Building Trust and Protecting Your Marriage

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Find your next ride@autotrader.com powered by Auto Intelligence. Hey, friends, welcome to the Naked Marriage podcast. Dave and Ashley here. So glad you stopped by. And it's gonna be a good day. The day started out, I had Chick Fil a breakfast, and I feel like God blesses any day that starts with Christian chicken. It just. It's a good way to start the day. But I also had the thought that, sweetie, we are almost exactly 25 years. 25 years ago from the first day we met.

Oh, yes, that's true.

And I was just thinking about that because it was your very first day of college. College. And. Yeah. And that was like, right around this time, 25 years ago. So here's to a quarter century of you just rocking my world. That's right.

Delicious beverages.

Yeah. And if you're watching on YouTube, got our exopressed brew.

If you're telling what you're drinking, I'm.

Drinking an Americano with little oat milk, and it's actually almond milk. They were out of oat stevia.

I have something really fun. This is a London Fog, which. Do you know what London Fog is?

I don't. It used to be a brand of coats.

I think it still is. I think they're good coats, but a London Fog, according to Noah, an awesome barista at Exopress, he said it is tea with lavender and almond milk and a little bit of vanilla.

That is super fancy. Yes, you are bougie. I like it.

It is very good.

Hey, if you're ever in South Lake, Texas, the marriage capital of the world, come by our Exo Marriage Headquarters at 1021 Grace Lane, South Lake, Texas. It is an amazing facility, and it's got this great coffee shop. And this is where we record many podcasts and many different things, and a lot of good stuff happens here. So stop by anytime. We would love to have you. And. Yeah, it's been a good day. It's gonna be a good day.

That's right.

And even though we're talking about a.

Heavy, we've got something hard. I was gonna say, this is a difficult topic.

Yeah. It's starting off light. Because it's gonna get heavy. Right? And you probably already saw that just from the title of this. We're talking about infidelity.

And I'm sorry, but you said heavy like three times. And I don't know why, but I recently rewatched Back to the Future and that was the slang. He'd be like, ooh, that's heavy. Do you remember this?

And Doc would be like, why do you keep saying heavy? Is the gravitational pull greater in your time?

Anyway, this is heavy.

Great movie. This is the first movie I remember seeing at the theater.

Really?

It came out in 1985.

Yes.

I would have been like six or seven. And it's the first. I don't think it was my first time at the theater, but it's the first one I remember because it really. It just captured my imagination.

Well, and they go on your birthday somewhere, they put October 26th. Do you remember this?

Yeah, October 26th, which is my birthday.

That's right, yeah.

And they go to October 26, 1955. So they go to my birthday, but way before I was born.

Yeah, but that's so fun.

Great, great trilogy, but maybe the best. I even watched Michael J. Fox documentary on Apple.

Yes. So good. Still, it was really good.

It was great about his story. He's got Parkinson's and he's been through a lot. Fascinating actor, cool guy. But yeah, Marty McFly, such an iconic role.

Yes. But we are gonna take a note from him and say, this is heavy today.

This is heavy.

Yeah, this is heavy.

So, yeah, we're starting off light because we're getting ready to jump into the deep end, but let's just jump in. So one of the greatest red flags. One of the most horrific things that can happen in a marriage is infidelity. And we want to talk about ways to prevent infidelity. What to do once infidelity has happened. Warning signs to recognize that you might be or your spouse might be on a path towards infidelity. And we're just going to talk about all of it because it is our desire to help you. To help, first off, prevent it from ever happening if it has not happened. And if it has happened and you're living in the aftermath of it, we want to help you piece things back together. So Ashley, she does some one on one counseling. She's a very gifted counselor. And quite a few of the folks that have met with her have been in the aftermath of infidelity. Either the one who did the cheating, the one who was cheated on, or the couple together meeting and you said something that just really stuck with me. You said, if people could see the aftermath of infidelity, nobody would ever do it.

They would never do it.

You would never do it. Just the tears and the heartbreak, the regret. The regret. And most of the time, these folks would give absolutely anything to go back and undo what they did. Yes. And so, guys, if you're ever tempted and it hasn't happened, but you're tempted, just remember that there is absolutely no temporary pleasure that's worth that permanent regret.

No, there's just no good that will come from it. Now, this isn't to say that God can't redeem, you know, what happened here, and God forgives and God can heal, but, you know, it's. It's just. It's a really catastrophic thing that can happen to your marriage. And I just. I really believe that, like, if you could sit in the room with me and hear people's stories, and they would say the same thing. They would say, like, you would never do it if you would just hear my story. And this is on both sides of it. I mean, I think definitely on the side of the one who did the cheating, but also those who've been cheated on. I mean, it's just such a deep wound. You know, if you want to go back and hear from a dear couple, some couple friends of ours who actually went through infidelity, they sort of courageously shared their story, and because they want God to be able to use it for good, but they went through infidelity. And you can look back at some of our episodes. I can't remember what it's called, but we can try to put it in the show notes. But it's our friends, the Pittmans, who share very openly about their own story with this, and they've helped so many people in sharing their story. But they would be the first to tell you, like, this isn't easy. We wish this wasn't part of our story, but it is. And so we just. We truly believe that God can even take our worst moments. And if we're willing, he can help us to forgive and trust again and use it for good. And over time, that has happened for them. But it was not an easy road. And so, you know, kind of out of the gate, just starting with, well, what are some ways that we can be unfaithful? Because I think automatically when we think about infidelity, we just think about our, you know, us or our spouse having sex with someone who we're not married to. You know, I mean, Just which is obvious, the most obvious definition of what infidelity is. But really, there's other ways that we can be unfaithful and. And then eventually it can often lead to actually stepping outside of the marriage and sleeping with someone else. But I think that it starts with fantasizing. I mean, it starts with here, you know, just in our minds and just thinking that we married the wrong person. We'd have such a better life if we were with this other person. We start, you know, looking at other people's highlight reels on social media and what they post and, oh, my gosh, if he was my husband, I would never deal with the stuff that I deal with. And if he was my husband, my life would just look totally different. And I would have this and this and this. If she was my wife, I wouldn't have to put up with this stuff, and I'd be treated so much better. You know what I'm saying? We just start these fantasies, and sometimes it's with old flames, someone you actually did have a relationship with. And so you have a little bit of a framework of what that's like. But then you take it into this fantasy of what that married life with that person would look like. That's often what happens.

It starts with that real person from a long time ago, but they're not even that same person.

They're not. None of us are.

And we're not the same person now. And that relationship ended for a reason then. And now you're creating this fantasy of a false version of them, a false version of yourself and a false version of reality and willing to throw away everything good that you have to just reconnect, maybe just to feel something or. Because if you're in a dry spell in your own marriage, instead of really working to rebuild that, it can seem easier perhaps to just say, well, I could start over with somebody new or reconnect with somebody from the past. And it never. Guys, it just never, ever ends well, ever. We have sat down with so many people through the years. People that are our friends, people from our home, church, and just watch them try to rebuild the pieces in the aftermath. Whether their marriage survived and then they had to do the long, hard work of repairing, or if ultimately their marriage ended as a result of that infidelity. There's no easy road. No, it's going to be hard either way. So you've got to decide, do I want the hard choice of rebuilding the marriage, or do I want the hard choice of starting over? Divorced, and especially with kids Involved. I mean, it's just. It's absolutely devastating. I think there's so many examples, real life examples we could use. Usually I won't use real names, but since these folks have been on the podcast and shared their story, this is a real name. Travis and Josie Pittman were interviewed here on the Naked Marriage podcast. They're dear friends of ours from our home church in Augusta, Georgia, and we did an episode with them. That episode's actually called How Affairs Happen. Yes, if you want to look it up. Even though really, that maybe not the best title, because really what the conversation is mostly about is how to rebuild after an affair. They share some about how the affair happened, but most of that conversation is, this is what we did afterwards. And it was so helpful. They were raw and honest with their emotion. He had an affair with a woman at his work, and it, you know, once Josie, his wife, found out about it, it just. You know, there was a lot of. A lot of wreckage, a lot of rebuilt trust. Then it was complicated because he still worked there. And even though he was trying to avoid her, there was still some proximity, which obviously made his wife very uncomfortable. Of course, he got to the point where he was willing to leave his job kind of into that whole career just for the sake of this. And I think ultimately that that woman got transferred to a different part, and it worked out. But I'm saying you've got to be willing to do whatever. You got to be willing, I think, to leave your job, to move, to relocate, to whatever it's going to take to give your marriage the fresh start after an affair happens. Because it's going to take everything you've got.

It will. You know, we interviewed another couple, and they have a great book about this, I believe, and I get this title mixed up. Do you remember the title? The couple from South Carolina, from the Charleston area that we had? I think it's like, oh, goodness, same couple, different marriage. Or something to that effect.

Yeah, same couple, new marriage.

I think same couple, new marriage. It's really good. And I think it's Josh, and this is terrible. He just commented on something, and I was like, man, what are their names? Anyway? You can look that up, and they have a great story, but this was actually the wife who had an affair, and this was with a friend, and they go into the details, so I'm not gonna go over all the details, but it happened very innocently. They were friends with these people, like couple friends doing life together.

And you let your guard down.

Let your guard down.

You feel Connection.

Exactly. And she said she just found herself fantasizing about a life with this guy because they, as couples, would do things, but she said, you know, oftentimes it would be. She would end up talking to the other husband. And she said, and it was in a really vulnerable state where they're in the middle of having children and emotions are high. And she said she just all out wanted to leave her marriage. I mean, she was, like, determined to leave her husband and marry this other man. And then, of course, she. You know, and she's. You know, they're Christians at this time, too. And she said, you know, there was a huge part of me that knew this was wrong, but I also. Part of me felt like, but I'll be so much happier, like, I should be with this guy. You know, all those lies that we believe. And there came a point where she felt like she had to address it with her husband, and she did. And as you can imagine, it was a. A big bomb in their marriage. But it was kind of one of those things where she felt like from their perspective, they felt like it brought attention to a lot of things that had been going wrong in their marriage that needed to be tended to. But I remember one of the things that the husband said was they ended up moving. They had to move because they were too close to these people. And it was in a small town at the time. It wasn't in Charleston at the time. And they had to get away. You know, they were like, we need to have new jobs. We can't work alongside these people or do life alongside them, because if we're gonna stand any chance of making it, we have to have a fresh start. And then, even after they moved, there were items that she said that were triggering to her, but even triggering to him, too. Like a headband that she would wear because she knew this guy thought she was really pretty in this headband, or, you know, I mean, like, little things like that. And I remember Josh saying that they literally had a fire pit where they threw this stuff and, like, burned it. In essence, he said it was, like, satisfying the sense of, like, we're burning all those old things. We are moving away from this. Exactly.

We're starting again.

And she was willing to allow that to happen because she's like, if that's gonna make you feel better and be, like, a symbol of leaving the past behind and charting this new course for ourselves, then so be it. You know, that's a small way to really help him feel empowered, I guess, because he felt so, you know he didn't know this was happening. And it was right under his nose too. And one thing that people don't talk about a lot is those who have been cheated on, they're shame. They feel shame. Like, even though there's the person who cheated that starts to feel shame because they're like, how could I do this? What I found, and this is through working with couples over the years and in the counseling space. The person who is cheated on feels ashamed because they feel like a fool. Like, how could I miss this? How did I not know? How could I stay within that long and be treated like this and not even know what's happening in my own house or in my own community?

And it makes you question everything. What can I trust? What is real? This person I trusted the most could do this right under my nose. Then what else? Even if.

What else are you not telling me?

I felt that way even with friends who have done it. I worked in close proximity with the guy for many years who was carrying on a long term affair.

It was devastating.

With another, with a woman that I.

Knew, another co worker.

This was happening over the course of years. And I'm like, right next to these people, I'm with them all the time.

More than even work, we're talking doing life with these people, going on trips, you know, to different conferences. And I mean, you're just thinking like, how did I not see it?

Right? And so it causes you to step back and say, man, what? I, I thought that I knew these people and for this to be able to happen right under my nose, like, man, what else is going on? So I cannot imagine how much that would be amplified when it is your spouse, you're the one being cheated on. Because I felt like an idiot just with friends doing this around me that I was unaware of. So yeah, there is, it's a strange mixture of emotions. But the bottom line is if you've been cheated on, you've got to know you did nothing to deserve this or cause this. I'm not saying that you're perfect. I'm not saying that there aren't things you could do to be a better spouse. All of us could do things to be a better spouse.

Absolutely.

But you did. That is the other person's sin. And so you can't beat yourself up saying, I caused this, I led them.

To this, or I'm a fool. I hear that a lot.

Like for believing them or for missing this. Like, no, you've been wounded, you've been victimized and you need to Take time to just allow yourself to heal from really being wounded by someone else's sin, because sin always harms people who weren't involved. Score the perfect gift at Dick's Sporting Goods. Start your wish list with top picks from Nike, Jordan, FP Movement, and more. Shop trending shoes, golf gear, water bottles, and more of this year's hottest gifts. Need it fast? Stop by your local store or use the Dick's app for quick pickup or delivery. Visit dicksportinggoods.com to shop this year's best holiday gifts at Dick's. That's the way sin works, even if you did nothing to cause it. There are so many people that get wounded by sin, especially sexual sin and an affair. It hurts spouses, it hurts children, it hurts friends, it hurts greater community. The ripple effect is crazy. I mean, we first started ministry, two people, our lead pastor and female worship leader, both married people, had an affair with each other, and the whole devastating just imploded. And that was 20 years ago. And I still see ripple effects of that sin 20 years ago in terms of people who left church and never come back, people whose faith was permanently wounded. Damage within the families that were involved. And God can redeem and God can forgive, and I'm so thankful for that. But sin, this kind of sin is costly. And that's why the Bible gives so much warning, specifically against infidelity, against adultery. Because like we've said, infidelity doesn't just mean sexual adultery. The word infidelity just means broken fidelity, broken trust. And you can have infidelity in all different kinds of ways. You can break your spouse's trust in all different kinds of ways. But we usually use that term to mean specifically a sexual affair within marriage, which is the ultimate betrayal. But just know, if you haven't done it, don't. I promise, it's not worth it grabbing that forbidden fruit. Satan's been using the same tricks, the same bait since the dawn of time, getting you to think that if you would just eat from this tree, if you would just take this, then you'd be satisfied, then you'd have everything that you wanted. And it's just simply not the case. It's a counterfeit. And once the initial rush wears off or whatever you're feeling initially wears off, you're gonna be left with devastation and a huge mess to clean up.

It's the truth. And I know you guys are like, man, Dave and Ashley are coming down really hard on this. I mean, we told y' all to be heavy right out of the Gate it is, but I think it's important. And you know, just to reiterate too, with infidelity, I mean, part of our story was, you know, with your porn addiction.

Right. Which is a form of infidelity. I mean, Jesus said to look with lust is to commit adultery in the heart. I had a hidden porn sin, came out early in the marriage. We've talked a lot about that. But that, that issue, me falling into that was a form of sexual sin. Even though another physical person was not involved, I was sinning sexually by gratifying lustful desires with those images and keeping that as a secret added a layer of pain to that sin. And it created a wound in our trust that we had to work to rebuild. And porn is so widespread, so many people use it as entertainment. They use it instructionally, like, well, I'm just seeing how to do new stuff or whatever. It is toxic. It is a form of infidelity. And it always leads. If it's not brought into check, it always leads to even greater sexual sin. The next iteration is now stuff like OnlyFans, where just watching isn't enough. You have to now watch with the interaction with the real person and you're creating a bond with this real person on the other side of the screen, using them as your private prostitute, essentially. And I've had people write us, I've had a good friend reach out whose marriage was nearly wrecked, you know, when his wife found out that he was on a site like this and spending a lot of money, spending a lot of time.

It always involves a lot of money and maybe even some blackmail.

Yeah. Yeah. It is amazing. We've heard many stories world out there.

Yeah.

And so if you're drawn to that guy's, get out, get out now. There is nothing good that's gonna come from it. And then you know, that's gonna lead to even more. Eventually, just looking at a person on a screen enough, you're gonna eventually connect in real life with somebody else and it just continues. Sexual sin is never satisfied. You're never gonna reach that point where you're like, this is enough. And eventually you're gonna need more, more of the drug, like any drug to get the same high. Right. And you gotta just get sober from it. You've gotta get away from it. And as, as a guy that's now been porn free for a long time, I can tell you my life, my mind, and certainly my marriage is so much better on the other side of it. Because when I was in it, I hated myself. I hated the sin. But yet I just. The Bible uses this vivid imagery, says, like a dog returns to its vomit. So a fool repeats his folly or his sin, just like a dog puking and then going to lick it up. Even though they know, like, that's disgusting, but they're drawn back to it. I. I was drawn back to that same puke. And it's gross, and I knew it, and I hated myself for it. But it's like, I didn't know how to just stay away because I wasn't doing what God says to do, which is, to be honest, to get accountability, to confess it. I was trying to deal with it on my own, which is never the answer. So once it did come out, it put us on a path of rebuilding trust. I was still. It was so deeply embedded in my brain, I wasn't able to just quick cold turkey. I actually had one or two relapses, which reopened the wound, which hit reset on the rebuilding trust process. But Ashley was so faithful where I was not to come alongside me with high expectations that she should have, that I would get accountability, get software in place. There's no place for that in our marriage. But she also, even though she was wounded by my sin, showed a lot of grace. And I'm so thankful we walked through that together and that it didn't lead to more. I'm glad that even though that sin in itself was so painful, I'm also thankful that it came to light and we were able to deal with it before it led deeper down a road that could have potentially led to even greater sin that would have caused even greater pain. So thank you for your grace there.

Well, thank you for doing the work to be free. And I want to say this too. You know, whenever there is any kind of infidelity and just even from the porn standpoint, there's so many women that I have worked with over the years and talked to, whether friends or, you know, people we've actually counseled, and they will tell us. They'll say, you know, I just. I'm just so disgusted by it and feel so insecure now because I'm like, why was he looking at that? Is it because I'm hideous? Is it because I'm not, you know, beautiful enough? I'm not skinny enough, I'm not voluptuous enough, whatever it is, you know, that I'll never be enough for him? You know, there's that piece going on in their mind, so that makes them very. You know, when you're insecure, you're not really Feeling like having sex with your husband. Right? And then there's the trust piece where they're like, well, I don't really trust him. Like, did he look at it today? Is he eyeballing the pretty neighbor? Like, what's going on? And then, you know, there's. There's this hyper vigilance that often happens with people, especially when it comes to any kind of sexual sin, when their spouse has been unfaithful in that way. And I'm telling you, you know, those of you who've maybe been the cheater, I just want you to know that if your spouse is hypervigilant, it's not because they want to be. Like, they don't want to be an investigator. They don't want to have to look at your phone. They don't want to have to look at your eyes and where they're going. They don't want to have to go search your computer history and see if you've been you chatting with an old flame. They don't want to be an investigator. Like, they didn't sign up to be your spouse to become a private eye too. Like, that's not what we want to do. But I want to bring you into that picture because that is so common where we feel like, you know, I remember in those days of when I found the porn, there was this urge of like, you know, yes, we have filtering software, which we got very quickly, but it's like, do I need to just check? Like, oh, he really lingered looking at the phone this day. I probably should go check on that, or, you know what I'm saying? And I had access because you gave that to me.

Yeah. Which everybody should have.

Absolutely. Whether or not this has been an issue, but there's a lot of couples where they're not accustomed to that. And, you know, so if there's anything that can even appear as secrecy, you are just dumping out tons of trust in the trust bucket. You know, Jimmy Evans has said many times we've shared this with you guys on here. He says, trust is built in drops, but it's lost in buckets. And so anytime there's sexual sin, you know, it's just a big empty trust bucket. You know, it's been poured out all at once. And so whoever cheated has to work extra hard to be beyond reproach and maybe do things that seem silly, like by just having an all access pass to your spouse and not feeling weird if they pick up the phone and start going through it, you know, But I just want to. I wanted to share this piece about the investigator thing because that is a thing that I see time and time again. And so for the person who cheated, just realize they don't want to be in this position, they don't want to have to do this, but they feel this way because they have that question that Dave was talking about earlier, that question of, well, what else are they keeping from me? What else is up their sleeve? What else am I gonna find? Like, when's the next shoe gonna drop? Is it money? They're hiding too? Like, maybe they've been paying for prostitutes, maybe they've been paying for onlyfans. Like, what is it? Like, do they have a secret account? Do they have a secret phone? Are they, you know, maybe they have the software on this phone, but they have another secret phone where they're actually looking at porn and they're getting with people. And I mean, it just goes on and on and on. And I remember I was having a conversation with recently and it was, she just said, like, I am exhausted by just the thoughts, the constant thoughts of the what ifs and the, you know, am I a fool for staying? Am I just staying only to get hurt again? And I just want to say, if that's you, if you're listening and watching this right now, it's understandable that you feel that way. It's totally understandable that you feel that way. But I want to say this. If you know your spouse has come to you and has repented, they've gone to God first, obviously, and then come to you and they've been honest and they've said, I'm so sorry this is what happened and they are remorseful and they have repented and then they've taken that next step to get help. Whether it's a therapist, a support group, you know, getting the software, I mean it's gonna be multi pronged. Like they're doing the work, they're going and getting help. You know, they're going to celebrate recovery and meeting with a porn recovery group or a group where you're recovering from an affair, whatever it is, like they are doing those steps and they're being honest with you. Like if they are doing all to gradually and it's a process, it's a slow process to gradually regain your trust, then I would just encourage you to focus on those things. You still need to have all access and still make sure that there's, you know, there's total, you know, transparency. And I love how our friends said they, they, they coined the term radical honesty. You Know, it has to be a radical honesty where nothing is held back. If, if your spouse is doing all those things, then I would say in those really hard moments where you feel like being an investigator again and not because you have reason. Like, if you have a reason where your spouse was being real shady about a conversation or they keep on taking their phone to the bathroom with them and being weird, like, I mean, obviously you have a reason to go investigate, but if it's just because a thought popped in your head when you have that low thought, I would just encourage you to say a prayer and to say, God, help me to focus on the evidence that I can see and then the evidence I can't see, knowing that you do the rest of that work because there is a piece here where you're not going to see all the evidence. Like, you're just not. Like, there's going to be physical evidence and actions taken where you can see their actions are lining up with their words. I'm going to, little by little take baby steps to hopefully trust them again. But there's that small part of you that isn't gonna see all the evidence. And that part of you has to trust God. That part of you has to trust God. And I remember having those doubts. I remember especially, like with a relapse, it was like, oh my gosh, here we are again. Is this just gonna keep on happening?

Yeah. And I remember hating myself even more when that happened and knowing the pain that that had caused, the amplified pain from, like, now that this has happened.

You'Ve built up some trust, right?

Yeah. And so it is, it is a journey to rebuild that trust. And I'm so thankful that you stuck it out with me that you gave me the opportunity to kind of keep filling that bucket up. And now, years later, to not only be porn free, but to be able to share our story in a way that helps others. Had you just chosen to say, you know what? I just can't trust you and we need to go our different ways or I can't trust you and we'll stay together, but we're just going to, we're not going to have the relationship we could have. Life could have looked very different. But you're the hero of that story, you and Jesus. And because of that, we're able to now do marriage ministry. Use our stories as a way to help bring hope to others. And we say that to you guys who are listening and watching because you might think, well, we've already blown it. I've blown it. I've Done too much, done these things. But God can forgive anything, and he doesn't waste anything, even our own sin. He will work together for good if we put it in his hands and say, God, I want to learn from that. I want to turn from that. And I want my story to be used to give hope to others like Travis and Josie, who we've talked about already, because they had the courage to share about their journey, even though they would do anything. He would do anything to go back and undo it. But you can't do that. But what you can do is work as hard as you can to rebuild your spouse's trust, to fight for your family, to be the spouse you should have been all along. And then when you're ready, share your story as a way to help others, as a way to caution others. And they've had so many people reach out to them. They shared their contact info through that episode. People from all over the world have reached out to them, thanked them, asked them for help, asked them for prayer, asked them for advice. So God uses everything. I mean, I was so ashamed of that porn issue early on, and I thought, well, we got through it, but I never want to talk about it again. But God had a different plan now, from behind microphones and some huge stages, we've had to share very openly, in embarrassing detail, for me, at least, that sin. I've had to give my porn testimony with my mother in the front row. That's an awkward day at work.

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But I'm so thankful for how God redeems, because I can see the looks on the faces of so many people in the audience, men and women who are caught up in that sin that they feel like they feel not alone. They feel hope that they can get through this and maybe courage to confess, which really starts the process. And so I'm so thankful that God has used that aspect of our story, which I would love to go back and undo it. I would love to go back and. And have never, ever looked at Porn. I mean, I wish I could do that, to just completely erase that from history, and I can't. But what I can do is receive the grace that Jesus gives to forgive all sin, be grateful to a loving wife who gave me the opportunity to rebuild trust, and then use this story as a way to help others, as a way to promote healing for those who've fallen into it, and as a cautionary tale for those who are maybe tempted to go down that road to let them know it. It doesn't end anywhere good.

No.

And it just doesn't.

It doesn't. And I'm so grateful too, that, you know, for part of our story, I do feel like God has used it for our good and for his glory. Back in those days, it didn't feel like that, you know, so I know we are many, you know, many years away from this. And so it's, you know, we're able to talk about it in this way because of that, because there's been tremendous healing. And so if you don't feel like you're at that point yet, don't beat yourself up. My goodness. It takes time. And, you know, there were days where I wasn't full of grace, where I was frustrated. You know what I'm saying? I wanted to be an infidel, right?

To be.

I felt like I just needed to be hyper vigilant again, like, you know, And I mean something I hear too, whenever there's been infidelity, whether, you know, just any guy, instead of saying infidelity, I want to say sexual sin, which is, you know, in itself a form of infidelity. You know, in marriage, whether it's porn.

Use or whether it's a sexual affair with somebody else or anything in between.

Anything in between. You know, I hear from a lot of women specifically if their husbands have engaged in some kind of sexual sin. They find it really hard to be in public places where women are in bathing suits or like a date night place or, you know, that for lack of a better word, like maybe it's a date night place that happens to have like a bar scene. And they see women like scantily clad and they get to the point where they don't want to go anywhere. Like they, they don't want to have a date with their husband in that kind of place. Like maybe a place that they used to really enjoy to go listen to live music or something because they feel, well, the whole time I'm just going to be worried that he's looking at that girl's, you know, Breasts all night. Or I'm going to be worried that there's just lingering looks at that one waitress that is just really young and pretty and not me. You know, like, all this. This. The mental. I call it mental gymnastics to where you're just wearing yourself out by the what ifs and the. Is he looking? Is he doing this or is she, you know, like. I mean, because it definitely can go both ways. I just. I feel like, you know, that is where the enemy can really get a foothold, is by trying to convince us that we have to keep on holding onto it. And that was something I had to learn. It's like, I realized, you know, pretty early on, thankfully into our process of healing from the porn issue, I just realized that, you know, yeah, I could hold onto it. I could keep it as a constant reminder to keep you on your toes. I could hold sex back. I could just use it as how I wanted to. Totally. You know, And I just realized, like, I could do those things. Yeah. And maybe. Maybe back then, I felt like I had every right to, but I just realized, like, it was like that still, small voice from the Lord was like, you know, Ashley, you have every right to be mad. You have every right to be feeling the way you're feeling. But, you know, holding onto this is literally just going to poison you and the relationship. It's going to poison you both. And I just realized, like, I can't keep on drinking the poison, so to speak. Doesn't mean I'm going to have my head in the clouds. If I see something, I'm gonna say something. Like, if I see you acting weird and I feel like you're being. I mean, over the years, there's been days where I've been like, I feel like, is there something you want to tell me? That's usually how I approach it. Not like you're lying to me, you know, but I'll be like. The verbiage I'll use is like, hey, I feel a little bit of a disconnect. Is there something that you need to tell me? I mean, don't I. I do that.

Yeah.

Probably yearly. Yeah.

I learned, like, you know, not to be offended or anything by that, but to say, okay, well, I'm. Whether I mean to or not, I'm giving off some kind of vibe through my nonverbal communication or through something I'm doing that's creating uneasiness in my wife. And I want to do everything I can to reassure her and to refocus myself and make sure. Well, am I Am I. Am I wandering off into danger zones in my thought life or in other parts of my life? And I just want to make sure we're connected. And she's wanting to make sure we're connected.

That's all it was. It wasn't to be a busybody. It wasn't to be a nosy person, but it was just to have that connection. And, you know, but I realized I couldn't just keep on feeding those thoughts of what if, what if, what if? And it just steals our joy. It breeds anxiety, and it's, you know, we have to go back to what the Bible says about renewing our minds and focusing on what is good and what is worthy of praise and, you know, good things. And I think as a culture, we're just kind of primed to see the negative, and we're primed to be doubtful, to be full of doubt, because you can. I mean, there's this whole, I think, true crime podcast, which I'm a fan of, but I think they're so popular because we just have an untrusting, like, just pervasively untrusting culture. I mean, it just rained.

Like, we love to assume the absolute worst about anybody. Like, right, you walk by somebody, I bet he's a serial killer. It's like, why does her mind go there? But it's the truth. It does. And so.

And it really. We bring it into the marriage, that skepticism. And I think we need to be smart and we need to be, you know, just, you know, wise. Obviously, be wise, be tuned in. And I really believe the Holy Spirit, too, through our prayers will, you know, especially in the recovery from an affair or any kind of sexual sin, he will reveal that which is hidden. That was one of my prayers, too, then was like, reveal what is hidden, Lord, whether in me, whether in Dave, or with our children, reveal what's hidden. That's a scary prayer.

And speaking of children, like, that's thinking about how to protect the next generation is huge. And part of how we can use our own stories in a positive way is to help safeguard our own kids. And I think that as parents, we all have that duty. We talk a lot about how to teach kids about sex, about helping to safeguard kids from pornography, making sure we have filters on the devices which our kids hate. They're always like, oh, my gosh, this is so annoying. But we tell them there's so much out there that is trying to hook you, trying to pull you in to stuff that's just completely unhealthy and unnatural. And we have open and honest conversations about that. A few years ago, even wrote a book called Raising Boys who Respect Girls.

It's so good.

Which since we only have boys, I'm like, well, I'll leave the raising girls part to somebody who has experience. But it's really all about raising boys with that mindset of being. Having a healthy sexual mindset, respecting women, trying to stay away from the counterfeit of porn and anything that would cheapen sex and help create them, help give them a foundation to be great husbands and fathers someday themselves. And sometimes it means us having the courage to admit our own faults to our kids. I know we want to look perfect to our children, but you got to be willing to say, listen, I. I've blown it in this area and I've lived with the pain of that, and I want to help protect you from that. I want you to do better than I did.

Yeah. And we have had those. We're very honest with our kids, and you've been honest with them about your past and what we went through. And if they're doubting why we have these filters, I mean, at an age appropriate level, we'll say, listen, some things as a kid, you're going to understand, it's going to make sense to you, but there's a lot of that. You're not going to know the whole story yet, and you're going to have to trust me. And in the same way as adults, it works the same way with God. You know, we have to trust that the Lord knows best. We can't see the full picture yet, but we have to trust him. And whenever we are recovering from sexual sin, there's that huge piece about trusting God. And it's just important that we realize that. And I just think that when it comes to women specifically, I think that we can get really hung up in our thought life when it, you know, coming through, you know, dealing with our husband's sexual sin. And we immediately, it like, kills our libido. And we're not sure we want to be intimate because it feels like, how can I give myself to this person that I can't trust? Like, trust is a huge part of a thriving sex life. And it's like, well, how can I ever do that again? And I just always, whenever I talk to women, I say it's baby steps. And it, it might be that you don't jump right back into sex. And there was a time with us, I mean, it was like, it was little by little, and the trust was built through conversation. It was built through me seeing your consistent actions. It was built through hard, hard questions and very quick, like, willing answers. I think that's a big thing. Like, you know, if you have had a breach of trust in your marriage, then you have to be willing to answer pretty much any and all questions.

Yeah. Without being offended that it was asked.

Exactly.

You have to be an open book.

You do. But sometimes, and I've seen this even in the counseling space, sometimes you're going to have questions for your spouse, but they may not know the answer yet. And you have to trust that. Like I would like, if they come to you and you have this big question, like, why did. I mean, usually it's why? Like, why did you do this? Why? Like, what was going through your mind? Oftentimes that spouse can. Because they really don't know the origin necessarily.

I mean, it wasn't just one big decision.

Right, Right.

Most times a sexual affair is a thousand small, bad decisions.

Exactly.

To let my guard down here, to linger in a conversation a little too long here, to share a little too much here, to seek out that person more than I needed to at work or whatever. And it's little by little by little, you're. You're making a decision without even realizing at first, realize you're making it until all of a sudden there's this deep connection and these feelings that are so strong and they almost take you by surprise from what we've heard other people describe the process as. And so when someone like, why'd you do this? How'd you do this? You're trying to replay the tape in your head. You're thinking, I don't. How did I do this? How did I end up in a hotel room with that person? Because that's not where it started. It started by just hanging too long at their cubicle. It started by, you know, just funny text messages back and forth that should have never been sent in the first place.

Exactly.

But in themselves, you could look at and say, well, no, that was innocent. And you've got to safeguard your marriage. And I think a few quick rules to do that.

Yes.

Don't be alone with the opposite sex unless it's like, absolutely necessary for work. And even then, do it with safeguards in place. Don't have private text or message exchanges with the opposite sex. I think we've tried to do these things. We try to copy each other on text. We try to make sure that we're not fostering any kind of relationship with anyone of the opposite sex, even if it's totally platonic. Or totally professional, that could open the door. Cause we say don't be, put yourself in a position to be tempted or talked about. You know, if it's gonna look weird here, then don't do it. If it could tempt you, then don't do it.

And don't say anything or text anything that you wouldn't like to someone of the opposite sex that you wouldn't do. Right. With your spouse right next to you. I mean, we try to, whenever possible to put, you know each other on that text. If it has to be a text with someone else, even for work, I mean, we do that. I mean, I know we do work together, but in the past, I mean, even when you were, when I was staying at home and you were a full time pastor at that time, there would be times where women would wanna have counsel, you know, pastoral counseling with you. And you would do it, but you would do it in a wide open, yet private. Like it was a private. In the sense of no one else could hear the conversation, but it was in a wide open space.

In our atrium, out in the open.

Where people could be walking by. There's not, there's. Or if you have to do it in an office, there's a window. Like in our church. There's windows on every office.

There's a lot of transparency.

There's transparency.

We just live with transparency.

You do. And you know, now that I am counseling and coaching people, you know, I make sure there are times sometimes when I would meet with, you know, male counselees and I made sure those same things were in place. I'm never gonna meet and counsel somebody in some space that's like there's no window and it's too private. Cause I wanna make sure I'm beyond reproach too. Right? I mean, one of the biggest things in the counseling, in all my training, I mean, literally in every class I had, they would repeat over and over again, do not have sex with your clients. I mean, and that sounds so harsh, but it happens.

It's a good rule.

And even in counseling, and it's really what it boils down to, it's not surprising. It's that if you don't have personal boundaries, you know, here's somebody just baring their soul to you. And sometimes it's called countertransference or transference happens where you start having these, you know, you think feelings are there or whatever. And it's usually because there's just not safeguards in place. Right. And so it can happen to anybody, pastors, it can happen to teachers. It can happen to literally, like infidelity is no respecter of persons. Like, none of us are beyond temptation. There's not any person out there that has a better marriage than you. So much so that they could never have infidelity in their marriage. You know what I'm saying? Like, all of us have to be on guard all the time. And that's not a burden. That's just being smart. I mean, it's just protecting. It's like your armor. Like you have armor on. Not that you can't. You know, you don't have to be a weirdo and like not talk to people of the opposite sex, but you just do it in a way that respects your spouse, but also respects their spouse if they're married, but their future spouse if they're not. Like, you're just. It's just a respectable way to live.

It is. Man, this has been such an important conversation and we hope that it's encouraged you. If you are in the aftermath of infidelity, you know, our prayers are with you. We've got a lot of resources on our ministry's website, xomarriage.com but we also encourage you to get with a Christian counselor because to fully heal, you're gonna need that professional help. You're gonna need somebody to come alongside you.

You absolutely will. Yes.

That's just something that's gonna help you. I also wanna say we've got a bonus coming for you. I mentioned earlier the conversation about teaching kids about sex. And we're excited to announce that we're gonna share a bonus episode this coming Friday here. This week on Friday, it's a teaching session we did at the Exoparenting conference which took place at keystone Church on August 3, 2024. And our talk was on how to teach kids about sex. We put kind of everything that. Everything that we teach on that subject all in like a 30 minute conference talk. And we want to share that with you for free as a bonus podcast episode on Friday. So make a note of that and plan to tune in for that. You can get all of our conference content and a ton of other content at xonow. Com, which is our ministry's streaming service. So check that out as well. Guys, thank you so much for tuning in. We really appreciate you.

We do. We'll see you next time.