Control Issues

Hey, guys. Welcome back to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast, we Undress the truth about sex, intimacy, and lifelong love. And today's topic is a really serious 1 and 1. I'm excited to jump in and have this conversation.

That's right. It's one we don't often talk about because I think that there's some shame involved in it. So we're gonna be talking about dominance in marriage when you have a dominant spouse who kind of wants to rule over their spouse and kind of rule the home. So let's dive in.

We get so many messages online, and we get them online because it's one thing that people are hesitant to talk about in person, even though we talk to a lot of people in person at our events. But online, we get messages from both husbands and wives that say, I really don't know what to do with this situation, but I feel like my spouse, my husband, my wife is just a bully. I mean, they're dominating me. And for the dominant husband, it can be a guy that just has this misguided view of what submission is supposed to mean. And he believes that it's his role to hold his wife down and control everything she does. For the dominant wife, it can be this need to just try to control every aspect of her husband or treat her husband like he's one of the children and just kind of nag about everything that he does. But whether it's the husband or the wife that tries to dominate, it really creates such an unhealthy dynamic in the marriage. And for the spouse who's trying to be the peacemaker, it puts them in this tough spot of saying, well, I don't want to be a doormat, but at the same time, when I push back against this dominant personality, it always seems to backfire. So I don't know what to do with that. And so we're gonna dive into this messy but important conversation, you know, and.

We witnessed this firsthand with different couples we've worked with over the years. And we actually had a friend of ours that he really struggled with this. And it was kind of. This is many years ago. It was pretty apparent whenever we would go over to their house for dinner, and he would just kind of talk in a derogatory manner over his wife. He would talk to her that way, he would talk about her that way. He would complain about her cooking in front of other people. And then he would make these very weird. This is a Christian man, ok? He would make these very weird Comments about how, you know, she needed to submit. Like, he would say, you need to submit, woman. And, like, I mean, I know some of you listening are like, oh, my gosh, that's so harsh. But let me tell you, our friend's story is not the only one we've heard like this. Like, there are some Christian men out there that maybe you were raised this way. Maybe you were raised in a home where this is how your father rolled. Like, maybe this is how he talked to your mom. And you think this is normal. But let me just tell you, it's very misguided. It's just very misguided, and it's very hurtful. And we watched, you know, this is before we were ever in marriage ministry, and we would try to be real encouraging to them, but we watched it ruin them. It literally ruined their marriage. They ended up divorcing. And then he got remarried, ended up having the same issues again. I met with the wife. I tried to encourage her. Dave met with him again. He just could not get this concept of what that's supposed to look like, how you're supposed to relate to your wife and talk to your wife. And that marriage ended up ending, and it took a long time, but he's now kind of had a greater understanding. And so, you know, Dave and I are talking about this issue, and we just want to share this with you because it might save your marriage.

It might. Yeah.

Because you just will not last. If you're talking to your wife this way. It will eventually make her want to run and she's going to feel really emotionally abused. Because really, in our friend's case, and in many cases where this is, you know, there's one domineering spouse. It is a form of emotional abuse.

It really, really is. And we want you to not have to learn the hard way. I mean, thankfully, my friend now is in a much, much better place in a very healthy relationship. We're thrilled for him. But we know that this is an issue that can ruin marriages. For Jimmy Evans, who, you know, is the leader of this whole ministry and has taught us so much. This was a big part of his story. And he talks about this in his books and at the upcoming XO conference, which we hope you come to xomarriage.com you can learn all the details, but we just love this event. He shares often about this, how he felt like it was his role to really be the boss in a very patriarchal, dominant, bullying kind of way. And it nearly ended his marriage. It nearly created a divorce between he And Karen. And until she got to a place in her faith where she was finding healing and wholeness in Christ and understanding who she was as a daughter of God and what she would kind of not allow that by allowing him to be that bully that it was actually she was contributing in some ways, perpetuates the problem, perpetuating it. She kind of helped turn his eyes toward Christ. And he was humbled and he learned and he grew and they came through it. And he shares in really a powerful way of how they grew through that and how now the whole dynamic of their marriage and is really a marriage that's a model for millions of people, including us, to look at and say, man, we want to learn from them so you can get through this. But it takes time, effort, prayer. Sometimes it takes counseling, because it's unlearning a lot of stuff. For the person that's that bully, they might have blind spots. They might think, well, this is just who I am. This is just my personality. And you end up tiptoeing around them thinking, well, I don't want to rock the boat, but it doesn't do any good.

And I will tell you this, too, and we're gonna talk specifically to husbands right now, and then we will talk about wives. Cause it's not just a male problem. And this happens with women as well. But husbands, when a husband is very controlling. Some women find this to be sexy. And they think, you know, he just.

At first.

At first. No, that's what I'm saying. At first. Like, maybe you were like, your wife was first attracted to you because you were a man with a plan, and you just kind of took the bull by the horn, so to speak, and you were kind of, you know, she liked your leadership in that way.

And.

But what happens over time is when you continue to do this and when you're always the boss and you're never listening to her because you're the only one in your mind who needs to make decisions. You are belittling her when you do that.

Absolutely.

And it's extremely. I mean, I just. I remember when we first went. The friend that I was talking about, we first went to their house for dinner, and he made that derogatory comment about her food. I saw her whole demeanor just shrink, and it was like her heart was broken. And let me just say, too, the meal was amazing. I mean, I'm thinking, like, what. Like, what is going on here? And it's just. And it's not just the words, but it's how you also Talk about them. It's like you think you're more important. It's very critical. It's like you think you're the most important spouse in the marriage. And it's so clear in the Bible that in order for a marriage to really work the way that God designed it, he first calls us to mutual submission to him and then to each other. And this is just straight up out of the Bible. I'm not making this up or giving you my opinion. This is in the Word. And unless we do that, unless we first submit to the Lord with our hearts and say, you know, God, I am yours, my spouse is yours. Do with us what you will, help us to have the marriage you want us to have, and then really be. Submission is really about humbling, humbling yourself. Until we do that, we're just, we're gonna constantly bump up against each other in this way. And if you have a domineering personality, if you tend to be the one who wants to lead, if whenever you're in a group setting, if you're not leading, you're disappointed, you probably struggle with this, you know, this. It really is an issue that, you know, maybe you are a natural born leader, but that doesn't mean you're supposed to be domineering with your wife. And leadership too shouldn't be domineering anyway.

No.

And so it's just a really toxic dynamic that will just tear down your wife and break her heart.

Yeah, you can be confident and assertive and a good leader and all those things, but you can do it. You must do it without being a bully or controlling or manipulative or critical, because there's never a place for that. You know, Jimmy makes a good point about this, that sometimes it happens as an overcorrection or a self defense mechanism for people who grew up in a house with a dominant spouse. So let's say, for instance, you grew up in a house. The mom dominated the spouse and everybody else. Like, she just demanded her way, she always got her way. She threw a fit when she didn't get her way, and everybody just had to walk on eggshells around her. And she was just kind of the bully that ruled the house. A boy that grows up in that is going to have this defense mechanism that says, I'm never going to allow that to happen to me. You know, a girl that grows up and sees a dad that's bullying, you know, the mom all the time, you know, she might end up marrying a guy just like her dad, feeling like that's normal. Just like if roles are reversed, a guy could marry a dominant woman and just continue the cycle. But that girl might grow up and say, that's never going to happen to me. And I'm going to. I'm going to overcorrect and make sure that I'm the one in control. And in either case, like, whenever the pendulum swings far off balance, nobody wins. You know, when Jimmy at the XO conferences says, raise your hand. If you grew up in a house where one. One parent, once one of those spouses dominated over the other one, all these hands go up and he goes, now I want you to raise your hand if you feel like that dominant dynamic created a negative impact in the home. And all those hands shoot right back up. And the message is, nobody wins. Like the kids lose, the marriage suffers. Nobody. Nobody wins. Even that dominant person is rarely ever happy. Right. Like, they're miserable a lot of the time. And so God wants us to come to a place of mutual submission to him.

Right.

And then a beautiful submission to one another as well.

Exactly. And, you know, in marriage, anytime we're really concerned with our way, our rights, how we want to do things, we're really not in the right place, because marriage is all about coming together and working through it together. You know, we always say, it's not his problem or her problem, it's our problem. And so it's about working through this together. But what we find when there's one dominant spouse, that spouse really just dismisses what their spouse has to say and what it's telling your spouse. If you're dominating over them and you never listen to them, you're telling them they don't matter, and you're telling them that you just don't love what they have to say. Like, it's not even worth listening to. And that is so toxic because it shuts down the communication because it makes the spouse feel like, well, why would I even, you know, tell him my opinion anyway? Because he's just gonna do what he wants to do. And it just creates a very negative tone in the home. And it's. It's really bad for your kids to see this, too. I mean, I would think about it from that perspective, too, is your kids. It's toxic. I mean, just like those people who raised their hands when Jimmy was talking about this, and all of them said it was a negative thing. You know, if this is how your dynamic is with your spouse, I guarantee you it's negatively affecting your kids. And if you have a daughter. So if you're Just kind of ruling over your wife. And you have a daughter who's watching this. She's gonna expect a man. She's either. Well, she's gonna do one or two things. She's gonna expect that all men should treat her this way, and she'll find a domineering spouse who will treat her that way, or she, like Dave said, is gonna end up trying to dominate another spouse, most likely because we just. We do overcompensate or we expect the same thing. And we need to give our kids a healthy perspective of marriage. And, you know, there's no perfect marriages out there. We say that all the time. Because there's no perfect people. You know, we all have frailties. We all have things. So please know that just because you have this tendency doesn't mean you can't be fixed or you're doomed or whatever. You definitely can. I think a lot of times people who want to dominate, there is a deep insecurity in them. And this is something that needs to be explored in counseling and Christian counseling. And I would encourage you, first and foremost, in order to make this better in your marriage. Go get counseling for yourself. See, why do you have that need to want to rule over people? Why do you always have to be the one in control? Why do you always have to be the one that says yes or no? You know? Cause there's some reason in there. And I would just go explore that and ask God to heal you and have a counselor really speak into your life. And once you understand this, and sooner rather than later, you need to apologize to your spouse. I mean, really, you need to start there, apologize and say, I don't know why I do this. I realize that it's unhealthy. I realize it's hurting you. I realize this is really negatively impacting our family and our marriage. But I am so sorry. Like, I can't tell you why. You did nothing wrong here. It's all me. But I'm gonna get the help that I need to heal from this so that we can move forward and be healthy and not have this horrible dynamic anymore.

That's huge. And just apologizing in that kind of humble, honest way is something that most dominant spouses will rarely ever do, because in their misguided way of thinking, it's giving up control. Any kind of admitting fault is giving up control. And so chances are, if it's really a dynamic where one spouse is dominating over the other, one way you'll be able to tell that is that either there is no apologies or there's constant apologies with no change of action.

I would say there's even a third dynamic where they'll apologize, but it's the apology that's not really an apology. Like the I'm sorry you feel that way, right?

Yeah. I'm sorry. That's not apology. I'm sorry if I feel like that's.

Not even what I'm saying.

In other words, like, you're the one.

Who should be like, you're stupid. I'm sorry that you think that way. You know, I mean, that's pretty much what you're saying now.

A real apology. When you've wounded somebody and they've said that you've wounded them, then you need to be humble enough to listen and to humbly admit fault. Take responsibility, ask for forgiveness, ask for the opportunity to rebuild their trust and then change your behavior in a way that's going to rebuild trust. So good. So good. So good.

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So, you know, switching gears a little bit to some of the misconceptions, I think even within the church, some of the misconceptions that can lead to people, to this dominant behavior is this misguided notion of what submission means. And you know, we've written about this. Our friend Tim Ross has a great talk that he did at last year's XO podcast that's going to be coming out or it might be out right now. Even on the XO Podcast, you can search for that. It's a really, really well thought out talk. And Tim does a great job as usual. The question is kind of that million dollar question is, well, what is submission supposed to look like? I did an article that you can find on marriagetoday.com called is a man really the head of the household. And you can look that up along with a lot of articles and videos that we do. But there's this idea, man's the head of the household, so he gets to call all the shots. And sometimes in these really kind of like fundamental patriarchal worldviews, people say, well, that's in the Bible. You know, it's what the Bible says. But when you really explore what the Bible is saying and what it's teaching us, that whole idea of submission, you can find the extended passage on Ephesians, chapter five, which is a great explanation of how God designed the family dynamic to be. You see, that man does have. The husband does have a unique responsibility of leadership and really a unique accountability in terms of he'll stand before God and he will have to give an account for the way he led his family either into a closer walk with Christ or he led them away from that. And that is something that every husband will have to do. And that's a unique calling that's placed on our shoulders. But that whole idea of submission and wives submit to your husbands, which does come after, I don't want to ever rewrite the Bible. It is in the Bible. It comes after the part of mutual submission to Christ. The way that we see it play out in practical terms is guys are called to love their wives as Christ loved the church. This means we are willing to lay down our lives for her. Jesus is the bridegroom. The Bible says the church is his bride. When you look at how Jesus loves his church, it's an example of how a husband should love his wife. And it is selfless, it is patient, it is compassionate, it is caring. And ultimately it is a love that is willing to lay down your life in a painful way for the sake and for the good of your bride. And guys, if you're not loving your wife in that way, if you're not willing to love your wife in that way, then the thought of trying to expect her to submit to your leadership or to follow your lead in anything is really misguided because it always begins with that charge to the husbands to love your wife the way Christ loved the church, which is a servant hearted love, a love that rolls up your sleeves, a love that's willing to lay down your preferences and your priorities for the sake of lifting up the other and just in real practical terms. And I want Ashley to jump in here and she's got so much wisdom to share on this. But I want to challenge you. Guys. Guys, you love your wives. You serve your wives. I think one of the best ways to do it is to submit to her in anything that is a matter of preference. If you ever expect her to submit to your decision in anything, that's a matter of principle. You know, those kind of big, rare decisions where you two might not completely see eye to eye, and you just have to say, I need you to trust me on this. I've really prayed about this. I need you to back me on this. If there are ever those moments when you need her to extend that trust in you, I think it has to come after thousands of acts of submitting to her in terms of preference, of letting her pick out everything. Let her set the tone in the.

Home, pick furniture, let her pick the.

House, let her pick the car, let her pick the restaurant, let her pick what show to watch. And if you guys are dominating your wives, feeling like you're gonna hold the remote control and she's just gonna bring you a drink out of the fridge, and you're gonna bark orders at her, that is gonna be a miserable marriage that's gonna ultimately end. But if you will serve your wife, you know, if you will let her watch what she wants to watch, I'm gonna just call you out. If you're a husband that argues with your wife about the color of the wall, to paint the wall or something like that, then you're an idiot. I'm just gonna say it. You're an idiot. You're a foolish person. You've been.

You've got to just say, sweetie, I want you to be happy for some people.

I'm telling you guys, I am happiest when I can serve my wife in ways to make her happy. I end up watching a lot of shows that I have no interest in watching, but she's very sweet. Every now and then, she'll watch a football game with me or something, too. It does go both ways, but in terms of just serving her preferences, Sweetie, what would you like this home to feel like? You set the tone in this home. You're the heart of this home, and it brings joy not only to her, but from her. You know, our home is a joyful and peaceful place because of her. And, guys, if you're always correcting your wife and trying to challenge her on these little nitpicky things and trying to have the last word and all these issues of preference, then you're a bully. You're not a husband. You're not loving her the way Christ loved the church. You're being a bully to her. And, you know, on the flip side, ladies, if you're always criticizing your husband, nagging him, if nothing he does is ever good enough, if you're always demanding your own way, and your preference has always got to be the way that things are in a demanding way, then you are a bully. You're a bully. It can go both ways. And you're sabotaging your home life, too. So really, it does come back to that mutual submission. If both spouses are saying, how can I serve each other? How can I bring out the best in her? How can I bring out the best in him? Those are the marriages that really thrive.

You know, it's so true. And when Dave was saying, like, that, husbands could say, you're the heartbeat of this home. You make this home inviting. And, you know, I love the way you do this, husbands. That is how you love your wife. You brag on her to her and about her to other people. You point out those good things. That's how you can love her. I mean, love is so much more than just the physical act of having sex. You know, honestly, I mean, just a little side point here. She is going to be more inclined to want to be physically intimate with you the more she feels loved and adored by you. And it's through those kind of conversations where you are building her up, making her feel appreciated, making her feel loved and adored. Now, in the same way, ladies, you know, wives, submit to your husbands, you could also say, and there's a lot of writings on this, wives, respect your husbands. And there's some wives that see that, and they're like, well, I'm not gonna submit to him or respect him, because there's nothing there that I can respect. Like, what does he do that's respectable? And I would tell you this. Find even the smallest thing that your husband does that is right and compliment him on it, because it will go a long way. The words thank you or I appreciate you. I love it when you do whatever it is that he's great at. It really builds him up. Because your husband needs respect from you even more than he needs to hear the words I love you. And there's lots of research done on this. One of our friends, Shanti Feldheim, she's an amazing author out there. She's written a lot about this, and she's researched this, and it's so true. And I remember when Dave and I first read about this and heard about this, we were like, yes, you know, and so be willing wives. Be willing to do those things and to thank him for something every day. And husbands, you should do the same for your wife, because when you thank her, she feels loved by you. When she thanks you, you feel respected. And we need to be willing to serve each other and really humble ourselves and submit to one another in that way. And every day we choose to do this because, you know, when we say I do, it's not just the day we get married. We literally need to wake up every morning and we need to say, I do every day. And how we can say I do every day, I choose you every day is by loving them and by thanking them and telling them specific things that we are thankful for about them and specific things that we love about them. And when we do this, it really gets us out of this domineering dynamic. And, you know, one thing I do wanna say is there's this term, and we like to say this too, but it's. A lot of times you'll hear happy wife, happy life. And that's great because I think what Dave was saying, you know, oh, you know, when the wife's happy, the husband can be happier in a lot of ways. That's true. But this can go way wrong when the wife is just barking orders at her husband and everybody in the home she sees as there to serve her. Yes, that's completely.

And we've all known families like this and couples like this where the husband is just desperately trying to make his wife happy, keep his wife happy. It's never enough. And it just feeds this beast. This. Not the cheesy beast it does, but it feeds the monster inside. The monster inside dynamic of feeling like you have to be served, you have to get your way. And then when she doesn't, then she can just explode and punish everybody around her. And that's certainly, certainly not healthy, no matter which spouse is. I mean, guys, yeah. Do all you can to make your wife happy. I'm happiest when my wife is happy, without a doubt. But at the same time, if you're having to make all these concessions and really just lay down and be a doormat for your wife to be appeased, then that's not a healthy dynamic. And. And a resource will suggest if you feel like your marriage is maybe in this weird place where one spouse is dominating over the other. We talk about boundaries a lot in general. There's a book called Boundaries by doctors John Townsend and Henry Cloud that we'll recommend, and they also have a version called Boundaries in Marriage that can help you specifically in this. Also, Ashley mentioned Shaunti Feldheim who has some great resources out there. She's actually gonna be a guest on this podcast in an upcoming episode, and we can't wait to have her. Shaunti is. She's helped our marriage and our ministry in huge ways, and I can't wait to have her on to brag about her.

And her husband, too.

And her husband, too.

They do marriage ministry, too.

They've taught us a lot. They've done a lot for us. So we're looking forward to having her on. But before we wrap up, sweetie, why don't you speak to the spouse who's being dominated? You know, maybe they're feeling afraid of their spouse, either physically or emotionally. They just feel like they're being threatened in some ways. Maybe they feel like they deserve it. They've been beat down and they kind of have that battered mentality of, this is just my lot in life. I brought this on myself. I deserve this. And just the really unhealthy dynamics that abuse can take, I mean, that's really crossing the line from just dominating into flat out abuse.

Right.

And that's probably a whole separate issue. If you're feeling in physical danger, if you're feeling abuse, get help right away. There are national hotlines, even if you have to get the police involved, but you've got to be safe. And if you feel unsafe, especially physically in your home, then get help right away. But if this is just kind of a dynamic where you don't feel physically unsafe, you just are feeling mistreated consistently, what do you say, sweetie, to that spouse? Whether it's the husband or the wife, what should they do?

Well, first and foremost, I just want you to know that this is not your fault. You did nothing to deserve this treatment, and you shouldn't feel like you deserve it. I think that that is. It can happen too. When this happens over and over again, we can feel manipulated to feel like we deserve it. And God wants so much more for you. He doesn't want you to go through life day in, day out feeling beat up. He wants us to live a life of freedom, a life where we can enjoy it and have a life of fullness. And I would just say, you know, I just hope that you can understand that. And if you are feeling beaten down, I think it'd be good for you to go to counseling as well. Because sometimes when we feel beaten down and we have this mentality like, well, I think I just deserve it. I'm not being the wife I should be. I'm not being the husband I should Be. You know, we really need to have someone speak into our life, God's truth. And we need to replace those lies that we have going in our mind and replace it with God's truth. And sometimes it takes a Christian counselor to help us to see this, but it also gives us the strength to be able to stand up for ourselves, because you will need to set those boundaries. I would highly suggest to get that book that Dave mentioned earlier. It will really help you to understand that you need to be a peacemaker. Yes. But God does not call you to be a doormat. And there's a huge difference there. And so the next time your spouse is just being demanding with you, maybe you're scared they're not physically hitting you, but maybe they're physically hitting the wall, or maybe they're throwing that lamp down on the ground, or they're just, you know, they start throwing a fit. I get where that's scary. I do. But I would just. I would encourage you to set the boundary and say, listen, I am not gonna talk to you until you can calm down because this is going nowhere. And especially if you have kids in the house, you gotta shut this down. Because your kids are witnessing all this just toxic behavior. And it's scary. I mean, you know, it's scaring you. It's scaring them, too. And I just wanna encourage you to do that. And hopefully, the more you do this, the more your spouse will realize I'm not getting anywhere. Because like Dave mentioned earlier, we have to kind of get rid of the monster inside of them. Because there's this something inside of them that wants them to control so badly that when they feel like they're losing control, they lose it. They lose their temper. They start saying things they don't mean. But the more that we can kind of rein that in and say, listen, I love you too much to let you keep on behaving this way. I know you don't mean this. And sometimes you need to say those things, say, I know you don't mean this. I don't like it when you act this way. And I'm gonna go in the other room until you can calm down.

And sometimes I think it means apologizing. Not in a way that you are taking responsibility for their terrible actions, but apologizing and say, look, I apologize that in my effort to keep peace for so long, that I've actually enabled and perpetuated this behavior by making you think it's okay for you to treat us like this, for you to treat me like this. For you to treat our family like this. I apologize that I made you think that's okay. Because in my attempt to keep peace, things have gotten worse.

But it's not okay.

It's not okay. And things have to change. And the louder they get, the quieter you get. You know, don't. Don't let them.

And that's hard.

That's hard. It takes a lot of courage. It takes a lot of discipline. But, you know, don't sink to that level because when they're in that mode, they're not thinking straight, right? And they're. They're wanting to pull you into a mud. A mud wrestle fight, you know, like two pigs rolling around in the mud. Nobody wins that way. You have to keep the high road and you have to say, I'm not going there. We're not going to sling mud. And you can call me names, you can do whatever you. But that's not appropriate. I'm not going to respond that way. But every time you respond that way, you're digging this hole deeper that we're going to have to dig out of together. And so I'm asking you to take a step back. And we need to get help. If you can't, we need to get help. We need to see a counselor.

And counselors can really help this. You know, it's good to have a neutral place with someone who loves God and wants the best for you and your marriage as well, and has the expertise to help you all navigate this. Now, I will tell you, you're gonna get pushed back. When someone has been used to getting their way, you're gonna get pushback. So just expect it. Go in being prayed up, you know, pray. God help me. Like, I normally cave because I just wanna keep the peace. But this is not peace. This is toxic. Help me to stand my ground in a loving way. Cause like Dave said, you don't wanna engage and start slinging words and saying things you don't mean or yelling at them. Cause that's just making things worse. But just lovingly standing your ground and saying, I can't talk to you when you're like this. I'm gonna step back until you can be in a better place. You may also consider writing it down. I think sometimes, you know, writing a letter where you explain your real feelings and give it to your spouse when you know they're already in a calm place, it kind of can give them perspective. And I would write it several times, like do a first draft, then another, because we want to kind of try to take Any kind of unnecessary emotion that's in there that could maybe make it bend, it seem different than it is, and just come down to what, what you actually mean and what you're feeling and why this is wrong. It will really give your. Your spouse kind of a perspective, your perspective. And hopefully if they read it when they're calm, they'll get more of an understanding. But the bottom line is you gotta be willing to set those boundaries. You gotta be willing to stand your ground, or it's just gonna keep on getting worse.

It is. And that takes courage. And sometimes that takes backup, like that of a counselor. But you're the one who sets the tone. You set the tone through your actions, through your words, of how you expect to be treated. And you stand firm in that. We could talk so much more about this, and we do have articles about this, in fact, in our upcoming Naked Marriage book, which you can get@nakedmarriagebook.com or on Amazon. We kind of dive into the vulnerability that it takes to have absolutely this kind of communication in marriage. But we also want to invite you to listen to that episode that Tim Ross did on the ExoMarriage podcast where he talks a lot about submission in marriage and really unpacks that in a biblical and practical way. And we want to invite you to the XO Conference. You know, Jimmy, you can hear him share live some of these stories. You can hear us sharing live and Tim Ross and others as well. It's a wonderful lineup, both at the main event at Gateway Church in February, simulcasted throughout the country, and then also at tour stops throughout the country. And you can find out more about all that@xomarriage.com really looking forward to what's coming the rest of 2019. It's going to be going to be a lot of fun.

It will. So thank you guys so much for tuning in. Be sure to stay subscribe. If you haven't already, please leave a comment. Also, you can get in touch with us@marriage today.com and we would love to hear from you. So you guys have a great day, and we will see you soon.