feeling. Well, I can't complain because, you know, somebody. Somebody else that I know has it worse. But that's. That's the wrong mindset. It's the same mindset that says, well, I can't be thankful because somebody might have it better. We need to embrace our experience right where we are, be thankful for the good, acknowledge the difficult, and. And really communicate about it. And I think communication is key for so many reasons, because there are going to be some times when maybe you feel like the marriage is in a good place, but your spouse is feeling like things are in a difficult place. You know, I had a kind of A funny story. A friend of mine, a friend of ours called me a few months ago because Ashley and I, a few years back, on our 20th anniversary, we went to Costa Rica, and this friend was wanting to take his family to Costa Rica for the first time. And so he was calling me kind of for some travel advice. And so he called and he was like, hey, I want to take my family. How was it? We started talking about it, and I was trying to give him tips, and I said, well, listen, you know, for flight deals, you could do this. And he immediately says, well, no, I don't need the flight deals because, you know, we're going to be taking our private plane. Our pilot is already, you know, has all that worked out. I said, okay, no problem. Well, for food, there's this great hole in the wall place here. And he said, well, actually, for food, we're going to be taking our own personal chef. They're preparing all of our meals for us. And I was like, oh, right, no problem. Well, you know, the guides are great because, you know, they, they. They know English. And he's like, well, you know, Spanish is my first language, so, you know.

I don't need a guy.

And, and pretty quickly, I realized we were talking about the same place, but we were talking about two completely different experiences in the same place.

Give him some ideas. I did.

Yeah, I gave some ideas.

Excursions like that.

I just thought, yeah, we're. We're talking about two totally different experiences here.

Yeah.

And I think sometimes in marriage, you and your spouse can be in the same place, but you can be having two completely different experiences for a number of reasons. And so you can't assume that, you know what's going on with your spouse. You can't assume that just because things feel good to you that they feel equally good to your spouse. They might be going through struggles that they're not voicing. They might be feeling a disconnection from you. And so you have to constantly stay connected. Don't make assumptions, and make sure that you're. You're in the same place, not only physically, but emotionally, spiritually, that you're. You're staying tuned into each other.

Exactly. Because. And that's the thing. I think staying tuned in is so, you know, important. We talk a lot about getting on the same page, and I think that sometimes people feel doomed if they're not exactly on the same page at the same time. And I would say you need to expect that there will be moments where one of you is a little ahead of the other. Spiritually even in your jobs financially, that can cause a little rub there when you're, you know, one significantly earning more than the other, and you're like, you know. And I think that, you know, there can be emotionally, like, you know, I know when I was going through my anxiety and depression, I had kind of regressed emotionally, like, because I was dealing. It was kind of stunted, you know, because I was dealing with my own kind of stuff. And so. But I think the main thing is you may not be exactly in the same place in all these areas, but when you come together and say, I may not completely understand what you're going through right now, but I'm on the same page as far as our marriage being a priority and being something that we are, you know, we're both on the same page is like, yes, we're going to fight for each other. We're not going to just let the things that happen in life kind of throw us to and fro. Like, we're going to make sure we're in this together. And I know. I mean, we've certainly had that, like, when you've gone through your health struggles. I didn't go through the same health struggles. Like, my thyroid, thank goodness, is working just fine, thank God. But. But it's like. And I don't even understand all the ins and outs of that. I don't have a medical history, but I did my part as your wife to try to understand. And then, like, both of us would look for solutions, like, what can we do? Like, what are some things we can do? We talk to people who also have, you know, thyroid issues. And then, of course, got great medical help. And I think just praying through that, too, like, always coming back together. Because the hard part about all this, especially for those of you who are engaged or maybe you're newlyweds, is that we just really dread, like human beings. We dread the hard. Like, we don't want to go through the worst. We're like, no, no, no, it's just going to be better and better and better. And, you know, the truth of the matter is, you know, Jesus himself said, in this world, you will have trouble. And then Jesus says, but take heart, I have overcome the world. Meaning, like, you're going to go through hard stuff 100%, you're going to go through it. It's going to look different for every person. But it's going to be hard. You're going to have hard moments. But he also tells us you're not going to go through it alone, because Jesus has overcome everything. So we're never going to go through it alone. And he is with us in it. And as married Christians, we need to be in whatever trouble we're going through, whoever's experiencing it, because sometimes it is just one individual that is really going through the loss or the trauma or whatever it is, but we're still in it together as married people where we've made a covenant to be there through the good, the bad and the ugly. And what's so crazy about it, And I promise you, and those of you who've been married a long time, you know this. What's so crazy about going through those hard times is if you choose to face them together and you fully surrender them to the Lord, you actually end up experiencing the better on the other side. Like, not because the situation's necessarily cleared up and you can even experience the better in the midst of it, because there's a closeness. Like, there's this, there's this grit that you gain from it. There's this intimacy you gain from it. In walking through that season, even if you hated it, I mean, there's seasons. I'm like, I do not want to live through that again. Like, I don't want to go through my four year depression and anxiety bout again. Like, I, it was horrible. You know, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. But I'm not scared if it does happen. I know that we're going to get through it because we've gone through hard stuff.

Yeah, we'll get through it. You know, we live in a military community. We have so much respect for our military families everywhere that we go. We really just really do. So shout out to all you guys, thank you for your service. But there is a saying you military families are very familiar with in the military. They say, embrace the suck.

Embrace the suck.

And it's referring to the difficult parts of the journey. The deployment, the training, all those moments where it's just difficult and you can't wish it away. You have to just embrace the moment. Like, this is where we are right now.

I don't love it.

I don't love it. You don't love it. We're going to face it together. And you know what? We're going to be stronger because we walk through this together. Marriage. You know, for, for lack of a better phrase, sometimes you have to embrace the suck. Sometimes you don't go out trying to cause issues, but you know that struggles will come. And when they come, the Bible says, you know, like Ashley said, hardships will come. The Book of James says, those hardships will actually produce strength and faith within us if we. If we face them the right way. And facing them the right way means not growing bitter. It means not growing isolated. Leaning on God, leaning on each other, Working together for solutions. But even while you're waiting to embrace the season you're in and look for the good right where you are, don't feel like life won't start until we get through this. Now there's going to be so much good. There are so many difficult seasons we've walked through. But looking back, there were so many good things happening in the midst of those struggles. Then later growth came because of those struggles. But even while we were struggling, we can see now God was doing so many really good things and sweet things even then. So don't miss out on those things. Every season has its. Has struggles. Every season has blessings.

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Now it's going to tilt sometimes. Sometimes it's going to feel like a lot more blessing than struggles. Other times it's going to feel like a lot more struggle than blessings. But every season has both. And so always be thankful for what's the good that's happening. And always lean on each other and trust God for the difficult that's happening. And. And you're going to get through it.

You will. You know, this may be tmi, but you guys know that we are full on. We might as well call this the TMI Marriage podcast.

Too much information with Dave and Ashley.

More. Sorry, more than you want to know. And. But I want to say this in real time. If you guys have been listening in real time, you know that I just had a hysterectomy now about three weeks ago, end of the couple days. Okay. And I've really. I've had a really good recovery. And I had the robotic version of the hysterectomy, which is, you know, less invasive. So you usually have a faster recovery. But because it is robotic. You know where I'm going with this?

No.

Okay. Because it is robotic. My doctor has been very, very adamant that we cannot have intercourse for three months. Okay.

Yeah.

And he is. Every time I've had an appointment with him, he just harps on this thing. And I'm like, do you listen to our podcast, Doctor? Because you're really telling this more than probably the average patient. But make sure he's like, please. You know, and it's to protect. You know, it's for better recovery in the long run. And he's like, and I've been doing this a long time, and this is like, I know it's not a great thing, but, like. And I know other people, even hysterectomy or not, have had to maybe have moments like that.

Yeah. Seasons of.

And this was something we were really dreading. But we knew going into it, we talked about this, we're like, we're just going to have to be creative. You know, we're going to still be intimate, but in a creative way. And I feel like it's kind of. It's been kind of. We're still very close.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

We've not dreaded it. It's been kind of funny at times, but it's been really, like, sweet. And I think that just, like, when you were going through your testosterone.

But I'm. I'm still counting down.

Well, no, we're counting down, but I'm saying, like, my point here is that you can kind of grow in other ways.

Yeah, absolutely.

And connect in other ways. And it's. I feel like it reminds me of the time years ago when you went through your testosterone issues and your libido was plummeted, but we had to take things slower and we had to be creative. And it was like. It kind of brings you back to just like, I don't know, it's more about just being. Being in the here and now and finding ways to connect, you know?

Yeah.

And I think that maybe. Maybe you don't have a doctor telling you you can't actually have sexual intercourse for a certain amount of time. But I think it could be a lot of things. Like, maybe you're apart for a long time because of a job, you know, move. Or maybe you're military and somebody's on a deployment. I mean, it could be a lot of different things, but I think that finding ways in times when you're like, I don't love this. I don't love that. I can't, you know, have intercourse for a lengthy time. But, like, I'm gonna not let that be an excuse to grow apart. I'm gonna really be even. I mean, we've had. We've tried to be really super intentional to not do that, and we've really, like, you know, we check in a lot anyway, but we. I think we've been checking in even more. Like, how are you feeling? And, you know, just all those things, like, trying to make sure we're serving one another. And so that's probably tmi, but I'm just sharing in real time. Like, this was something we were kind of like. We were excited about the hysterectomy because I needed to have it.

Yeah. And your. Your quality of life's going to be better.

Way better.

Really. You know, sex life will be.

And then you'll never have. I'll never have period again. It's gonna be awesome.

But in the meantime, there's this season of kind of waiting on that and healing. And healing.

I can't.

There's a season.

I'm not totally, 100% yet.

And so you gotta embrace the season you're in.

Right.

Good stuff, guys. Hey. We're gonna continue these conversations before we. We jump off this episode. As promised, we're gonna get deep. We're gonna ask each other one of these questions.

Again, it's. Let's get deep.

Yeah.

A couple's questions for couples.

And thank you, Kenny and Heidi, for the gift. Kenny and Heidi, again, this is not a commercial. We don't know who. Who even produces this game.

But mine's kind of serious. You have to pick the top one.

All right.

We said we didn't know. I mean, this one's a little bit.

All right, well, this one kind of relates to what we've been talking about. Yeah, mine.

Oh, my gosh. Well, you want to do.

You go ahead. You go ahead.

And these will be quick, too. So we'll. We'll try to be quick, even though this one is not. Like, we have whole episodes on this, but, sweetie, it's. What do you consider cheating?

Oh, yeah, that's.

Some of these are fun questions, and some of these are, like, that's heavy dumb. So. Yeah.

Okay. So the word infidelity. We've talked about this. It doesn't mean sexual affair. It means.

I mean, that's part of it.

It means broken fidelity. Broken trust is all that it means. And so really, any form of breaking trust in your marriage, any form of secrecy is a form of. Of breaking the vows, breaking the covenant. Now, there are certain, like, you know, different levels of that. Like, you know, hiding an Amazon purchase versus having a sexual affair, obviously, or, like, in two different universes. But I think really, any form of secrecy opens the door to. To broken intimacy. Broken fidelity.

And so, like, emotional.

Right? Yeah, just insects just keeping secrets, hiding anything. It might not even be relationship. It could be financial. It could be just actively trying to deceive your spouse in some way I think would be form of cheating.

Totally agree.

All right, your question. What's something you're glad is in the past?

Oh, my goodness. Why?

And so like something for better, for worse. What's one of those maybe worse things that, you know, maybe we grew through it and all, but you're really glad that it's over.

Oh, my gosh. You know, honestly, I would say we've mentioned this, but we really, really had, you know, kind of our own doing, but a lot of financial stress. Yeah. In the beginning of our marriage, I mean, I was still at college. College.

We were broke. Debt.

Yeah. Like being in debt. I think honestly, that we never want to go back there. Like that was something where we just felt like a slave to the, The. The debts that we owed. And I literally drive a 22 year.

Old car right now.

It's as old as our marriage.

I mean, and it's because I just don't want to car pay.

You go Toyota Avalon.

And every day that car starts, I feel like I'm winning it life. One more day, baby. One more day of this paid off beauty.

And in our old van that we just replaced the engine last year because we're still driving.

Yeah. So we're not driving fancy vehicles. But you know what? We. It's. I feel freedom when I'm driving around in a paid off vehicle.

Right.

Because we used to have just debt. You know, we had credit card debt. We had. And it's exhausting.

I will never. I want to share this really quick. So, like, I remember one year, and this is probably the first four years of marriage. I don't even know. Well, maybe the three years we. I don't even know if we had Cooper yet. But we were like, you know, I'm tired of driving all cars. Let's just go lease a new car. Let's get a good. And they had a good deal going.

We went, oh, they always have a good deal.

Oh, I know, I know. It smelled good. And we were like, oh, we're so tickled. We got a Toyota Camry. We were like, oh. And anyway, we just, you know, went. We went, drove it back home. We lived from where we. The church where we were serving, where Dave was also on staff was like 30 to 40 minutes from where we lived. And we, you know, reading the fine print, realized about the mileage thing with leasing.

Oh, yeah.

And as we were doing. Oh, and I was also in a. My.

We were driving a lot.

I was doing my, my teaching master's program at the time. And I had to drive another 30 minutes the other direction. So we had a lot of driving and, and we were doing the math and we were like, we're. We're going to end up owing, like having fees because.

Yeah. All the mileage over just. We realized we don't own this car. This car owns us.

Exactly. So what do we do, sweetie?

We took it back. We took it back. There's like a 48 hour grace period. They don't tell you about Kentucky.

At least I don't know if they do.

They don't tell you about. So we took that thing back and we're like, man, we cannot afford this.

No questions asked.

And that salesman who'd been so nice when we were buying it, he was not nearly so nice, but they took it back as they had to do. And I felt so much freedom we did going and just kind of getting a clunker instead that we could afford.

Yeah.

So, guys, this isn't even a richer poor episode. We'll get to more of this later. We were talking about that, but it's. Yeah, it's. Yeah, that is a regret. But we learned and, and we're moving forward. So, guys, it's always keep learning and growing. There's no reason to beat yourself up for the past. But always learn and keep moving forward and try to not repeat the mistakes of the past because some of the hardships we face are unnecessary and self inflicted and we're trying to avoid those as we go.

Yes.

Guys. Hey, thanks so much for tuning in. We were so enjoying this series. We're enjoying the speaking season we're in right now. This coming weekend, we're going to be at Church of the Highlands in Alabama, live at Grants Mill, and broadcasting live to all of the campuses throughout Alabama. And we're just, we're honored. We love, we love Church of the Highlands. Guys. Can't wait to see you. We got more Exo tour stops coming up this spring. You can go to xomarriage.com to get the full schedule there and we will see you next week as we continue going back to the basics of marriage. Sam.