Fight for Your Marriage, Not Your Political Party

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Hello and welcome back to the Naked Marriage podcast. We are Dave and Ashley Willis, and on this podcast we address the truth about sex, intimacy and lifelong love. And you guys, you are in for a very interesting episode, one we've wanted to do for a long time. And we have the right expert to talk about this today. He's going to tell you more about it in just a minute. But before we get into that, I want to share one of many reviews you guys have been leaving lately. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to us and leaving a five star review and letting people know how much you love the Naked Marriage podcast. It's the best way to spread the message and we know it takes, you know, some time, so we really appreciate you making the effort. Today's is from Demi 1915 and it says this. Ashley and Dave keep things light hearted while touching on a variety of issues within marriage. They keep things biblical and aren't afraid of deep or complex topics. Well done. Well, thank you so much. Demi and Dave's going to tell you about today's episode.

Yes, for those listening in real time, it is the day before the midterm elections here in the United States. So if you're listening somewhere else in the world, maybe, or maybe not, you guys are having elections around this time, but here in the US we are. And it's a very divided time and we've gotten some messages of what do we do when husband and wife or within our family, there's political differences and it's just making tension in our home. It's making us dread Thanksgiving in a few weeks. What do we do with that? Well, we've got a great guest. Like Ashley said, his name is Patrick Miller. He is a pastor, a podcaster, and the co author of a new book called Truth Over Tribe. And this book unpacks so many great practical and biblical solutions for how to navigate this politically divisive time we're living in with some new perspectives. So even if you and your spouse are on the same page politically, I feel like this episode is gonna have so much wisdom for you and how to have conversations with Others disagree with you. Oh, yeah. Which of course, happens more and more and more. And so I'm so excited about this. I'm thankful to Patrick for coming on. So without further ado, let's dive into today's conversation. Well, like we said in the intro, friends, for those who are listening, in the United States, it is election time in America.

Yes.

If you're listening to this in real time, it's a Monday and our midterm elections are tomorrow. And for those here in the United States, like everywhere you turn, social media, the news, it's all election talk. And it's really a divisive time as folks tend to get really, really passionate and divided around their political beliefs. And that can especially be complicated when that takes place in marriage, when you and your spouse are on different sides of the aisle, so to speak, on certain issues. And we're going to tackle all that today. And we've got a great guest with us today. As we said in the intro, Patrick Miller is such a great thought leader on this topic and the author, co author of the new book Truth Over Tribe. And we're going to dive into that. There's some great insights in it. And I just love the heartbeat behind this book and some of the lines in particular in this book that really stood out to me. And I'm excited to have a conversation with Patrick. So, Patrick, welcome to the Naked Marriage podcast.

Thank you so much for having me. It's a delight to be here. Awesome.

Yeah, we're excited to talk about this. Like, Dave, we out of the gate, like we were talking to you and saying we've kind of touched on, you know, marriage as it relate to pol, as it relates to politics and how if couples are on different kind of sides of the aisle, so to speak. But we've never really gone deep into that conversation. And we're so excited to talk to an expert like yourself. And so I would love to just hear, first and foremost, you know, why, why do you want to talk about this topic? I would love to hear, you know, what kind of led you down this path.

Man, there were a lot of things that led us down this path whenever we wrote the book. In part, it was because as pastors, the kinds of questions that people were asking us began to change all of a sudden in 2016, and then again, really, especially in 2020, back 10 years ago, people would ask us theological questions. You know, what do you think about infant baptism? What do you think about God's sovereignty and election? And now they want us to talk about CRT and LGBTQ issues and all of these hot button political topics. And while the Bible has a lot of things to say about our cultural issues, what we discovered was that people actually weren't very interested in hearing what Jesus had to say. They were far more interested in us repeating the sermonizing of whether it was Tucker Carlson or the scriptural pages of the New York Times. That's what they wanted from us. And when we didn't give them that, it created a lot of tension. And that tension that we experienced as a church community is also a tension that I know people experience inside of their marriages. I was just talking to someone the other day who said that during the last presidential election, she walked out with her husband and she looked at him and said, you voted for Hillary Clinton too, right? And he looked at her and said, oh, no, I voted for the Libertarian candidate. So I don't know how they got to the point in their marriage that they walked into the voting booth not knowing who the other person was going to vote for, but it's clear that they weren't talking about politics. And if I had to guess, it's because they wanted to avoid a fight. They wanted to avoid tension. But if you're anything like me in my marriage, I don't want things to be covered up. I want to be able to talk about everything with my spouse, even if we might disagree about a topic like politics.

That's so good. That's so good. And I want to dive into the marriage aspect in particular here in just a minute because that's. That's what we're about here on the podcast. But as. As a fellow pastor, I'd love to hear your insights as it relates to the church. That, yes, every church leader has lived in this tension and these really unique times that we're in where folks now more than ever, like you just talked about, they really want the church to take very outspoken stands on every issue related to politics. And if you don't, then it offends people. If you do, it offends people and it feels like a no win situation. And like you said, even when you just say, well, this is. This is what Jesus said on the issue, or. Or there's not a lot in the Bible on this particular issue, like, that's never enough for people. They want those lines in the sands drawn constantly or none at all, or.

Yeah, like, it's kind of like two extremes, don't you think?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. One story that illustrates this point. In 2020, after George Floyd, we got a message in our Facebook inbox from someone in the church. And they said, hey, if you don't talk about what happened to George Floyd today in church, and if you don't lament it on the stage, we're going to leave the church. Now, here's the deal. We're not going to let our Facebook page dictate to us what we do on Sunday mornings, but we do believe Jesus words, that we should mourn with those who mourn. And there were a lot of black members of our church were mourning not just what happened with George Floyd, but something bigger for them in their life. And so we planned on saying something about it, which we did. Afterwards, we got the other set of emails from people saying, I can't believe you said this. Are you saying that all police officers are racist? And of course, we never said anything like that from the stage. We didn't talk about that at all. But both of those people ended up walking away from the church because we didn't fit their vision of what a church should be. Which again, really came from social media. It came from media in general. And so you're right, this really is a lose, lose situation for pastors. The thing that I care about far more deeply than that is our witness to the world. The apostle Paul, when he looked at the Jewish gentile congregation in the churches of Ephesus, he's talking to them, he says, hey, you guys are ethnically different, but when you come together and you love one another and you cherish one another, you show that the things that divide the world don't divide us. And what that shows is that we have a different king. We don't worship Caesar, we worship Jesus. And he can bring diverse people together. Together. I think that a church that can bring together politically diverse people tells the lie of the world that says we should be divided politically. It says, no, Jesus is bigger than that. Jesus can bring together what everybody else wants to separate. And I think there's a lot of people in our country who are not in these extremes. In fact, there was a recent study that shows that this is very much so the case. The vast majority of people are not extremely on the right or extremely on the left. They're in the exhausted middle. And I think they would be so deeply attracted to a message of Jesus or about Jesus. That shows that we don't put politics into the foreground. We don't put partisanship into the foreground. We put him into the foreground and he teaches us how to love one another in a way that no One else can.

I love that. One of the lines in the book that stood out and I love this is, you should. And I'm paraphrasing this. This might not be an exact quote, but you said we should be more comfortable around people who share our faith than around those who share our politics. And I just. It was a reminder to me that, yeah, the body of Christ is beautifully diverse in so many ways, and we should agree on the main things about the truth of Scripture and Jesus being our savior and those things that really define us as the body. But there's going to be diversity of thought around a lot of other things, and our love for one another should surpass all of those disagreements.

Yeah. Yeah. Someone got upset with me online because I was charitably interacting with a Marxist thinker, and they said, how could you say anything nice to a person like that? And my response to this individual was to say, hey, I hate to break it to you, but when we're resurrected, you'll be resurrected alongside some Marxist. They're gonna be there with you. And so I'm trying to figure out how I can, in the present, live like the future is true. That doesn't mean I'm not a relativist. I'm not saying that that means that every political idea is true or every political idea is equally valid. What I am trying to say is that if I can put what's most important into the foreground that we share in a resurrection, we share that we're both sinners who are broken and easily deceived. If I'm willing to listen to someone and understand that perspective on this political issue comes out of their story, their experiences, I might not come to agree with them, but I might more fully understand them. And I'll be the first to say, part of loving someone is understanding someone. There's nothing that makes you feel more unloved than feeling misunderstood. And a great way to make someone feel misunderstood is by assuming the worst about them and refusing to listen to them when they're sharing about deeply held beliefs or ideas.

I so agree. You know, there's been a statement. I don't even know who originated this statement, but it always says, proximity changes things. And basically, like, when you do lean in and listen to someone's story, even if you don't agree, and, like, maybe you'll never agree on certain things, but you can at least show them respect, and you can at least show them love. And that's what I really hear you saying, Patrick. And I think that's so true. Just being willing to have a conversation and not group people just lump them all, you know, into one stereotype, because these are real people. You know, one thing our pastor of our church always says, our head pastor always says, you know, remember that every person walking by you is someone that Jesus loves. Like, it's someone who God created and someone who Jesus loves. And I think when we approach it as Christians from that standpoint, it does change things, and it really changes to our approach. But for some reason, it just. When. When we're having election time, people, you know, they. They just. They get really disgruntled. I mean, we're in Georgia, and it has been like, there's a huge Senate race, and it has been nasty, and you have seen. Just slinging, like, muds. I can't wait till it's over. Personally, we actually voted early. Just. We're like, let's just get this over with. But it's just. It's just been really nasty. And I. I don't know as a. And both. Both of these men profess to be Christians, too. So you have the Christian community divided, and it's just been really yuggy. Right, sweetie?

Yeah, it has. And I think, you know, bringing it back to marriage, I think that that has found its way not only into churches and into communities, but into. Into homes and into families.

Yes.

Where, you know, folks are dreading coming home at the end of the day and talking to their spouse because these issues are on the forefront, or they're dreading Thanksgiving in a few weeks where they're going to gather around the table with people who. Who think and vote differently than they do, and how that. That division is going to mark the event more so than. Than the celebration? So. So, Patrick, what would your wisdom be in those situations where it counts the most among our families, where we're most unfiltered and we're likely to say things that we might not share as openly out in public, but yet where unity matters the most. So what's your advice to those married couples listening right now? And they're like, we can't agree, and it's really hurting our marriage right now.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I always tell people we would love to be able to control others, but God didn't give us that ability. And the only person you get to control is yourself. And that means that when you walk into the Thanksgiving meal with family or the political conversation with your spouse, you have to realize you're not their holy spirit. You can't dictate to them what to do. You can only think about yourself. And so you have to have a vision for what kind of family you want to have, what kind of conversationalist you want to be. And you have to model for them the kind of behavior that you would like in return. And part of having a vision is just starting with this very basic thing. No one wants to be in a highly tribalized family that is miserable. I have a close friend who's a saint because she goes to family reunions I don't personally do. And not just that, she goes to her spouse's family reunions. And her spouse, they've had this family reunion with over 100 people for 37 years. That's how much this family loves each other and loves spending time with each other. But in 2016, I guess someone had too many Bush lights, and he starts loudly announcing that he's voting for Donald Trump, which leads to the opposite response from a different family member. I would never vote for Donald Trump. That's disgusting. And maybe the conversation would have ended there and everybody would have pretended that it never happened, except for Facebook, because his family has a Facebook group. And the argument continues online, and it begins to metastasize such that one of the family members has a wedding and doesn't invite people to the wedding who disagree with them on their politics. In a different instance, since there was a young dad about my age who died unexpectedly from cancer, people in his family boycotted his funeral because of who he voted for. And so just ask yourself if that's where tribalism ultimately leads. Is that the kind of family that you want to have? And if you care more about not having that kind of family, you can care less about winning the political debate. You've got something far bigger to win. I've got a family to win. I've got people to love and care for. And when you know that you're fighting for the family, that you're fighting for those that you love, you're fighting to preserve relationship. It totally reorients your behavior when you're in those kinds of conversations. Intense moments. I mean, me personally, I can only talk about weather and kids, sports so much, I get bored. I want to go deep. Let's go scuba diving together. Let's get into the deep stuff. Let's have that hard conversation. But the manner in which we have it really, really matters.

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So good. That's so good. Like we say, like what's happening in the White House, is it nearly as important as what's happening in your house as it relates to your family and your relationships? And so don't get those things way out of balance.

It's so true. I think where some families where this is a sticking point is they may actually agree maybe with their parents and in laws on certain things. But you know, as, you know, I think as people age, they just don't care. Like they want it to be known. Like they'll just say stuff that maybe you don't want your kids repeating in public. And I know a lot of families deal with this where they're like, yeah, I kind of, I'm pretty aligned with my, my family, so to speak, in my in law, but I don't want my kids going and repeating the things that my father in law is saying at school or that my dad, you know, or my mom said the other day at school, you know, what would you say to those people? Because I think that's also even if they do agree, the way that they're letting their beliefs be known isn't necessarily what people want.

Yeah, I mean, obviously again, you can't control what people say. I think if you have a family member who has a habit of speaking untactfully or unkindly about the opposite party or people who disagree with them, there's a time and place, especially with younger kids who you can't quite have a deep conversation with yet to say, hey, when you're around the kids, I know you're going to want to talk about this stuff. And just so you know, I have a lot of agreement with you. We're aligned. But I'm trying to train them in how to speak thoughtfully and kindly and charitably. And they won't be able to tell the difference between how we talk in our family setting versus how we're going to talk at the kindergarten playground. And so for their sake, would you mind maybe avoiding some of those topics? Or if you're going to talk about them, would you just be extra careful to show wisdom and tact?

Yes. I love that. So important.

That is good. It's good advice. Right there, guys. Moment to play that. Play that section back. You know, hit. Yes, hit rewind or whatever the back button is these days.

Yes, that's right.

And I mean, I think if you do it with respect, people will receive that because unless you're in a really dysfunctional family, Grandma really loves her grandkids, and Grandma doesn't want her grandkids to be little jerks on the playground. So Grandma's not going to be bothered when you say to her, hey, we're working on our words. Can you help us with that? Now she's a part of the team. She's got a vision for what you want for your kids. And by the way, it's exactly what she wants for them as well.

It's so true. I think, you know, I want to shift the conversation a little bit to people within a marriage where, you know, the wife thinks one way, the husband thinks another way, and they, you know, they're going to vote differently. Like, they're going to have completely different ballots and they can't seem to talk about it. It in, in a healthy way. What would you say to that couple?

Yeah, and I first would say, you, you are not alone. As a pastor, I meet with couples all the time who are having this exact battle. In fact, just the other day I had lunch with someone who said, hey, I read your book and I want to talk to you about it. And I'm expecting we're going to have a conversation about partisan politics and bigger things happening in the country. And very quickly he went to his marriage and he started sharing with me how him and his wife aren't in alignment on some pretty key issues, things like vaccines, for example. And he said, I don't. I don'. How to have these conversations. And I said to him what I said earlier, which is, well, you can only change you. And, you know, his issue when he would come into a conversation was that he would kind of try to rationalize and persuade away her fears about vaccines. And here's some data and information, and that didn't work with her. And so I said, you need to become a student of your wife. And if your wife. I don't know if you guys do the Enneagram, but she's a six on the Enneagram, so she's a protector. She loves security. She wants to feel safe. I said, if your wife desperately wants to feel safe, and that's why she's afraid of vaccines. Vaccines. You know what you need to do? You need to actually wade into her fear with her. You're afraid that if you. If you go there with her, that you ask her why she's afraid. What would happen if we went down this road. If you. If you walk down there, you think you're gonna go down the rabbit hole and you're never gonna get back out. But the truth is, if you'll go down that rabbit hole, if you'll ask her, okay, well, let's say we gave them a vaccine, and let's say they did die or these off, well, what would we do then? Well, what would we do then? Well, what would we do then? And what would happen in our family? And I told them, if you. One, she's going to feel really heard and cared for and valued. And two, eventually you'll start laughing because once you get to the bottom of fears, they always end up becoming kind of ridiculous. Because now all of a sudden, our marriage has broken apart and the world has ended and everything is. You just start laughing about it. You say, okay, I don't think that's actually going to happen. And that's the point at which you can come in and say, hey, these things are scary. Affirm it. Say, they are scary, aren't they? I don't know everything. And I could be wrong on this. And we're obviously going to have to make some conclusions in our decision, our children. But let's just remember the bigger story, which is that there is a king on the throne. And even if our kids die and even if our marriage ends and even if all these terrible things happen, you know what can't be taken away from us? The promise of resurrection. Life with him. And so we just got to cling to that together. Now, that doesn't necessarily resolve the issue, but you can tell what I'm focusing on. I'm less concerned with let's argue over vaccines, and I'm more concerned about, do you see this argument as an opportunity to Connect. And until you see it that way, you're going to have unproductive conversations.

It's so good.

Yeah, there's a ton of wisdom there. I mean, just a ton of wisdom and biblical, healthy, practical ways to deal with this, that we keep that eternal perspective. We remember what matters most, and we. We make sure that everybody feels heard. I mean, that's. That's huge. Just approaching it that way would save so many unnecessary hurt feelings, so many unnecessary arguments, arguments, potentially even unnecessary divorces that are happening when we allow these little things, these disagreements, to just become the wedge that we can't get around. So, yeah, Patrick, the way you've kind of given us a template and a roadmap for navigating those difficult but important conversations, and I do think there's that.

Element of becoming the student, because, I mean, fear is one thing. Other people are motivated by shame. And what do people think? Right. And so they're making a decision about their politics because, well, what if my friend knew that I voted for X? Or what if people knew that I supported this position? How would they respond to me? How would they treat me? And again, being able to go there with their spouses. Okay, let's talk about what that would be like to be on the outs with your coworkers because you have a different political perspective. How would that hurt? You know, how would that make you feel? Isolated? If you can go into these places of pain with people, I think you can diffuse the argument. Again, it's a very different thing than having the conversation itself, but I think that's where it starts. I think the second step is you have to figure out how to talk about the issue. But you can't talk about the issue until you get to the issue underneath the issue issue, right?

Yeah. Like, you know, we don't need to be dismissive to our spouse. Like, we always need to show respect. And I think that's kind of what I hear you saying is when you entertain being. Being willing to hear them out and being willing to. To talk about all the things and listen, you know, do more listening even than speaking, it just speaks volumes to, to not dismissing how they feel. Because that's what we see, like, even in the work we do with couples, even if it's not about politics. Just anytime a spouse feels like, like they're being made to feel smaller or being dismissed or even being made to feel stupid. Like, you know, a lot of times you. You see these spouses arguing because the other's like, why? I mean, you must be stupid if and they will use that. I know a lot of people are cringing because I'm saying that, but they'll. They'll say, you know, like, you must be stupid if you vote for that person. Like, you're one of those people now, or, or to see this issue that way. And it's just so hurtful because, I mean, that's your spouse. And, and. And it's. I think that it's like they're not, you know, they're just seeing it differently. It doesn't mean they're less intelligent than you. And we have to get that out of our head because we're allowing pride to take over. And, you know, just like the Bible talks all about pride, I mean, Dave always says it's like the soil where all other sin takes root. And we just don't want that to happen. And we can't allow politics to be that thing that is just, you know, allowing dismissiveness to just have free reign in our house.

Right. And unity doesn't mean uniformity. Yes. Like, you can be unified in marriage and still have different perspectives and different opinions, and that's fine. But, you know, another one of the great lines, Patrick, in your book was, as Christians, we should be known for what we're for more than what we're against.

Yes.

And I love that, not only in terms of policies and principles we're for, but in the people that we're for, that we should be able to look at our spouse and our family and say, listen, I am for you. Like, I love you. I am for you. I am for our marriage. I am for unity and joy and laughter in this home. And I'm more for that than I am for any, you know, political candidate or principal. And so, like, just keeping those things in perspective, I think will help guide the conversation in a healthier way.

Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Well, Patrick, this has been one of the most helpful conversations we've. We've hosted here. I'm so thankful for your ministry and, and for this book, Truth Over Tribe. And I encourage all of our listeners to go and get a copy and maybe just, you know, hand these out for Christmas to your family, and it might cause Christmas to go a little bit better. So especially those relatives that have a little too much Bush Light and then get on their soapbox, so give them a couple copies. This could really help so much. And I love, you know, Jesus said, blessed are the peacemakers. And I think that this book is going to help you have a roadmap for being a peacemaker within your family, while not compromising your principles, but still fighting for the principle of peace in your marriage and in your home. But before we go, Patrick, tell folks where they can stay connected to you and everything that you're doing. In addition to this great book.

Yeah. We have a podcast as well called Truth Over Tribe. We're not very creative people, so we name books, podcasts, all the exact same thing.

I love it.

And in that podcast, we. We do something slightly different. The book is really about what we're discussing right now, which is how can I be a non anxious presence in my family? How can I be the most kind person, the best listener, the one who's most willing to admit when I'm wrong, not just to model for my family, what kind of person I want them to be, but because I really think, even though it seems counterintuitive, that's the way to have real power in your relationship. I'm not saying power to control. I'm saying power to transform, to see your relationship get healthier over time. And that's at the heart of the book. So the book itself, it's available at every major bookseller, Amazon, all those places. Truth Over Tribe, the podcast, we talk a little more about cultural and political issues from a nonpartisan perspective that tries to keep Jesus in the foreground. So if you are interested in this kind of stuff, or maybe your spouse is, and you're thinking, gosh, I'd love for him or her to engage with some people who are talking about these things from a Christian perspective, but aren't tribalized, aren't polarized, aren't angry about things. They might really like this podcast if they're into that kind of thing. So I'd encourage you to check out the book, check out the podcast. And we love interacting with people online. So if you have questions, please reach out. And we always respond.

That's great, man. I love that. And if you reach out to Patrick, don't send him something like angry because you're representing the Naked Marriage podcast community. So don't be that guy. I got something for you, Pastor Patrick. And then they just. Especially if you've had several bush lights, it's gonna be the line, don't send your message.

Then here's the good news. I get a decent amount of angry emails, and I have to constantly remind myself that Jesus said, bless those who persecute you. So if you do it, I will pray for you. Yeah, that's my warning. You'll get some prayers and they won't be vindictive. Prayers so maybe you should do it. You gotta get prayer in the deal as well.

There you go.

There you go.

I love it. I love it. Patrick, you are a love light and a needed voice right now and I really appreciate you taking the time to share with us and for everybody that's listening right now all over the world. I know political issues are issues all over the world but specifically right now in this time for those in the United States where things are so divided, election coming up. Just pray and work for unity in your home and share this message. And Patrick spoke and other resources as well, especially in those strained relationships perhaps you have and I think it can make a big difference. So thanks again so much for listening. Patrick, thanks for the important work you are doing. Keep it up and we will hope to see all of you next time.