Don't Drink the Poison

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Hey guys. Welcome back to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis and on this podcast we undress the truth about sex, intimacy and lifelong love. Before we dive in today, I want to give a quick shout out to those of you who've been giving a shout out to us on this podcast. Your reviews, your ratings just mean the world to us. We read every single one. And so I want to read a couple of them real quick right now from itunes. This is from Hoyt Nitram. He says the information they share will change your marriage. The way they share this information is the key because you come away feeling like, hey, even I can do this. Thanks. I love that. I love that. So thanks. Thanks, Hoyce. And then George G3 also gave five stars and said every time I get a chance to listen to one of their podcasts, I always get something out of it. Sometimes it's God working on an issue in my life or marriage where he wants to bring healing and restoration. Love this couple. They've been in the game for a while now. They're very knowledgeable. Check them out. Thank you, George. When you guys leave reviews, it helps other people discover this. And we want that so much. Not because we want people to know about us, not that at all. We want people to have a strong marriage. We want people to have a naked marriage, a thriving marriage. And the more you can help us get the word out, the more you're partnering with us to make that happen. So thanks for those who subscribe. Thanks for those who review and let your friends know.

That's right. And I'm so excited about today's episode. It's a really important one. So let's dive in.

There was this old western movie that came out when I was like in high school, I think, and it was a Clint Eastwood movie and it was called Unforgiven. And that word, unforgiven was just sort of this theme of how everything in these guys lives was messed up because of this kind of grudge, this lack of forgiveness and the root of it. And I think that that's so true in marriage. I think that when there is unforgiveness, when there's a lack of forgiveness in marriage, it can create just so much turmoil. And that Lack of forgiveness can be aimed at your spouse, or it can be just either you or your spouse kind of carrying around this sense of a grudge and just in general and bringing that toxic nature back into the home. And so we just want to talk today a little bit about that. We've talked some about forgiveness in past episodes, but we're going to dive in deeper on this one because I'm so convinced that if you'll truly understand what forgiveness is, how to do it, why to do it, it will transform your marriage and your life like few other things will.

It's so true. You know, like Dave said on an earlier episode, we talk about what exactly? A real, you know, like, how to say you're sorry in an honest, real way. Because I think so many times, and I'll go over very quickly, but you can go back and listen to that episode for more details. You know, so many times it's like, I'm sorry you feel that way, but that is not asking for forgiveness because that's basically saying.

That's asking for a punch in the nose, right?

Exactly. It's basically saying, like, I don't really feel any remorse for what I did. I'm sorry that you're a weirdo and you feel like that was something.

I'm sorry if that offended you. I'm sorry if you got your feelings hurt because you're just so sensitive.

Like you, it's your problem.

It's worse than not apologizing when you're trying to blame yourself.

It's very degrading. It's very degrading. And so it's important that when we seek forgiveness, we say, listen, I am so sorry that I did this. I'm so sorry that I let you down. And I'm so sorry that this has caused a wedge between us. What can I do to make it up to you? What can I do? And I promise you I'm going to do the very best I can to make it up to you. And I think when we see that sincerity, it goes a long way. But I think, you know, one thing we have to remind ourselves is when our spouse messes up and when they seek forgiveness and they're truly repentant, you know, I think sometimes we think, oh, they're just getting an easy out. Like, it's not that easy. You know, I wanna make you pay for it. And what we do is we kind of. We think we've forgiven them, but really we end up having this kind of undercurrent of resentment. And it sometimes kind of bubbles up in the form of a cold shoulder, or it can bubble up in the form of being sarcastic all the time. Or maybe if you're like me, I struggled with this years ago and I still have to check myself sometimes. Maybe it's in using your body language to do your talking. So you're saying nice things, but your face is all nasty and your eye rolls are nasty, and your whole body language is just saying, like, I don't forgive you. So we really have to check ourselves. And really what it comes down to is asking God to help you, because we need God's help in fully surrendering this. And it takes actively fully surrendering it to him. I know Dave has gone over this many times in a lot of different podcasts because there's a huge difference between forgiveness and trust, right?

And so I think sometimes we say, well, I can't forgive them because I don't trust them. And there's a huge difference between forgiveness and trust. So forgiveness just to kind of dive in deeper on what this really means, it doesn't mean that what that person did you doesn't hurt. It doesn't even really mean, hey, you're off the hook. And that doesn't count in any way because there does often have to be a rebuilding of trust that requires time and effort and intentionality. But forgiveness is really just a conscious, deliberate choice. It's certainly not a feeling, but because you'll rarely feel like forgiving. But it's a choice to say, because I love you and because of what God has done for me, releasing me, pardoning me because of his love for me. In light of that, I want to pursue healing instead of the need to get revenge. I want to pursue restoration instead of revenge. I don't want to inflict the pain on you that I'm feeling because I know what that's going to do is it's going to just create a deeper wedge between us. It was St. Augustine almost 2,000 years ago who said holding a grudge is like drinking poison and then hoping the other person dies. And there are so many people that are poisoning themselves daily on this, drinking down that bitterness of a grudge instead of living in the freedom. When God tells us to forgive, it's more for the sake of the one forgiving than the one being forgiven. He wants you to live in freedom. And if you're carrying around a grudge against your spouse or against somebody else, some of you are carrying around this anger and bitterness and a grudge against someone who is dead and gone, they are never going to be able to say I'm sorry. And you've still got to choose to forgive. Sometimes the most Christian thing, the most freeing thing you can do is to accept an apology that has never come and may never come. And when you do that, there is such freedom in it because you're giving that pain to God. You're saying, lord, you've loved me. You've brought healing and forgiveness to me. I know that I've had many things I've needed forgiveness for, but now I'm having a hard time letting go of this pain that was wrongly unjustly inflicted on me. I'm giving that back over to you now. When it's your spouse who does it, it's extra sensitive when you have to forgive your spouse because you're living under the same roof. You're trying to move forward in your relationship. And so you have to choose to forgive instantly, but it's okay to trust slowly. And what that really means in practical terms is forgiving is giving them an opportunity to start rebuilding your trust without holding it over their head, without keeping score, without treating them like they're on probation and they're only one small mistake away from being cut out of your life completely. They need to know your love is unconditional, your commitment to them is unconditional, and you're going to do whatever it takes to help the relationship move forward toward healing. Forgiveness is what allows all that to happen, that process to begin. Then for trust to be rebuilt. It takes constant grace on the one who was wronged, and it takes constant intentionality on the one who did the wounding. If you've done something to break your spouse's trust, they need to see a complete acceptance of responsibility. They need to see genuine remorse in you. Not that they're trying to cause you to feel badly, but just a repentant heart that says, I'm wounded because I've wounded you.

Right?

And if you're acting like just so flippant about it, they're going to have a hard time really rebuilding trust because they're going to see this doesn't hurt you, the fact that you hurt me. You need to accept responsibility, show genuine remorse instantly, change behavior, live with total transparency. Because usually there's some level of dishonesty or secrecy in a broken trust. You've got to say, I'm going to live. Totally transparent, no passwords, no part of my life that's off limits to you and to see you over time consistently. Because consistency is the only way to build or rebuild Trust, you're going to do whatever it takes to make things right. And if both people are committed to this process, then there is no amount of broken trust that cannot be rebuilt and restored. If you're both willing to move forward with grace, transparency, and complete and total commitment to each other.

It's so true. And I want to speak to the spouse who, you know, their spouse did something wrong to them and maybe broke their trust in some way. And their spouse is repentant, but the actions they're taking to rebuild that trust aren't coming as fast. And there's not as great a change as quickly as they would like to see. And I think that's where a lot of times we can get discouraged. And that's where unforgiveness can really kind of seep into us. And we can start doubting whether or not our spouse was really remorseful in the first place, because we don't see the actions that we want them to take in the time that we want them to them to take them. And so I just wanna encourage you and say, it is a process. It's gonna take time for your spouse to rebuild that trust. And I think when we try to rush it and then we say, okay, it hasn't been done by this time, so I'm leaving, or it hadn't been done by this time, so I'm gonna make you pay more. I'm gonna be mean to you. And we have to be very careful. That unforgiveness can take root in our heart. And really what it takes is just being very intentional about our prayer life. I think it's a perfect time to really get intentional about praying together out loud. You know, all the time on the podcast, we talk about how prayer is just essential to cultivating a strong marriage and to cultivating a naked marriage. And, you know, it's something that is really powerful, especially in times where you are trying to forgive your spouse and trust your spouse again. Cause when you join hands and pray together, it doesn't have to be long and lengthy or some kind of extra spiritual language. Just talk to God, ask Him for his help, thank him for what he is doing, and you will be amazed at what he does to your heart. Cause he really keeps your heart soft towards your spouse. And it really keeps unforgiveness and resentment from building up in your heart. So I really encourage you to do that because it's so easy to start doubting whether or not God is working or whether or not your spouse is really ever going to regain Your trust again when you don't see it as fast as you'd like to see it. Because we are impatient by nature. And I struggle with this all the time, guys. I mean, I really do. There's been times where I've been frustrated with Dave, and it would build up. I mean, years ago, I remember a time when I can't even remember what he did, but it was on our anniversary. We were going to church, and I don't know what happened exactly. That's normally how these things go. But I remember being upset with him, and I was so upset, and I just could not get past it. And he said he was sorry, but then he moved on real quickly. And I just remember. Do you remember this? And I was just like, whoa, whoa, back it up. And it really took me some time. And after, I think we had to go through a church thing.

I don't even remember what it was, but I'm.

I don't remember what it was. I think he was, like, preaching that day. I was singing that day on the worship team, and I had to just kind of, like, gather my composure. But we came home and I told him. I said, sweetie, I'm having the hardest time getting over this. And it wasn't anything major. It was just kind of a little. A little tiff that we had. I can't even remember what it was, but it was the fact that it was on our anniversary. And Dave was like, listen, I'm sorry. And he said, you know, what can I do to make it right? And it was just good that we had that conversation. Cause I think sometimes, too, you know, maybe for you, it's not church services or whatever, but life is busy, and maybe you're trying to deal with something, and then the kids are grabbing you, or then your work is calling you or whatever you have to do. You have to always come back to that topic, to each other, and talk through it. Because if you don't, that is when unforgiveness and resentment gets wrong.

Or when one of you feels like, hey, this is a big deal to me, and the other spouse blows it off like I did in that situation.

Well. And I don't think you were blowing it off.

I wasn't trying to blow it off. I was just. I was kind of hitting the snooze button on, because I'm like, this isn't a crisis, and we don't have the time or margin to give it the focus it needs right now, so we've got to just kind of shelve it and come back to it.

Exactly.

But the way that I handled that seemed like I was being flippant or careless or just rushing through something that deserved and needed more conversation and healing. And so a lot of this, guys, comes back to just communication. You've got to communicate with each other. You've got to at all times, just check in, man, how are we doing? Like, how are we sweeping things under the rug? Are we recklessly getting involved in some cycles and habits that aren't healthy? Because the bottom line is unforgiveness of any kind is gonna cause harm to the marriage, and it's gonna cause harm to the person who is keeping it. I mean, there's studies about this, guys. You can look up not only the biblical truths, but you can look up social science, you can look up health studies.

Absolutely.

That people that carry around resentment or grudge or any of that. It'll affect your health. I mean, it will impact you in all kinds of negative ways. And you've got to be able to live in freedom. You've got to be able to live in peace. And so at the same time, if you're in a pattern where one spouse is consistently recklessly breaking the trust of another, that's a whole separate issue. And it's just this pattern of they just don't care anymore and they're hurting you. I mean, that's abuse. I mean, really, that's a whole separate issue. But most of the time, it's not one spouse that's intentionally hurting the other. It's one spouse that's maybe being selfish or careless, reckless, and their action is causing pain.

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And we've talked about this a lot. This happened early in our marriage when I was dealing with an addiction. To pornography that stemmed back from my teenage years. And we've had entire episodes on this, so I won't dive too deep into it. But just as it relates to forgiveness, I'll say, you know, Ashley forgave. Once that kind of came out into the light, the process of rebuilding trust was slow. She wanted to trust me, but she also knew that in this state that I was in, that I had been wrapped up in this sin for so long, that I wasn't fully capable of being the husband that I was meant and that I had promised to be when we exchanged vows. And so when that came out, it was a several month process of just detox and just to be, like, completely honest and transparent within that kind of, like, critical first few months, there were actually a few times that I actually relapsed and had to hit the reset button on rebuilding trust. Even though I was sick about it, and even though I was sabotaging the very trust I was trying to rebuild, I was just in this state where I was in an addiction. I've never had a drug or alcohol addiction, but looking back on the way that my mind was warped in that season of my life, I was addicted. And Ashley walked with me through that, demanding and expecting fully that there'd be accountability and transparency and repentance. And there was. But she could have so easily said, all right, you're on probation. If this ever happens, if there's ever any indication that this ever, ever is happening again, I'm out. I'm done. The grace card has just. It's been maxed out and just, you know, walked away. But what she did instead was just approached me with these high expectations, but with a huge amount of love, with radical grace. And it helped me through that critical period of getting clean and getting, in a lot of ways, sober from pornography all those years ago. And I'm so thankful for the way she responded with grace, even though she herself was wounded because of a sin that I had caused. I had caused her wound. And yet, while she was wounded, she was helping me to heal. And that is grace, and that is love. And it's because she chose to respond that way that really, it gave me the strength to get to a place for once and for all I could be free from pornography. And I'm so thankful, sweetie, that you responded that way. But even beyond that, her grace allowed our marriage to move forward. Her grace allowed the ministry that we now do to be born. And. And so I'm so thankful that she responded with that forgiveness and not with this Scorekeeping, where even years later, she could say, oh, well, you know, you hurt me those years ago, and I'm still getting over that, even though I know the wounds I caused were so deep. She chose to respond with love. There's a verse in Proverbs that says, you know, like, forgiveness restores, but repeating a matter, digging up that old dirt, constantly bringing it up, it actually separates friends. It separates, in this case, a husband and a wife. That's just one example of what that grace can look like. But at the same time, it's forgiveness with accountability. It's forgiveness with. I had to live in transparency. And I wanted to. I wanted to say I don't want there to be any secrets. And we still live in a completely secret, free environment now with accountability software and all that. And I love living that way because I love living. It's exhausting to try to keep secrets in a marriage and so bring everything out in the open. Whether your issue is pornography or it could be something completely different. It could be money that you're hiding or spending in a way your spouse doesn't know about. Bring all of that out. And yes, initially there will be woundedness. Initially, there will be a break in the trust that has to be rebuilt over time. Because as Jimmy Evans has said, trust is built in drops and lost in buckets. And I just. I love that. But one drop at a time, you'll build it back.

It's so true. You know, there's a verse in Ephesians that talks about. It's Ephesians 4. 32. It says, Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ, God forgave you so good. That's one of our favorite verses. Because, you know, in marriage, I know for those of you who are listening, maybe you're engaged or you're newlyweds, and you think, gosh, my spouse would never do anything to break my trust or hurt me. And, you know, most of the time, it is unintentional. I think we can fall into things, but there are times, maybe sometimes it is intentional. Either way, you know, we have to be repentant. We have to go and make amends, we have to seek forgiveness, and then we have to be willing to offer forgiveness. And if we're not willing to do both of those things, we're gonna have a really hard time having a naked marriage. I mean, that's essential to having a naked marriage, to having a thriving marriage. And I think, too, one thing we need to really consider here is maybe it's not your spouse who is making you feel resentful or who is making you have unforgiveness. Maybe it's your family member or maybe it's your friend that really hurt you, that did something that you could not believe they could ever do to you, and you've been holding onto it for years.

Or an ex spouse.

Or an ex spouse. Maybe you're bringing a message. Yes, you're blended family. Yes, absolutely.

There can be deep wounds there.

Deep, deep wounds. But I think we can hold onto those things, and it can affect our day to day. And we go about our day and we can forgive everyone else, but we come back to that one person like, well, what they did was so bad, I can never forgive them. And what you don't realize is that's affecting your marriage too. Because even though it's not your spouse that you're not offering forgiveness to just you, having that in your heart is kind of putting a lid on your other relationships and especially your marriage. And so we really need to. Even if that person, like Dave said, we'll never say they're sorry, we have to still surrender it to the Lord and really grant, like, offer, you know, accept their forgiveness. That really has never. They've never sought that forgiveness. But we say, I forgive that person because God forgives me. I've never heard any repentance from them. But I'm gonna surrender this. I'm gonna let this go and let God handle it, because God is the one who handles it. Right? God will handle them. That's between them and God.

But.

But we had to be willing to release that thing that we keep on holding onto because we're holding a grudge. We're holding a grudge against that person. And it's making us unkind sometimes to other people because we're hurt. And I'm sure you've heard that term, hurt people, hurt people.

That's true.

And that really is what's happened. And so I just really encourage you to do your best to make amends with those people, if you can. In the word, it talks a lot about. However you can, however, it depends on you. Strive to be a peacemaker. But sometimes those people that you're trying to have peace with won't have it right because they're holding a grudge against you. But that's between them and God. You can do your best to just surrender it to God, to be kind, you know, don't yell at them. Don't, you know, like Dave said, don't dig up the ground and try to hash it up again because you know that they're just gonna. You know, some people, and I think there is a verse about this maybe, but some people really just love. And they love a good fight and they wanna hold onto it because they feel bored with their life and they just wanna hash up some drama. And so you don't want any part of that. So however it depends on you, seek peace with that person. But if for whatever reason they keep on trying to bring it back up and trying to just have this conflict with you, you say, listen, I've forgiven you of that. And for the sake of my heart and my home, I'm letting that go. I'm letting that go.

Let God be the one to hold them accountable.

Yes, and he will. He will.

And if there needs to be a punishment of some kind, you know, we're not the wise enough to inflict that kind of justice. The Bible says vengeance is mine, says the Lord, and so give that over to him. And it's to protect you from having to be the judge, jury and executioner. You release it to God and let God hold them accountable. There's a resource from Jimmy Evans that could help you if you're in this place where you just need to find freedom from these past church. And it's 21 day total freedom journey by Jimmy Evans, who just is one of the greatest teachers, not only on marriage itself, but in so many other aspects of our life and faith. You can find more about that at 21dayjourney.com. That's the number. 21dayjourney.com and I think that that could be a great resource. Another resource we like to recommend is our book, the Naked Marriage Book, same title as the podcast, the Naked Marriage Book. And so it'll help you be transparent in marriage. That's really essentially the core message of nakedness. Not only physically, even though that's awesome, you know, get naked tonight, but it's also so much more than that. It's an emotional and spiritual nakedness. It's transparency, it's vulnerability. And it will help you and your spouse connect and heal on every level. Pointing us back to the truth of scripture. So you can find the Naked marriage book@nakedmarriagebook.com the audiobook's now available on itunes and on Audible, which is Amazon's audiobook source. So you can listen if you like listening. If you're not tired of hearing our voices, you can listen to the whole book or you can read it. But yeah, that's a resource definitely to check out as well.

And you know, I wanna say this too, like, if you do have an issue with somebody else in your family or a friend or coworker and you have been holding onto a grudge, first and foremost go to God with it, surrender it to the Lord, but also be open and honest about it with your spouse. You know, your spouse is supposed to be your best friend, your confidant, the person that you can talk through things with. And so sometimes I think we don't share this because we don't wanna burden our spouse with it, but we are meant to be burden bearer for each other. And so talk to your spouse about it. And you know what, your spouse may have some perspective on it that you never thought of or maybe a tactic that would maybe help to achieve some peace with this person that you never considered. So talk to each other again. We talk more about this in detail on how to do this in our Naked Marriage book. So we hope that you guys get that. And we thank you all so much for joining us on today's podcast.